My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

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RaviSri
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#1 My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri » 04 Feb 2019, 12:05

I have uploaded ‘srI gaNanAtham bhajarE’, the Eesha Manohari raga kriti of Dikshiitar. This is the Veena Dhnammal version of this kriti and was taught to us by our guru Smt.T.Muktha. I intend to upload kritis of the Dhanammal bhANi which we learnt from Muktamma, those that are different from the prevailing versions and not available in Internet recordings.

This has been sung by Sridhar and myself (Ravi)

https://archive.org/details/SriGananath ... iDikshitar
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arasi
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#2 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by arasi » 04 Feb 2019, 12:44

RAviSri,
Happy that you have started recording your pATAntaram and are sharing them with all of us. High time!
Let this thread grow, so that we can all be enriched by hearing what you both have imbibed from such an awesome source. A gambhIra gaNESa made his appearance...:)Waiting for more....
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Ranganayaki
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#3 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by Ranganayaki » 04 Feb 2019, 19:13

Thank you.
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Ramasubramanian M.K
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#4 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K » 05 Feb 2019, 09:49

Thank you RaviSri: Yes--I have never heard this version-differs vastly from the version sung by DKP-DKJ. I was under the impression that theirs was authentic because of the Ambi Dikshithar connection.

I understand that Esamanohari has Harikambodhi. janyam. Another song that DKP/DKJ used to. sing Mnasa Sree Ramachandra which "hews" close to Harikambodhi. Any thoughts on the authenticity of this kriti.Ofcourse the Dhanammal School equally "hews" close to Dikshithar thro the Sattur Panchanadha Iyer connection.

Which version is authentic ?

I generally steer away from such questions of origin or Patantharam because it distracts from the enjoyment and does not add value to the enjoyment. However I am curious!!

As Arasi says what YOU have is a Treasure and needs to be preserved and shared.
Not a single day passes in my life without regretting how I let slip away a golden opportunity. When Viswa Sir was in Wesleyan. I have visited him with my father(whenever he visited US) and he offered to take me under his tutelage,but the distance(100 miles RTP) and family responsibilities prevented me from grabbing the opportunity. After all he was only 10 years old than me and I thought I would have time after my family obligations are discharged. His death was premature.

MORAL: One has to match one's passion with opportunism and "soak" in the experience!!!
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SrinathK
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#5 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK » 05 Feb 2019, 10:19

Interesting to hear this with two nishadams (N2 and N3). @RaviSri, interestingly, this was the very first kriti I learned to play on the violin.
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RaviSri
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#6 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri » 05 Feb 2019, 16:36

Srinath, yes, both nishadams occur. And this version matches perfectly that notated in SSP, including N3. This was the first kriti Muktamma taught us.

MKR, What I have heard is that DKP learnt only one kriti, bAlagOpAlA from Ambi Dikshitar. Sensing her potential after this, Ambi Dikshitar decided to teach her. But he had to go away to Ettayapuram for a while. He did not return. Thereafter, DKP learnt from T.L.Venkatarama Iyer. I don't know how many MD kritis TLV learnt from AD. Mostly, I have heard, he learnt from SSP. We do not know how he interpreted the songs. In my listening experience, I can say that among vocalists, the Dhanammal family had authentic versions of Dikshitar and Shyama Sastri as well as Thyagaraja.

'manasA srI rAmachandruni', B-M also used to sing and I have a recording of it. There is another Thyagaraja song they sang, 'srI jAnaki manOharA'. The N3 does not occur in both these songs of Thyagaraja.
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Ramasubramanian M.K
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#7 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K » 05 Feb 2019, 18:40

Thanks Ravi. I agree with you on the DKP-Ambi Dikshitar connection. I have always wondered HOW much DKP could have learnt from Ambi Dikshitar(AD)--when she was only 16 years old when AD passed away.
As an amateur historian looking for anomalies and inconsistencies in revisionist history, I find the Dhanammal School has the BEST claim to authenticity --free from any particular bias towards the Trinity or other composers. I have read accounts about Dhanammal that she learnt directly or indirectly from Sattanur Panchanada Iyer--one of MD's latter-day disciples--she used to refer to him as Sathanur Ayya.
Also the Walajapet school thro Naina Pillai for Thyagaraja Krithis -I do not know the link to the Syama Sastry school. Likewise the Padams and Javalis. .
What is even more worthy of praise is the fact that they have been willing to teach without holding back if YOU are sincerely dedicated to their Bani and frowned upon "Charlatanism"--this was mistaken to be possessiveness..

