Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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Vayoo Flute
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#1 Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Vayoo Flute » 08 Aug 2018, 20:34

There is news circulating around that some major artists like Nityashree Mahadevan, Unnikrishnan, Aruna Sairam, OS Arun have signed up with some Christian Mission to sell Tygaraja songs by replacing Rama, etc.. with Jesus.

If this is true it is highly disturbing. Even taking the religious argument out (although that itself is alarming given the fanatic attitude of these Missions), this seems so wrong. Firstly, it reeks of plagiarism. Secondly it is completely discrediting Tyagaraja and other composers who might be subject to this atrocity.

Your views please.
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Nick H
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#2 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Nick H » 08 Aug 2018, 20:38

There is news circulating
News circulating? Or Whatsapp forwarders trying to cause trouble?

Please see the thread called something like "broadbasing carnatic music" for something that might be genuine. This site is bad enough already without making it into an extension of the Whatsapp social division machine.

As and when it becomes real news, lets talk about it.
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SrinathK
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#3 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by SrinathK » 08 Aug 2018, 21:00

This whatsapp fake news has become an atrocity at one level. And when it is not that, it is usually some junk that you don't remember after 10 min anyway, let alone use to enhance life. Dumb creatures getting a dopamine high out of pressing that forward button while our attention span gets shorter than a goldfish and useless for deep work, and our neck vertebrae are asking for a permanent bend.

And when it's not that it is used for sending good morning messages to the world while the people who need it are in your own house, all for the sole ultimate purpose of being deleted when your phone memory is full.

Ok, here's my #fitness challenge - stay off social media for 48 hours totally. And the internet if possible. The shock of it could be more profound than meditation.
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shankarank
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#4 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by shankarank » 09 Aug 2018, 09:41

SrinathK wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 21:00
Ok, here's my #fitness challenge - stay off social media for 48 hours totally. And the internet if possible. The shock of it could be more profound than meditation.
Oh how much I long for the nice degree coffee and the hinDU pApar , with an incisive editorial or two, in the grand old Mylapore! Quite a , or even beyond a meditative experience :lol: :lol:
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girish_a
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#5 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by girish_a » 09 Aug 2018, 11:07

There is a tactic called "inculturation" that the Christians use. It involves mimicking the outward forms, usages, traditions, customs and rituals of native cultures with a view to attract gullible pagans. Something like bait and switch.

So I have serious misgivings about this. It is hard to assign benign intentions to a religious group which is actively and deliberately involved in the conversion of Indics to their exclusivist cult. People who sign up will eventually be weaned from the Hindu fold. This will turn into a gap, and the gap will become an abyss 3 or 4 generations down the line - the perfect ingredient for creating societal fissures and upheaval. India will be the victim of this perfidious game.

Most people do not know what inculturation means. I do not know if the artists sang Thyagaraja Kritis with Rama supplanted by Yesu. I will grant that this bit might be fake. However, what we ought to be vigilant against is Christians misusing and appropriating Carnatic music with devious intentions.

They are already building churches in the shape of temples. They are manufacturing lighting lamps with the image of Jesus embossed on them, just like the ones Hindus use at homes and temples. They have even started using elephants for Church processions. In Kerala, I have heard it is a common sight to see "temple pillars" in front of churches.

Carnatic Music is merely another weapon in the effort to convert India to Christianity. Remember what they did to Africa.

If you think this is not a serious problem, you are sadly mistaken. Missionaries are very active in the South, especially TN. Their intention is to eventually establish Christianity as the major religion in India. They are driven by the fundamentalist belief that Jesus alone has the keys to heaven.

I have been around in this forum long enough to know that there are people here with strong secular inclinations who will stand up to bigotry from conservative Hindus.

But this issue is not a trifle. Let me give you some interesting data. In Arunachal Pradesh, during the dark years of Sonia Gandhi's rule, the missionaries converted a full 13% of the population of that state to Christianity. From 18% in 2001, the Christians went to 31% in 2011 (check the census figures). If you think this is not serious, or that they have no plans for the rest of India, I have nothing more to say.

Head over to the Facebook page called "Noconversion". Watch some of the videos there. Chances are that you will understand what's going on. Or you can check his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/noconversion/videos

One familiar line from Freedom of Expression enthusiasts is "Christians are only 2% of the population. Why are Hindus who are in excess of 70% worried?". Well, the Church itself estimates that the Christians are 7% or 8%, but in any case, they have a determined, well funded, industrial scale conversion machine which involves evangelists, schools, media channels, judiciary, political parties, bureaucracy, international publications etc. to back them. The slothful, ignorant Hindus are no match for them. Don't be so sanguine.

