Music and Caste

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
RSR
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#26 Re: Music and Caste

Post by RSR » 16 May 2018, 21:41

a passage from Anandi's article..."கல்கி புனைந்திருந்த 'மாலைப் பொழுதிலிலே' பாடலும், ரசிகர்களுக்கு ஒரு புதிய அனுபவத்தை அளித்தது. இதற்கும் எஸ்.வி. வெங்கட்ராமனே இசையத்திருந்தார். நான் நாயகியாகவும், ராதா முருகப் பெருமானாகவும் நடனமாடினோம். அன்று அது ஒரு புதிய உத்தி. வேடம் போட்டு ஆடவில்லை. தனித்தனியாக பாவம் பிடிப்பதில், அது ஒரு புதிய நாடக பாணியாக அமைந்தது. புள்ளி மயில் வீரன் மோஹனப் புன்னகை தான் புரிந்தான் என்று ராதா கள்ளமற்ற சிரிப்புச் சிரித்ததும் சபையோர் சிரித்து மகிழ்ந்தனர்.
Image

ஒரு பரத நாட்டிய அரங்கேற்றம். மூன்று மணி நேரமும் ஆடியவர்கள் பன்னிரண்டு வயதுக்குட்பட்ட சிறுமிகள், சம்பிரதாயமான, ஆனால் புதுமையான உடை அலங்காரங்கள், அளவான மேக்அப், திருத்தமான நடனம், உயர்ந்த சங்கீதம், கச்சிதமாக எடிட் செய்யப்பட்ட உருப்படிகள், மயிலை சங்கீத சபாவின் சிறந்த ரசிகர்கள், என்று நிகழ்சசியின் வெற்றிக்குப் பல காரணங்கள். எல்லாமே தமிழ் உருப்படிகளாக இருந்ததால், சிறிது கூடத் தொய்வு ஏற்படவில்லையென்பதில் கல்கி, . டி.கே.சி இருவருக்கும் பெருமிதம்.
there are some posters of the occasion here

https://www.msstribute.org/people/aduvome-paduvome.php
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martha_krishna
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#27 Re: Music and Caste

Post by martha_krishna » 17 May 2018, 01:10

harimau wrote:
16 May 2018, 20:04
martha_krishna wrote:
16 May 2018, 00:01

Sir, thank you for logically bringing the sweet nagas into the discussion, I will research the answer when I have the time ( sigh, I really need to finish my PhD thesis (computational neuroscience (er pseudo science))), kindly have a look at this pretty neat write up regarding dangers of race "science" you sprinkled liberally above

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... bell-curve

I am once again glad you are airing your views. I know for a fact that lot of people hold these beliefs (even I did) in some form or the other, some of it not really examined. I look forward to hearing more of your learnings of science and history in the thread.
You throw me The Bell Curve and I throw at you

https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-i ... 15826.html

:) can I please please guess your next point

"When you are sick, will you get treated by a doctor who only became a doctor due to affirmative action?"
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ramamatya
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#28 Re: Music and Caste

Post by ramamatya » 17 May 2018, 07:21

shankarank wrote:
16 May 2018, 17:48
How many people heard of Lalgudi Gopala Iyer? What about SSI's father? What about GNB's father? What about SSI's sons? What about KVN's father and KVN's sons? MDR's sons? MDR himself - how many people flocked to him? He was being given a chance in prestigious venues - actually - all through his life. They ignored him because his father didn't sing?
This is like asking how many had heard of Prithviraj kapoor, father of raj kapoor and so on and so forth. There is nepotism there, same way in Carnatic too. Its the families that give the sons/daughters the break.
shankarank wrote:
16 May 2018, 17:48

People don't flock to them because they are from musical families. There may be a causation - musicians who have family support and impetus may be persistent to push their art in the face of odds, but you are making a correlation out of it. After they succeed initially, the bio-data talks about the music in their family etc. That is just a filler material!
There may be, no, there is causation and that is all what one requires to succeed. Tell me one musician who succeeded initially due to family support and then went down the drain. CM is a small field. Once you succeed, you succeed and continue. There is no looking back. There are no big bucks involved. So, you just keep rolling.
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harimau
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#29 Re: Music and Caste