My cousin Kalyani Sharma used to tell me stories of the School's precision pedagogy. I still lament despite our family's proximity to the family,I did not fully utilize the opportunity to learn from that school.
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SrinathK
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#8 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK » 06 Feb 2019, 13:14

Both of you sound like the Malladi brothers! If I come to Tiruvannamalai anytime to meditate in Ramanashramam, can I find you there?
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SrinathK
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#9 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK » 06 Feb 2019, 15:52

Oh and share the link to your Youtube channel.
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RaviSri
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#10 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri » 06 Feb 2019, 18:08

If I come to Tiruvannamalai anytime to meditate in Ramanashramam, can I find you there?

Yes, but please inform a week ahead of your visit. We might have gone somewhere.

My youtube channel only has the truncated Nata Pancharatnam. Nothing else i have uploaded. Youtube does not seem to like me, so it refuses to upload.
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RaviSri
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#11 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri » 06 Feb 2019, 18:28

MKR, Dhanammal's grandmother Kamakshi was a disciple of Subbaraya Sastri. Dhanam's mother Sundara was a disciple of Annasamy Sastri. Hence the authenticity of Shyama Sastri kritis in their family. Dhanammal learnt directly from Sathanur Panchanada Iyer, who was not a direct disciple of Dikshitar, but of Shuddha Maddhalam Tambiyappam, the senior most disciple of Dikshitar.

Dhanam acquired her Thyagaraja repertoire from Tiruvotriyur Thyagayyar. B-M learnt Thyagaraja songs from Dhanammal too apart from Naina Pillai.
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RaviSri
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#12 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RaviSri » 06 Feb 2019, 18:33

I have uploaded a song that is very popular. Everyone sings this song, everyone knows this song. But a different version, the Veena Dhanammal version this.

https://archive.org/details/SwaminathaP ... aDikshitar
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SrinathK
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#13 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK » 06 Feb 2019, 19:04

This sounds really gambhira nATa-ish at times skipping that R3 entirely (and maybe a clue to the origin of that name?).

I have Brinda Mukta singing sAmaja vara gamanA in shuddha hindOlam (D2, long story, this was supposedly the original hindolam, then mAlkauns replaced it). I can imagine mOkshamu with D2. :)
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RSR
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#14 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR » 06 Feb 2019, 22:04

RaviSri wrote:
06 Feb 2019, 18:08
.........
My youtube channel only has the truncated Nata Pancharatnam. Nothing else i have uploaded. Youtube does not seem to like me, so it refuses to upload.
============
youtube expects a video or image along with the audio. It is not the best medium for sharing audio. Uploading to ' archives ' is a nice idea. as you have done. May I request you to add some introduction to each upload? it will be nicer.
Another option is 'soundcloud'. Some rasikas may have difficulty in downloading from soundcloud, however.
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RSR
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#15 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR » 06 Feb 2019, 22:24

This is tribute to DKP by ' Gamakam.'
"அம்பி தீட்சிதரிடம் நேரில் பாடம் கேட்ட பேறினைப் பெற்ற பட்டம்மாள், அவரின் மறைவுக்குப்
பின் தீட்சிதரின் மற்றொரு சீடரான டி.எல்.வெங்கடராம ஐயரிடம் பல அரிய பாடல்களைக் கற்றார். இயற்கையாகவே நல்ல கனமுள்ள சாரீரமும், ஸ்ருதி சுத்தமும், சௌக்க காலத்தில் பாடும் போதும் நல்ல காலப்ரமாண நிர்ணயமும் பெற்றிருந்ததால், முத்துசாமி தீட்சிதரின் பாடல்களை பட்டம்மாள் பாடிய போது அவை தனித்த அழகுடன், கம்பீரத்துடனும், ஓர் அலங்கரிக்கப்பட்ட பட்டத்து யானையின் பவனி போல ஒலித்தன. இன்னம் சொல்லப் போனால், பல தீட்சிதர் கிருதிகள் பட்டம்மாள் பாடித்தான் மக்களிடையே பரவின.அவர் பாடிய ‘மீனலோசனி ப்ரோவ’, ‘மாமவ பட்டாபிராமா’ போன்ற பாடல்கள் இசையுள்ள வரை நிற்கும்! காலப்போக்கில், D.K.பட்டம்மாள் என்ற பெயரில் D.K.-ஐ Dikshitar Krithis என்றே குறித்தனர். "
-------
"T. Muktha: The last bastion of an inimitable tradition
http://sruti.com/index.php?route=archiv ... &artId=123
( article in sruti magazine by RAVI & SRIDHAR

