TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Review the latest concerts you have listened to.
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mahavishnu
Posts: 3341
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by mahavishnu »

Vidwan TM Krishna has been performing to large audiences across America and we have heard (and are still hearing) from some of our eminent forumites in Chicago, Houston, NJ, DC and elsewhere. Krishna performed to an audience of about a thousand people in the San Francisco bay area, an event that had many waiting with earnest curiosity.

By now we all know the drill. Krishna is a professional maverick. As he himself admits to, these are not kutcheris but spontaneous creations: flights of musical fancy that he and his team assemble on the fly depending on the moment.

I am not in judgment of Krishna's music, his "freedom-from-the-known" Krishnamurthi-isms, his almost abrasive personality or even his irreverence. In fact, I find all of these qualities quite amusing and perhaps even endearing. If I sat down in the same room as him, we would probably agree on many things. So, my words are not to be taken as a critique of Krishna as a musician or even his style of performance art. I also think very highly of his talent, his wonderful vocal prowess with a range that can go down to the lower shadjam with the kind of fidelity and timbre that could make a cellist's A string feel envy.

All that said, I walked away from the concert somewhat disappointed. I was waiting for the A-hA moment, but somehow it never came. There were a few genuinely wonderful musical ideas buried here and there, but they seemed obscured by his brand of surrealism and the random juxtaposition of musical ideas that seemed to create more entropy than he perhaps intended to.

None of the concert's spirit can be captured by cataloging what he sang. But here is a list, just for reference.

Paiyyada paimida- nadanamakriya - madhyama sruti (NS)
vanita rO ee vanne lEla - jAvaLi - anandha bhairavi - dAsu sreerAmulu (S)
jayantasENA - rAgam - TMK
jayantasEnA - tAnam - RKSK
bhairavi - rAgam - RKSK
bhairavi - tAnam - TMK
manavinAla kim - naLinakAnti - T (N @ ghanuDaina shrI rAmacandruni)
sankarabharanam - alapanai + sri kamalambikayA kaTAkshitOham (MD)
dwijAvanti - cEtasri bAlakrishnam - RKSK (violin solo)
dhanyAsi - alapanai (without violin accompaniment TMK)
tani - khanda triputa (misra nadai)
mOhanam - brief rAgam + tAnam
kahAn kE pathik kahAn - tulsi dAs bhajan
ragam- tAnam - kAnada - neranammiti (double speed)
Orajupuchu - kannaDa gowLa
vAdinEn vAdi - thirumangal AzhwAr pAsuram.
mAnava janma doDDadu - pUrvikalyANi
mangaLam kOsalEndrAya (sung in pUrvikalyANi).

Krishna started the concert in Madhyama sruti with a padam, which must be a first. This was followed by the less frequently heard jAvali in Ananda bhairavi. As he began his short raga sketch, I found that in the lower part of the octave, he might have well transgressed into rItigowla territory. Similarly, when he started singing Mohanam later in the evening, it felt that he might have hit a few bilahari notes. Perhaps these were both early ideas as they brewed into this decision about which way to go, but they made me a tad uncomfortable.

The lack of the build-up of significant momentum from the development of many ideas made me feel like having started with a very good apéro but somehow having the course end right there.

The best moments of the concert were during his sankarabharanam, Sriram's dvijAvanti and his absolutely superb rendition of manavinAla in naLiNakAnti. I believe Krishna really excels at singing this song and his choice of kAlapramANam (faster than his usual speed) felt just right. I think the way he sings the charanam lines "kani mAnav(A)vatAruDai" gives me goosebumps every time and today was no different.

There were several times during the concert when Krishna would feel this sense of "uNarchi vasam"; almost solipsistically trapped in his own feelings. I take them to be genuine and I can see that he is really enjoying the music he seems to be engaged in. I can feel his angst, well almost.

He even gave a little speech in the end, almost reprimanding people for not seeing the world the way he sees it. He was not trying to be "unpredictable", he said dismissively. He also said that he was tired of being portrayed this way over the last 3+ weeks (perhaps here in this forum and elsewhere).

My thoughts on this. I have no problem with his taking on the century-old "kutcheri" system. While he is at it, I also wish he could go after all the caste voodoo, misogyny, bigotry and all else that should rightfully be booted out of the system.

But if you are going to replace the kutcheri with something, a whole lot more thought needs to go into the alternative. Carnatic music has certainly evolved over the centuries and who knows which way it will go in another couple of hundred years. But if you are looking for a structured paradigm shift, it requires more than a "shuffle" function; as spontaneous and genuine as it may be. This form of music builds on ideas and their development in context. Again, I am not judging this concert format. My comments are just about his music itself.

I wish Krishna success in these experiments, but he should perhaps take his audiences on a gentler ride than what he has in place now.

Sriram Kumar played incredibly well. His bowing matched Krishna's voice perfectly and his accompaniment to the tAnam in mOhanam in the lower stAyi was probably one of the highlights of the evening for me.

