What makes a Tani interesting?

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 09 Feb 2008, 03:22

Here you go...

and before anyone asks, no, I do not have anything else from this concert (Ramani-TNK-PMI, July 3 1977 @ Ragasudha).

http://rapidshare.com/files/90249603/Thani__1.mp3.html

ignoramus · Post by **ignoramus** » 09 Feb 2008, 07:15

thank you, and i understand very well

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Feb 2008, 13:56

Very interesting thread...please keep it going guys! I didn't have a clue about Tavil/Chenda sollus so it was an education for me!

I too approach the tani as a layman - basically look for pleasing sound with a mixture of fast phrases and pauses. I also like to see how complicated the playing is - and for me the reference point is whether I am am able to keep time or not! Once in a while I manage to guess the nadais...and of course the Mohra/Korvai sequence is a fitting climax..

I do like to see more than 1 percussion - the sense of team-work/competitiveness on stage is great to watch!

Many have stood out - several of UKS/KRM/Trichy Sankaran Tanis - such as KRM/Suresh for TMK this year at Academy - UKS for TNS at PSS, Trichy Sankaarn for Sanjay at Academy in 02....

Last Q is quite dicey....I guess I would like to see less math in the kritis than in the tani...I guess sensitivity to sangathis is a good thing - but for the layman this is hard to tell...

Sankirnam - thanks for the uploads....

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 11 Feb 2008, 18:51

Vijay - Would love to discuss. But then since this turns out to be a sensitive topic, I am just refraining from posting.

Sankiranam - Thanks for the uploads. That was indeed a lovely thani.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Feb 2008, 20:19

Please do not refrain.

Recall that this is a forum, for us all, right, wrong, informed or uninformed, to have our say and discuss.

The offended may worry about their own offence.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2008, 23:39

thathwamasi, we will leave it to your personal discretion. Like Nick, I also encourage frank discussions without fear, but then you only know if a particular aspect is getting into personal territories that is more about the style/tradition of a particular school. Passing value judgement on such things causes some extra curricular debates

So, we wil leave it to you to draw the line. Thanks.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Feb 2008, 10:16

Ahhh... the words of a true diplomat

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2008, 10:36

Well said, Nick!

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 12 Feb 2008, 15:41

Thanks Vasanthakokilam. Really diplomatic as Nick has said.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Feb 2008, 01:45

thathwamasi, please go ahead with what you wanted to post. We will ask for forgiveness if we step on some sensitive spots

I am also curious to know/hear what those thavil and chenda sollus are...

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 13 Feb 2008, 14:24

Vasanthakokilam .. hahaha... Absolutely no sensitive spots from my side...Its all rationale...

I shall write in detail with music posted shortly once I get internet at home. Cos this cannot be discussed without posting the corresponding music.

Thanks
T

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 14 Feb 2008, 06:07

Thathwamasi, I just listened to the Lalgudi clip you said, you're absolutely right. Those sollus that PMI has played in the charanam are chenda sollus only, amazing stuff.

http://rapidshare.com/files/91632335/03 ... antham.mp3

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 14 Feb 2008, 11:24

Sankirnam!!! You r a star. This is the one I was referring to. Fabulous stuff. This is the perfect example of chendai style of playing. I haven't heard anyone else playing this with such immense clarity. I have heard that PMI's son Rajamani Mama once referred about this and said "even after 20 years of practice, one cannot play this sollu like PMI". For the benefit of the forum members, please try finding the Mali clip as well. The concert will begin with bhairavi, followed by tholinenuje, varamulosagi, yochana and thiruvadi charanam as main. After an excellant "all misranadai" thani, Mani Iyer would have played amazingly for Mali's Sukhi Evvaro. Anupallavi in that is an example of chendai style of playing.

All

Please listen to this clip. The style with Mani Iyer has played for the charanam is a proper example of Chendai sollu. The tone color of the mridangam will suddenly change in charanam. Thoppi won't be heard prominently. It will be mainly the metallish sound of the right side with a chendai tinch.

Thanks
T

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 14 Feb 2008, 14:29

Many thanks Sankirnam and Thathwamasi!

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 21 Feb 2008, 16:38

One more note about the PMI's playing for Muddumomu in the above clip.

In the Flute Mali obituary edition of Sruti, Mali's room mate (I think his name is Mr.Ramakrishna) would have written a lot about Mali. He would have mentioned that Mali is a combination of Gavaskar, David Gower, Viv Richards and Javed Miandad. The purist, the technician, the master blaster and the street fighter which I think is a wonderful way of expressing what Mali is. I felt PMI is the same but for the Javed Miandad bit.

In this clip, he would played for the pallavi like Gavasker(stron technique, amazing nidanam in the opening and pure sound), then becomes a David Gower for anupallavi, (immaculate style, tremendous variety, and keeping up the tempo very well), and then became a Viv Richards for Charanam.