Post by harimau » 17 May 2018, 07:23

martha_krishna wrote:
17 May 2018, 01:10
harimau wrote:
16 May 2018, 20:04
martha_krishna wrote:
16 May 2018, 00:01

Sir, thank you for logically bringing the sweet nagas into the discussion, I will research the answer when I have the time ( sigh, I really need to finish my PhD thesis (computational neuroscience (er pseudo science))), kindly have a look at this pretty neat write up regarding dangers of race "science" you sprinkled liberally above

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... bell-curve

I am once again glad you are airing your views. I know for a fact that lot of people hold these beliefs (even I did) in some form or the other, some of it not really examined. I look forward to hearing more of your learnings of science and history in the thread.
You throw me The Bell Curve and I throw at you

https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-i ... 15826.html

:) can I please please guess your next point

"When you are sick, will you get treated by a doctor who only became a doctor due to affirmative action?"
Wrong!

How does it feel to be in a Science, Technology, Engineering and Management (STEM) program just on the basis that you are an URM (under-represented minority)? :evil: :twisted: :lol:

But all the Dravidian politicians have responded to the point you suppose is mine: their lawyers, accountants and doctors are Brahmins!
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harimau
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#30 Re: Music and Caste

Post by harimau » 17 May 2018, 07:39

martha_krishna wrote:
17 May 2018, 01:10
harimau wrote:
16 May 2018, 20:04
martha_krishna wrote:
16 May 2018, 00:01

Sir, thank you for logically bringing the sweet nagas into the discussion, I will research the answer when I have the time ( sigh, I really need to finish my PhD thesis (computational neuroscience (er pseudo science))), kindly have a look at this pretty neat write up regarding dangers of race "science" you sprinkled liberally above

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... bell-curve

I am once again glad you are airing your views. I know for a fact that lot of people hold these beliefs (even I did) in some form or the other, some of it not really examined. I look forward to hearing more of your learnings of science and history in the thread.
You throw me The Bell Curve and I throw at you

https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-i ... 15826.html

:) can I please please guess your next point

"When you are sick, will you get treated by a doctor who only became a doctor due to affirmative action?"
There was an article in The Hindu about a month ago.

It said that memorizing and chanting the Vedas causes enlargement and thickening of the cerebral cortex. Listening to Western classical music also had a similar effect; however, the latter was only a temporary phenomenon whereas with the former, the effect was permanent. As a computational neuroticscientist, you may find that fascinating.

Shouldn't the non-Brahmins then rush to enroll in Veda Patashalas rather than medical and engineeering colleges? After all, 5000 years of claimed discrimination in education was really excluding them from the Veda Patashalas as there were no medical, engineering or law colleges till the British arrived.

And remember, in the early days surgery was performed by the barber community.

Given a choice between an Affirmative Action doctor who took 8 years to graduate from medical school and a Brahmin who graduated at the top of his class, whom would you choose to treat your child? :) :lol: :lol:
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sureshvv
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#31 Re: Music and Caste

Post by sureshvv » 17 May 2018, 09:52

harimau wrote:
17 May 2018, 07:39
Given a choice between an Affirmative Action doctor who took 8 years to graduate from medical school and a Brahmin who graduated at the top of his class, whom would you choose to treat your child? :) :lol: :lol:

Marks really don't have anything to do with how good a Doctor is. There are many aspects to being a good Doctor that are not evaluated by examinations, such as being empathetic, listening and communicating clearly etc. etc. This obsession with being a topper is stupid and short sighted.
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shankarank
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#32 Re: Music and Caste

Post by shankarank » 17 May 2018, 10:13

ramamatya wrote:
17 May 2018, 07:21
This is like asking how many had heard of Prithviraj kapoor, father of raj kapoor and so on and so forth.
You are taking an example from Pan India. I am talking about the "small" field CM. I am restricting to Tanjore only. I heard of Raj Kapoor himself only on the day of his death - as Doordarshan started mourning. Doordarshan had arrived only a year back from then. And I am sure many of my friends too. So be careful selecting your example.

