Musicians from Pillai community

Carnatic Musicians
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Sam Swaminathan
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Post by Sam Swaminathan »

When you turn to yester years and read about katcheries and the musicians who performed in it, you will come across a large number of musicians from the pillai community. I just cannot list them out here as they were so large in numbers and I am sure you will all readily agree with me that their contribution to this music has been tremendous.

But where are they now? Is their presence as large as it used to be? Could some one enlightened on this subject throw some light on this?

Cheers

Sam

mohan
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Post by mohan »

There are still a few top artistes from the Pillai community but over the last 100 years South Indian classical music and dance has been clearly dominated by members of the Brahmin community

chalanata
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Post by chalanata »

the isai vellalar community suffix thier names with 'pillai'. they are large in numbers even today contributing to cm but the word 'pillai' has gone into hiding like the way 'iyer' has gone in to oblivion.

kmrasika
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Post by kmrasika »

Well, some of the famous ones: Tanjore Quartette(http://www.tanjorequartet.org/), lakshmaN piLLai, KC kEShava piLLai, mAyUram (Samuel) vEdanAyakam piLLai, mArimuttA piLLai, cittUr subrahmaNya piLLai, KN daNDAyudapAni piLLai, T rAjaratnam piLLai, kAncIpuram naina piLLai, pazhani subrahmaNya piLLai, and kErikkAd gOpAlan piLLai.
Last edited by kmrasika on 08 Jun 2007, 08:29, edited 1 time in total.

Sam Swaminathan
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Post by Sam Swaminathan »

Kmrasika....that is a very interesting and facinating list.....it would be very nice to hear from the families of the names mentioned in your list and learn from them some interesting anecdotes about their elders and as to what the current generation is doing in terms of carnatic music and dance....

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

A bit of nitpicking...
Most of the Pillais from Kerala are an offshoot of the Nair community, unlike the Vellala Pillais of TN. KC Keshava Pillai (a great Malayalam poet) belongs to the Kerala variety.

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

Thampis (of Kerala) are also classified under "PiLLais". Thampis, I understand, are sons born of Kings of Travancore through nAyar women. Is iRaiyamman Thampi (the famous composer of Travancore court) included in the PiLLai community?

Lakshman
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Post by Lakshman »

Here are some additions:
Pandanallur Minakshisundaram Pillai, K.P.Kittappa Pillai, violinist Rajamanikkam Pillai, Ammachatram Kannusami Pillai, Desika Vinayakam Pillai, C.S.Natarajasundaram Pillai, Fiddle Ponnusami Pillai, Pudukotai Dakshinamurti Pillai, K.Natesa Pillai and M Arunachalam Pillai..

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

Lakshman- K.Natesan Pillai is KOrainADu Natesan pillai? He has composed several varNas in uncommon tALas.

Lakshman
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Post by Lakshman »

Yes he is the one.

baboosh
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Post by baboosh »

chalanata wrote:the isai vellalar community suffix thier names with 'pillai'. they are large in numbers even today contributing to cm but the word 'pillai' has gone into hiding like the way 'iyer' has gone in to oblivion.
What you say is right.Isai velalar community as it is now called were previously called Chinna melam and peria melam communities where they were supposed to do nattuvangam and also Nagasvaram and Thavil players were largely from this community.They were also attached to temples.

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Is iRaiyamman Thampi (the famous composer of Travancore court) included in the PiLLai community?
Well, you could say indirectly.
Nairs are the superset under whom you have several variations like Pillai, Menon, Kurup, Thampan, Thampi, Nambiar, Panicker, Varma, etc. In addition to, of course, Nair itself. The Varmas tend to have royal connnections.

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

I don't see mAyUram GOvindarAja piLLai in the list. Also it is kURainADu not kOrainADu if you are talking about the suburb of mAyUram. That place (kURainADu) is famous for the supply of kURaipuDavai (9 yards saree) for weddings, hence the name-- a veritable toponym.

ravi2006
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Post by ravi2006 »

kmrasika wrote:Well, some of the famous ones: Tanjore Quartette(http://www.tanjorequartet.org/), lakshmaN piLLai, KC kEShava piLLai, mAyUram (Samuel) vEdanAyakam piLLai, mArimuttA piLLai, cittUr subrahmaNya piLLai, KN daNDAyudapAni piLLai, T rAjaratnam piLLai, kAncIpuram naina piLLai, pazhani subrahmaNya piLLai, and kErikkAd gOpAlan piLLai.
I remember reading in Sruti's feature about Cittur Subrahmanya Pillai that he was by birth a Brahmin but adopted the title of Pillai out of respect for his guru Naina Pillai - an honorary Pillai one could say.