The Church is a big danger, and we can ignore them at our own peril.
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talalaya
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#6 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by talalaya » 09 Aug 2018, 11:20

Brilliant Post!
girish_a wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 11:07
The Church is a big danger, and we can ignore them at our own peril.
Couldn't agree more
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SrinathK
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#7 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by SrinathK » 09 Aug 2018, 11:22

I was driving by the biggest church in town the other day, and remember seeing on the door "I am the door". It would be instantly clear to anyone what that is, but sadly it's all so easy to make that into a cult-ish message - it takes only one generation to turn truth into a religion. Personal feelings on religion and spirituality aside, I know what's going on underneath the veneers of idealism claimed by many religions. It's the world's oldest startup business, having learnt all the tricks of the trade long before the word 'startup' was even a thing. One must be extremely naive or willfully blind not to notice that.

And before we say 'secular' (the favourite word of the armchair idealists) - that's just the other side of the coin.

As I put it, the revelation becomes a revolution, the revolution becomes religion, and the religion ... eventually becomes a racket. So I leave it open to the thread to find out which of the 4 it is. :twisted: :lol:
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sureshvv
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#8 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by sureshvv » 09 Aug 2018, 13:42

girish_a wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 11:07
The slothful, ignorant Hindus are no match for them. Don't be so sanguine.
Hmmm... Hope this is not a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Hindus may need to capture the imagination of those who are left.
Last edited by sureshvv on 09 Aug 2018, 13:49, edited 2 times in total.
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kvjayan
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#9 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by kvjayan » 09 Aug 2018, 13:43

Amen!

It is difficult to miss wall posters in Chennai which proclaim:

Sadhu Chellapa, all night japam, during Amavasai (and Sadhu C with beard and saffron robes).

Padma Mudaliar, Muthu Iyer et al delivering all comforting "suviseshams".

Add to this our leading singers presenting a full length CD/programme on Yesunathar songs. And a unsuspecting rasika would be led to think "if my favorite vocalist sings on Yesu, there should be something in it" and sooner or later, Murthy becomes Moses and Sarita changes into Sara etc.

Of course, we are a secular country and proudly proclaim so.

Singing an occasional song in praise of Karthar during a two hour programme is quite different from a full length Yesu/Maria concert. But, we can not prevent popular Carnatic artists to earn their living as they deem fit. Besides, we are secular (we need to be constantly bombarded on this vital message).

Buddhists in South Korea are now almost a minority it seems and soon may become an endangered 'sect'.
girish_a wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 11:07
There is a tactic called "inculturation" that the Christians use. It involves mimicking the outward forms, usages, traditions, customs and rituals of native cultures with a view to attract gullible pagans. Something like bait and switch.

So I have serious misgivings about this. It is hard to assign benign intentions to a religious group which is actively and deliberately involved in the conversion of Indics to their exclusivist cult. People who sign up will eventually be weaned from the Hindu fold. This will turn into a gap, and the gap will become an abyss 3 or 4 generations down the line - the perfect ingredient for creating societal fissures and upheaval. India will be the victim of this perfidious game.

Most people do not know what inculturation means. I do not know if the artists sang Thyagaraja Kritis with Rama supplanted by Yesu. I will grant that this bit might be fake. However, what we ought to be vigilant against is Christians misusing and appropriating Carnatic music with devious intentions.

They are already building churches in the shape of temples. They are manufacturing lighting lamps with the image of Jesus embossed on them, just like the ones Hindus use at homes and temples. They have even started using elephants for Church processions. In Kerala, I have heard it is a common sight to see "temple pillars" in front of churches.

Carnatic Music is merely another weapon in the effort to convert India to Christianity. Remember what they did to Africa.

If you think this is not a serious problem, you are sadly mistaken. Missionaries are very active in the South, especially TN. Their intention is to eventually establish Christianity as the major religion in India. They are driven by the fundamentalist belief that Jesus alone has the keys to heaven.

I have been around in this forum long enough to know that there are people here with strong secular inclinations who will stand up to bigotry from conservative Hindus.

But this issue is not a trifle. Let me give you some interesting data. In Arunachal Pradesh, during the dark years of Sonia Gandhi's rule, the missionaries converted a full 13% of the population of that state to Christianity. From 18% in 2001, the Christians went to 31% in 2011 (check the census figures). If you think this is not serious, or that they have no plans for the rest of India, I have nothing more to say.