ramamatya wrote:
17 May 2018, 07:21
Tell me one musician who succeeded initially due to family support and then went down the drain. CM is a small field. Once you succeed, you succeed and continue. There is no looking back. There are no big bucks involved. So, you just keep rolling.
Once you succeed , why should you fail. Many of them actually did. Veena Gayathri for example. S P Ramh and so on. They may still perform , but that is not success compared to the initial success. Many families have successfully killed good budding musicians as well. An excellent student of Vidvan Sabesha Iyer - Mridangam teacher from KumbakONam - father of Poongulam Subramaniam. Have you heard of Poongulam Subramaniam? ;) . Are mridangists musicians in your world by the way? :lol:
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talalaya
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#33 Re: Music and Caste

Post by talalaya » 17 May 2018, 11:52

sureshvv wrote:
17 May 2018, 09:52
Marks really don't have anything to do with how good a Doctor is. There are many aspects to being a good Doctor that are not evaluated by examinations, such as being empathetic, listening and communicating clearly etc. etc. This obsession with being a topper is stupid and short sighted.
You chose to sidestep the valid Question raised by Harimau, but chose instead to ask an irrelevant Question? The chief Doctor to an Athiest Politician in Tamil Nadu is a Brahmin Topper. So are/ were his advocates. A Communist CM, got admitted to a Private Hospital @ Chennai to get treated by Meritorious doctors when he had the opportunity to get admitted at a Govt Hospital, where Doctors became Doctors by virtue of reservations.
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ramamatya
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#34 Re: Music and Caste

Post by ramamatya » 17 May 2018, 13:11

People specialize in drifting away from the point.

What I said was there are real CM-centric issues like musician-families and their nepotism (and by the way what made you think mridangists are not musicians to stoop down to a disgusting mockery of a laughter icon); issues of payment; importance of vocalists over instrumentalists etc. Caste issue is too general to unnecessarily fit into the CM ecosystem.
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RSR
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#35 Re: Music and Caste

Post by RSR » 17 May 2018, 14:50

nice article in tamilthehindu. ( about varkari sect and abangs) . Not music for music's sake but music as a means of achieving absolute social equality through the path of devotion to divinity..
Reminded of Smt.MSS's Tukaram bajans.
http://tamil.thehindu.com/society/spiri ... epage=true
----------------------------------------------
the para that I liked.."சில நாட்கள் கழித்து, சாஸ்திரங்களை அறிந்த பண்டிதர்கள் நிறைந்த கிராமத்துக்குச் சென்று, இதற்கு ஏதேனும் பரிகாரம் உண்டா என்பதை அறிந்து வரலாம் என்றும், பின்னர் தனது அண்ணா நிவிர்த்திக்கு மணம் முடிக்கலாம் என்றும் கருத்துத் தெரிவித்தாள் முக்தாபாய். சகோதரர்களும் ஒப்புக்கொள்ள அனைவரும் புறப்பட்டார்கள். பண்டிதர்கள் திண்ணைதோறும் அமர்ந்து வேதம் சொல்லிக்கொண்டிருந்த ஊருக்கு வந்தார்கள்.
இவர்கள் வருவதைப் பார்த்து, வேதம் சொல்லிக்கொண்டிருந்ததை இடையிலேயே சிலர் நிறுத்திவிட்டார்கள். இவர்கள் ஊருக்கு வந்த காரணத்தைக் கேட்டார்கள். நால்வரும் காரணத்தைச் சொல்ல, வேத பண்டிதர்கள் எள்ளி நகையாடினார்கள். இதைப் பார்த்து ஆதிபராசக்தி ரூபமான முக்தாபாய் வெகுண்டாள்.
“எனது அண்ணா கூறினால், இதோ இங்கே மேய்ச்சல் முடிந்து கடந்து போகிறதே, அந்த எருமை மாடுகூட வேதம் சொல்லும்” என்றாள். “எங்கே சொல்லச் சொல் பார்க்கலாம்” என்றார்கள் அப்பண்டிதர்கள். நிவிர்த்தி கையை அசைக்க எருமை நின்றது, பண்டிதர்கள் இருக்கும் திசை நோக்கிப் பார்த்தது.
மிக அரிய சாம வேதத்தைக் கானம் செய்தது.
இவர்களின் மிக உயர்ந்த பாண்டித்தியத்தைக் கண்டு பண்டிதர்கள் அதிசயித்தார்கள். உயர்ந்த ஞானத்தைப் பெற்ற அவர்கள் இப்படியே இருந்துவிடுவதுதான் சமுதாயத்துக்கு நல்லது என்றனர். அவர்களும் அப்படியே இருந்து, உயர்ந்த ‘அபங்’ இயற்றிப் பாடி விட்டலைப் போற்றி வந்தனர்.
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shankarank
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#36 Re: Music and Caste