Thanks
T

anandasangeetham · Post by **anandasangeetham** » 21 Feb 2008, 17:55

Dear All,

I am into carnatic music listening recently. I love the mridangam as an accompaniment. However I am at a loss to understand the tani ( though I enjoy it mor particularly the reducing beats (kuraipu?) and final gettogether of all the persussionists ...) I request sri Thatwamasi (if it is not a bother) to briefly explain all the techno words, how to identify the nadais, and from my reading of this thread how to identify the various sollus....I was till recently under the impression that the playing is same for all instruments and only the tone and sound varies..Correct me ..I am sure to be wrong.. This can be a guide for all laymen like me to appreciate tani in a more involved manner. Here I must say that I NEVER leave the concert during tani.....

I do hope my request is not very heavy on sri thatwamasi...

Thanks in advance

anandasangeetham

ram.mrid · Post by **ram.mrid** » 13 Mar 2008, 10:40

hai everybody........ this is the first time that iam writing in a website.....found this topic very interesting for me to write...

before going to discuss what would make an interesting thani..... it would be better if we could discuss, how much of thani would make the concert more interesting( w.r.t mere rasikas ) ..... in this respect if a main artist would give 2 mins for a thani..... or around 10 to 15 mins...... would it still be completely interesting concert or not would subsequently decide how interesting is a thani to the manodharma of a rasika.....As a performer myself i thought if i had some gyaan about this.... we could discuss what would make a thani interesting....

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Mar 2008, 16:15

anandasangeetham, you are asking for mridangam lessons! But, if you browse this forum, you will find a lot has been written on these matters, and a lot has been explained by some of our musician members who have kindly given time. If you cannot find it here, there are many articles on the internet explaining the basic structure and procedures of the thani.

Let me confess that I have studied (or, at least, attended classes, which may not amount to the same thing) mridangam, and that I too am often at a loss to understand the thani! Especially when performed by some of the masters of nadai change such as Trichy Sankaran. I have never failed to be thrilled by his thani, but ask me to put talam or even identify the nadai at a particular point, and I will fail the test sadly.

To know the solukutu; I think there is no alternative but to attend mridangam class, where, just as a violinist will be taught the words of a song, so a mridangist will be taught the words of a composition, and one will start with simple lessons.

Some of the elements of thani are there also in swara kalpana, eg koraipu, korvais, and some performers will make these as complex as those performed by the mridangist. Yet I notice that some who sit happily through the swara kalpana will shake their heads at the thani. Do you find that you can identify rhythmic calculations in the swara singing, and are you able to identify similar calculations in the thani? Already you are aware of the koraipu, you say; perhaps you understand more than you think!

ram.mrid, I don't think there is any answer to your question! It is probably more to do with how long the players can hold the attention of the audience. For that, of course, it has to be interesting, which brings us back to the initial premise of the thread!

The interest of other musicians on stage has a bearing too; those who relate well to the percussionists, and patently enjoy their contribution will inspire the audience to do so too. Those who merely take rest, or sit and wait for it to be over may encourage negative feelings in the audience too.

Where there is positive appreciation from the main, and other artists, it is most likely that a good relationship will have been there throughout the accompaniment, and that the thani will be given in the spirit of the concert. If this is the case, the audience may not feel that the thani is a break from the concert, as can be the case, but will feel that it is an integral part of it, which means it can be longer.

Vaikasivishakam · Post by **Vaikasivishakam** » 28 May 2008, 09:04

I need to improve my awareness to answer the first question. During a tani, I try to "layichufy" and try to just feel it without the knowledge. But it goes only so far. (Any suggestions on where I could find some educational material? I would like to identify when the artiste goes into the madhyama kalam, into the farans and the mohara. I will feel very satisfied if I could do this).

I do like Ghatam and Mridangam together on stage. Seems richer.

Palghat Mani Iyer. Seems like he was very very energetic. He was able to cut thru my lack of knowledge.

To me, a Tani is not an accompaniment. It is a solo.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 May 2008, 13:58

I would like to identify when the artiste goes into the madhyama kalam, into the farans and the mohara. I will feel very satisfied if I could do this).

And I feel satisfied when I can, though goodness knows I have no excuse for not being able to, having sat though enough mridangam lessons, even if I didn't memorise those compositions.

On the whole though, I would say that if you learn Adi tala 'small farans' and mohara, you will be able to mostly recognise the similar patterns in the other talas.

You sound as if you probably have the experience to work backwards, ion some recordings, from the final korvais to identifying the mohara --- it has two 'verses' equal length, one shorter, then one shorter again, then thiermanum

(have to go. wife is dressed for outing, and I am not!)

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 03 Jun 2008, 08:48

Time to resurrect this part of the forum (and this thread) again....

This is an excerpt from Balamurali's concert in Mysore in 1981, main piece was Evari Maata. Violin was Annavarappu Ramaswamy and mrudangam, if you listen to the recording, is UKS sir.

http://rapidshare.com/files/119690884/B ... araman.mp3

I uploaded this to touch upon a point that Vijay bought up - that the best music is based on pure nadam, rather than being overly mathematical. Of course, one can argue that music and mathematics are inseparable. Even melodies can be mathematically derived and contain essential mathematical constants (such as the golden ratio, or phi).