Sam Swaminathan
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Post by Sam Swaminathan »

Nadaswaram/tavil branch of carnatic musicians was and probably is, dominated by people from Pillai community. Could some one provide a list of stalwarts in this line?

Cheers

Sam

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Jayaram... Nairs are Kerala Brahmins, right?

You say that they are a superset underwhich come Pillai, Menon, etc etc... So those communities are Brahmin, or not?

If the wider discussion of this caste/community aspect is considered way off [musical] topic, so be it, and fair enough. Just, as I'm sure you can imagine, it is somewhat baffling to us foreigners sometimes....

(Not, by the way, seeking to make any kind of judgements here, just seeking to understand a bit more)

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

nickH:
So long as we discusss the caste situation in laudatory terms it is OK to talk about it. nAyars are not brahmins. As Jayaram said they occupy the ranks of the warrior class (loosely called kshatriyAs, I guess). Among the KEraLA brahmins are the sub-classes: nambUdiris, bhaTTAdiris, ayyars, etc.
Last edited by mahakavi on 09 Jun 2007, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Whatever various castes are good at, not good at--does not matter as much. Even if the lists of various castes continues, what matters to us is the musical endowment in them all...
Last edited by arasi on 09 Jun 2007, 20:55, edited 1 time in total.

bhaktha
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Post by bhaktha »

arasi wrote:Whatever various castes are good at, not good at--does not matter as much. Even if the lists of various castes continues, what matters to us is the musical endowment in them all...
Hear...hear!! well said ma'am!:)
-bhaktha

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Well, the musical abilities of an individual are what matters, whatever their background.

Although it must make a difference, in purely practical terms, to be brought up in a musical household, I have always thought rather too much is made of who so-and-so's grandfather was, etc etc!

And I think there are some musicians who would rather be known by their own name and ability than identified by their relatives.

But this is all, errr... relative? ;)

and I have already learnt something new to me from mahakavi's post.

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Nick - without knowing it, you may have opened a mini Pandora's box of sorts... Let me explain:
It is the Varmas, Rajas (and a few others like Thampi) amongst the Nair superset that are associated with the royalty, i.e. the Kshatriya caste. Most other Nairs do not necessarily come under kshatriya grouping. Some scholars have argued that Nairs are actually Sudras - which is considered the 4th group in the varna system. You can imagine the emotional reactions such views can elicit!

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

nickH:
To follow up on the (artificial) classifications, the great poet Bharathi declared,
"kuppaiyilE malar konjum kurukkattik koDi vaLarAdO?"
(Even from the garbage heap there grow some creepers with beautiful flowers.)
Most people don't realize the wisdom in such a verse. Gems are unearthed from unexpected places. Likewise filth exists in the most unsuspected places.

So it is all relative! Where you came from does not matter, what you are does!

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Well, I wanted to avoid any of Ms Pandora's boxes. We can rant and rave about the unfairness etc etc of the world's various class systems anytime, but on this occasion, I wanted just to learn.

So I'm grateful for the input

kns
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Post by kns »

Sam Swaminathan wrote:Nadaswaram/tavil branch of carnatic musicians was and probably is, dominated by people from Pillai community. Could some one provide a list of stalwarts in this line?

Cheers

Sam
following stalwards immediately come to mind:

Nadaswaram:
Thiruvadudurai Rajarathnam Pillai
Tiruvengadu Subramania Pillai
Karukurichi Arunachalam
Thiruveezhimizhalai Brothers(Subramania Pillai & Natarajasundaram Pillai)
Vedaranyam Vedamurthy
Natchiyarkoil Duo(Rajam & Duraikannu) - heard they were priming to be the best duo ever, when they unfortunately seperated due to unknown reasons
Tirupambaram Brothers

Thavil:
Needamangalathar
Natchiyarkoil Ragava Pillai(prime disciple of needamangalathar)
Yazhpanam Dakshinamurthy Pillai
valaigaiman shanmugasundaram
Vallayapatti Subramaniam(?)

Sundara Rajan
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Post by Sundara Rajan »

The topic has indeed strayed a lot from the original question ! Yes, there are AT PRESENT very few performing carnatic artists, especially vocal, from communities other than brahmins in Tamil Nadu. The only few I can think of are Sirkazhi Sivachidambaram( if one can call him a musician !) and of course Yesudas (including him among Tamils) The question is "Why none or so few from the other communities ?" Does any one care to take a guess ?