Post by shankarank » 17 May 2018, 18:20

ramamatya wrote:
17 May 2018, 13:11
People specialize in drifting away from the point.

What I said was there are real CM-centric issues like musician-families and their nepotism (and by the way what made you think mridangists are not musicians to stoop down to a disgusting mockery of a laughter icon); issues of payment; importance of vocalists over instrumentalists etc. Caste issue is too general to unnecessarily fit into the CM ecosystem.
Oh this is the all familiar: even many brahmins are not listening or getting opportunities. Musician families hold sway! This has been countered already. This is giving a privilege to certain group of people, saying they have the first rights to this before others get it.

If CM is performed in a stadium to a large audience , with mega ticket sales, we wouldn't be having this discussion. There will not be this forum. If you have become dumb not listen to instrumental music, then don't blame musician families.
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ramamatya
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#37 Re: Music and Caste

Post by ramamatya » 17 May 2018, 20:55

Reading your posts makes it clear that you do not have experience moving with musicians at close quarters, the struggles they go through at various stages, and esp ones without connections, family,or money. Instead of wasting my time having fruitless debates with the likes of you, let me try to make a difference in such musicians' lives, a few of whom I know among others. All the best with such unproductive debates/arguments.
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RSR
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#38 Re: Music and Caste

Post by RSR » 17 May 2018, 22:34

In continuation of the post at 26-> Here is a rough translation into English by Mrs.Gowry Ramnarayan, of her mother Mrs.Anandhi's ( Kalki's daughter) reminiscence about the Danace arangetram of Radha and Anandhi, sometime around 1945?
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... s-daughter
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sureshvv
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#39 Re: Music and Caste

Post by sureshvv » 18 May 2018, 09:31

talalaya wrote:
17 May 2018, 11:52
sureshvv wrote:
17 May 2018, 09:52
Marks really don't have anything to do with how good a Doctor is. There are many aspects to being a good Doctor that are not evaluated by examinations, such as being empathetic, listening and communicating clearly etc. etc. This obsession with being a topper is stupid and short sighted.
You chose to sidestep the valid Question raised by Harimau, but chose instead to ask an irrelevant Question? The chief Doctor to an Athiest Politician in Tamil Nadu is a Brahmin Topper. So are/ were his advocates. A Communist CM, got admitted to a Private Hospital @ Chennai to get treated by Meritorious doctors when he had the opportunity to get admitted at a Govt Hospital, where Doctors became Doctors by virtue of reservations.
No. I chose to educate harimau and inform others on really valid criteria that determine a "good" Doctor. It is definitely not being a Topper or a Brahmin.
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martha_krishna
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#40 Re: Music and Caste

Post by martha_krishna » 18 May 2018, 21:23

martha_krishna wrote:
17 May 2018, 01:10
harimau wrote:
16 May 2018, 20:04
martha_krishna wrote:
16 May 2018, 00:01