I also uploaded this becuase even though this is a thread about thanis, we have links to thanis by PMI, KRM, Upendransir, but no thanis by UKS sir!! For shame...

I got this thani from Sangeetham.com a long time ago, someone uploaded this back then to make the same point that I am making now. Listen to how short and thrilling this thani is... and there is only one korvai, which is the final one. The best mrudangam vidwans have a style based on nadam rather than mathematics (UKS sir and Sankaran). This style, being simple, is easily and very much appreciated by all audiences. Of course, it takes a LOT of hard work and effort to get to this level, and this what we should all be aiming for.

Even if you dont understand exactly what he is doing at the end, playing the mohara in tisram and all, just listening will still give an electric effect. UKS sir puts vallinam and mellinam (soft and loud) to great use, and gives a variety of sounds. He also keeps with the mood generated by the main artist, rather than taking off on a tangent.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 16 Jun 2008, 14:05

The best mrudangam vidwans have a style based on nadam rather than mathematics (UKS sir and Sankaran). This style, being simple, is easily and very much appreciated by all audiences. Of course, it takes a LOT of hard work and effort to get to this level, and this what we should all be aiming for.

exactly....hit the nail on the head

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 11 Jul 2008, 22:16

nick H wrote:
I would like to identify when the artiste goes into the madhyama kalam, into the farans and the mohara. I will feel very satisfied if I could do this).
And I feel satisfied when I can, though goodness knows I have no excuse for not being able to, having sat though enough mridangam lessons, even if I didn't memorise those compositions.

On the whole though, I would say that if you learn Adi tala 'small farans' and mohara, you will be able to mostly recognise the similar patterns in the other talas.

You sound as if you probably have the experience to work backwards, ion some recordings, from the final korvais to identifying the mohara --- it has two 'verses' equal length, one shorter, then one shorter again, then thiermanum

(have to go. wife is dressed for outing, and I am not!)

If you don't mind sir, I would like to take a crack at explaining how to understand when an artist goes into faran, mohara, and the final korvai.

I first should point out that I am not an expert or even too "knowledgable" in this field and everything I'm about to explain I either just picked up by myself or I learned from my guru (and if what I write is wrong, I obviously did not understand it correctly).

Farans

It seems as though the general pattern to start the Faran's portion of the thani is to start with "Dhim- tharikita thaka dhim-". Such as for Adi Talam, what I have learned is "Dhim - tharikita thaka dhim - tharikita thaka dhkuthari kitathaka (or ]thaka thari kita thaka). (you play this twice to complete the cycle)

For a chapu thalam it is the same, such as for Mishra it would be Dhim- tharikita thaka dhim - tharikita thaka dhim - tharikita thaka dhim - tharikita thaka dhikutharikitathaka.

There are instances where the Faran's don't start with the phrase "Dhim - tharikita thaka dhim" such as another faran begining I learned starting as...

Dhim dhina tharikita dhim kita nathom kita thaka dhiku thari kita thaka......

In such cases what one would look for is the parttern of playing a phrase, followed by "dhiku thari kita thaka".

In the first lessoned I told you about, the lesson would continue as

.... Thankita dhikuthari kita thaka
Than kita dhiku thari kita thaka
Dhiku thari kita thaka

Naka dhi- than kita dhiku thari kita thaka
Naka dhi - than kita dhiku thari kita thaka

naka thari kita thaka dhiku thari kita thaka
naka thari kita thaka dhiku thari kita thaka

etc....

In the second lesson it would have

... Than kita dhiku thari kita thaka
Than kita thaka dhiku thari kita thaka
Dhiku thari kita thaka

Dhi kita dhiku thari kita thaka
Dhi kita dhiku thari kita thaka
Dhiku thari kita thaka

Dhiri kita thaka Thari kita thaka
Dhiri kita thaka thari kita thaka
Dhiku thari kita thaka

Thari kita thaka Dhiri kita thaka
Thari kita thaka Dhiri kita thaka
Dhiku thari kita thaka.

etc...

I'm not sure ifyou were able to read through all my rambling or if I explained it well, however there is a pattern between these. While they both are different notes being played, they are similar in the sense that you play a phrase on your mridangam twice followed by "Dhiku thari kita thaka" (at least that's how I was taught so far) .

And this is how I THINK it would be easier to identify the faran's portion, of course it will take some listening and getting used to quickly identify it, much like ragams.

For the MOHARA it is much easier.

This is what specifically tells the singer that the Tani is comming to an end.

The main (and as far as I know only) think you need to watch out for to understand the Mohara is the "Thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom" or some variation of that (such as Thalongu thom dhi thom dhi thom).

The Mohara as far as I know, always has the same structure.

