Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
VK RAMAN
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#76 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VK RAMAN »

I wrote the following to Saregama through their official website feedback page:

I received the following message from Youtube that I violated your copy rights:

After reviewing your dispute, saregama has decided that their copyright claim is still valid.
Video title: Na Mein Dharmi Na Hi Adharmi Na Mein Jati Na Kaami Ho - kabirdas - VK Raman
Copyrighted song: Na Main Dharmi Na Hi Adharmi
Claimed by: saregama
Why this can happen
• The copyright owner might disagree with your dispute.
• The reason you gave for disputing the claim may have been insufficient or invalid.
After reviewing your dispute, saregama has decided that their copyright claim is still valid.
Video title: beet gaye din bhajan bina re - Sant Kabir
Copyrighted song: Beet Gaye Din Bhajan Bina Re
Claimed by: saregama

Why this can happen
• The copyright owner might disagree with your dispute.
• The reason you gave for disputing the claim may have been insufficient or invalid.
After reviewing your dispute, saregama has decided that their copyright claim is still valid.
Video title: jasoda hari paalane jhulawe - Surdas - vkraman
Copyrighted song: Jasoda Hari Palne Jhulawe
Claimed by: saregama
Why this can happen
• The copyright owner might disagree with your dispute.
• The reason you gave for disputing the claim may have been insufficient or invalid.
I am an independent singer and I use sruthibox and my voice in singing Surdas, Kabirdas, tulsidas, tyagaraja, etc etc and I have up loaded 910 plus videos on youtube. I am 71 years old and why should I be put on hold on my own recording. I have attached any of your videos or audios. All I have done is to use public domain materials and sing in my own way to popularize hindu devotional songs. I request you to waive your right to copyright songs that I have videoed and uploaded on youtube. Thanks for your help.

VK RAMAN
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#77 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VK RAMAN »

Hariguna gavat naachungi - meerA bhajan Saregama claiming copy right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC5fPjVEWxk

VK RAMAN
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#78 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VK RAMAN »

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "hariharaputram shAstAram sadA bhajEham - Dikshitar - Vasantham - VK Raman"

copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "enta vEDukondu - tyagaraja - VK Raman"

copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "agrE pasyAmi thEjO - maargazhith thingaL madhi niRaindha nannaaLaal - VK Raman"

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "gajavadana karuNA sadana shankara bAlA lambOdara sundara - VK Raman"

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "ennEramum un nAmam Raga: pUrvikalyANi / Tala: mishra cApu -- Shyama Sastri"

Saregama is getting there and we see the light

VK RAMAN
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#79 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VK RAMAN »

SaReGaMa has finally released their claim for all disputed renditions:

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "hariguNa gAvat - meera bhajan - hansAnandi - VK Raman"

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "PREMA MUDITA MANASE KAHO, RAAMA RAAMA RAAM"

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "Shriramachandra kripalu bhaju man haran bhavabhai darunam - VK Raman"

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "Chalo man Ganga Jamuna teer - meera bhai - VK Raman"

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "baso mere nainan mein nandlal - VK Raman"

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "mErE giridara gOpala"

the copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "tU dayAlu dIn haun-tU dAni haun bhikhArI - Tulsidas - VK Raman"

copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "kaiththala niRaikani appamodu avalpori kappiya karimugan - arunagirinadhar - VK RAMAN"

copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "KAITHTHALA NIRAI KANI - thirupughazh"

copyright claim on your YouTube video has now been released by saregama.
Video title: "Kanaka sabhapathikku, namaskaram pannadi penne - VK Raman"

Thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions to tide over this.

vasanthakokilam
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#80 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks VKRaman for the update. So it looks like our hypothesis about the underlying causes with Google algorithm's false positives being the main one seems to be holding up.

There are still a few questions that are unresolved in my mind but that is for another day.

Nick H
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#81 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by Nick H »

VK RAMAN wrote:SaReGaMa has finally released their claim for all disputed renditions:
Congratulations, but how much better if they had never caused you all this stress. Suing them for causing "mental anguish" would be nice, but we all know, worldwide, that suits are never to the advantage of the small guy because the big guy has all the lawyers in the world, all the time in the world to drag it out and exhaust the cash of the small guy, and all the patience in the world. It's not fair!

Hmmm... I wonder if Mr Traffic Ramaswamy has any interest in copyright?

Or Subramanian Swamy? :-?

vasanthakokilam
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#82 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nick, I was also thinking in that direction. There has to be some law that considers someone claiming your property as theirs as (at least) a misdemeanor. Especially if they do it consistently. Some tactic like that will also make Google take notice since they are co-conspirators in this. I do not think they have looked at the other side of the legal liability seriously enough.

VijayR
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#83 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VijayR »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Nick, I was also thinking in that direction. There has to be some law that considers someone claiming your property as theirs as (at least) a misdemeanor. Especially if they do it consistently. Some tactic like that will also make Google take notice since they are co-conspirators in this. I do not think they have looked at the other side of the legal liability seriously enough.
Wishful thinking, fellas... Go read the "Terms of Service" for YouTube carefully, in particular the "Limitation of Liabilities" and "Indemnity" sections. By using the service, you have agreed to those... This is the standard con that most websites resort to. Anything that falls into the grey area gets dumped in the terms of service, which you have to agree to if you want to use the site and service.