Sir, thank you for logically bringing the sweet nagas into the discussion, I will research the answer when I have the time ( sigh, I really need to finish my PhD thesis (computational neuroscience (er pseudo science))), kindly have a look at this pretty neat write up regarding dangers of race "science" you sprinkled liberally above

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... bell-curve

I am once again glad you are airing your views. I know for a fact that lot of people hold these beliefs (even I did) in some form or the other, some of it not really examined. I look forward to hearing more of your learnings of science and history in the thread.
You throw me The Bell Curve and I throw at you

https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-i ... 15826.html

:) can I please please guess your next point

"When you are sick, will you get treated by a doctor who only became a doctor due to affirmative action?"
hahaha, lovely. such predictable responses to this bait :) just wanted to put your TMK rebuttal thread in context of your worldview.
your rebuttal - right click - send to recycle bin
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harimau
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#41 Re: Music and Caste

Post by harimau » 19 May 2018, 01:58

martha_krishna wrote:
18 May 2018, 21:23
martha_krishna wrote:
17 May 2018, 01:10
harimau wrote:
16 May 2018, 20:04


You throw me The Bell Curve and I throw at you

https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-i ... 15826.html

:) can I please please guess your next point

"When you are sick, will you get treated by a doctor who only became a doctor due to affirmative action?"
hahaha, lovely. such predictable responses to this bait :) just wanted to put your TMK rebuttal thread in context of your worldview.
your rebuttal - right click - send to recycle bin
You may want to read the first post in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=22121

But that clashes with your worldview; rather, the BS (belief system) you have been fed since childhood. Your inability to examine that BS is typical of social discourse common in India and in particular in Tamil Nadu.

I am sure you fully deserve your BS, MS AND PhD (Piled Higher and Deeper) degrees.

So, tell me: if the Brahmins monopolized education in the Vedas and Sastras for 5,000 years as you guys complain, shouldn't you be demanding affirmative action in Veda Patashalas rather than in medical and engineering schools?

Answer that question and prove that you can think logically!

I suppose the Chettiars are to be excused for the atrociously usurious interest rates that they have charged for generations because the Brahmins did not teach them simple arithmetic. Now that they have entered mainstream education, I suppose they are charging the more humane 12-15% annual interest for loans.

If you buy that, I have a bridge I would want to sell you.

PS. You have, through your posts and refusal to answer direct questions, have shown yourself to be a complete idiot, incapable of thinking on your own.
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martha_krishna
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#42 Re: Music and Caste

Post by martha_krishna » 19 May 2018, 02:26

harimau wrote:
19 May 2018, 01:58
martha_krishna wrote:
18 May 2018, 21:23
martha_krishna wrote:
17 May 2018, 01:10



:) can I please please guess your next point

"When you are sick, will you get treated by a doctor who only became a doctor due to affirmative action?"
hahaha, lovely. such predictable responses to this bait :) just wanted to put your TMK rebuttal thread in context of your worldview.
your rebuttal - right click - send to recycle bin
You may want to read the first post in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=22121

But that clashes with your worldview; rather, the BS (belief system) you have been fed since childhood. Your inability to examine that BS is typical of social discourse common in India and in particular in Tamil Nadu.

I am sure you fully deserve your BS, MS AND PhD (Piled Higher and Deeper) degrees.

So, tell me: if the Brahmins monopolized education in the Vedas and Sastras for 5,000 years as you guys complain, shouldn't you be demanding affirmative action in Veda Patashalas rather than in medical and engineering schools?

Answer that question and prove that you can think logically!

I suppose the Chettiars are to be excused for the atrociously usurious interest rates that they have charged for generations because the Brahmins did not teach them simple arithmetic. Now that they have entered mainstream education, I suppose they are charging the more humane 12-15% annual interest for loans.

If you buy that, I have a bridge I would want to sell you.