Here is a simple Mohara---

Dhi- than kita dhiku thari kita thaka thaka dhi, than kita dhiku thari kita thaka
Dhi- than kita dhiku thari kita thaka THALONGU THOM DHI, THALONGU THOM

Dhi- than kita dhiku thari kita thaka thaka dhi, than kita dhiku thari kita thaka
Dhi- than kita dhiku thari kita thaka THALONGU THOM DHI, THALONGU THOM

Dhi- than kita dhiku thari kita thaka thaka dhi, than kita dhiku thari kita thaka
Dhi- than kita dhiku thari kita thaka THALONGU THOM.

Dhi- than kita dhiku thari kita thaka THALANGU THOM.

Dhi than kita dhiku thari kita thaka THALONGU THOM DHI THOM - THALONGU THOM DHI THOM - THALONGU THOM DHI (continue with korvai)

I capitalized tha thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom to show you where you would hear this phrase. As you can see, you play the openning sequence twice ending with thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom.

During the 3rd time you play it this whole phrase, you just end with Thalongu thom, then you just play half the sequence ( if you want to call it that) and end it with thalongu thom again, and finally finish it off, playing half the sequence and finishing it with thalongu thom dhi thom, thalongu thom dhi thom, thalongu thom dhi.

For KORVAI (or MUKTHAI (sp?))

You will realise when this begins because it is always after the Mohara. Korvai doesn't necessarily mean the end of the thani all together, but rather playing an ending (of whatever it may be) 3 times. You can have a thisra korvai to just end your thisra section of the thani, however the korvai that is after the Mohara will always be THE Korvai, meaning the korvai that ends the thani.

So to recap-

FARANS- Look for the beginning phrase "Dhim- thari kita thaka dhim" or just look for the pattern as shown above

Mohara - Thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom

korvai (final) - Always after Mohara.

I'm VERY sorry for my long rambling, and chances are no one really needed me to write out this whole thing, but quite frankly, I'm very bored right now and have nothing to do, and this was quite enjoyable for me to write this out.

If I made a mistake anywhere, please inform me because I would definitely like to learn correctly, not to mention I wouldn't like to give others false information.

Again sorry for the rambling, but hey? This was fun.... for me at least

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Jul 2008, 22:58

mridangamkid, Just fantastic. It is very readable and understandable. Thanks very much. I guess the next step is for you to record your playing those portions as written, with you saying those sollus as you play, and put it up in sites like esnips where we can listen to them inline as we read your description. This ending part of the thani has been described in many places but yours is very clear. An audio assist will make it even more relatable.

This will put to an end rasikas' speculations on how the artist knows when the thani is coming to an end: Do they communicate with eye brows, or a particular pattern of smiles or facial expressions or a foot tap or tugging at the blanket they are sitting on or may be the artists figures 'enough is enough' and starts singing, or it is the violinist who usually picks up the bow declaring 'let us wrap this up folks' etc.

Of course, it is none of those, it is all in the beats, as mridangamkid has explained.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 12 Jul 2008, 00:19

vasanthakokilam wrote:mridangamkid, Just fantastic. It is very readable and understandable. Thanks very much. I guess the next step is for you to record your playing those portions as written, with you saying those sollus as you play, and put it up in sites like esnips where we can listen to them inline as we read your description. This ending part of the thani has been described in many places but yours is very clear. An audio assist will make it even more relatable.

This will put to an end rasikas' speculations on how the artist knows when the thani is coming to an end: Do they communicate with eye brows, or a particular pattern of smiles or facial expressions or a foot tap or tugging at the blanket they are sitting on or may be the artists figures 'enough is enough' and starts singing, or it is the violinist who usually picks up the bow declaring 'let us wrap this up folks' etc. Of course, it is none of those, it is all in the beats, as mridangamkid has explained.

Ha, first I should perfect my playing / konakol before I think about making CD's correct? I understand what you mean though, it's much easier to listen because you would be able to understand all the breaks and pauses.

I actually just remember that I once saw a youtube video that had Farans, mohara and Korvai. It was played by a boy and it was a rather simple piece so it should be easy to follow. Here's the link...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=it4R68UmJbw

As you can see, he started off with the Farans, playing ...

Thalongu Thom thadhi kita ku
Thalongu thom thadhikuta ku
Dhiku thari kita thaka

Played a little more...

Then started the Mohara as...

Dhi - Thankita dhikuthari kita thaka thaka dhina jehm kita dhiku thari kita thaka
dhi - than kita dhiku thari kita thaka thakadhina thakadhina thakadhina dhim.

He continued and if you can compare the mohara I wrote and the one he played, they are quite similar. Just substitute Thalangu thom dhi thalongu thom with thaka dhina, and they are pretty much exact. Perhaps I should have made it more clear that you don't HAVE to use thalongu thom, but when I said you could use variations, it must fit into that category, meaning fit into that space. You could do somehting like ending with "Thakita thakita thakita thom" (if you vary the speed a little). Or you could do (pause) tha dhom (pause) tha dhom. Each place where it says pause would be where you clap in the thalam. Though it may not be conventional, it would still work.

