Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Tālam & Layam related topics
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Ranganator
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#176 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator » 01 Jan 2017, 21:17

Namaskaram to all. I am a new entrant to this forum. I learned mridangam for three years and have covered the basics of adi, Rupali and Misra chaps talas in the process. Sri Mannarkoil Balaji's posts have been very helpful in my understanding of korvais.
This was the korvai I was taught in adi talam:
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Tha ki ta thom (1 1/2 avarthanam)
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom||thith
Each round of this korvai lasts for two avarthanams. Could someone please explain the classification of this into poorvanga, madhyanga and Uttaranga and the mathematics of the same?
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Ranganator
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#177 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator » 01 Jan 2017, 21:18

Sorry, that was a typo. Rupaka not Rupali.
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mridhangam
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#178 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 11 Mar 2017, 08:28

Sir

The Korvai mentioned by you does not fall under "Lakshana" korvais discussed here. That one comes under the category of "lakshya korvais" and hence it is not possible to split the purvanga and utharanga.

Probably thaki ta thom tha dhi gi na thom, tha dhi gina thom , tha dhi gi na thom could be taken as a utharanga and the preceding portion could be taken as a purvanga.

J Balaji
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vasanthakokilam
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#179 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by vasanthakokilam » 12 Mar 2017, 06:48

The resurrection of this thread prompted me to find the mp3 files that Sri. Balaji provided and uploaded them to Google Drive.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

The file name has the number of the post where that Korvai snippet was transcribed. Unfortunately the post numbers are not displayed. When I have time, I will provide the mapping of files to posts and even better place the link to individual mp3 in the respective posts. Feel free to beat me to it if you have the time, motivation and energy ( I can edit the posts easily if I have the mapping of mp3s to posts )
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Ranganator
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#180 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator » 22 Mar 2017, 13:11

Thanks sir. But what is the difference between Lakshana korvais and lakshya korvais?
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shankarank
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#181 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 29 May 2017, 09:23

Ranganator wrote:
01 Jan 2017, 21:17
Tha ki ta thom (1 1/2 avarthanam)
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom||thith
if "Tha ki ta thom" starts at 1-1/2 - are the last three "Tha thi gi na thom" in tiSram?
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Ranganator
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#182 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator » 29 May 2017, 21:29

'Tha ki ta thom' ends with the laghu of the second avarthanam. 'Tha thi gi na thom' x 3 is basically 16=1+3*5.
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Rohith
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#183 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Rohith » 15 Apr 2018, 16:03

What about samam to idam korvais especially for idam like 1/4 for rupakam(2 thalli)
Also mishra korvais and korvais in thisram,khandam etc
And korvais with combination of melkalam tharam etc

Ps: i am huge fan of mannarkoil balaji sir and this is my first post in rasikas forum
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mridhangam
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#184 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 10 Aug 2018, 09:26

Rohith wrote:
15 Apr 2018, 16:03
What about samam to idam korvais especially for idam like 1/4 for rupakam(2 thalli)
Also mishra korvais and korvais in thisram,khandam etc
And korvais with combination of melkalam tharam etc

Ps: i am huge fan of mannarkoil balaji sir and this is my first post in rasikas forum
There is an idea for this ...if you make a korvai for 70 matras or 17-1/2 aksharas (matras are taken as 4 units per beat and aksharas are taken as one beat count) and render first two times in Khanda gati and then render it in catusram the korvai you make will come from samam to 2/12 place.

Mannarkoil Balaji
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mridhangam
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#185 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 10 Aug 2018, 09:43

Ranganator wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 13:11
Thanks sir. But what is the difference between Lakshana korvais and lakshya korvais?
Lakshana Korvais mean that the structure of purvanga and utharanga are mathematically correct and follow a logical order. For example 5(4) 5(4) 5(4) as a definite purvanga and 7(8)7(8)7 as a definite utharanga follows a mathematically correct order and hence could be a lakshana korvai.

Lakshya means aesthetically and artistically brilliant but mathematically not following any order.
8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...

This is a practical definition. do not quote this in any books or citations.

