Raga Moods

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 06 Aug 2007, 04:58

Suvarnangi for me evokes mixed emotions and perhaps difficult to render as well.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Aug 2007, 07:33

CML,
The same rAgA sung (played) by the same artiste at a particular time can evoke different responses in different people. The thread on SubhapantuvarALi is an example. Several rasikAs said that it makes them feel sad (for me, it is soothing). Let us not forget lyrics. The same lyrics (in different rAgAs here, granted) can signal different meanings and elicit different responses. Example: from the film Miss Malini, the line, balE jOr balE jOr paTTaNa vAsam means two entirely different things! The city woman singing that living in a city is great (balE jOr), and her country friend singing exactly the same words but with sarcasm, saying that it is nothing but a wasteful way of life. The famous line, kuttAlaththile iDi iDIccA kOAmbattUr viLAkkaNaiyum, tenkASiyile tEL koTTinA tiruppatiyile neRi kaTTumAM...

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 06 Aug 2007, 09:37

hi CML Sir,
Ragam aTTANA, usally known to be a Veera Rasam, Dhairyam , and Ghambheeram etc, was totally transformed into a KARUNYA RASAM flowing profusely through his Kriti nI irangAdenil pugal Edu".The kriti is creation of our 20th century legend, TamilTyAgarAja, Papanasam shivan the great .and coming to the tech.point of it , it is due to the fact that the pallavi line starts with THE heart rending swarasthanam NEE, ( supposed to be the inherited region of AmbaL) has been craftily woven with the sahityam which added divinity to the kriti besides enriching the melody and whereby transforming into a soul-stirring BhAvam
Ramaraj

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Aug 2007, 09:45

Agreed arasi!
Even the same lyric sung differently can be happy and sad. For example in the movie 'mahAdEvi' where MN Rajam sings 'Singaara chelvangaL..' first as a lullby and then as a dirge when her son is killed, is quite poignant.

But I am looking for a 'raga' which can evoke entirely opposite moods 'in all' listeners (not depending upon their emotional status). Take for example aTANA which generally evokes feeling of heroism; is there a song where it is used to produce 'shAntam'? My claim is that ragas have the moods generally built into them and they cannot be used out of context (even if the lyric is written to deliver an inconsistent mood).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Aug 2007, 09:57

Thanks for the response Ramraj.
In that nice song the element of 'bossiness' is still evident. PS is demanding Devi as though he is claiming a right. Try singign the same sahityam in Sama, then you will immediately hear the plaintive beseech! Of course the loss of the nishadam replaced by the dhaivtam mollifies note!

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 06 Aug 2007, 13:35

CML Sir, The salient point I want to stress is that each and every swara or swarasthana has its own individual,characteristic in so far as it concerns to the mood of a particular Raga.Generally sudha swaras have a natural tendancy to produce plaintive moods and rakthi swaras like chatusruti R, Chatusruti .daivatam Antara Gaandharam have a tendency to produce Utsaaham, Anandham and shantam.As u have rightly opined lyrics also contribute to the mood if the right raga is chosen for presenting the particular mood of the entire sahityam.It is the inexplicable greatness of our divine CM and also of the seers of yore who have imbibed the intricate aspects and presented to the discerning and everlasting musical ears
Since u made mention about Ragam Saama, I have the proclivity to request u to view and listen to one of my kritis in SAAMA- "rADHEY sHYaMALANE"
Link ref.www.karnatik.com/c3534.shtml which will give u some idea as to how I handled this particular piece.About the nishadam I have to dwell in volumes and there wil be virtually no end to it, even till my life time !!.I think this can be discussed in the tech.thread of this forum.
Ramaraj

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Aug 2007, 20:32

We can continue the discussion started at Manda sudha rani here more focussed on the topic. Thanks

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Aug 2007, 21:20

Dear Ramraj
We can discuss your Sama kriti (well crafted but the audio is very weak) in a separate thread.

I am fascinated by your comment on the distinctive characteristic of each note in CM. It is well known that animals (especially birds) use sounds in different frequencies to convey their moods. These sound messages (pun intended

are conveyed over long distances to warn/inform their colleagues of their current predicament. As we know very well that our basic notes by their nomenclature have been derived from animal sounds (also based on physiological locations) it is logical to assume specific moods to the common 'alphabets' of CM. It is interesting to speculate that the ragas were crafted to exploit the specific sound characterristics of the basic notes which then intrinsically create the appropriate moods. Thyagaraja was indeed a past master in using the raga with the right message in his lyrics. Of course to understand the mood correctly one need to understand the general meaning of the sahityam (thanks to VGV for his great service!). It is conceivable that he composed the sahityam as he was experiencing the appropriate 'mood' and the ragas 'appeared' naturally. Therein lies the difference between a vaggeyakara and a poet where the former pays attention to 'shabda' (which in sanskrit means both sound as well as words) whereas the latter is more concerned with only 'words' (the meaning conveyed).