From what I"ve learned, I usually play with Thalongu thom tha thalongu thom, however as shown here, you don't have to use that.

Hope this helped

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 12 Jul 2008, 00:21

Mridangamkid,

I think you need to be complimented for such a detailed write up. Truly fantastic

And you say you wrote this because you felt bored. Well in that case we wish that you are bored quite often

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jul 2008, 00:32

Ha, first I should perfect my playing / konakol before I think about making CD's correct? I understand what you mean though, it's much easier to listen because you would be able to understand all the breaks and pauses.

Mk: The modern trend is, make cd first and then start learning

j/k. If your guru approves, you can play and record exactly what you wrote as you recite the sollus along with a header commentary like 'This is faran", "this is mohra", "this is korvai". And for extra bonus points attach your post to the comments section of the mp3. All in one package. That will be awesome.

The youtube link helped a bit ( thanks for that ) but for an uninitated rasika, it is hard to associate the mridangam sound with the sollus. And it is also hard to tell when one section finishes the next one starts.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 12 Jul 2008, 00:41

Yes I can understand it being difficult to understand when the next section starts.

But that's where actually learning the mridangam helps, becuase you will learn all the phrases and get familiar, again, like raga's. I for one can't identify ragams to save my life, but others only listen for 2 seconds and can name it.

For Adi and Rupaka thalam, generally, the basic mohara's start with Dhi- thankita dhikuthari kita thaka,

However advance lessons (once you here vidwans play) may not start this way, such as one way will be (for Adi thalam)

Dhim- Tha dhim kita dhikuthari kita thaka thom- dhi- thom (thom is on madhyamam or middle thalam). Once you listen more and more, you'll be able to see similarity's between the first beggining and second beggining I showed. Perhaps someone could explain it better, it's more of a feeling I get rather than knowelge if that makes sense?

Cienu: What can I say, I'm on Summer Vacation- I'm in India (Chennai) - It's night time right now so no where to go, and like I said, this is very fun for me.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jul 2008, 01:47

Great, mrudangam kid! Summer holidays, eh?
For someone who is handicapped in this department, I found your posts very interesting. You were not rambling. You were explaining. You should have heard me voicing out the combinations! My grandson numero uno (in more than uno way) just left after a brief stay with us, and I was thinking: how much the youngsters teach us, and then I read your post! Way to go!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2008, 11:08

For the farans, as well as the phrasing that MK has given, look out for it getting more complex and having weaving in and out of the beat as it progresses. eg in the basic Adi small farans, the first section starts

||Thom , , tharikitataka thom , , tharikitataka thom , tha ,|

The second

||Thom , , tharikitataka thom , tharikitataka thom , tharikitataka |

The final

tharikitataka dhirikitataka dhirikitataka tharikitataka dhikutharikitatak

giving a fast 3+2 roll.

(It is this phrase I chose when someone wants a 10-second konokal demo! Stress the syllables I put in bold, as the nam and dhi sounds come through on the mridangam; it sounds great)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2008, 11:21

In mohara, Takajuno Thom phrase sometimes replaces THALONGU THOM DHI (isn't cut&paste wonderful

). This is a different school thing, though perhaps some musicians change to give variety. I learnt the takajuno phrasing.

However, what ever the phrasing, it is the numerical structure of the mohara which is the main key. There is a formula which allows composition of mohara for any tala with any number of aksharas. It remains astonishing to me that mridangists can do this calculation/composition stuff on the spot when they need to! My guruji once said to me, "Nick; you cannot ask the other artists to hold on while you get your calculator out!"

Thanks for the sparking off, MK. More power to your nam!

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 12 Jul 2008, 12:55

nick H wrote:However, what ever the phrasing, it is the numerical structure of the mohara which is the main key. There is a formula which allows composition of mohara for any tala with any number of aksharas.

Hi nick and friends

The formula for mohara is very simple.

Decide on the theermanam first. When i mean theermanam the number of aksharas you want the theermanam to be. 4 aksharas or 4 beat count or arai avartana of aditala has to be decided. For example adi tala has all split exacly by 2 and hence how much ever i try to explain the formula wont and cannot be easily understood. Anyway i shall explain adi tala also and go to other talas like Khanda Triputa and Misra Jampa for examples.

Generally Moharas are for about four avartas.

First avarta explains the Mohara.

Second avarta is just the repetition of the first one. (for dunces like me to understand)

Third avarta is just reducing and leads into fourth avartha with the theermanam or the ending portion.

This is what i meant earlier by deciding on the theermanam first.

If you take a 4 akshara theermanam the mohara has to be split in the following way.

2 + 2+ 2+ 2

second avarta also the same

third avarta 2 +2+2+ 1

2 + 1
2+ 4

This is how a mohara is split in any tala.

