TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

[Ranganayaki]

Bilahari wrote:

I think it is a perfectly valid point that the doubts are in our minds, and that they are doubts. I listened to the viruttam you posted as well as the porambOku song on YouTube, and I did enjoy both pieces. I do not understand Telugu and I am not religious (to put it mildly), so I find it difficult to appreciate the content of a lot of CM compositions. I did not have that problem at all with these pieces, which made them all the more enjoyable. It is a feeling of greater involvement with the art I rarely feel, and felt first listening to ohO kAlamE.

I also think that regardless of motivations we are responsible to musicians who are trying to make our art more inclusive and more expansive, and that alone merits support.

I will try to keep an open mind and listen to TMK, but I warn you that I am as human and flawed as he is, so my reaction may still remain coloured by my biases.

Wow! What an amazing post! How lovely! I don’t need that warning, it’s not about me or anyone keeping tabs , you know that. I just wish you joy in the journey. I just want to add that I’m not hoping that you will end up liking TMK’s music specifically. Nor is it towards him that I want to “convert” you. I don’t do that, and I don’t have an agenda. If you really don’t like his music, it would be fair that as a CM Rasika, it should be because something about the music doesn’t appeal to you, and not his personality, appearance, attire, views, or anything extraneous. I feel compelled to add this because of the weird reaction I just received and I’m writing here for anyone to read.

[Nick H]

It seems not possible for anything to do with TMK not to end up in controversy of an unhealthy kind on this forum.

Experience has taught me to mostly avoid his writing. Experience has taught me that his music can be amazing and I wish I had started listening to it earlier.

Is it possible that a person's views and behaviour would prevent me from attending their concerts? Certainly. I'm sure there is some sort of graph, with some sort of line on it, which might be called something like excremental? There is a point on that line that I would not want to go beyond.

Of course, we don't know all the artists we listen to. It is quite possible that some of those strangers might make good music but be rotten human beings. Better not to know, perhaps!

I do not find the non-music TMK excremental, by the way. Not at all, even when and if I disagree with him. Just tedious and an often-bad writer.

[bilahari]

Of course, we don't know all the artists we listen to. It is quite possible that some of those strangers might make good music but be rotten human beings. Better not to know, perhaps!

That is certainly the lesson I learnt in my very short stint as a concert sponsor.

Ranganayaki, I know you are not one to proselytize. But you and Suresh both make compelling arguments and life is a journey of self-improvement.

[rajeshnat]

Thank you for your review. As usual it was very crystal clear and for a change no shuffle of words.

I don't follow your comment. What does "for a change no shuffle of words" mean? To me it sounds like the exact opposite of "As usual it was crystal clear."

I suppose you don't know this, but I am trained to dissociate artistic production from the artist. It is easy for me. It's actually hArder to accept that others can't do it and are quite unaware of this. That's why I appreciate Bilahari's straightforwardness (and self-awareness) in admitting to his inability to dissociate the two, and that's why I felt he MAY be able to give it a try. And that's also why I would never tell Harimau (or you) to open your eyes to the universality of all religions.

I refrain from making personal comments about your musical likes and dislikes, everybody on this forum does so. Kindly return the courtesy to others and don't get personal.

Ranganayaki,
I should have stated like this As usual it was very crystal clear and for a change no shuffle of words like a shuffle of numbers of a TMK concert ( varali alapana followed by soundararajam ashrayE). I should have communicated better . Shuffle of words is not from you.
For heavens sake donot accuse that I have not returned courtesy . Many many reviews even I am also questioned . Take it in the stride and move on.

Check my last review of TMK concert as you have to know from where I am coming. I wrote than that completeness of each step is important , i dont care about shuffle
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30787

[rajeshnat]

Song list notwithstanding, how was the actual concert?

It was a good concert, the experience was excellent, the music shone through, without too much of the usual acrobatics, and I didn't miss it.

Ranganayaki
You wrote the concert was good and the experience was excellent . For this reason only I have started writing every review and end with overall how it was (below mediocre, mediocre,good,very good,excellent,outstanding or anything in between like good to very good , ). Can you tell over all how the concert was ?? Here I feel there was wide shuffle of words , if the concert was good how can the experience be excellent ?. Please tell overall how it was??

[rajeshnat]

That is certainly the lesson I learnt in my very short stint as a concert sponsor.