Nick H
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#84 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by Nick H »

VK, about that law, I have no idea. I long-since learnt that the people who say, "I know my rights," usually don't, and the people who make assumptions about what they consider to be right, logical, obvious, etc, in law, are also often wrong. To find out, we have to go to the law itself.

VijarR, I suspect (but see para 1, which means I'm probably wrong!) that no action would be possible against Youtube, but that it might be possible against SaReGaMa/etc. Unless the Youtube TOS protects third parties too. And, if it does, would that be an unfair contract term. And which country's law are we looking at anyway?

From the moral/ethical standpoint, it seems utterly wrong that SaReGaMa is walking over people like VK Raman in this way. It is no fun being an activist, though. I'm sure VK Raman would rather spend time singing.

VijayR
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#85 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VijayR »

Nick H wrote: ...
VijarR, I suspect (but see para 1, which means I'm probably wrong!) that no action would be possible against Youtube, but that it might be possible against SaReGaMa/etc. Unless the Youtube TOS protects third parties too. And, if it does, would that be an unfair contract term. And which country's law are we looking at anyway?
...
Spot on... My response was only meant for the part from VK's post that talked about Google taking notice since they are a co-conspirator. YouTube and Google are not the people to go after here... It is, as you correctly put it, SaReGaMa and the music labels who claim copyright. As far as YouTube is concerned, it will be US laws that apply (that is listed in the Terms of Use too).

vasanthakokilam
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#86 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay, Nick: Yes, understood. My main goal is to have Google come out and openly discuss what is going on. So it is mostly for discovery ;) What annoys me is that the whole internet (!) is up and arms about this but Google is silent for the most part.

The labels are the initial target of such law suits. That is in spite of the fact that I am reasonably sure now that at least in the cases like VKR's, they have lost control of the situation. Google flags the videos and the labels have to sort out which ones are true positives and which ones are false positives. But they are the immediate counter-party.

I am sure the labels' initial counter will be 'hey, this is not our doing. It is Google's algorithm. Look we have released the false positives'. But the fact remains that for a period of time they claimed through Google that VKR's property is theirs. I am hoping that as part of the discovery process, Google will be dragged into this. I know this is all wishful thinking but if this somehow gets the class action status, things can get interesting.

Nick H
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#87 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by Nick H »

That is in spite of the fact that I am reasonably sure now that at least in the cases like VKR's, they have lost control of the situation.
I don't think so, because... it is the music labels that provide the data against which the matches are made.
'hey, this is not our doing. It is Google's algorithm. Look we have released the false positives'
But I suppose they have to protect their legitimate interests in their own recordings. Maybe I just cancelled out my previous statement! :)
I know this is all wishful thinking but if this somehow gets the class action status, things can get interesting.
I don't think that India has "class" actions? But we have this thing called PIL, and this is certainly of "Public Interest."

So, we await the coming of a Copyright Ramaswamy. I'm not volunteering, and I don't blame anybody else for not volunteering.

VK RAMAN
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#88 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VK RAMAN »

My appeal to youtube was originally rejected by Saregama; but I wrote to Saregama directly through their website and as a result:

saregama has just released their copyright claim on your YouTube video.

Video title: "Na Mein Dharmi Na Hi Adharmi Na Mein Jati Na Kaami Ho - kabirdas - VK Raman"

VK RAMAN
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#89 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VK RAMAN »

Is copyright protection internationally enforceable, if the place of occurrence of copy right violation is in another Country. It seems saregama does like what youtube - google is doing in filtering various audio/videos by content, title, etc.

vasanthakokilam
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#90 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nick H wrote: - I don't think so, because... it is the music labels that provide the data against which the matches are made.
Nick, as you wrote later, they have to protect their legitimate recordings and they submit the music signature of those recordings to Google. I do not think that is evil or anything. The problem is with the work flow involved in dealing with these false positives.

Nick H
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#91 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by Nick H »

Yes, I see that. I think you've been saying it for some time... but I only just got the point <Blush>

VK RAMAN
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#92 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VK RAMAN »

Consequent on my writing to Saregama directly the following were released today by Saregama.

"Mangal Murti Maruti Nandan, Sakal Amangal Mool Nikandan"
good news! saregama has just released their copyright claim on your YouTube video.

Video title: "PREMA MUDITA MANASE KAHO, RAAMA RAAMA RAAM"
good news! saregama has just released their copyright claim on your YouTube video.

Good news! saregama has just released their copyright claim on your YouTube video.
Video title: "jasoda hari paalane jhulawe - Surdas - vkraman"
good news! saregama has just released their copyright claim on your YouTube video.
Video title: "beet gaye din bhajan bina re - Sant Kabir"

Nick H
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#93 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by Nick H »

Good news! ...
Is this what Google/Youtube say? Apologies would be more appropriate.

I loathe this management-spin talk which has nothing to do with reality.

VK RAMAN
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#94 Re: Copyright shocker by SaReGaMa on my renditions

Post by VK RAMAN »

After reviewing your dispute, Saregama Publishing and One or more music publishing rights collecting societies has decided to release their copyright claim on your YouTube video. However, there may be additional copyright claims on this video.

Video title: nArAyaNam bhajE nArAyaNam - Bhadrachala Ramadasu kirtan - VK Raman - saranga

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