Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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kvchellappa
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#101 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by kvchellappa » 12 Aug 2018, 20:38

mangaLam kOsalEndrAya mahanIya gunAbdhayE
cakravarti tanujAya sArvabhaumAya mangaLam

Amen.
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Ponbhairavi
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#102 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Ponbhairavi » 12 Aug 2018, 21:13

post concert National Anthem.

Appanai paadum vaayaal, aandi suppanai paaduveno?(siva kavi)
Raamanai paadum vaayaal ,thanjai raajaavai paaduveno ?( thyagaraajar )
Yes why not ? why rigidity.After all they also worshipped the same siva and Rama in the form of statues.
But here we have a group of people who call those who worship statues as “paavigaley” ( you sinners) and they are doing all out pracharam to convert those” silai” worshippers into “ “siluvai“worshippers .You are lending your voice ( music, art ,culture tradition etc are inconsequential digressions ) in their favour. Are you not aware that your voices are going to sound at every nook and corner before the suvisesham meetings to lure the crowd ? (as keerai kattu ( bunch of greens) to lure the AAdu and maadu.-- M.L.V voice at margazhi mornings!! and Mss voice for suprabatham!! and yours for…. suvisesham.!!! Let your conscience decide.
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harimau
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#103 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by harimau » 12 Aug 2018, 21:51

arasi wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 20:12
nI nAma rUpamulaku nitya jaya mangalam, oh Lord Almighty!
Not yet!

https://medium.com/the-deep-chronicles/ ... 6190679379
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kvjayan
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#104 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by kvjayan » 12 Aug 2018, 22:26

Amen! What an ingenious way to cleanse the uncivilised masses through humble sasthriya sangeetham, wittingly or unwittingly aided by our kalanidhis and kalasikhamanis. All the glory to secularism and communal harmony.
Ponbhairavi wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 21:13
post concert National Anthem.

Appanai paadum vaayaal, aandi suppanai paaduveno?(siva kavi)
Raamanai paadum vaayaal ,thanjai raajaavai paaduveno ?( thyagaraajar )
Yes why not ? why rigidity.After all they also worshipped the same siva and Rama in the form of statues.
But here we have a group of people who call those who worship statues as “paavigaley” ( you sinners) and they are doing all out pracharam to convert those” silai” worshippers into “ “siluvai“worshippers .You are lending your voice ( music, art ,culture tradition etc are inconsequential digressions ) in their favour. Are you not aware that your voices are going to sound at every nook and corner before the suvisesham meetings to lure the crowd ? (as keerai kattu ( bunch of greens) to lure the AAdu and maadu.-- M.L.V voice at margazhi mornings!! and Mss voice for suprabatham!! and yours for…. suvisesham.!!! Let your conscience decide.
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Sachi_R
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#105 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Sachi_R » 12 Aug 2018, 23:12

If Carnatic musicians want to sing about Islam and Christianity, they could include these nuggets in their songs:

The way Allah arrived in India:
Mass murder, rape, arson, breaking temples.
.

The Company, Church and Artillery,
One unholy Trinity.
Came and crucified a clueless nation.
And we now sing of
The Mighty Christ.
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Nick H
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#106 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Nick H » 12 Aug 2018, 23:30

It is stuff like this thread that drives people to religion! :lol:
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Vayoo Flute
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#107 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Vayoo Flute » 13 Aug 2018, 00:40

Nick H wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 23:30
It is stuff like this thread that drives people to religion! :lol:
On a deeper level it is stuff that is going on that creates a thread like this. :lol:
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Nick H
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#108 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Nick H » 13 Aug 2018, 03:55

On a deeper level
Oh no! Nothing deep about any of this stuff :cry:
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shankarank
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#109 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by shankarank » 13 Aug 2018, 08:39

Sachi_R wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 18:56

By the way, I would like to share my studied opinion on this "Hinduism is too heterogenous and anything goes under the name of Hinduism".

What the westerners called Hinduism is their understanding of what our rishis called Sanatana Dharma. By definition,
...
5. For me the Bhagavadgita is the ultimate scripture. Suffice to quote two verses:
It is interesting how you start with William Jones/Max Mueller hinduism and finally transition to "Me" by point number 5.! If they look for a book/scripture and define things that way you will just take that as an "ism"?

My grandfather happen to serve in a village which was beyond the reach of any bramhaNya in tamizh nadu - I don't know if such areas exist in other states which are prime agricultural - not some remote forests. With three young daughters yet to be married. The people there would not have heard of rAmAyANa or whatever. Such people are also the target of conversions if you don't know.