Ranganayaki, I know you are not one to proselytize. But you and Suresh both make compelling arguments and life is a journey of self-improvement.

Bilahari,
You should put behind things and continue your thatha's yearly concert.

Apart from life being a journey of self-improvements
1. Life is also a journey of working backwards and also looking at numbers and really fundamentally changing our core .
2. Contextualize the recent 10 years numbers than rather looking at 2000 years numbers.
3. In doing #1, we should not worry about few sources when they make few nasty remarks .

[shankarank]

Not heavy on neraval, korvais, kanakku, with the focus on ragas and songs and mood and emotion. Different from the showmanship we expect from everyone, but the music wasn't missing.

...

What's your point?

If you liked TMK's music, I have no problems. If they want to slow down and explore rAgA in sAhitya, that is fine. But that appreciation need not have to be reinforced by negative comments on other aspects, to give the impression that those things are regressive and whatever is being tried is new and progressive!

And as a critique, there is this form called viruttam, which is meant for verses that cannot be expressed in tALam, even if they still carry a sUkshma layam. Mixing up forms and bringing Alapana style into a well made kriti ( sanskriti) , is doing disservice to that form.

And that is just an informed criticism and not a curb against the artiste or listeners who enjoy it.

[SrinathK]

TMK opened with a beautiful Vrittam on the Supreme One:

"Om Tatsat. Shri Narayana Tu. Purushottama Guru Tu. Siddha Buddhi Tu. Skanda -Vinayaka Savitaapaavaka Tu. Bramha Mazda Tu. ...-Shakti Tu. Eeshu Tu. Eeshupita Tu. Ramakrishna Tu. Raheem-TaoTu. Rudra-Vishnu Tu. Vishnu Purana Krishna Tu. ... Akaala Nirbhaya Aatma Linga Tu.. Om Tatsat!! "


He segued into the kriti with a few "baaro" added at the end of the Vrittam.. Rk Shriramkumar and Arun Prakash were delightful musical extensions of TMK's sensitive voice, also in the slow kalpanaswarams which I almost didn't notice for what they were, it was just music .

This was simple and fundamental truth (with a capital T) just simplicity and beauty... Primed by the message of Oneness with all the various words for the Absolute, I had an instantly spiritual response with the mention of Ramakrishna, almost as though I was in deep meditation myself, it had never happened before! I don't have words for it, "transported" is not quite it. I was very much present, but enveloped by the music, my mind was - secluded!! Then the song ended, and the doors opened with a bang it seemed, and all the late-comers who could not enter during the first piece charged in like rhinos to my mind, and my mood was destroyed.

The Kharaharapriya was very nice, not much to say about it, except that I couldn't help thinking what a great team they were. There were moments of silence, the kind TMK seems to quietly enjoy in the middle of his music and his team know just what to do.. Just play a note, or be quiet, and play nothing... KAP plays a soft basic beat and knows the value and power of mridangam silence in a concert, such a relief after years of mostly continuously noisy mridangists! Neraval at " Sakala Mahitendra Neelamani Nibha Shareera Paahi Saketa Naayaka." The neraval segued into swaras, elaborating around the upper rishabha, with a very quick koraippu and the violinist taking the lead for sarvalaghus, seamlessly followed by TMK's with the mridangam alternating between fine and strong sound. The piece ended with a short solo by the mridangist with a simple korvai ending without too much fanfare.

Shankarabharanam Taanam.. I was aware this time not to be surprised by the absence of an alapana and not to expect a Pallavi or anything in Shankarabharanam following it. And when you don't have those expectations, it is very easy to adjust when the kutcheri does not follow the usual predictable lines, but presents so much other beauty to experience.

The Taanam came to a rather simple end and I was reminded of some other inspired Taanam endings, which this one didn't have, but it was all right. He asked the audience to show how many of us knew Malayalam, and some people raised hands, and he says to laughter,"Ok, first thing you do is to excuse my Malayalam, and secondly you can tell your neighbor what the next song is about.." The beautiful song Kanivolum Kamaneeya Hridayam followed (in Shankarabharanam), and I had to google it to know the exact pallavi line. But it was clear that it was a song on Sri Jesus Christ. To be frank, the change was welcome, and jarred nobody's ears in the audience. He mentioned its credits as a film song.