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 06 Aug 2007, 21:31

dear CML and other CM devotees,
Our beloved P.S has not lagged behind in incorporating the karuNA rasam even in film music.Here again he has started a song with NEE that too in what is considered to be a raga with All Rakthi Swarams.It is the great Raga KaraHarapriya. And The song
"nI illAmal aNuvum asaiyumO" sung by P.U.Chinnappa-I forgot the name of the film .Pl. excuse. And another in the same raga K.H.priya he has started with Chatusruti Daivatam and the song "dayavillayA dayALO enmEl-
tAyum tandayum nI yallavO
The film VedALaulagum.
"Da Ni da ni da pa ma ga ri ga mA mA"
What a beauty !!!
And again : "Sirudum kavailaip paDAdE"- Mangamma sabadam
da ni da da pa ma ga ri ga mA ma
whereas in is master piece kriti "JANAKI PATEY"
NEE PA DAA MA PA
He statrs with same nishadam but a different mood altogather.Here I want to
re-stress the point that the mood of the composer at a given situation also plays a significant part when question of reflecting the mood of the raga or it may be taken this way. Uttama Vageyakaras of acclaim would have the natural flair and tendency
to net pick the appropriate raga to any given sahityam and craftily handle /nay tame
them to their heart's fill and hand it over to the discerning ears.Thanks Narayan Ji for transferring the discussion to the appropriate thread , enabling a more meaningful discussion " Living upto the forum's expectations "RIGHT MOODS FOR THE RIGHT DISCUSSIONS,WITH THE RIGHT THREAD.
rAMARAJ

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Aug 2007, 21:54

Couldn't resist citing the superb 'naDayalankAram kaNDEn'
(N D ND P,,...) of PS divinely sung by PUC (in kharaharapriya in KuberakuchEla) where the powerful Nishaadam sets the tone for the majestic dance of TR Rajakumari....

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 06 Aug 2007, 23:22

Dear CMl, There you are !!! A superb example for the the great Vageyakara"s prowess , portraying sringaara rasam with the same Kar.H.Priya.And another one "ATTam enna solluven" starting with chatusruti rishabham and another one from vAlmiki "BhagavAn avadarippar" again starting with da ni da da pa mA . And it may be surprising to note that in Annamayya's Okapari ko ka pari, my guru Nedunoori garu adopted the Bhagavan avasdarippar tune and it has become a universally popular and unparalelled melody
attracting even youngsters of today.
There is another one "nAnmugan paDaippil yAvarum samamE
nalam pera ninai manamE dinamE"
I forgot the name of the film. GA RI SA NI DA NI SA; NI DA PA PA DA NI
DA NI DA PA GA GA MA GA RI
Starting with sAdAraNa ghAndhAram and employing a philosophical mood, emphasizing the legacy in his own inimical and musically reverberating way. There is no gain saying the fact that we are actually blessed and privileged to have lived during his time
Ramaraj

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Aug 2007, 20:35

CML,
Just read Rama Ravi's concert review. She sang aTANA, and it was 'tiruvoRRiyUr tyAgarAjan'. Just by humming it, I hear the composition essaying SringAra rasa with meditative recollection. I see Balasaraswathi dancing to it (retrieved from my memory) and if I say I don't feel any vIra rasA in it, could it be a personal thing? 'pArtta kaNgaL pArtadu pOl, pArtaviDattil ellAm', and the one and only's abhinayam fills my mind...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2007, 20:50

Ha Balasarasvati!
When she peforms the music recedes to the background and you can get the feel of any of the navarasas. Of course the eyes are more powerful than the ears! Just don't close them (except in recall memory!) lest you get lost in a different world

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Aug 2007, 20:58

Does this mean you don't agree with me on the rAga balA (not bAlA)?
The scientist taking over from the rasikA?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2007, 21:23

It is not the 'scientist' but that bAlA did take over rAga balA

As Ramraj has stated aThANA can convey karuNa rasam beautifully.
Proof: Listen to Somu's 'Ramanaamamu janmarakshaka mantram..'
I guess if you restrain the 'PA NI' (I didn't mean withhold the 'kAveri' water from the thirsty

then you can subdue the heroism of aThANA!