PS. You have, through your posts and refusal to answer direct questions, have shown yourself to be a complete idiot, incapable of thinking on your own.
hahahahah - gyan gleaned from S gurumurthy - the repository of all knowledge
https://www.altnews.in/s-gurumurthy-rap ... n-twitter/
it all makes sense now.

and I so love you harimau. I really hope you do not actually get worked up reading these threads. maybe too much inertia to expand your world view and change for the better.
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harimau
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#43 Re: Music and Caste

Post by harimau » 19 May 2018, 02:46

Deleted. Duplicate post.
Last edited by harimau on 19 May 2018, 05:26, edited 2 times in total.
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harimau
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#44 Re: Music and Caste

Post by harimau » 19 May 2018, 04:36

sureshvv wrote:
17 May 2018, 09:52
harimau wrote:
17 May 2018, 07:39
Given a choice between an Affirmative Action doctor who took 8 years to graduate from medical school and a Brahmin who graduated at the top of his class, whom would you choose to treat your child? :) :lol: :lol:

Marks really don't have anything to do with how good a Doctor is. There are many aspects to being a good Doctor that are not evaluated by examinations, such as being empathetic, listening and communicating clearly etc. etc. This obsession with being a topper is stupid and short sighted.
I have a lot of empathy. Whenever someone comes to me with a problem, I take it upon myself to solve it no matter what it takes. In fact, I find it hard to disassociate myself from the situation when someone I know is sick. I have all along felt that I cannot be a good doctor because I would worry about patients even after I go home.

I have flipped through a few medical textbooks and can spout a bit of medical jargon. I have never been to medical school.

Can I be your family doctor on the basis my high Empathy Quotient? :lol:
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harimau
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#45 Re: Music and Caste

Post by harimau » 19 May 2018, 05:21

I love you too.

I absolutely love the way you guys are saying, "We have sh!t for brains and cannot compete on an equal footing, so give us special privileges for being stupid. We acknowledge the superiority of the Brahmins and we want to get the good jobs that they used to have but without putting in any effort. So just like you handicap race horses or excellent golfers, handicap the Brahmins".

By the way, that article, while written by S Gurumurthy, was quoting Sri Dharampal who was quoting from British official records. You can't even see that.

It is so easy to engage in an intellectual battle with an unarmed enemy like you!

PS. On the one hand, you guys are saying all persons are equal. On the other, you are simultaneously acknowledging the intellectual superiority of Brahmins and demand that there shouldn't be a level playing ground but one tilted in your favor. Do you see a contradiction in your positions or is your brain too feeble to see one?

PPS. I am not worked up at all. I type my posts with a smile on my face knowing how the rest of the world reacts to my postings.

PPPS. Is there a dumb pill I can take so that I can accept your worldview?

PPPPS. On reflection I realize that we are more in agreement than disagree with each other. You acknowledge the stupidity of the non-Brahmins and the intelligence of the Brahmins and demand that the non-brahmins be treated special. I agree with you wholeheartedl about the intellectual superiority of the Brahmins and inferiority of the non-Brahmins. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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SrinathK
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#46 Re: Music and Caste

Post by SrinathK » 19 May 2018, 06:44

Mods, please close this thread and ban this troll.
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#47 Re: Music and Caste

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 19 May 2018, 07:06

A locked thread, its revival and the result.
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sureshvv
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#48 Re: Music and Caste

Post by sureshvv » 19 May 2018, 11:22

Not sure who the troll is. It seems martha_krishna has been clued into harimau's weakness and is leveraging it.
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sureshvv
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#49 Re: Music and Caste

Post by sureshvv » 19 May 2018, 11:26

harimau wrote:
19 May 2018, 04:36
Can I be your family doctor on the basis my high Empathy Quotient? :lol:
No. You fail on the "should not be frothing in the mouth" criterion :D
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SrinathK
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#50 Re: Music and Caste

Post by SrinathK » 19 May 2018, 11:27

He has managed to bait the tiger rather successfully, without using any of the tiger's infamous (but irresistible) allergy causing foods like the snake song or the fat ghost or the tup-tup machine gun. :mrgreen:
Last edited by SrinathK on 19 May 2018, 15:51, edited 5 times in total.
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