Now coming to the real thing as how to apply this formula for other talas

Take the above in representative syllables like a b a c

a is the first portion

b is the second portion

c is the last portion containing the short theermanam within the single avarta.

But the c is slightly different in treatment as compared with b. B is filled up with rolling strokes whereas the c is the filling up with Thagajonu thom or thalangu thom though both of them take the same mathematical metre. that is y i mentioned a b a and c to differentiate between b and c whereas the mathematics is the same but the playing or the representation is different. B is normally filled where as c is normally short theermanam for that single avarta which reduces towards the end into half its portion leading to the main teermanam of 4 aksharas etc.

even for adi tala if u want to have 5 akshara theermanam

the 5 akshara will hv to be divided between b and c and accordingly the counts for a needs to be reduced to 3

then the structure of the mohara will be

First Avarta and second Avarta : 1 1/2 + 2 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 2 1/2

Third Avarta : 1/2 + 2 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/4

1 1/2 + 1 1/4

1 1/2 + 5

The total will be 32 leading for four avartas.

Taking Khanda Jaati Triputa Taala :

9 aksharas per avarta with 36 aksharas in total is generally split like this with 4 akshara theermanam.

2 1/2 + 2 + 2 1/2 + 2 ===> first two avartas

2 1/2 + 2 + 2 1/2 + 1

2 1/2 + 1

2 1/2 + 4

will give u 36 in total.

There is also another method to do this mohra. decide the theermanam and reduce it from the total akshara per avarta for the tala and then divide the remainder equally which gives you both the "a" s mentioned above and divide the theermanam also equally which gives ""b" and "c" mentioned above. if it is 4 akshara teermanam then for Misra Jhampa Taalam it has to be

10 - 4 = 6
6/2 = 3
4/2 = 2

so the mohara pattern would be as follows

3 + 2 + 3 + 2 (first two avartas) ===> 20

3 + 2 + 3 + 1 ====> 9

3 + 1 ====> 4

3 + 4 ====> 7

Total = 40

The representation for all these mathematics every one easily knows .. atleast as far as mridangists cn easily decipher and for laymen this is how it is developed for all the talas.

For complicated talas with unequal number of aksharas there will always be some bits added with first portion of "a" and the second portion of a will be without that added bit.

I will deal about complicated thalas after getting to know the feedback from the rasikas.

Mannarkoil J.Balaji

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 12 Jul 2008, 13:32

nick H wrote:In mohara, Takajuno Thom phrase sometimes replaces THALONGU THOM DHI (isn't cut&paste wonderful ). This is a different school thing, though perhaps some musicians change to give variety. I learnt the takajuno phrasing.

However, what ever the phrasing, it is the numerical structure of the mohara which is the main key. There is a formula which allows composition of mohara for any tala with any number of aksharas. It remains astonishing to me that mridangists can do this calculation/composition stuff on the spot when they need to! My guruji once said to me, "Nick; you cannot ask the other artists to hold on while you get your calculator out!"

Thanks for the sparking off, MK. More power to your nam!

I wasn't too sure if it was ONLY Thalongu Thom Dhi Thalongu Thom and Thaka dhina thaka dhina thaka dhina dhim, or if you could have even more variations that would still fit the gap (like the ones I suggested earlier).

I did not realise that the reason why people play different endings was because of different schools, I just thought it was just to mix things up a bit and to seem "better" by playing it that way.

As for your earlier posts, if you don't mind me saying, I think your making it too complicated by saying it will weav on and off beat. Though this is true, what one has to remember is no matter, what, after the Dhikutharikitathak, it will always land ON Samam or Madhyamam.

For example....

Dhim - Tharikitathaka dhim - tharikita thaka dhikutharikitathaka.

After Dhim there is a break of 3, there for you count it as Dhim (2,3) tharikitathaka dhim (2,3) tharikitathak dhikutharikithaka.

The Dhikutharikitathaka will start right when your at the ring finger of our thalam, and the second Dhim (the one after dhikutharikithaka) will be right on madhyamam.

Therefor it would be like...

Dhim - Tharikita thaka Dhim - tharikitathaka Dhikutharikitathaka

Dhim (this is on madhyamam) - tharikitahaka dhim - tharikitathaka dhikuthari kita thaka

(Using Nick H's notes)

Thom, , tharikitathaka thom, tharikita thaka thom, tharikitathaka thom (The last "Thom" will be on Madhyamam)

tharikitataka dhirikitataka dhirikitataka tharikitataka dhikutharikitatak (dhikutharikitathaka will start on your ring finger and the next note wil start right on sammam or madhyamam).

Yes it's true not every note will be on beat, but it's a sure thing that each portion will either start on sammam and madhyamam. Perhaps I confused people for which I apologize but this is the best I could explain it.

As for what "mridhangam" typed, I had no idea there was an actual formula for mohara, I just knew the pattern (so if someone told me how to play the first line, I'd know how to do the rest of it). As for going into Sankeerna Jaathi Dhruva thalam and what not- I think I'll stick with good ol' Chathusra Jaathi Thriputa thaalam

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2008, 15:45

Thanks, Balaji --- I just wish I could feel easy about numbers, even addition and subtraction, although I'm a lot better (thanks to mridangam class) than I was in my school days when they just threw me out of the maths class in despair!