But the values they espoused at that time are not based on any scriptures. I don't think they would have known tirukkuRAL either - so even if a recent analysis claimed tirukkuRAL is based on vEdic dharma, that also does not apply to them.

Do you think the british power made them behave? As a rail route it was not even in any main stream traffic!

On my wife's side her grandfather escaped by foot from Burma. The tribals guided him how to negotiate the forest. I don't think there was British power in force. Do you think they would have read any of your scriptures?

And I don't know why you guys are so anxious for mukti when there are so many problems to solve down here on the earth? :lol:
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pattamaa
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#110 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by pattamaa » 13 Aug 2018, 10:24

shankarank wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 08:39


And I don't know why you guys are so anxious for mukti when there are so many problems to solve down here on the earth? :lol:
which is precisely mukti is needed ,as the earth is full of problems as you say !
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talalaya
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#111 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by talalaya » 13 Aug 2018, 10:42

Just how low can some guys stoop down to, for some money!!!

Just take a bow to Ilayaraja, who refused to score music for the film "Periyar", despite an offer of remuneration in Millions.
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ram1999
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#112 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by ram1999 » 13 Aug 2018, 10:48

A fitting reply to the guy who has been let loose (TMK). A forward as received... an interesting read...

Dear Mr.Krishna,

I read with amusement your infantile tweet in response to the current controversy in the Carnatic Music world and your subsequent (un)humble interview. I would like to put a few points for your notice - although based on your interview you seem to be like MahaVishnu a trignany.

I am neither as intelligent nor that well versed in music as you are. I am just an average listener who likes to listen and enjoy music. So here we go

1. You mentioned that to thwart the negative backlash against the well known musicians, you are going to sing one song in praise of Allah and Jesus. My only go to response was So? Big deal!! Really ..... you think anyone really is going to fall at your feet and request you to do otherwise. Please get a grip.
2. I feel if you are going to sing a song on any God, the purpose should be either one's own devotion or to bolster devotion in the mind of the listener. Whereas your purpose seems to be wrong abinitio. You are going to sing these songs on Jesus and Allah with vengeance, hatred and ego at heart. I am not sure about the people of these other religions, but I think it is unfair on these religions if you were to use their platform to further your agenda of what to me looks like "getting back on those pompous ignorant fools in the guise of Carnatic rasikas".
3. In your interview you made a statement (to put it mildly confident, to put it harshly downright arrogant) "What do these people know about Kalyani and Kambodi (To quote your tamil words you said Ivalukku Kalyaniyayum Kambodiyayum pathi enna theriyum?) Sir, the raison détre of an artist is the rasikas and these are not celebrity chasing groups like in the case of movie stars or sport people but by and large simple folks. You may think that you were targeting the silk swishing, diamond sparkling upper crust in Mylapore but as a rasika (and a Mylapore one at that), you cannot be more wrong. When an ignoramus like yours truly is sitting in a Kutcheri, my ears are tuned to the simpler folks who come running from an office and are able to identify (they are so happy when they do that) the raaga in the first five seconds, note down the krithis, sometimes explain to their co-listeners / grand children, relive many moments of the concert including comparing it with erstwhile artists and after all that take a share auto to reach their homes in some distant suburbs. (And as you know the little rain that we get in Chennai is normally during the music season). They definitely know their Kalyani and Kambodi sir - make no mistakes. They also know when the artist slips in the Kalpana swaram or alapana but are too polite to boo you.

But on a separate note, why is every musician (maybe you are a swayambu in terms of self appreciation) crave for the acknowledgement and appreciation from the Chennai rasikas. Although not as bright as you are, there should be some reason. Right?
4. The next point you made was that the raaga matters but not which God is sung about. Really? When I listen to MS sing Rangapuravihara I don't hear BrindavanaSaranga but see the Lord on the Adisesha while feeling the breeze from the Cauvery. When Aruna sings the Kalinga Narthanam, I see a small child jumping on a Kalia with many heads and hissing venom. I feel protective and fearful for the child. When Priya Sisters sing Malai Meedu Vaazhum Sri Srinivasa, I feel safe that the lord of the seven hills is protecting me. I have seen many an octogenarian moved to tears with certain bhajans although we have heard it million times before. So the bhava and the bhakti that a musician brings to the table is as important as the raaga, sruti, saareeram etc., There are many good singers who don't make it too big because they lack that bhava. As an integral part of the BhaktiMarga, Carnatic music is intertwined with the Hindu religion, whether you like it or not.