KAP: Well, there are people who love him and people who don't love him so much, to put it mildly :) I am probably in the latter category. "Nalla kai", as any seasoned lover of the pazhani school would tell you. But somehow I find his playing to be consummately lackadaisical and bordering on nihilism (not minimalism).

I also take strong exception, whatever spontaneity there might be, to having a tani constructed without the framework of a kriti. Having said that, I must confess that KAP played a good tani today and explored some interesting nadai variations, which is more than I have seen him do in the recent past. And please. No more comparisons to Ramabadhran sir. That is just not right.

At the end of the day, I felt that I heard some good music but went home wanting to listen to a "kutcheri", however you define that term.

P.S: Props to Sankritilaya for managing an event of this scale, probably one of the largest concerts in N.America this year. Very civilized arrangements for parking, ticketing, queuing etc. I also had the pleasure of seeing Sindhuja, Gadolinium and ManiSubramaniyan just after the event. I hope we can get to hear their opinions as well :)
Last edited by mahavishnu on 27 Oct 2014, 14:24, edited 1 time in total.

munirao2001
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by munirao2001 »

Task or even challenge to the rasika in listening TMK is to being alive to the creative moments and times, in freedom from the past and the future. Its worth to be judged only in the realization of the excellence in quality of music in his creative forays. If the quality of music of the day/time/moment is not excellent, it may not justify the state of preparedness to receive the music by the discerning listener. This is my opinion.

It is also true that element of unpredictability excites, even above average quality in music is received as highly creative, it serves the listeners seeking change, a change of break from the past as very character! Is TMK serving the listeners in great numbers looking for the pattern in unpredictability excitement to receive the support, in continuum? TMK's further progress as a consummate artist will only give the right answer to my inquiry.

munirao2001

chandru1
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Joined: 27 Oct 2014, 12:08

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by chandru1 »

I agree with everything you said, especially the line about how a change to the concert structure should be accompanied by more thought.

As a relative newcomer to the Carnatic music scene, I did not find the concert that jarring. I enjoyed some of his unorthodox moves, such as moving the varnam to later in the song. However, the many songs/RTP that had a raga but no kriti had a sort of unfinished feeling.

All in all, it was a very enjoyable concert, and made me think about what I expect out of a kacheri and what happens when those expectations are challenged.

bombal
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Joined: 21 Sep 2014, 22:54

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by bombal »

according to me you are an avatAra of MAHAVISHNU, as far as clear writing and reviewing goes...learnt a lot thanks

keep it up and god bless you

:namaste:

gardabha_gana
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Joined: 24 Dec 2006, 07:44

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by gardabha_gana »

mahavishnu - I can relate to how you feel. I am looking forward to the TMK in 2004 who sang Neranamitti - Giripai - Sree Rajagopala - Sankarabharanam RTP - in that order (varnam, sub-sub-main, sub-main, main) - for SIFA 25 in the bay area. Hope the wheel comes a full circle one of these days.....

That said, it must be a delight to hear Paiyyada.... no one sings it these days. Brinda's rendition is my gold standard.

Sindhuja
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Sindhuja »

Having read and heard so much about his recent kutcheris (oops, "performances"? "presentations"? "musical experiences shared with an audience"?) I was very excited about hearing him today. It was my first time witnessing "TMK 2.0" if you will. There were several moving moments and the Nadanamakriya will stay with me for a long time. But; I too left with mixed feelings. Not because of the format, but because I felt a certain lack of depth. It's going to be hard to articulate this but let me try. While the Shankarabharanam was beautiful, and the Nadanamakriya and Purvikalyani extremely soulful and moving, I felt that not only is TMK steering away from the regular concert format, but also from the way in which core elements such as ragam and thanam are sung. Often, he would start a ragam with what would seem like a casual humming. That would be followed by short phrases interspersed with pauses. I felt that his singing today was oddly, unhurried yet restless. I was yearning for long kArvais/ longer phrases in the ragams- which would give a certain "pidippu" or stability. But I sensed a "chanchalam" ("restlessness" doesn't cut it). The Kaanada ragam to me was the most fulfilling although short. (And I was half-expecting him to sing Neranammiti. TMK would be glad to hear that he was predictable.) And while it was amazing how low he could go, I didn't really see the point of singing an entire thanam (Mohanam) confined to the lower madhya and mandara (and anu mandara?) sthayis. May be there was no point. But I tried "completing" the thanam in my mind, imagining his voice traversing the high notes with equal grace and deftness.
Anyway, more on depth - I don't have qualms about singing multiple standalone thanams and ragams per se, but it got me wondering if doing that can cost depth and elaboration. (I have a similar problem with certain long ragamalikas where you don't get to experience any single ragam "fully". But at least with those, there's lyrics.) We've probably been conditioned to look at ragam and thanam as elaborate pieces (or at least parts of a bigger, elaborate piece) and so again, I was wondering about the point of a short-ish Jayantasena thanam. (I didn't time it though - may be it was the length of a standard thanam and I'm mistaken? It didn't feel like that though.) Again, may be there was no point. But I think that when all you're doing is improvisation - by singing just a ragam/ thanam, with NO constraint whatsoever (no krithi to follow, so no structural constraints, etc.) it can be treated reasonably elaborately. If you're singing a krithi in Jayantasena, well, it can only last as long as the song lasts. But not so with a full free-rein ragam/ thanam. I'd have loved to see him explore the depths of ragas. May be that's a reason an RTP makes sense? You've three horses collectively pulling the carriage... Not that any one of them can't do it singlehandedly but I just didn't feel TMK was doing it today with a ragam/ thanam :(