I switched off for a moment feeling a little bored by the choice of "Vinatasuta Vahana," and didn't bother to follow the lyrics and meanings on an app as I usually do.. It turned out to be a mistake, as I found out later, talking to our friend Musikapriya after the concert. He explained how Thyagaraja himself asks if there can be sukha in pleasant words (sammata vaakkulu) without the flame of differences in "modes of worship"/opinion being extinguished. I realized that it was not a random filler but a well-chosen song to assuage the hurt we all felt by the negative circumstances surrounding the concert, and to question the hatred brought on by differences. Thyagaraja recommends the company of the pure-hearted (sat-sangati) who make no matter of any difference and who instead offer the comfort (saukhyamu) of Oneness, rather than the flames of difference (meaning here adapted from Sri VGV's work). I missed that moment in the concert, and a mind more open would have helped me enjoy it more. I'm glad he chose to sing it.

The ragamalika alapana was fantastic, with the alternate segueing from raga back to raga getting progressively shorter and more seamless. A true joy, without the intellect seeming to intervene in a moment of musical meditation. The meditative mood was set with the Varali seeming to come from the depth of his heart. He remained in the lower reaches of the primary octave, without exploring the uttarangam , but the exploration took him lower into the mandara sthayee, to the lower P, then lower around the M, back up to the P, all very normal, but then he went lower and lower exploring each swara, all the way to the S and the atimandara N, staying there for a moment before gently returning up the lower octave to finish and hand it to RKSK who continued the meditation, also remaining in the lower octave. It was not just the audience who was touched, but Sri KAP and RKSK also appeared to be very moved. My heart filled up and I can only count on you all knowing the feeling that is not something to describe.

There was a ten-second hint of Brindavana Saranga before "Soundararajam Ashraye," beautifully done. This was followed by a short Tani. There were moments of laughter and appreciation during this, but the reason escaped me.

It was a little difficult for me to catch all the words of the Vrittam that began in Lathangi, but there is another version of it in different ragas at https://soundcloud.com/rajesh-garga/mud ... n-virutham .

Mudiatha tuyaril Naan moozhgikkidakkindren
Moorkam soozhnthida marugith Thavikkindren
Vidiyatha irul pothil vegu dooram kadanthu virainthu vanthu vanthu
ILamai valuvodu padiyeri padiyeri padam thoynthavan
Padum Paadu paarka Parvai thiruppu nee
Madiyeru mugameru malarpola vaadidum manamerumarul Neekku
Maathorubaagane.

He later announced that the Vrittam was a composition of PerumaaL Murugan.

The heartbreaking Porambokku Paadal was sung at someone's request.

It was a wonderful concert, truly a concerted effort of like-minded individuals there, from the family who took the initiative to organize it, to the artists, to the audience who supported it by showing up, each and every member..

Clearly, TMK who spoke to give thanks was touched, and he acknowledged the sudden change in significance that the concert took and said that it was not so much that it was a TMK concert that it needed to happen, but because a democracy is the only humanly made structure gives us the ability to share empathy and transcend differences. He said that as a democratic idea, this concert was extremely important.

About art, he made the point that we say that art transcends, going beyond religion, gender, but in fact art doesn't really "go" anywhere of its own accord. So if art really should create dialog and open or cross boundaries then human beings need to make the effort to make it happen. Artists and all who share art have to make the effort to make the conversation possible, regardless of the boundaries of religion, or gender.

The wonderful thing that came out of all the noise, he said, was that we all came together to do something. As you know, I agree heartily. He concluded, after thanking the people crucial to his tour, by saying, "Thank you very much, DC, you made it very special." It really was moving.

Coming back on track @Ranganayaki, this was an excellent review btw. Musically, T M Krishna offers an intense experience. Spend 3 hours in a concert of his, and you are overwhelmed by it. He has brought a certain intensity into his slow speed singing as well as a more 'free bird' approach to neraval - a fantastic imagination. Also he is an excellent collaborator with his team of artistes. From the racy days of overwhelming rounds of brighas, neravals and swaras, he has changed a lot in his manner of presentation, his concerts have become significantly more moving, but the intensity is still there, and how.