MK, I'm talking of that reduction to one karvai: tom , where one sort of expects tom , , --- didn't you find that hard when you first learnt it? And 3+3+2 rather than 2+2+2+2, necessarily dances around the beats (as in Thanatha Dhinatha Dhina) --- not in the same way as a korvais challenges one's ability to keep the talam when the composition stresses are removed from it, but in enough of a way to tease the ear.

Spending time in Chennai? It'd be interesting to get in touch!

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 12 Jul 2008, 17:20

nick H wrote:Thanks, Balaji --- I just wish I could feel easy about numbers, even addition and subtraction, although I'm a lot better (thanks to mridangam class) than I was in my school days when they just threw me out of the maths class in despair!

MK, I'm talking of that reduction to one karvai: tom , where one sort of expects tom , , --- didn't you find that hard when you first learnt it? And 3+3+2 rather than 2+2+2+2, necessarily dances around the beats (as in Thanatha Dhinatha Dhina) --- not in the same way as a korvais challenges one's ability to keep the talam when the composition stresses are removed from it, but in enough of a way to tease the ear.

Spending time in Chennai? It'd be interesting to get in touch!

I think I know what your talking about when you give the 3+3+2 calculation rather than the 2+2+2+2 calculation - Dhirikitathaka tharikitatka dhirikitathaka would be the 3 (per say) while dhikutharikitathaka would be the 3. Honestly - (and honestly I'm not trying to be showoffy or anything like that) but I didn't find that too hard when I first learned, however it may be becasue my guru (from Detroit) taught me this when I was in a more advanced stage, there for I was able to pick it up quite quickly. However if this isn't what you are talking about and I'm missing the sail all together, then please enlighten me as to what I don't understand.

Yes it's true, Kiran has arrived in Chennai, please, no paparazzi, ha ha. I'm in Chennai until August 20th where I'll (unfortunetly) be going back to the States. I'm staying in Teynampet right now (litterally walking distance from Apollo Hospital), though I spend alot of time in Mylapur since that's where I'm taking my mridangam lessons (from Sri Guruvayur Dora and Babu sir). It would be great to meet up with some people on here (I can trust everyone here right?),I will however be going to Tirupathi and Bangalore during the end of this month only for a couple day's though.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2008, 21:19

<deleted the calculation bit. I'm more than usually innumerate this evening!>

Our own forumite Ram is playing mridangam tomorrow at Ragha Sudha Hall, Luz Avenue, 4.30pm. I'll probably be rushing in late from another appointment and rushing off at the the end for a family birthday party, but it is likely to be others there.

We haven't had the badges made yet, but (at least at this time of year) there shouldn't be too many non-Indians wearing vestis, so I'm fairly easy to spot.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 12 Jul 2008, 22:14

nick H wrote:<deleted the calculation bit. I'm more than usually innumerate this evening!>

Our own forumite Ram is playing mridangam tomorrow at Ragha Sudha Hall, Luz Avenue, 4.30pm. I'll probably be rushing in late from another appointment and rushing off at the the end for a family birthday party, but it is likely to be others there.

We haven't had the badges made yet, but (at least at this time of year) there shouldn't be too many non-Indians wearing vestis, so I'm fairly easy to spot.

lol, well I'm sorry but I will actually be in class at the time and right after I will be going to a Concert with Dorai Sir that Babu sir will play (Siddharth Sriram is singing). Perhaps some other time we shall try to meet.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jul 2008, 22:18

Very quickly this has gone too technical to a level suitable for mridangam students rather than rasikas. MK provided the right level for an average rasika to enjoy the thani better. I think we need some recordings that depict "exactly" as written along with verbal sollus with commentary of a few sentences preceding that. Hope my request is still on the table. The audio equivalent of what MK wrote should be 2 to 3 minutes. The important thing is to ensure "exact" correspondence to what is written, what is said and what is played. This will avoid any confusion and help lay rasikas. One more request: When these sollus are written, it is not clear to a lay rasika if each sollu is one akshara or more . Also it is not clear where the atomic sollu boundary since we do not know the full sollu alphabets. So adopt a convention of a single space between sollus and multiple spaces between groups of sollus ( or something simple but very clear with no confusion or ambiguities ). Thanks very much.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 15 Jul 2008, 21:08

I'm sorry Vasanthakokilam but I do not have a possibility of recording the Farans - Mohara - Korvai due to the fact that I have no recorder anywhere near me. Had I been in the U.S right now I would be able to do it, I'm very sorry.