I was amused to see TMK almost admonishing people for calling him unpredictable. It was funny - agreed that he doesn't do any of this with the aim of being unpredictable, we fully get that, but it's still a fact that he is unpredictable for the audiences. Because we still live in a world where the standard concert format dominates. Being unpredictable is very different from aiming to be unpredictable. With TMK the former's true, latter may not be :)

Anyway, I should say again that the Paiyyada was one of the most beautiful renditions I have heard. Although starting off with madhyama shruti was a bit unsettling, it was a serene experience. Immensely enjoyed Manavinalakim as well. Nalinakanthi is a favorite and I was very thrilled, especially about the pace (faster than his usual, but slower than "the" usual). TMK's voice was in fine form (although I felt he was excessively softening it in the highs). RKSK's playing was superlative and thanks to TMK we got to hear a lot of him - Chetasri was outstanding. KAP has mastered the art of playing for brand TMK - completely underplayed during TMK's quiet moments, and nicely supported during his spirited moments (like in manavinAla). Enjoyed the thani too.

Overall, thought-provoking experience and there's always a lot to take away from the man. Already looking forward to his next concert. I have vociferously argued with friends in favor of his experiments and views and will continue to do so since I still don't have any principled disagreements. It's going to be really interesting to see where his journey takes him in the next 5-10 years.
@mahavishnu: very nice seeing you! :) and pleasure reading your review, as always.
Last edited by Sindhuja on 28 Oct 2014, 07:03, edited 1 time in total.

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by rajeshnat »

mahavishnu and sindhuja
Thank you both along with ranganayaki for writing reviews in such an eloquent fashion. How long was the total concert?

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 08:33

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

Mahavishnu/Sinduja: Brilliant,informative,"no-holds-barred" recap(I dare not say review!!!).

I wish TMK sycophants in the forum -- close enough to him--would share these reviews--which in my opinion are unbiased,"malice-free" and a kmowledgeble conduit for feedback. I for one do not deny his passion or conviction or sincerity. Inasmuchas the "traditional" concert structure has lasted for almost 100 years and still current,it remains to be seen whether this concert structure stands the test of time. There have been many a convention in CM history "flouted"(according to the norms prevalent then) but subsequently have become "par' for the course either by many other musicians following it or widespead support/clamoring from rasikas!!

Posterity will decide!!!

As an aside, I just attended Gayathri V's concert(will try to post a recap later)--could not stay for the full length of the concert..She sang conventional age-old,vintage ragas and krithis but these seemed new and invigorating without feeling boredom or repetitiveness.Sometimes I wonder--given the Trinity's wonderful compositions in the Gana ragas(harikambodhi,karaharapiya etc) with each krithi offering a different dimension to the same raga--learning these krithis gives one a wide scope for Alapana and swaraprastharm and by separating the Raga from the kriti or rendering the kriti itself piece-meal(sans Charanam or Anupallavi--which I expect to be the "next" revolution in TMK fashion!!!), "robs' us of a fuller enjoyment. Again I am ambivalent on this score!!!(Point: I did not find anything wanting or missing in Gayathri V's conventional rendering but at the same time I believe TMK's exhortation to all of us to 'sit and enjoy" the musical experience he is savoring and wants us to share alongside notwithstanding our "incurable' laments about the experience not being complete or "could-have-been-better" feeling!!!

I again remind myself of GNB's admonition to me when I was young--he would say when I sing Sarasasamadhana dont sit there imagining how MMI or SSI would have sung that piece(in those days this was one of the rare pieces that leading musicians also sang--otherwise they would stay away from krithis that may have been made popular by one artiste over the other ).

Summing up I feel just as I went to Mali or TNR's concert with trepidations,expectations and came away partly frustrated and partly enthralled,I need to adopt the same attitude when I attend TMK's concerts!!

Jigyaasa
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Jigyaasa »

mahavishnu wrote: manavinAla kim
manavi AlakincharAdaTE

http://sahityam.net/w/index.php?title=Manavyala_kincha

#mostbutcheredsongnames

sankark
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by sankark »

Totally unrelated to the presentation in question, what is the sandhi rules for manavi + AlakincharAdaTE - is it manavinAla or manaviyAla or manavyAla? In tamizh, I would say it is the second one and while singing fast it becomes 3rd?

bhakthim dehi
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Mahavishnu
Was there any sancharam beyond mandra ni in Anandhabhairavi ragam?

hamsadhwani
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by hamsadhwani »

While I am in no way qualified to "review" anyone's concert, I do have to agree with the reviewers above of feeling a tad unsatisfied at the end of the concert. I related it to feeling like going to a South Indian wedding, expecting a good vazhai elai saapadu but ending up with a lot of paneer, biriyani, masala food buffet style, albeit very tasty!