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

The so called brahmins who perform CM today are indeed 'brahmabandhu' :) Hence there is indeed no distinction by caste!

bhaktha
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Post by bhaktha »

AFAIK,
Tiruvaroor Shri Bhakthavatsalam belongs to the pillai community too and what a great boon he is to cm.
-bhaktha

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

SIrgAzhi Sivacidambaram is a brahmin, I thought!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

He was the son of SIrgAzhi GovindarAjan!
TMS is a brahmin (Iyengar?).
Many of the oldtime movie actors (both men and women) were not brahmins. It may not be a news to know that MS is not a brahmin woman though she was 'declared' to be one by mahA periyavAL himself!
Many of the 63 nAyanmaar as well as AzhvArs were not brahmins.
Very clearly Music was never the private property of any community. It is the 19th century which was a dark chapter in CM history in this respect!

arasi
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Post by arasi »

mahakavi,
kOlam azhiyum, kAlamum thAn
kulam azhiyAdO?

kOlams get erased, Time too,
won't castes get erased too?
Sigh...
Last edited by arasi on 10 Jun 2007, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

Sundara Rajan
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Post by Sundara Rajan »

If I remember correctly, Dr. sIrkhAzhi Sivachidambaram is a veterinary doctor and son of late sIrkhAzhi Govindarajan. He is also considered a "musician" by virtue of his father's popularity. Please correct me, if I am wrong. I have no first hand information, except through the media.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Do we really need to get into all this stuff about communities and castes ?

Sathej
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Post by Sathej »

Arasi Madam,
Wish the same!
Coolji,
Agree with you. The Sangeetham of the musician is more important than his/her caste.
Sathej

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

vidhiyA alladu madhiyA? (Is it fate or the (Machiavellian) brain?)

kOlam sidhaindadu (kOlam got destroyed)
kAlattin sUdhAl (due to the conspiracy of time)
gnAlam naDungudu (the earth shakes)
sIlam odungudu (virtue retreats)

One is forced to ask a la kaNNagi in SilappadhikAram;

"tErA mannA seppuvaduDaiyEn......"
??????????
Last edited by mahakavi on 10 Jun 2007, 20:48, edited 1 time in total.

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

>>kOlam azhiyum, kAlamum thAn <<

kOlam azhiyum, azhikkavum paDum (kOlam disappears but also deliberately gets erased)
AnAl kAlam azhivadillai (but Time goes on forever)

arasi:
Time is both linear and cyclic. It does not end.

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

cmlover:
I am not a subscriber to the flawed concept that CM is an exclusive asset/trait of the brahmins. In my book everybody is a brahmin who is virtuous, not conceited, and upholds morality in the broadest term.

Lest people should misunderstand, this thread was not started with the intention of discussing caste issues. The person who started this thread wondered whatever happened to the great tradition started and maintained by the PiLLai community who more or less reigned the CM world for ages.

I would venture to answer that question in this manner. Whatever happened to all the preistly brahmin class? It was supposed to be the exclusive territory of brahmins to preach the scriptures. How many are left there? They migrated to other fields. Just like that most of the piLLai community folks moved on from the field of music to which they did immense service.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I am happy to note the liberal outlook among some of our Indians these days though the general trend is hifting towards parochial community outlook. I remember once when a person prostrated to gandhiji taking him to be a brahmin Gandhiji smilingly admonished him that he was a vaishya. In spite of all his liberalism Gandhiji did not launch a fight against 'varNAshrama' though he wanted the 'harijans' to be included in all activities.

Looking at US politics (and elsewhere) one cannot but help feel the strong currents of divisive 'fundamentalism' getting rampant. Setting our house right alone will not be enough to survive in this world!

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

Yes, cmlover, I agree with you. But someone has to light a candle (to remove the darkness0 and we should not hesitate to do so. GKB and SB (the mahAkavi) lit the flame and we all should keep it from getting extinguished. Never mind what others do.

bhaktha
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Post by bhaktha »

cmlover wrote:TMS is a brahmin (Iyengar?).
If you are referring to the legendary playback singer of yester years, then: TMS is a saurashtrian and also a n.brahmin...No offence meant...just reporting a fact.
-bhaktha

annapoorne
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Post by annapoorne »

I am reminded of the words of the " King" (Nedumudi Venu) in the film "His Highness Abdullah"......."brahma gnanam petravan brahmanan"..........and the closing verses of the hit song of this movie " Anandam anandAnandham jagadAnandam sangitam"

rajeshnat
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Post by rajeshnat »

Sundara Rajan wrote:If I remember correctly, Dr. sIrkhAzhi Sivachidambaram is a veterinary doctor and son of late sIrkhAzhi Govindarajan.
Sivachidambaram is indeed the son of Shri govindarAjan , and is a medical doctor studied MD (not a verterinary doctor)

srkris
Site Admin
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Post by srkris »

Guys please discuss about "castes in music" and not about "casteist music" ;). I've reopened the thread with this request.