As for Balaji sir's post about the calculation for the Mohara, I'm very sorry but I did not understand the forumla. (Seeing so many numbers is a very scary sight for my eyes), however, coincidentally, I happened to learn a formula for Mohara today in class. It is probably no where near as in debth as your (Balaji's) and one should probably have some mridangam knowledge to fully understand it, (not to mention I'm not good at explain things on such subjects) but this is what I learned..... ( I may goof up a little because I just learned this today, and may not have understood it completely)

Let's take Adi Thalam as an example.

I'm not too sure exactly why, (I believe it's because your supposed to play 8 avarthanams in mohara), but you multiply how many beats there are in the thalam (such as Adi 8, Rupaka 6, Kanda Chapu 5 ect...) by 8.

So 8 * 8 is 64

Subtract 64 by 16 = 48 (16 is a constant)

divide 48 by 2 = 24.

(This is where the mridangam knowledge may help)

Where in the thalam is the 24th akshara in Chathusra Jaathi?

This is the beggining of the second Dhrithum (or the start of the Second Clap)

You have to make a.... well I'm not sure what the correct word is (theermanam maybe?) but just a phrase to fill in these 24 avarthanams and then for the first time around just put a "filler" for the remaining avarthanams.

The second time around play the normal 24 akshara phrase, however end with "Thalongu Dhom Dhi Thalongu Dhom".

Do that process twice, then on the third time (third time your play one filler, and then thalongu dhom dhi thalongu dhom) play the filler like normal, however on the second time around end with just thalongu dhom. Nex just end with Thalongu Dhom again (without aplaying a filler the first time) and finally finish with Thalongu dhom dhi dhom, thalongu dhom dhi dhoml, thalongu dhom dhi.

I actually made a Mohara today for fun in class, I tried with thalam and it worked out... that doesn't mean it's good though:P

Tha , Dhi, Tha , , KitaKitaThariKitaThaka Thakadhi ThanKitaDhikutharikitathaka Thakadhina Thakadhina (this should be on the first palm up clap) dhi thankita dhikutharikitathaka (Filler)

Tha , Dhi, Tha , , KitaKitaThariKitaThaka Thakadhi ThanKitaDhikutharikitathaka Thakadhina Thakadhina Thalongu Dhom Dhi Thalongu Dhom

Tha , Dhi, Tha , , KitaKitaThariKitaThaka Thakadhi ThanKitaDhikutharikitathaka Thakadhina Thakadhina dhi thankita dhikutharikitathaka.

Tha , Dhi, Tha , , KitaKitaThariKitaThaka Thakadhi ThanKitaDhikutharikitathaka Thakadhina Thakadhina Thalongu Dhom Dhi Thalongu Dhom

Tha , Dhi, Tha , , KitaKitaThariKitaThaka Thakadhi ThanKitaDhikutharikitathaka Thakadhina Thakadhina dhi thankita dhikutharikitathaka

Tha , Dhi, Tha , , KitaKitaThariKitaThaka Thakadhi ThanKitaDhikutharikitathaka Thakadhina Thakadhina Thalongu Dhom

Tha , Dhi, Tha , , KitaKitaThariKitaThaka Thakadhi ThanKitaDhikutharikitathaka Thakadhina Thakadhina Thalongu Dhom

Tha , Dhi, Tha , , KitaKitaThariKitaThaka Thakadhi ThanKitaDhikutharikitathaka Thakadhina Thakadhina Thalongu Dhom Tha Dhom, Thalongu Dhom Tha Dhom, Thalongu Dhom Tha Dhom.

For something such as mishra Chapu. You have 7 beats.

7*8 - 56

56 - 16 is 40

40 / 2 is 20.

This means that you play something with 20 Akshara's ( I don't feel like making one up so you can just say Thadhikitaku 4 times) then add a filler. Then just play the same 20 Akshara phrase and play Thalongu Dhom Dhi Thalongu Dhom.

Play the thalam in the same pattern as above

ugk · Post by **ugk** » 13 Oct 2010, 15:37

From earlier comments under this thread.
Let me add my own to that.
Maybe Karaikudi Mani does not play Tavil sollus. But he certainly
sounds like he does. Not only did it sound that way to me. But my own guru said
that. And a friend of mine who is a total layman to mridangam said KRM sounds like
he is playing Tavil on the mridangam. Keep in mind she only listens as a layman to the
overall concerts and knows virtually nothing specific about mridangam playing.
If people get offended that is their problem. Why get offended? I am told Palghat Mani Iyer
used sollus from other instruments and even told Palghat Raghu it was ok to do so 'as long as
it was true'.

ugk · Post by **ugk** » 13 Oct 2010, 15:44

Even though i am a student of mridangam. I do not micro analyse maths. But i have this ability to 'feel' what the mridangist is doing in a Thani. This is why i can admire Palghat Raghu style. I dont mentally identify all the numbers, but i digest very well the way he structures and layers his presentation and the way he transitions.
I can also admire Vellore Ramabhadran style also.
It comes down to the spirit and essense of the performance.
As Bruce Lee said to his student in 'Enter the dragon': Dont think, feel. It is like a finger pointing away to the moon

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