Like Sindhuja, this is my first time listening to the "evovled" TMK as well... individually each piece he sang was beautiful, but it felt like I was listening to a randomized playlist.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Mahavishnu and Sindhuja for sharing your experiences of the TMK musical event! Very well written indeed, expressing rather a complex experience which is not amenable to a black or white characterization.

>dhanyAsi - alapanai (without violin accompaniment TMK)

I would like to experience it. Sometimes the violin can distract from focussing on the vocalist's build up even when the violin actually enhances it. Sriramkumar is indeed great on doing it right but it will be interesting how good TMK's alapana was without any violin enhancement.

BTW, how did he indicate that to Sriramkumar? Just curious.

I think I relate to the feelings you all experienced. One thing TMK should understand is, most of this reaction is not intellectual, it is about how the music was perceived at that time by the rasikas. A live event ( concert or otherwise ) is unique just for that reason, otherwise we can always listen to the studio recordings that are made in sanitized environments.

There is another aspect here. That is the 'shared context' of his musical event that is in its nascent stages. Just like a how a comedian needs a shared context among his audience for his jokes to work, such a shared context does exist in live concerts also ( in a different form of course ). The current format had almost 100 years to develop that context and may be in a few years such context will develop with him in a symbiotic manner. Built in expectations is only one part of such a shared-context. The ability to connect with him on what he is trying to do musically and aesthetically is a subtler aspect of this shared context which will take time. We will see how and when it develops.

On TMK's admonitions, as Sinduja opined, it just does not matter whether he intended it to be unpredictable or not. We can not read his mind. I can see why he is fighting that since he does not want to be known as unpredictable which can be construed as eccentric! Having said that, the unpredictability of the output from him as experienced by rasikas is there whether he intended it or not. It is there by definition. In my books, unpredictability is a good thing. One legitimate complaint he can have is that he is trying for something higher and if unpredictability is a side effect, he can feel that we are focussing on the wrong thing. I think there is some merit to it, if indeed that is what he is getting at.

MKR, sycophant is probably a strong term but even if we use a lower intensity term like fans or fanatics, our forum members have been more or less uniformly critical of him in the past couple of years, may be his fans choose to remain silent. I would say this concert tour of his is a turning point for us that we get to discuss many dimensions of his music. In this packed schedule with 2 or 3 concerts every weekend, given one concert is not the same as the other, there is a lot of room for discussion, dissection, agreement/disagreement etc. It is rather unique in that respect. That is all a good thing. I hope TMK perceives that as a good thing as well rather than what I have heard from a few musicians and other veteran rasikas 'Oh, rasikas.org? You people are list oriented and always critical and controversial', 'you people do not know anything', 'How can I even bring myself down to your ignoramus low level to discuss things' etc. That is just a bad reading by them of what we really are and the wide and diverse interests of our members.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thanks to Jignaasa for the correction. I too had heard in more recent years that the correct way to say it was manavinala.. and didn't give it much thought.
sankark wrote:Totally unrelated to the presentation in question, what is the sandhi rules for manavi + AlakincharAdaTE - is it manavinAla or manaviyAla or manavyAla? In tamizh, I would say it is the second one and while singing fast it becomes 3rd?
Just from an old memory of school age Sanskrit, it is called yan sandhi: dissimilar vowels joining to make a Ya sound in this case (shortening the previous consonant).
Jignaasa's words:
Manavi + Ala = manavyala..

Jigyaasa
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Jigyaasa »

The word is Alakincha (hear) or Alakimpa (hear). "Ala" doesn't mean anything. Nor does just "kim" in telugu.

Another in the list of #mostbutcheredsongnames is
mahavishnu wrote:Orajupuchu

or (even worse!) "OrA jUpuju sedi" instead of Ora jUpu chUchEdi. It's like saying "OrakkaNNAlpAr... padu nyAyamA?"

http://sahityam.net/w/index.php?title=Ora_Joopu

ramakriya
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by ramakriya »

Missed due to another event at the same time.. Looks like this had a massive attendance!

mahavishnu
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by mahavishnu »

Jigyaasa: LOL. Guilty as charged re: the butchery ;) I relied on phonological cues when spelling those phrases, rather than semantic ones.
However, the sandhi that TMK used in the naLinakAnti piece was definitely an /n/ phoneme. He has consistently used this over the years and so have many others. As to how it parses, I will leave it to telugu language experts to talk about.
bhakthim dehi wrote:Was there any sancharam beyond mandra ni in Anandhabhairavi ragam?
No, there wasn't. And in TMK's defense, I don't think there was any phrase that would have been a give-away reetigowla. But I distinctly remember the phrases gmgrs and a gmp which could both go each way, which the kArvai time on gAndhAram maybe led to my perception of ambiguity.
Summing up I feel just as I went to Mali or TNR's concert with trepidations,expectations and came away partly frustrated and partly enthralled,I need to adopt the same attitude when I attend TMK's concerts!!
MKR, I really appreciate what you wrote in the earlier thread. And I as wrote there (and here), the problem is not with his idiosyncrasies, but with the implementation of his music and its effect on the listener.
I would like to experience it. Sometimes the violin can distract from focussing on the vocalist's build up even when the violin actually enhances it. Sriramkumar is indeed great on doing it right but it will be interesting how good TMK's alapana was without any violin enhancement.