Only Pattammal and I are left now. Why should I live anymore?” This was the constant refrain of the veteran vocalist and doyenne of the Veena Dhanammal family, after her close friend M.S. Subbulakshmi passed away.

=======================================================
Justice T.L. Venkatarama Iyer is widely recognized as a scholar musician. He too might have referred to SSP. And MD krithis have been rendered by other stalwarts like MMI, too. Except for historical accuracy purposes, we can retain non B-M versions too. when they have been accepted by great artistes.
Let us not denigrate any artiste especially from the past. What are we to do with numerous krithis by many other composers like Purandaradasa , set to music by his disciples and admirers perhaps? of Badrachalam Ramadasar? of Sadasiva Brammendram?
The famous versions will linger in our hearts whether we know or not of their 'authenticity'.
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bhakthim dehi
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#16 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi » 07 Feb 2019, 19:12

Let us not denigrate any artiste especially from the past.
I think you have misinterpreted the discussion. I cannot find any artists being denigrated. In fact this discussion and these versions are very interesting. Many of us don't know the version sung by B-M. This is an opportunity to listen from their disciple.

There is nothing wrong in mentioning about the tutelage of any particular artist (if that is what your concern is). The repertoire of an artist is dependent upon the teacher whom he/ she or learnt from and this is an aid to understand their repertoire too.

I feel we are in an era where we can not only access many rare materials but also be able to record it for posterity. This becomes important to understand the evolution that our ragas and music have witnessed. If you have followed me, you could have sensed my apprehension about these changes and more importantly 'retunitis' (apt term coined by SrinathK). These kind of exercises make us to get an idea about these older versions.
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RSR
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#17 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR » 07 Feb 2019, 19:47

RAVI and SRIDHAR ....biography of Muthuswamy Dikshithar.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 0WgHh2Rm64
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May be already available in Dikshithar thread,
For those, who missed it.
-----------------------------------------
So long as the versions are not too very absurdly different, we can just mention that this is B-M version. and where it differs from the other versions. We can even assert that this is the authentic version.
In our forum, we are not always very careful in differentiating the lyrical composition from the musical composition. We tend to believe that both are same. ( not correct) but then there is insufficient information about that. No harm. Who tuned Annamacharya krithis" Do we admire the krithis for the theme and lyrical quality or the music?
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bhakthim dehi
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#18 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi » 07 Feb 2019, 19:52

very careful in differentiating the lyrical composition from the musical composition.
What is the difference ?
Who tuned Annamacharya krithis" Do we admire the krithis for the theme and lyrical quality or the music?
Yes, we do. How is this related here?

Also, in this case , we are left with only two options - either don't sing those compositions or sing by re tuning it. Second is much logical and that is being followed.
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RSR
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#19 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR » 07 Feb 2019, 20:33

Smt.DKP was humble enough to admit that she had sung a few krithis without knowing that they were spurious Dikshithar krithis.
Here is an excerpt from an interview given by her.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1616/16160670.htm
--------------------------------------------
" RK: I would like you to clarify a few doubts about Dikshitar kritis. Subbarama Dikshitar has put together 250 keertanas in Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini and we all accept that as authentic. But now, many songs that are not in that collection are also passed off as Dikshitar kritis. How authentic are these?
Yes. There are many spurious songs attributed to Muthuswami Dikshitar. Some such as the popular kriti "Akilandeswari", in Dwajawanthi, are not Dikshitar kritis. But they are all passed off as his. T.L.Venkatarama Iyer made a specific point when he said that "Akilandeswari" was not Dikshitar's kriti.