Mannarkoil Balaji
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kannangn
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#186 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by kannangn » 02 Nov 2018, 18:48

I have recently joined this forum.
Being a Mridangam student & artist , this particular thread has initially attracted me to this forum.
Hats off to Sri Balaji for his outstanding service to this community. For me ,it has served like a manual for
my preparation for a long awaited re-entry to performing for concerts , after several years of lay back.

This forum , rasikas.org portal are truly inspiring!!!

Hope , one day I will be able to return something substantially to this community.
Till then I do happily sit back and enjoy the brilliance of masters like Sri Balaji.

Thanks & Regards

Kannan Govindan
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shankarank
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#187 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 04 Nov 2018, 22:32

mridhangam wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 09:43
8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...
But from a meta-physical angle, this is not a violation of Math, as the tinkering is done in silence ( pun intended ;) ). Tinkering is possible only because there is a definite Math in there to begin with. It is to be taken as transcending grammar to attain a lakshya and not deliberately protesting against the grammatical order , as leftists would have it :D . The former is truly an Indic perspective!

The 3 is the all familar "taangu" I gather or if you are shifting to a triSra naDai - "tongu" !

And would you be kind enough to share the pazhani lakshya kORvai , something I have heard , but forgot what it is.
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shankarank
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#188 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 04 Nov 2018, 23:29

Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:

7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5

where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.

13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.

The reckoning of the last kArvai as (3) is done to get around the prime divisibility issue arising from 33 & 31 - where 31 does not afford the 30 & 1 division for any correct execution of a pattern thrice. Mathematically correct uttaranga will require a 31 = 27 +4 -> 9(2)9(2)9. But why give up an opportunity for the nearest divisible multiple of 3 - i.e. 30, if it can be handled with an artistic sleight of hand!?

So Math is somewhat very much in play! :geek: 8-)
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Christian Kenit Ram
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#189 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 11 Nov 2018, 03:17

I have some doubts about constructing permutations in a specific Korvai .
The normal way would of course be to repeat it 3 times without any change , but I have heard the technique that involves rendering the korvai differently for each of the 3 rounds . ( I have heard it for longer , more complicated korvais , but not for the simple , short ones -- hence my question )

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - - ta - din | - gi na tom ta - | din - gi na tom ta | - din - gi na tom || ( Tishra Gati for the 2nd half cycle - 24 instead of 16 matras )

The 2nd round is actually the original famous korvai , whereas I have tried to do my own permutations for the 1st and 3rd rounds :

In the 1st round I have used 1 kaarvai instead of 2 for the purvanga , between the phrases . While calculating for the uttaranga I came upon the formula 3 x tadin-ginatom with 1 kaarvai in between the phrases ( 18 + 2 = 20 ) . I don´t remember having heard it before in Adi Talam and don´t know if it´s usual or if it sounds strange ...

In the 3rd round I have used 3 kaarvais instead of 2 for the purvanga .
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available , so I decided to go into tishra Gati , because I don´t know a correct way of fitting 3 Tadiginatoms into 14 aksharas in chatushra Gati . ( Manjunath BC and Somashekar Jois sometimes use change of gati in Korvais . They are among the people that have sparked this curiosity in me ) . I don´t know if it´s correct to use the change of gati only for 2nd half of the 3rd round and if doing tadiginatoms starting 2 matras after the 5th akshara is acceptable in Adi Talam .

Thanks in advance .
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shankarank
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#190 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 12 Nov 2018, 06:09

If uttaranga is modified as :

takadhimi-tom,,(7)ta-takadhimitom,(7)kiTa-takadhimi(6) - 20

tadhimi-tom,,(6)takadhimitom,(6)ta-takadhimi(5) - 17

dhimi-tom,,(5)tadhimi-tom,(5)takadhimi(4) - 14

And doing it in reverse order may have better effect in this case.


that might pass for a similarity in reduction - preserving the takadhimi in all 3 in some form - giving a 3 to add to pURvAnga everytime.

Otherwise what you suggested - I don't know if it passes for convention, but that is the tongifying in mid air as you have one kARvai preceding a silent trISra conversion. You do have one kriya in the second 7 anchoring on a beat i.e dhin - might help grab the tALAM correctly.

You might just reduce the last kArvai to 3 from 4 and do a tadhiginatom(5) thrice as well!
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