[Ranganayaki]

If you liked TMK's music, I have no problems. If they want to slow down and explore rAgA in sAhitya, that is fine. But that appreciation need not have to be reinforced by negative comments on other aspects, to give the impression that those things are regressive and whatever is being tried is new and progressive!

Thanks for trying to explain and clarify. The first paragraph above made that part clearer, but the rest is still not clear to me.

I think you have misunderstood what I meant. I don’t think I said anything negative about any other type of concert in this post. I said it was different from the showmanship we normally expect. I didn’t say anything bad about the showmanship. In other contexts, I’ve appreciated the showmanship, and really enjoyed it. It’s different for different artists. I love TMK’s slow pace, just as I enjoy Abhishek Raghuram’s breakneck speed. I’m not sure where you got the idea of “regressive” and “progressive.” I didn’t say any such thing.

Mixing up forms and bringing Alapana style into a well made kriti ( sanskriti) , is doing disservice to that form.

I don’t know what you mean.. I didn’t discuss any such thing. Anyway it’s unclear. May be you can share a link to demonstrate this. Who does this to which kriti?

[Ranganayaki]

Coming back on track @Ranganayaki, this was an excellent review btw. Musically, T M Krishna offers an intense experience. Spend 3 hours in a concert of his, and you are overwhelmed by it. He has brought a certain intensity into his slow speed singing as well as a more 'free bird' approach to neraval - a fantastic imagination. Also he is an excellent collaborator with his team of artistes. From the racy days of overwhelming rounds of brighas, neravals and swaras, he has changed a lot in his manner of presentation, his concerts have become significantly more moving, but the intensity is still there, and how.

Yeah!! You put words to it for me! It is truly intense as you say, he brings out emotion, he shows extreme sensitivity, he modulates - alternates power with finesse, adds moments of rest and silence.. it’s powerful! Did I say that I’ve only attended three concerts of his? All unforgettable. That’s what you hope to experience.

You seem to resonate with me also in how you view his evolution.

Thanks for enjoying my review . I enjoyed writing it.

[Kartike]

Sarcasm is quite crass. Can we stay away from disbursing free polemics. Ranganayaki had an experience. And wrote about it. Cant we stay with the sharing, for some time ?

[/quote]

He forgot the Holy Ghost! Only Yesu and Yesu's Dad. (Not Joseph, but the Big Guy Up There). This is what happens when one goes to The School of J Krishnamurthy and Vivekananda College as opposed to a good Jesuit college like Loyola.
[/quote]

[ram1999]

Sarcasm is quite crass. Can we stay away from disbursing free polemics. Ranganayaki had an experience. And wrote about it. Cant we stay with the sharing, for some time ?

He forgot the Holy Ghost! Only Yesu and Yesu's Dad. (Not Joseph, but the Big Guy Up There). This is what happens when one goes to The School of J Krishnamurthy and Vivekananda College as opposed to a good Jesuit college like Loyola.
[/quote]
[/quote]

seems like an avatar spun to support the cause of the reviewer and TMK

[shankarank]

as opposed to a good Jesuit college like Loyola.

If only he had gone there, he would have known better! Instead he fell prey to some marxist ideology - typical of many educated brahmins!

[Ranganayaki]

( varali alapana followed by soundararajam ashrayE).

No.

It was a Varali-Mukhari Alapana, as a separate piece.

Soundararajam Ashraye followed a quick sketch of Brindavana Saranga. One did not at all get the impression of an irrelevant mix the way it is usually described. They were clearly separate pieces.

Also, All, that Varali Alapana was so good, I pleaded mentally at the end,”Please, please, don’t clap don’t clap don’t clap!!” But as you can guess, they did.

[rajeshnat]

Ranganayaki,
You did not answer my point #55.
TMK is a fantastic varali singer, his masculine voice with deeper intonations will suit it very well.

[shankarank]

That said he does have an outlet for his ego, but it does not involve bending and shaping the music. It is his individuality that comes through when he discards the traditional paddhati. But that is a recent construct and is not inherent to the music., and in my view it is not sacrilegious to do so, and frankly it’s just what I wanted. The predictability was getting a bit boring to me.

Hey it is T.M.Krishna in the first place ( have you read? (read listened?)) who wants to dispel this fanciful notion that our music is some great ancient one!