If what you say about the raaga being the only predominant element correct, how come so many movie songs that are based on Carnatic music is not considered "serious" music. That does not mean we love Ilayaraja any less. He is a genius who well and truly brought classicism to music without being arrogant about it. So did many more composers and music directors.

5. The other point you made was the rasikas have no right to interfere with the music which is the individual right of the singer. Ofcourse. And I don't think they have in the past (to my knowledge). Ms.Nithyashree has sung a Minsarakanna which is quite popular. Ms.Aruna Sairam has sung a song called Ave Maria followed by Sarva Brahmamayee which was received very well. Or when Abhangs were introduced first time, the rasikas lapped it up.
And these were not an issue as we like the fact that musician is expanding his /her repertoire (and ours too). So many of us started humming Abhangs in Marathi, a language very unfamiliar to us till 15 years ago. As rasikas we also understand the commercial aspect of your profession and do not grudge you that.
So do not rubbish the rasikas and their sentiments to suit your purpose please.
6. Why are the rasikas concerned about all the singers singing non-Hindu religious songs? The simple issue seems to be the numbers and scale of this campaign. You have always been a maverick and we don't expect anything else from you. If anything we may expect something worse as you seem to like to do things for the shock value. So leaving that aside, we had and emotional bond with these other singers and felt very let down. That is the emotional argument.
7. The logical argument is one of intellectual property. If you do a semi classical or a "light"music in a quasi carnatic platform it will not matter. But when there is a resemblance and likeness to existing krithis of the great saints it is worrying. By your logic a software company should not charge any money and a drug discovery should not have any patent. So there is an actual concern that was perceived.
8. You may argue that if I clone a Thyagaraja song, what is your right to object? I disagree. See, be it our temples, our scriptures, our music is given to us so that we can preserve it and pass it on to the next generation. While we can improvise and innovate we cannot do away with the fundamental foundation. Then we lose the music and its relevance and its placement within our cultural landscape. All of us - your fraternity as singers or us as rasikas - have a fiduciary and a moral obligation to protect these gems for our children and grand children.
9. You seem to think that you have a carte blanche when you sing for other religions. I think you are just a propaganda instrument. I will respect you more if you can propagate a Thyagaraja Kirthana or a Tulsi Das Bhajan in a church or a mosque. Why don't you try singing one song on Rama in such places without taking specific permission to do so? Let us see the reaction.

In the meanwhile, I hope this controversy ends amicably for all concerned so that people can focus on their music.

Do have a peaceful weekend.

With regards
XXXX
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pattamaa
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#113 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by pattamaa » 13 Aug 2018, 10:49

some of the singers named in this controversy have sung songs praising LTTE prabhakaran also ! don't know what to say. is that also communal har"money" ?
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ram1999
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#114 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by ram1999 » 13 Aug 2018, 10:52

A short but a hard hitting speech by Mr. Lee Kwan Yew on how Christian Missionaries operate with an agenda ...
Surely in the name of secularism, broad mindedness, gaining popularity we resort to cheap tricks and when caught give a thousand justifications to wriggle out....

https://www.facebook.com/hari.ramasubbu ... 465321023/
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sirsub11
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#115 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by sirsub11 » 13 Aug 2018, 10:59

In the midst of so much tantrums, I hope there is room for a tempered take on the subject. My piece this morning from the Deccan Chronicle.

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/ ... music.html
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sureshvv
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#116 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by sureshvv » 13 Aug 2018, 11:20

sirsub11 wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 10:59
In the midst of so much tantrums, I hope there is room for a tempered take on the subject. My piece this morning from the Deccan Chronicle.
Agree with most of what you say! Except the part about the lyrics.

Don't confuse the rabble rousers with those that care about and enjoy the lyrics of music.
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kvchellappa
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#117 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by kvchellappa » 13 Aug 2018, 11:26

sureshvv wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 11:20
Agree with most of what you say! Except the part about the lyrics.

Don't confuse the rabble rousers with those that care about and enjoy the lyrics of music.
It is not sirsub11 who says it, but Suresh Subrahmanyan, uncle of Sanjay, and he is a connoisseur.
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#118 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 13 Aug 2018, 12:00

.
Innocently or otherwise, should an individual extend support to one the innumerable efforts of a proselytizing religion, which is actively engaged in trying to convert members of his/her own religion ?
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Nick H
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#119 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by Nick H » 13 Aug 2018, 12:56

Nick H wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 03:55
On a deeper level
Oh no! Nothing deep about any of this stuff :cry:
And the core issue is that people actually want Shallow!