BTW, how did he indicate that to Sriramkumar? Just curious.
Interesting question. I guess they had a prior arrangement. Sometimes, it felt like there were a lot of private conversations between the artistes before the next "surprise".

VK, listening to a high-level alapanai development sans violin (or other) accompaniment is very interesting. The early morning concert series that I attended in Chennai called "prabhat sangeetham" featured entirely acapella (solo) concerts. Delightful indeed!

Sindhuja
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Sindhuja »

Thanks all, for the insights.
I have also heard many people (including NSG if I remember right) sing it as "manavinAlakim". Wonder what the story there is.
@vasanthakokilam: interesting point on "shared context". TMK is true to his word that he sings from and for himself. The problem is, he is sometimes too true to it :) As I said some ragam beginnings sounded like he was humming to himself. That element of "come, let me hold your hand and lead the way into the ragam" seemed to be missing. But may there's no reason we should expect to be led that way!
@hamsadhwani: TMK doesn't sing cutcheris; we don't write reviews :)
@rajeshnat: I think it was a little over 3 hours.
BTW what was the raga of the tulsidas bhajan? Anyone? It sounded like Senjurutti (Jhinjhoti?) but had some M2 in the end...

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Ranganayaki »

Jigyaasa wrote:The word is Alakincha (hear) or Alakimpa (hear). "Ala" doesn't mean anything.
Oh, yes.. I was aware of the correct wording - only because of your earlier post. I was in a hurry, and must have cut or copied wrong or something like that. In any case, I believe my focus was on the Sandhi.. the i and the a coming together to make the ya.. and if I was aware of writing Ala, the rest of the word probably did not matter to me. Sorry.

mahavishnu
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by mahavishnu »

BTW what was the raga of the tulsidas bhajan? Anyone? It sounded like Senjurutti (Jhinjhoti?) but had some M2 in the end...
It sounded like Senjurutti to me too; not sure I heard the M2.
From what I understand, Krishna's version is very similar to the one sung by the legendary D.V. Paluskar here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhYD-olejus

arasi
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by arasi »

Mahavishnu,
Your reviews are as eagerly awaited by rasikAs as the concerts themselves :)
Your top notch review (you set the standard!) on TMK's concert is not only a consummate rasikA's impressions of a concert experience (after reading so much about TMK's performances, I dare not call it a mere concert), but a valuable statement from the observers' gallery.

Not only that. Yours is a keen study of an experiment conducted by an artiste. The concert halls are his labs where listeners can really see (listen to) it happening. The format, if there is one (?) changes day to day. No wonder, listeners throng to hear (see) the novelty of it all.

As Vasanthakokilam rightly said, this string of concerts in our part of the world is a great way for TMK to do his experiments every weekend to different sets of listeners to see the results. If he continues to win a lot of listeners, he may stick with being unpredictable in his presentation and carry on his non-concerts which during the course of time will become a sub-sect of concerts (performance? musical experience?) as it happens with religions.

Or, he might revert to traditional concerts because he had experimented enough, or got bored with a long stretch of it. Either way, he will not stop to draw crowds.

What puzzles me is not only his addressing the audience every now and then, waking up from his trance of musical experience, but a few rasikAs saying that we need to get a 'suspension of disbelief' pass before we enter the hall.

May be its my inadequacy in knowledge and appreciation of CM which is the reason for this. I will be a listener and observer when I am in India, hoping there are many more rasikAs like me in the hall who are inadequate in their rasikatvam..

Sindhuja,
So good to read your review too! West coast garners ace reviewers :)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Mahavishnu, yes I remember your write up about "prabhat sangeetham". I need to get myself invited to that one of these days.

Even in regular engagements, if the vocalist and violinist take turns every 3 minutes or so, one of those turns the vocalist can just sing without any violin. Somehow, violinist can play by themselves but vocalist can't? I think a confident vocalist should try it even in concerts.

Arasi, I think what is needed is more a 'suspension of standard expectations'. But we are getting to a point where there is a 'standard expectation of TMK musical offerings' which is not to expect the standard fare. So suspension has turned into substitution.