Head over to the Facebook page called "Noconversion". Watch some of the videos there. Chances are that you will understand what's going on. Or you can check his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/noconversion/videos

One familiar line from Freedom of Expression enthusiasts is "Christians are only 2% of the population. Why are Hindus who are in excess of 70% worried?". Well, the Church itself estimates that the Christians are 7% or 8%, but in any case, they have a determined, well funded, industrial scale conversion machine which involves evangelists, schools, media channels, judiciary, political parties, bureaucracy, international publications etc. to back them. The slothful, ignorant Hindus are no match for them. Don't be so sanguine.

The Church is a big danger, and we can ignore them at our own peril.
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kvchellappa
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#10 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by kvchellappa » 09 Aug 2018, 14:10

Inculturation was perhaps used first by Rajiv Malhotra. 'Being Different' is a beautiful book.
There is no secret about Christians wanting to convert India to a Christian nation in the third millennium, a goal articulated by the Pope during his visit to India. Similarly, the Muslims would like to see India as a caliphate. One Muslim has said in a public meeting attended by Prof Ramaswamy (founder of IIM, Bengaluru) that if there had been no partition, India would have been an Islamic country by now.
The point made here is that General Discussions is about music.
Secondly, no such offence as charged has occurred. If it has occurred, it has not been mentioned how after the charge has been debunked by Lalitha Ramachandran, and also one Vinayakram (video of his talk can be googled).
The audience who will listen to CM cannot be swayed by this incullturation. If they do get swayed, they must have conviction. We have to respect their choice. I have seen several Brahmin-converts in Loyola. Maybe they converted for some mundane benefits. But, it was an informed choice by them. We can have no say in their adult decisions.
In any case, the hope that giving vent to our frustration in this forum with sparse participation in a language that is vituperative will check the intended proselytisation is naive.
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Nick H
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#11 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Nick H » 09 Aug 2018, 14:36

If anybody reads this who does not know me thinks the usual thing, which is actually just another ignorant prejudice, that white-skin/western means christian, let me just say that my views of Christianity would make some hard-line-hindu-org guys blush! I entirely agree with comments about the nasty ways of christian missionaries and evangelists that have been spreading their poison around the world for several hundred years. Yes, they are expert marketing people; they are very good at it.

However, having been in UK for the past few weeks, let me make this analogy: If you are Sainsbury, it's no good shouting at Lidl for taking your customers away. Look to your own marketing! The concern of Hindus may or may not be real (actually, I see it as one the healthier religions in the world) but if they are right, then let them look to "keeping their customers." If they loose them, it is no good wailing at the evil ways of "the other side."

But that does not preclude notice and discussion of the ways of "the other side." Although I guess I it one of the many things I wish we did not have to discuss on this music forum.
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girish_a
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#12 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by girish_a » 09 Aug 2018, 20:28

This article also describes the aforementioned inculturation and assorted devious tactics employed by the Church.

http://www.pragyata.com/mag/heena-and-the-hijab-572#
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SrinathK
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#14 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by SrinathK » 09 Aug 2018, 22:35

https://thewire.in/communalism/communal ... athan-rsss

This guy seems to have a reputation.
"...The man behind the voice
Ramanathan has a rather interesting backstory. He was the BJP in-charge of Velandipalayam, Coimbatore, as late as 2013. He was arrested in October 2013 for enacting a ‘drama’ – Ramanthan threw a petrol bomb into his own house in a bid to boost his image within the party and create communal disharmony in the area. Several news reports from 2013 refer to this event. He calls the charges against him “fabricated”.

Since his image had taken a beating and Ramanathan was about to be expelled from the party, he alleged that people who had stuck posters on walls against Narendra Modi’s visit to Trichy had also thrown petrol bombs into his home. Ramanathan was finally arrested under various sections including 153(A) of the IPC (promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion, race… and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony). Later in the month, Ramanathan was stabbed in the hip by two persons on a motorcycle..."
Out of all the people, it is the religious terrorist that is the most dangerous because he is utterly convinced in the sanctity of his own bullshit - I mean what other force on earth can motivate a guy to blow himself up or kill dozens of innocents? The culprit here isn't really religion (even if they have been known in the past to promise heaven for it). This is an actual cluster B personality disorder inside the person at work - an asura guna if you would call it. We need not bother getting into the details of just how murky the world of politics is, or how much violence has always been a part of human history until recently, but there are lots of them out there.