It is a gross misunderstanding and a lack of appreciation of the inner spirit of that claim, that makes him make such diatribes. As though claiming that it is ancient is what that makes the nitwits and charlatans that form the literate population in India today as not "included" - i.e. the music is not inclusive. It promotes a disdain for the heritage , whether ancient or medieval or even prior generation (நீ உங்கப்பன் ஆத்தாளையே மதிக்கலேன்னா உனக்கு சங்கீதம் என்ன தேவை? கேடு??). Or at a minimum it wants to exploit the disdain for heritage to promote and market the music and earn that extra buck - all in the name of propagating the music, putting everybody who toiled under the bus!

Now you want to discover something inherent to music - that was "originally" there !! Where was it?? What a load of crock??

இத மாதிரி எத்தன பேருடா கிளம்பியிருக்கேங்க ?? உங்கள மாதிரி எத்தன பேர பாத்திருப்போம் ??

May be you could set aside your doubts and give it a try for the music? After all, he is not less human than us, perfectly capable of failings. Why can’t we be generous and let him have his private failings?

What private feeling?? He is all over the naxal media writing columns? You cannot have the cake and eat it as well!

[Ranganayaki]

Hey it is T.M.Krishna in the first place ( have you read? (read listened?)) who wants to dispel this fanciful notion that our music is some great ancient one!

I don’t know what this has to do with anything I wrote. Further, I did say I don’t follow all of TMK’s writing. Now if YOU say something about his thoughts, you should substantiate it with a quote from him. Otherwise i am not going to bother to discuss it.

Regarding the next part of your post, which precedes the part where you quote me again (shown below), you’ve probably guessed that I won’t understand it.

May be you could set aside your doubts and give it a try for the music? After all, he is not less human than us, perfectly capable of failings. Why can’t we be generous and let him have his private failings?

What private feeling?? He is all over the naxal media writing columns? You cannot have the cake and eat it as well!

I understood just your first three words there. You have misread me, take another look. I said “private failings.” Anyway that was specifically addressed to Bilahari, so don’t worry about it if you don’t enjoy reading to understand.

[shankarank]

Regarding the next part of your post, which precedes the part where you quote me again (shown below), you’ve probably guessed that I won’t understand it.

I can clarify this quickly. Whoever is discovering Carnatic music today because of the splashing TMK, why did they ignore it before? Isn't it implied by his statements that it is only 400 years old ( said in a mocking retort to those who claim ancient origin), fact that younger generation were prepared by education system to hate the old , and anything old-fashioned is to be shun!

Haven't you heard this? May be the campus comfort did not expose you to outer world?

[Ranganayaki]

Regarding the next part of your post, which precedes the part where you quote me again (shown below), you’ve probably guessed that I won’t understand it.

I can clarify this quickly. Whoever is discovering Carnatic music today because of the splashing TMK, why did they ignore it before? Isn't it implied by his statements that it is only 400 years old ( said in a mocking retort to those who claim ancient origin), fact that younger generation were prepared by education system to hate the old , and anything old-fashioned is to be shun!

And this is a clarification!!? Yengeyavathu poi muttikkanum!!

Haven't you heard this? May be the campus comfort did not expose you to outer world?

To be able to answer you, i must know what “this” refers to. And which campus do you mean? The one I grew up on? In your mind, if campus life had exposed me to the world, what would I have known? I’m quite curious to know what you are referring to.

[ram1999]

Ranganayaki,
You did not answer my point #55.

The NAtion Wants to Know

[RasikasModerator2]

That said he does have an outlet for his ego, but it does not involve bending and shaping the music. It is his individuality that comes through when he discards the traditional paddhati. But that is a recent construct and is not inherent to the music., and in my view it is not sacrilegious to do so, and frankly it’s just what I wanted. The predictability was getting a bit boring to me.

Hey it is T.M.Krishna in the first place ( have you read? (read listened?)) who wants to dispel this fanciful notion that our music is some great ancient one!

It is a gross misunderstanding and a lack of appreciation of the inner spirit of that claim, that makes him make such diatribes. As though claiming that it is ancient is what that makes the nitwits and charlatans that form the literate population in India today as not "included" - i.e. the music is not inclusive. It promotes a disdain for the heritage , whether ancient or medieval or even prior generation (நீ உங்கப்பன் ஆத்தாளையே மதிக்கலேன்னா உனக்கு சங்கீதம் என்ன தேவை? கேடு??). Or at a minimum it wants to exploit the disdain for heritage to promote and market the music and earn that extra buck - all in the name of propagating the music, putting everybody who toiled under the bus!