BTW, I did not mean to imply that TMK is experimenting with his audience to see which one works. While that is indeed a possibility, I was getting at the fact he is getting a lot of 'ink' here among us, there are members at most of the cities he performs who write about his MO and there is enough to talk about each one since they are quite different. It has been quite level headed both on the positive and negative side. At least, we have not heard the childish things we used to hear which is he is doing all this for cheap publicity.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1764
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ramesh, thank you again for yet another thoughtful account of a concert. Reading you, I found myself in agreement with every word, including the part about KAP and the notion of minimalism. I only said that I did not grasp their meaning in that description, but when I heard him play, I did understand what they were talking about. I agree with what you said about Minimalism being too much of a word for KAP's playing. If I were to sum up his individual contribution, then I would say that most of the time, he barely did anything, but played a couple of good solo interludes.

Did anyone compare him to Vellore Ramabhadran? I did not see that in these discussions. May be it was elsewhere on the forum. He did not remind me of VR in his playing style. VR was busy during any concert and actively enhanced it. I would say of KAP that he did not enhance the performance, but he was not intrusive and did not encroach. It was something I appreciated, because of all the banging I hear mostly. I liked the soothing approach.

At the same time, during the concert, my initial surprise having worn off, I started feeling that KAP's body language exuded (sorry) laziness and he did not appear to be so much into the concert.
.
Yet, when I think of it, I can't help feeling that it was ok from my point of view that KAP did far less, the most important thing being the music. I have been thinking all week about how everyone barely moved a muscle and yet a very beautiful atmosphere was created (I hope I am not repeating myself in saying that).

My gripe where the music is concerned is that not one raga or taala was deeply explored.. Just a little taste of many things.. He needs to explore depths a bit more, both in compositions and improvization. He skimmed many surfaces, showed his talent, and left me feeling that he did not say all that there was to be said. He did not show everything there was to show in anything that he undertook. That is not fair to the music.

Similarly anyone with percussion in their background would not have enjoyed such playing, I think. My idea for TMK would be to continue with this, but to give much more ample opportunity for KAP to play unusual, interesting and spectacular solos, lengthier ones too.
vasanthakokilam wrote:
Sometimes the violin can distract from focussing on the vocalist's build up even when the violin actually enhances it. Sriramkumar is indeed great on doing it right...
Even when he does accompany the build-up, RKSK barely expresses himself during TMK's alapana. All he did was to play one of the last notes sung by TMK. This was exactly what I DREAM about. I have listened to concert after concert where the violinist makes the concert quite noisy.


In spite of all I said about how TMK acted, I feel that musically, it was a free expression from all, it was definitely a collaboration.

His response to the idea of predictability shows very limited introspection or understanding of the depth of words or even the relationship between performer and audience. Yes Sindhuja is exactly right. Whether he intends it or not, he IS unpredictable. We all came with open minds, which is a great gift to him, I think, going by the sort of views I've seen expressed here, it was so unfair. We listened with open minds and we have our free reaction. We express it openly, just as he offers his music openly. Our opinions during this tour of his have consistently been about our experience, and not personally about him.

Sindhuja
Posts: 162
Joined: 31 Mar 2010, 11:11

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Sindhuja »

Ranganayaki wrote:
My gripe where the music is concerned is that not one raga or taala was deeply explored.. Just a little taste of many things.. He needs to explore depths a bit more, both in compositions and improvization. He skimmed many surfaces, showed his talent, and left me feeling that he did not say all that there was to be said. He did not show everything there was to show in anything that he undertook. That is not fair to the music.
Nice - exactly my point!

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by arasi »

VK,
I meant 'suspension of disbelief' in the sense Coleridge used it...

vasanthakokilam
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arasi, ok.. got it.

gardabha_gana
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Joined: 24 Dec 2006, 07:44

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by gardabha_gana »

Nice discussion. I am not as discerning or knowledgeable as fellow forumites who have contributed. If one were to observe TMK's writings in the Hindu - in addition to his music, I feel that he is definitely on a deep introspection tour. I do agree with him at times - and disagree with him at times (writings). I don't think any of this is intentional. I personally feel that there is enough to be explored in the traditional format - and if one attends concerts of say, MLV, DKJ, KVN, RKS, RV you can sense the completeness you come away with. In the present generation, I would feel the same with Sanjay, Vijay Siva, RG (till recently), and used to be TMK. In fact, I like his voice the most - with the range that he effortlessly produces. When I listen to an alapana, part of the excitement is associated with which composer's song is Sanjay going to sing, will Vijay Siva pull out a Dikshitar special, will RV or RKS pull out an unheard of song of the trinity! Well, with TMK it ends up is he going to sing a song? Having heard his "tranditional" concerts, I just feel wistful now.

I think one person who comes out with universal acclaim is RKSK. He is a scholar in addition to being an accompanist who always takes the concert to another level. I notice he accompanies everyone young, old, male, female....what class!