When these characters get into religion, they create what I call "followers' disease". Let us not for one sec mix these people up with genuine seekers and devotees. Religion is a way for these people to rationalize and justify their own evil, sense of victimhood and entitlement.

The shock to me is that apparently this is not the first time an artiste has been threatened by these kinds of elements. Nithyashree has issued a statement on her FB. And TM Krishna has been threatened before.

Perhaps this man behind the threats should 'take care' of himself first.
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Sachi_R
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#15 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Sachi_R » 09 Aug 2018, 23:17

Perhaps in this forum, our enthusiasm to take sides is not matched by any detailed knowledge of the processes and behind-the-scenes in all these initiatives.

Conversion took away these Indian Christians from their cultural roots and gave them an alternative world to live in.
This present effort is not very meaningful, unless it caters to an innate sense of "ghar vapsi".

However hard you try, you don't find reindeer, snowflakes and camels in Kerala. When you sing of these things in Western tunes, you live in that world, not in the Kerala of Bhattatiri or Swathi Thirunal.

When you sing a Thygaraja song in Todi, you live in the Carnatic world. Changing lyrics to Christian themes leaves you neither here nor there.

I don't expect to listen to Western classical music with Ramayana and Bhagavatam lyrics.

Carnatic artistes have many career choices. They can dabble in any genre and type of songs in Carnatic tunes or otherwise. But let them not fool themselves that they are expanding some horizons of Carnatic music.

So I propose that debating the quality of the Carnatic music in such albums is perhaps the only reasonable course open to us. Everything else looks quite muddled.
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hnbhagavan
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#16 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by hnbhagavan » 09 Aug 2018, 23:18

I do not understand whether the protest is due to substituting CHRIST in place of RAMA in Thyagaraja Kritis or are they entirely new compositions?
Needless to stay this is an wanted controversy as if we do not have sufficient number of controversies?
I did not listen to many Whatsup forwards,but I saw TMK issuing statements in FB saying he will release one song each week on Christ in Carnatic style.
Hope the issue will not escalate further.It is better to leave CHRIST for Western Music and RAMA in our Music.
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martha_krishna
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#17 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by martha_krishna » 10 Aug 2018, 00:15

hnbhagavan wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 23:18
Hope the issue will not escalate further.It is better to leave CHRIST for Western Music and RAMA in our Music.
hahahahaha, carnatic music is my music too and I do not mind christ or rama or flying spaghetti monster in my music.
still waiting for evidence where tyagarajas compisitions were altered.
hilarious all the brethren have their panties in a twist about this....soooooooooo fragile
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Sachi_R
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#18 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Sachi_R » 10 Aug 2018, 00:29

I received a call from someone deeply committed to furthering the art of Carnatic music. He had heard that some artiste/s were modifying Carnatic compositions to bring in Christian names and sentiments. He was agitated and wanted my opinion.

I said I do not know the details, but believe these are new Christian lyrics packaged and promoted in Carnatic tunes which may or may not resemble well known Trinity kritis. I said I do not have an objection to new lyrics in new tunes but I would not like old songs repackaged with Christian lyrics.
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martha_krishna
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#19 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by martha_krishna » 10 Aug 2018, 00:33

I personally agree; old songs should not be appropriated or changed. The villainous TMK had to say this about even music composers changing the melody of thyagaraja composition https://youtu.be/tJH3H-gkWsU?t=717
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martha_krishna
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#20 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by martha_krishna » 10 Aug 2018, 01:32

kvchellappa wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 14:10
Inculturation was perhaps used first by Rajiv Malhotra. 'Being Different' is a beautiful book.
There is no secret about Christians wanting to convert India to a Christian nation in the third millennium, a goal articulated by the Pope during his visit to India. Similarly, the Muslims would like to see India as a caliphate. One Muslim has said in a public meeting attended by Prof Ramaswamy (founder of IIM, Bengaluru) that if there had been no partition, India would have been an Islamic country by now.
The point made here is that General Discussions is about music.
Secondly, no such offence as charged has occurred. If it has occurred, it has not been mentioned how after the charge has been debunked by Lalitha Ramachandran, and also one Vinayakram (video of his talk can be googled).
The audience who will listen to CM cannot be swayed by this incullturation. If they do get swayed, they must have conviction. We have to respect their choice. I have seen several Brahmin-converts in Loyola. Maybe they converted for some mundane benefits. But, it was an informed choice by them. We can have no say in their adult decisions.
In any case, the hope that giving vent to our frustration in this forum with sparse participation in a language that is vituperative will check the intended proselytisation is naive.
Sir Psalm 43:2 says
You are God my stronghold.
Why have you rejected me?
Why must I go about mourning,
oppressed by the enemy?

