Carbon Fiber flutes for Carnatic Music

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
Vayoo Flute
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#26 Re: Carbon Fiber flutes for Carnatic Music

Post by Vayoo Flute » 13 Jun 2018, 09:16

:D Thanks for the paper. I have read this one many years ago and others arriving at the same conclusion. However, having made flutes of different materials, I cannot accept these conclusions. The vibration of the body around the blow hole and the particular tone holes do give very perceivable tonal differences. The different materials have different blow resistances, which call for different amount of blow force, which in itself will produce varying tonal colour. The varying rigidity of the materials will also produce different responsiveness.

The tonal variations are greatest at the lowest registers. At the higher registers, the tonal differences are much smaller, but with some materials, it is easier to produce the higher registers.

The above comments are purely based on my observations, however biassed or unbiassed they may be. :D
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uday_shankar
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#27 Re: Carbon Fiber flutes for Carnatic Music

Post by uday_shankar » 13 Jun 2018, 20:13

vayoo flute,
Empirical/experimental data is always more valuable than theories. I don;t dispute that material makes a difference.

That said, some theoretical "model" is necessary to work with... and the first order model of flute doesn't include wall material.

I have another desperate need... I need to coat the carbon fiber with something like epoxy or teflon, it is too rough as it is and I cannot lubricate that out of existence... any insights ? what will stick, how to prep the surface, etc etc...
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Vayoo Flute
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#28 Re: Carbon Fiber flutes for Carnatic Music

Post by Vayoo Flute » 14 Jun 2018, 00:58

Uday:

I have not been able to get a clear picture of your slide mechanism from the available videos. Is the slide a tube, sliding over another tube? If so, are you using the carbon fiber tube as the slide or the flute wall?

You will be aware that there are different types of carbon tubes, some smooth and some not so. Which type are you using (uni-directional, pullbraided, fabric-weave)? The pullbraided ones have the smoothest and glossiest outer finish.
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uday_shankar
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#29 Re: Carbon Fiber flutes for Carnatic Music

Post by uday_shankar » 14 Jun 2018, 05:20

Vayoo flute:

I'm basically using a rectangular block of cross section about 8.5mm X 3mm and about 28 inces in length to slide over a slot cut on the pipe. The inside of the pipe is circular but the outside is square (sort of) so the flat 8.5mm side of the slide can slide over the slot. There are mechanisms to guide the the slide in a channel, etc... The "lecture demo" video on my website www.chitravenu.org has so top view footage at the beginning.

Here's the part I am using, cut to size:

http://www.graphitestore.com/carbon-fib ... l-ae001630
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Vayoo Flute
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#30 Re: Carbon Fiber flutes for Carnatic Music

Post by Vayoo Flute » 14 Jun 2018, 06:41

So if I understand, the rectangular sliding strip is carbon fiber but the cylindrical wall of the flute is either wood or metal. In that case I do not see that carbon fiber is going to add much value except perhaps make the sliding strip really light and rigid. You want a slider that slides easily and at the same time, provides an air-tight covering. For that, both the slider and the surface over which it is sliding should combine well. Is my understanding correct?
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uday_shankar
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#31 Re: Carbon Fiber flutes for Carnatic Music

Post by uday_shankar » 14 Jun 2018, 11:58

Vayoo Flute wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 06:41
So if I understand, the rectangular sliding strip is carbon fiber but the cylindrical wall of the flute is either wood or metal. In that case I do not see that carbon fiber is going to add much value except perhaps make the sliding strip really light and rigid. You want a slider that slides easily and at the same time, provides an air-tight covering. For that, both the slider and the surface over which it is sliding should combine well. Is my understanding correct?
Yes. I have made the pipe with extruded Aluminum and coated with teflon. So the idea of Carbon fiber is only for the slide and is mainly for 1) the light weight 2) durability (glass needs too much handling precautions and hence has a high attrition rate) 3) Glass is a constant source of tension for the player because it is glass !

Other than that glass works like a champion - seals, slides, etc... can't be beaten. After all it is extremely flat and elastic (i.e., returns to original state)... something which carbon fiber is not. I've found that I had to reject one out of three carbon fiber pieces because of slight bow shaped bend which cannot be removed (tried to compress them with weight between two super flat surfaces, basically glass slabs, but to no avail). In contrast, bends in the float glass slide stock that I buy are extremely rare...

The teflon coated Aluminum "combines" well with glass slide. Need to coat carbon fiber similarly so it "combines" well with teflon. Or find some other coating on the Aluminum which combines well with the coating on the carbon fiber slide.

I tried sanding the carbon fiber rod surface with extra fine grit wet sanding paper (grit 1500, 2000 and 3000) but with bad results... it just took of the resin and made it more bare... so bad idea.
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Vayoo Flute
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#32 Re: Carbon Fiber flutes for Carnatic Music

Post by Vayoo Flute » 14 Jun 2018, 18:31

Something like ebonite strips might work better for your slide.

If you want to stick with carbon fiber, you might try coating the underside and the surface over which it slides with shellac. I have used this successfully in a carrom board. Or you can try to stick a layer of felt (billiard table type) on one of the surfaces.
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uday_shankar
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#33 Re: Carbon Fiber flutes for Carnatic Music

Post by uday_shankar » 14 Jun 2018, 19:42

Vayoo Flute wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 18:31
Something like ebonite strips might work better for your slide.

If you want to stick with carbon fiber, you might try coating the underside and the surface over which it slides with shellac. I have used this successfully in a carrom board. Or you can try to stick a layer of felt (billiard table type) on one of the surfaces.
Cool. Thanks for the ideas... Will check all of it !
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