Govindaswamy
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Govindaswamy »

[quote="Jigyaasa"]

manavi AlakincharAdaTE

This is sung both ways. Thyagaraja was not only a vAggEyakAra but a great poet. Though the people of TamizhnAdu are mainly responsible for preserving Thyagaraja's kritis, distortions have taken place due to lack of knowledge of Telugu of many musicians and rasikas. I think that both 'manavi+ Alakincha' and 'manavini +Alakincha' are grammatically correct. I think that the first one becomes manavyAlakincha and the second, manavinAlakincha. The second one is longer by half mAtra. The rules regarding the duration of vowels, apply only to poetry and not to music because even a short vowel can be extended to suit the rules of music. Only experts in Telugu can say which version is correct. Applying the grammar rules of sanskrit to Telugu poetry is not apt. The grammars of Dravidian languages are very close to one another.
Govindaswamy

Jigyaasa
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Jigyaasa »

@mahavishnu, I feel silly nitpicking on such a nicely written review that almost transports one to the concert, thanks so much! :) However, it's always been one of my pet peeves. Besides, I think understanding the words certainly enhances one's appreciation of a composition.

mahavishnu
Posts: 3341
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by mahavishnu »

Ranganayaki wrote: Did anyone compare him to Vellore Ramabhadran? I did not see that in these discussions. May be it was elsewhere on the forum. He did not remind me of VR in his playing style. VR was busy during any concert and actively enhanced it. I would say of KAP that he did not enhance the performance, but he was not intrusive and did not encroach. It was something I appreciated, because of all the banging I hear mostly. I liked the soothing approach.
Ranganayaki: First, thanks for all your very interesting comments.

A number of people here (and elsewhere) have commented that KAP sounds like Sri Ramabadran. Other than a very *loose* structural analogy, based on the fact that they both play "softly" there is virtually nothing in common between the two both in terms of form, function, style or substance. Some folks have even called KAP the Ramabadran of his generation. I completely disagree. There is not even a superficial element of similarity in their approaches. And just like you I found it surprising that people would even make this comparison!

More broadly, I find it quite worrisome that a number of other people think mridangists fall into only one of two categories strictly based on their "relative" loudness. There are many ways of playing with subtle touches that doesn't include KAP's minimalism. I wish people would focus on how the mridangist accompanies to enhance certain musical aspects of the composition. For any rasika, learning to appreciate this would significantly increase their aesthetic understanding of the performance and role of the percussionist in it.

Just for example, listen to the legendary Trichy Sankaran accompany TMK for the much discussed naLinakAnti composition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFgUMD1wPVg. This has all the perfect elements of how to structure the accompaniment for a kriti. Perfect thoppi usage and such sweet anticipation in following all the contours of the music. Just watching him keep the pulses of the tAlam during the silences is in itself a lesson for mridangam students.

Ironically, the video ends with a classic TMK reprimand of an audience member :) In his defense, the audience member had it coming!

But if this clip hadn't been recorded, I think 6945 that have viewed this youtube video (at the time of this posting) would have missed out on a significant life experience. I have personally contributed to about 100 of those views :)

Sindhuja
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Sindhuja »

mahavishnu: thanks for the D.V. Paluskar link. That rendition also has m2 sprinkled here and there (at 1:16 for instance). TMK used the m2 in the same way (PMP phrases). But that didn't take away the Senjurutti feel - especially in TMK's rendition. May be call it mishra senjurutti...

mahavishnu
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by mahavishnu »

Thanks, Sindhuja. I spotted the M2 now also. Do you remember if Krishna sang it in madhyama sruti?
It is certainly a portmanteau ragam.

rshankar
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by rshankar »

Sindhuja wrote:mahavishnu: thanks for the D.V. Paluskar link. That rendition also has m2 sprinkled here and there (at 1:16 for instance). TMK used the m2 in the same way (PMP phrases). But that didn't take away the Senjurutti feel - especially in TMK's rendition. May be call it mishra senjurutti...
All this discussion makes me question the rAga Smt. MSS has rendered this in....
Sri Paluskar's version is beautiful...Thank you, Ramesh.
And just for the record, I love the way Sri tulsidAs ji ends the bhajan - gives me goosebumps everytime - mero man hAr liyO jAnkI ramaNvA - not 'I lost my heart to rAm', but rather 'rAm made me lose my heart to him'!!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by vasanthakokilam »

you two amaze me with such precise swara identification. Let me see if I can hear at least anything unusual at 1:16

Sindhuja
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Sindhuja »

mahavishnu wrote:Do you remember if Krishna sang it in madhyama sruti?
I believe he did. Not entirely sure though.
The ni3 also makes it mishra... interesting how despite these anya swaras it sounds very much like Senjurutti/ Jhinjhoti. Wonder if this is a raga by itself in HM.
This song reminded me of MSS' famous more toh giridhar gopal. I was surprised to see that many websites mention the raga as Behaag. It doesn't sound like Behaag at all to me. Khamaj-ish, yes, but not Behaag.

mahavishnu
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by mahavishnu »