RK: There are also some other keertanas in this category. For instance, "Sri Ranganatham" in Poornachandrika. The chittaswaram in that song is the same as the one rendered in "Paluka Vemi". How did that come about?

I was responsible for that. I tried it and then discussed it with Venkatarama Iyer, who encouraged me to go ahead.

RK: What about "Gananayakam"?

Again, there is a problem with that. Some say it is in Rudrapriya and others say it is in Poornasajjam. I am not clear on that.

RK: You sing "Gananayakam" in Poornasajjam. Isn't it?

Yes. I learnt it from Venkatarama Iyer.

RK: Some other keertanas, such as "Gajanana Yutham" in Vegavahini, do not have the grandeur of Dikshitar kritis...

Yes. Also, "Gajamba Nayako" in Junjooti, which even I used to sing. Some composers have spuriously introduced such songs as Dikshitar kritis so that they become popular especially when rendered by leading artists.
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RSR
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#20 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by RSR » 07 Feb 2019, 20:45

@18-> a) I thought, everyone in this forum knows the difference between the lyrics of a krithi and the music of that krithi. There was a very illuminating thread earlier in this forum.
b) Many of us have heard a lot of krithis, more for the theme and lyrics, assuming that the krithi composers tuned the songs themselves. Only subsequently, we learn that very little is known about the 'tunesmiths' to use the word in the discussion earlier.
------------------
wonderful thread... ( inputs from 'munirao' and 'harimau')
What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?
-----------------------------------------------
Even if the composer like Subramanya Barathy had indicated the ragam in which he wants it to be sung, it is not always followed... Perhaps, all for the Good. A poet may not be best person to create the tune for the poem. Let us await and benefit by further uploadings by the OP.
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shankarank
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#21 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by shankarank » 07 Feb 2019, 23:31

RSR wrote:
07 Feb 2019, 20:33
RK: There are also some other keertanas in this category. For instance, "Sri Ranganatham" in Poornachandrika. The chittaswaram in that song is the same as the one rendered in "Paluka Vemi". How did that come about?

I was responsible for that. I tried it and then discussed it with Venkatarama Iyer, who encouraged me to go ahead.
Well Prof SRJ(s) son who is a member here, had mentioned to me that SrI dIkshitar's parampara kept Janaranjani and pURNAcandrikA as one and same and Prof SRJ(s) rendition of Sankhacakra gadApANim reflects that! If so the ciTTAsvaram had to be slightly different! This thing will unravel itself in many directions ;)
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Ranganayaki
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#22 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by Ranganayaki » 08 Feb 2019, 11:23

SrinathK wrote:
06 Feb 2019, 19:04
I can imagine mOkshamu with D2. :)
I’m not sure I understand the relevance of this last sentence.. would you explain why you added that?
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bhakthim dehi
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#23 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi » 08 Feb 2019, 12:18

Janaranjani and pURNAcandrikA as one and same
You mean to say SRGMPMR is seen in the sanka cakra of Deekshithar ?
I thought, everyone in this forum knows the difference between the lyrics of a krithi and the music of that krithi. There was a very illuminating thread earlier in this forum.


You can explain or at least post the link for people who doesn't know, like me.
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SrinathK
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#24 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by SrinathK » 08 Feb 2019, 12:34

@Ranganayaki Wait and see, all these things will come out in the ragas section. I confess I am very surprised by the findings going back in time.

Yes, mOkshamu had D2, not the D1 that it has now. That's why Brinda-Mukta never sang it. Abheri had D1, which was why GNB never sang nagumOmu.
Last edited by SrinathK on 08 Feb 2019, 13:34, edited 1 time in total.
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bhakthim dehi
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#25 Re: My Recordings of Veena Dhanammal Versions

Post by bhakthim dehi » 08 Feb 2019, 12:49

Yes, mOkshamu had D2, not the D1 that it has now.
Textual references always mention Saramathi as a ragam with suddha dhaivatam. I believe, to understand scales like these with no great antiquity,we need to rely only on these texts.
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