Now you want to discover something inherent to music - that was "originally" there !! Where was it?? What a load of crock??

இத மாதிரி எத்தன பேருடா கிளம்பியிருக்கேங்க ?? உங்கள மாதிரி எத்தன பேர பாத்திருப்போம் ??

May be you could set aside your doubts and give it a try for the music? After all, he is not less human than us, perfectly capable of failings. Why can’t we be generous and let him have his private failings?

What private feeling?? He is all over the naxal media writing columns? You cannot have the cake and eat it as well!

Ok, you're crossing a line now. Discussions and disagreements happen, but if you get more acerbic than this, we're going to have to give you an official warning. Your infinite grievances over a wide range of things notwithstanding, please control your anger and ranting.

[shankarank]

Dear Moderator,

Those are sub-altern expressions in a place called Madurai - thats how we talk!! It sounds rude crossing the times! Anyways the forum access is precious to me. Nobody needs to agree with me. My intent is to put some seeds into their mind.

Truth has to stand on its own, there is no need my erudition!

Thank you!

[Pratyaksham Bala]

“Members' Stuff & Lounge” would be the suitable location for the posts from #39 to #72 (except, say, 54, 55, 64 & 65).

[Ranganayaki]

Song list notwithstanding, how was the actual concert?

It was a good concert, the experience was excellent, the music shone through, without too much of the usual acrobatics, and I didn't miss it.

Ranganayaki
You wrote the concert was good and the experience was excellent . For this reason only I have started writing every review and end with overall how it was (below mediocre, mediocre,good,very good,excellent,outstanding or anything in between like good to very good , ). Can you tell over all how the concert was ?? Here I feel there was wide shuffle of words , if the concert was good how can the experience be excellent ?. Please tell overall how it was??

I thought about your question and comments, considered whether there was an inconsistency. I must say that I am totally comfortable with what I wrote. First of all, it is a matter of opinion that I have to use words of the same degree.

I hadn't said anything about the concert till then and I didn't want to say anything to evaluate it, till I had shared what I was writing out. But Srinath asked me a pointed question, and I am usually reluctant to give others an overall judgement. Because it is truly in my mind unimportant, because I can feel it was a great concert, and someone else can feel it was nasty. Just look at your own comment. I loved the Varali-mukhari, I didn't see for a second that it was followed by Soundararajam Ashraye. But if you been there, you would have seen it that way and hated it (which you are welcome to do). So I just don't feel comfortable saying a concert was good or bad - unless of course there were real problems like shruti, kalapramana, etc. so my approach is totally different from yours. I WILL NOT give my judgement like that. But Srinath asked pointedly and I was delaying my review, so I gave him my answer.

If you go back to any of my reviews, you may see that what I describe is always my experience. I give some opinions, but even those are clearly my opinions and not necessarily fact. I am far more comfortable telling you about my experience. So it was my reluctant answer to Srinath on the one hand, and my enthusiastic answer on the other. Your question seemed logical to me, and I did consider whether you were right.

[Ranganayaki]

Rajesh,
I like to give my experience and let the reader judge whether it was a concert they would enjoy. Now you won't like that concert. That is fine. So for you it's not a good concert, and I have no problems with that. But just because you don't like it for your good reasons, you are totally wrong to say that I am wrong to like it, you are wrong to say that I like it in spite of its being a bad concert, and it is only because I like TMK the person so much. That is a bad approach to discussing art. There is no objectivity in discussing art and if you think your reasons for liking or disliking something are correct, you will always be upset at me if I don't have the same opinion as you.

That is not the purpose of art. It can bring people together and we can talk about it even if we disagree. It would be such a wasted opportunity if you fling insults at someone who doesn't feel the way you do about music.

If you like mangoes and I hate them, you won't say I'm wrong, would you? Of course you might feel bad for me that I'm missing out on such a big joy, but you certainly wouldn't feel I'm misguided or my "judgement" is clouded, would you? It's exactly the same thing.

But if you don't like TMK's music because you don't like his views, then certainly your judgement of his music is clouded. You are welcome not to like his views, though, but that would be a totally different discussion.