baboosh
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Post by baboosh »

cmlover wrote:He was the son of SIrgAzhi GovindarAjan!
TMS is a brahmin (Iyengar?).
Many of the oldtime movie actors (both men and women) were not brahmins. It may not be a news to know that MS is not a brahmin woman though she was 'declared' to be one by mahA periyavAL himself!
Many of the 63 nAyanmaar as well as AzhvArs were not brahmins.
Very clearly Music was never the private property of any community. It is the 19th century which was a dark chapter in CM history in this respect!
Dear Sir,
I dont think Mahaperiyava ever declared MSS as brahmin though he had a soft corner for the couple because of their un flinching devotion and philanthrophy.He was known to be very steadfast in his views and would not compromise.

Sam Swaminathan
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Post by Sam Swaminathan »

Hi all

With great difficulty a few of us have convinced srkris to open the topic again for further discussions, but to, restrict ourselves to the subject matter..which is "Musicians from Pillai community"

I would be grateful if this is respected.

thanks and regards
Last edited by Sam Swaminathan on 13 Jun 2007, 08:48, edited 1 time in total.

knandago2001
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Post by knandago2001 »

Tiruvarur Ramaswamy Pillai – vaggeyakara
Compositions include ekkalattilum unnai maravaamale (poorvikalyani) and jagadeesvari (mohanam)

Dandaayudhapaani Pillai – natyachaarya and vaggeyakara
aayiram aayiram (charukesi), sakhiye indha jaalam (sankarabharanam) and dhim taana nana dhim dhim dhim tirana (hindolam) are some of his compositions

Konnakole Pakkiria Pillai – the legend was a champion of sukhaanubhavam, a connoisseur of Balasaraswati’s dance and an ardent devotee of Muruga

Vazhuvoor Ramiah Pillai – natyachaarya
He is also credited with having recited tandava jatis (not customarily included in Bharatanatyam) at the Tamil Isai Sangam during the pann research conference

Kanchipuram Kandappa Pillai – natyachaarya and laya vidwan
Ponniah Pillai (father of Kittappa Pillai and uncle of Kandappa Pillai), wondered if his nephew could choreograph an item using a jatiswaram in sankeerna nadai composed by him and have it performed within a month. Kandappa Pillai apparently did it in one week! He is said to have prepared the number – it was in Poorvikalyani – trained Balasaraswati in it and had her perform it in her very next recital

Thanjavur K.P. Sivanandam – vainika vidwan
Also proficient in vocal music and nattuvangam; custodian of a hoary tradition, he collaborated with his brother Kittappa Pillai in publishing the compositions of the Tanjore Quartet and those of Ponniah Pillai for posterity

Malakkottai Govindaswamy Pillai – violin vidwan
He was the venerable guru of Papa Venkatramiah; Veena Dhanammal apparently referred to him as a thambi who was also a paramarasika!

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

vazhuvUr rAmaiAh piLLai - illustrious guru of the incomparable Kamala Lakshman. Has also choreographed many of the dances Kamala performed for movies...including, IIRC, the one in Sarangadhara that was discussed in the Sahitya section here - mArimuttu piLLai's 'EDukkitanai mODi'.

Sundara Rajan
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Post by Sundara Rajan »

All the above luminaries are from the PAST. The original question from Sam is " Are there AT PRESENT any musicians from the Pillai community, and if not what happened to this erstwhile prolific community vis a vis carnatic music?" Repeating my statement in my post No. 25, there are very few from ANY community other than Brahmins in this field AT PRESENT, especially in Tamil Nadu. Has carnatic music become the domain of one community in Tamil Nadu ? I am not sure I know the reason for this parochialism. May be they moved on to greener pastures !

Sundara Rajan
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Post by Sundara Rajan »

I hasten to correct the misunderstanding of my statement. Whether one is excluded or whether one excludes oneself from a unit is "parochialism". I meant it in the later sense and asked why have they not participated or made themselves felt in the music field and DID NOT MEAN that the brahmins excluded them ! That is why I had concluded my statement with the suggestion that they, on their own accord, moved on to greener pastures.

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

nickH/Sundara Rajan/Sam:

I still do not see any problem here while we discuss the dearth of piLLai musicians at present (I suggested before that many from that community moved out of the field--either disenchanted or just looking for something else) as opposed to the splendor that prevailed when there were so many of them a generation or two ago.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

I remember a thread from the BB of Sangeetham about one Kartgeisan piLLai from South Africa which went beserk with posts of all kinds.
piLLai also means a son, child. How about steering the thread to 'piLLais of musicians'? Progenies of musicians or Generations of Musicians? I bet Sam wouldn't mind :)

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