wow looks like your vituperative language had no effect on me and I have converted after listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... pzZtJhdf2Y :cry:

inshallah, I will get my faith back, bismillahrahim
oh no, I have converted again after listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FauxpOMibu4

vashisthta maithrvaruna thrayursheya pravaraanvita kaundinya gotraha...
phew just in time, I remember my pravara, thank lord krishna and MSS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW55f0JZNPI

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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arasi
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#21 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by arasi » 10 Aug 2018, 02:16

"Meet those who seek the truth and join them in its path, keep the company of respectful folks and seek bliss", Vedanayakam Pillai sang: nityAnandathai nADu

sabkO san mati dE bhagvAn went Gandhiji's favorite hymn raghupati rAghava rAjArAm.

Fight something one considers evil with something equally evil in turn? Isn't it an arasikA activity of so called rasikAs of music...? By the way, where has music gone and has hidden in all this virulent activity?
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Vayoo Flute
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#22 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Vayoo Flute » 10 Aug 2018, 02:20

I must admit that I created this folder as a knew-jerk reaction as a result of some social media messages without verifying if some musicians are really taking known Carnatic compositions and Christianizing them. I immediately regretted creating this post. However I now feel there may be some value to it.

Christianization of well-known Carnatic compositions may not be here yet, but I can almost guarantee that it is coming, just like Christian Yoga, Jesu sahasranamam, Churches designed with temple architecture, etc. Christian fanatics have a way of usurping treasures of other cultures and claiming them as their own invention.

I have no problem in other traditions using Carnatic ragas to create new compositions. I encourage this as it would spread the rich melodic structure to other cultures. But I have a problem when these other cultures can not enjoy a composition in its original form without adulterating the words. I am quite happy to sing Christmas Carrols and I enjoy tremendously the music of Bach, which is largely Church music. Can I not expect the same from those of other cultures?
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arasi
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#23 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by arasi » 10 Aug 2018, 02:26

Well, heard MS once again, ah, sanity! So, yaSOdA to the rescue--even the jadOddhAraNa was her chellap piLlai (darling child), and to Him, we all are...peace be ours...
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Nick H
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#24 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Nick H » 10 Aug 2018, 03:22

People, people...

Who's been to a church recently? I'm sure that many of you are far more open minded than I am, and even I go to weddings!

OK, so here is the point: what did you think of the music? Do you think it possible, on the basis of what you saw, that "the church" (generalisation alert) is going to do anything musically serious and beautiful other than for occasional curiosity value? I think, and I'm sorry that this is the case, that it is utterly unlikely.

Let's give credit where it is due: good, serious and complex music is part of christianity's history. Similarly, there was a great deal of wonderful art, architecture, etc etc etc. I suppose it provided an environment in which such people could work, be employed, and so on.

Where is it now? The worst of teenage twittle. Far worse than film music!

Add to that the fact that carnatic music is a minority interest anyway, and I don't think we are in much danger of our small camp suffering a concerted (no pun intended) attack.
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SrinathK
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#25 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by SrinathK » 10 Aug 2018, 07:50

A fanatic is a fanatic, religious or otherwise. The problem is a particular set of psychological disorders, regardless of what medium the fanatic uses to broadcast himself.

One thing, in TN there are far too many hooligans. Already many major projects have shifted base from TN to Andhra because the culture here is such that it is too easy to make a rumor and lots of jobless drunks who have nothing better to do will create a huge scene over it. The case of the LIGO detector is just one example. The corruption is too destructive to the industry right now and this welfare state thing while being popular is going to destroy the state finances down the road.

I have been to villages in Bihar that haven't seen electricity ever. And even there I do not think the situation was as pathetic as I see it in certain places in TN. Only problem is, they have guns over there and here they don't.

May CM also might move to Andhra and one day Tamilnadu will become the next "Waste Bengal".

I felt that it is inevitable that someday new songs in new cultures will be composed as CM goes more and more global.

I am going to listen to these new songs and see the truth for myself though. But of all the sinners in the world, none is a greater sinner than the one who believes his 'goodness' is sanctioned by God and scripture and that justifies doing any atrocity in the process.
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