I don't know why you people don't get this.

Why do people flick to the shallow, in religion, music, art and most things? The majority are not interested in the deep. A quick emotional high sells better. Pop, film music, praise the lord. It's all the same.

Why do people walk out in the thani? They don't like it. How many threads do we need to realise that?

No offence. I respect very much the depth of knowledge and understanding of some of the members here... But still, what good does it do to sit in your high towers talking about the people flocking to something that requires none of that? The connoisseurs are complaining that the common children want and prefer cheap plastic toys. And beating the sellers of the cheap plastic toy rust came from abroad to flood the market here.

... Not so much a rant as a woffle. There is a point or two in it somewhere.
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sureshvv
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#120 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by sureshvv » 13 Aug 2018, 13:27

Pratyaksham Bala wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 12:00
Innocently or otherwise, should an individual extend support to one the innumerable efforts of a proselytizing religion, which is actively engaged in trying to convert members of his/her own religion ?
I do not agree with the way you have framed the question. I don't think any "support is extended" to religious conversion when these songs are sung.

Should Christians be denied the enjoyment of hearing their religious songs thru the voices of Hindu singers?

It is hypocritical of Hindus - who have enjoyed the music of people from all faiths to now constrain singers from their own faith.
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SrinathK
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#121 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by SrinathK » 13 Aug 2018, 13:34

I wonder why you choose to ignore the reality...for you it must be a simple matter of reciprocal cross cultural music exploration, but the reality of religions is far from this. I mean what is this fashion of calling only Hindus or the Brahmins intolerant and sectarian, when others come with built in intolerance with "my way is the only way and the rest are damned" and have a fantastic historical record to support it too? That is not fair either. But we all know why no one will attempt that. :lol:

Logically, music should not be bounded by any barriers yes - if only it was just music and not tied into more sinister motivations. But accusing only India of being intolerant, which is so fashionable in the media, is a very clear case of the pot calling the kettle black (I wonder if someone looking to get offended might accuse me of racism now... :lol:)

If you want to learn what real intolerance looks like, try our immediate national neighbours. ;)

This controversy wouldn't be an issue if it had been done as a fusion collaboration in the US. Artistes can try to keep their art free of barriers, but music can and will be used ultimately for goals other than just pure art.

Anyway, just look at the state of Europe :- https://www.newsweek.com/christianity-d ... ope-859272
Religion still has a stronghold in the USA, but here too, it's overall on the decline : https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ob ... -religion/
Last edited by SrinathK on 13 Aug 2018, 14:14, edited 7 times in total.
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bhakthim dehi
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#122 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by bhakthim dehi » 13 Aug 2018, 13:49

Should Christians be denied the enjoyment of hearing their religious songs thru the voices of Hindu singers?

They denigrate Hindu religion, but feel happy in Hindu singers singing their song? How foolish you can be.
Last edited by bhakthim dehi on 13 Aug 2018, 13:51, edited 1 time in total.
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ram1999
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#123 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by ram1999 » 13 Aug 2018, 14:52

sureshvv wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 13:27
Pratyaksham Bala wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 12:00
Innocently or otherwise, should an individual extend support to one the innumerable efforts of a proselytizing religion, which is actively engaged in trying to convert members of his/her own religion ?
I do not agree with the way you have framed the question. I don't think any "support is extended" to religious conversion when these songs are sung.

Should Christians be denied the enjoyment of hearing their religious songs thru the voices of Hindu singers?

It is hypocritical of Hindus - who have enjoyed the music of people from all faiths to now constrain singers from their own faith.


Of course they have the right to enjoy CM. They could well go to concert halls to listen / thru radio or tapes or other mediums !! Why should musicians support the Christian Missionaries when the missionaries are resorting to all means to convert !!
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sureshvv
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#124 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by sureshvv » 13 Aug 2018, 15:21

First of all this christian music is not CM. It is more of the "light classical" or "devotional" genre. Are Christians allowed to listen to Christian devotional music sung by Hindu musicians?
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sureshvv
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#125 Re: Christianizatiion of Tygaraja Kritis

Post by sureshvv » 13 Aug 2018, 15:34

SrinathK wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 13:34

If you want to learn what real intolerance looks like, try our immediate national neighbours. ;)
And your prescription is that we should be just like them :D
Religion still has a stronghold in the USA, but...
I am afraid that your attitude if adopted generally will only hasten it here too.
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