All this discussion makes me question the rAga Smt. MSS has rendered this in....
Ravi, Here is MSS's version: http://blog.msstribute.org/ms-repertoir ... ktulsidas/
This sounds like just straight-up senjurutti and has a distinct South Indian feel (independent of her vowel inflections). I must confess that I did not listen to it carefully enough to detect anya swarams.
I was surprised to see that many websites mention the raga as Behaag. It doesn't sound like Behaag at all to me. Khamaj-ish, yes, but not Behaag.
Sindhuja: Yes, I imagine that Paluskar's version descended from the khamaj-thaat; and certainly not the same cultural origins as senjurutti and its beginnings in signature South Indian paNN isai (sempAlai or harikambhoji).

mahavishnu
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by mahavishnu »

vasanthakokilam wrote: I hope TMK perceives that as a good thing as well rather than what I have heard from a few musicians and other veteran rasikas 'Oh, rasikas.org? You people are list oriented and always critical and controversial', 'you people do not know anything', 'How can I even bring myself down to your ignoramus low level to discuss things' etc. That is just a bad reading by them of what we really are and the wide and diverse interests of our members.
VK: I just noticed this comment of yours and I thought I would add a couple of lines.

TMK has his own opinion of rasikas.org and it is certainly not positive. He does not like the anonymity and the random knee-jerk opinions that some folks express here. And I think this extends to his general perception that there are a lot of hacks out there. And I certainly don't blame him for it.

However, many musicians take some of the comments expressed here very seriously and are able to filter out the noise from the signal. Both in terms of hyper-critical, unfair and sometimes venomous comments and also the hyperbolic obsequious messages bordering on sycophancy. Insightful comments are often received very well and I have often heard that from musicians that browse through the reviews here.

Opinions aside, it is interesting that whatever is written here is read widely by several people. And in many ways this is probably one of the best windows into informed public opinion that anyone can get (artiste/organizer/rasika).

MV
Posts: 469
Joined: 19 Dec 2009, 08:01

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by MV »

Hello everyone. It has been a busy few months and I have come back to rasikas.org to a wealth of lovely reviews, not the least of which is this thread! Nice one Mahavishnu, Sindhuja et al. Few things
I have just been running my iPod as usual and heard TMK 1.0 maybe early 2000 sing Vaadinen Vadi in Sahana, Ritigoulai, Purvikalyani and Mohanam for Narayana Divya namam. Would be interesting to hear Version TMK 2.0 (as you aptly call it Sindhuja :D )
Just read Sanjay's blog on Mallaris. And strangely, he sang that in his concert in NZ maybe mid-2000. It was refreshing and none of us had heard that form before and he explained it to the audience. From his blog, it must have been fresh after his discussions with his Guru! Maybe Sanjay's blog is not a right add for this thread. And then, maybe it is :)
Finally, Mahavishnu right about the reach of Rasikas.org. I have heard totally unexpected people come and tell me that they have been here. So...

Sindhuja
Posts: 162
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Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Sindhuja »

What stood out to me in the Sanjay article was this:

"The carnatic music concert format has so much to offer in terms of space to innovate, include and exclude things. Much like the size of the canvas that a painter works with, I love this format and the challenge it offers to my creative juices. My guru Shri KSK was a strong supporter of this format and always maintained that just as how the arohanam/avarohanam in a raga or an avartanam in a talam is a limiting factor so too is the concert format. In his own way he was following Quantitative Analysis to optimise a concert experience that provided a refreshing feel to both performer and listener."

:)

(sanjaysub.blogspot.com)

arasi
Posts: 16873
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by arasi »

MV,
Good to have you back :)

Sindhuja,
Yes. Sanjay's article is relevant in this context, but those of us who read it did not want to make waves about it in this thread, understandably. That's why K.V. Chellappa who had followed TMK and also had discussed with him on concert format (or the lack of it) started a separate thread on this, I guess (Unbridled Enthusiasm).

I don't think fans of one artiste or the other consider this a a joust between two very visible artistes! There are a few who look upon this as such, but most of us here are happy to hear CM which pleases us, where the artistes are as keen on pleasing the listeners without any fuss or fury.

There is no need to get carried away with our appreciation for the musicians to forget the music and zero in merely on personalities.If it happens (hope not), it will be like the times when we were young. Sivaji fans pelting MGR posters with cow dung and MGR fans doing the same to Sivaji posters :)

Two different kinds of stars with totally different ways of entertaining the public :)

Sindhuja
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Joined: 31 Mar 2010, 11:11

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by Sindhuja »

Oh, couldn't agree more, arasi. Wasn't aware of the other thread...

MV
Posts: 469
Joined: 19 Dec 2009, 08:01

Re: TM Krishna SF Bay Area Oct 26, 2014

Post by MV »

Arasi & Sindhuja
Mea Culpa for bringing the blog into this thread. I wasn't aware of the other thread either ...
But getting back to TMK, I feel maybe he is playing with the continuity in the concert which we have come to expect, but the depth in his singing itself is huge and is well-magnified in TMK 2.0. Which is why I am serious when I say I would love to hear the viruttam 'Vaadinen Vadi' he sang in 2014 as opposed to 2000. Proof of the pudding.

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