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 07 Aug 2007, 22:12

Dear CML and arasi,
Purandaradasa's "sakala graha bala nInE sarasijiAkshA" in kanDa chApu depicts Bhakthi rasam as well karunarasam in the caraNam lines.wherein even the though the taLam itself is generally considered to be meant for Veera rasa delination.Example "ChedE bhudhi mAnura of thyAgarAja in K.cApu, like wise "anupama guNAmbudhi.
"Varugiran unnaitkEdi sringara combined with anger
kadavaisAttadi kaiyyil kAsilladavan kaDavule AanAalum" A famous jAvali supposed
to be by a call girl-
and our inimicable Thyagaraja' s roudhraBhavam(anger mingled with karunasaram is adequately expressed in his master piece kriti "ilalO praNadArdhi haruDanucu pErevariTiri "- meaning "who gave YOU the name PRANADHARDHI HARUDU.
Our seers of yore are simply great !!
Ramaraj

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 07 Aug 2007, 22:36

Dear CMl
One more kriti with unparralled karuNarasam by Thygaiah struck my mind just now.
" ElA nIdaya rAdu ? but starting with a.pall: Balakanaka maya ( as is done by most of the artists) will give a ghambheeratwam , and "rArA dEvAthidEvA" will suddenly transforms both the earlier moods into Bhakthirasa altogather. What a beauty ! beauty !! beauty!!!all the way !!!!
Ramaraj

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2007, 23:21

Excellent Ramraj! The sparks fly in all directions!

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 08 Aug 2007, 14:27

RamaRaj/Arasi/CML,
How does Jayachamaraja Wodeyar's Sri Mahaganapathim fare?And how does HMB's 'jagadgurO dayAnidhE' compare?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 08 Aug 2007, 16:08

" ElA nIdaya rAdu ? but starting with a.pall: Balakanaka maya ( as is done by most of the artists)

The true substance of the kRti is 'Ela nI daya rAdu' and 'rArA dEvAdi dEva'. This karuNa rasa is totally drowned in the non-substantial 'bAla kanaka maya'.

If the artist could place himself in place of Sri tyAgarAja for a moment, he will realise how he should sing the kRti.

But where are such great artists who become the character - at least for the duration of performance - a la Bala Saraswati? - you can count them in fingers.

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 08 Aug 2007, 17:31

Dear VGV sir, your views are quite note worthy.
It shows to to prove and establish that sat guru Thyagiah, beyond any dent of doubt,was not only a Gayaka , & LYRICIST but a KAVI SAARVA BHAUMA , and all combined togather- an emulative , UTHAMA VAGEYAKARA , besides being a RAAMA BHAKTHA . The very thought of placing oneself ( as rightly opined by you) and getting immersed in to the depth of his kritis would undoubtedly take oneself to the altar of Rama Bhakthi, the divine vehicle to sublimate with the Lotus feet of the SUPREME !!!
Ramaraj
,

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 08 Aug 2007, 17:42

Dear kartikji, Thank u for bringing to notice The great master piece kriti"Sri Mahaganapathim" of (J.C).To my knowledge no one else has crafted such a majestic Kriti in the raga aTANA in praise of the Lord GANAPATHY.
I have not so far got acquainted with the other kriti by HMB , but I would love to do so.
Ramaraj

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 08 Aug 2007, 20:26

I also feel that shri kumAranagarAlayE is a very tranquil and meditative treatment of aTANA, completely different from the usual brisk approach.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Aug 2007, 20:49

If the artist could place himself in place of Sri tyAgarAja for a moment, he will realise how he should sing the kRti.

Immediately MDR comes to my mind.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Aug 2007, 21:23

VK
IMHO MDR was always thinking interms of Tiger (his Guru( rather than the composer. Of course 'Giripai' is an exception!
I was thinking more about MVI.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 08 Aug 2007, 22:35

prashant wrote:I also feel that shri kumAranagarAlayE is a very tranquil and meditative treatment of aTANA, completely different from the usual brisk approach.

That is truly a fine krti on the Devi of Kumaranallur temple, by Swati Tirunal. Perhaps the best there is in this raga. Even here, the "brisk" approach becomes easily evident in the charanam which has more sahitya in it, creating an illusion of brisk pace even when the tala tempo is unchanged.

It is worthwhile comparing the charanam sahitya in "srikumara"to typical MD sahityas. The charanam (specifically, the third one, which is usually sung) is a gem of poetic expression reminiscent of the classical poets. While ST employs some of the same devices as MD (such as word-splitting and long compounds), his diction and imagination are more in line with that of the classical poets. Compounds like "mandahAsaruCininditEndukarakundavrndamakarandabindusandOhasamvalitasundarAmbujAsyE" bring this out clearly.

Another outstanding krti in atana is MD's "brhaspate" on Jupiter.

SR

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 09 Aug 2007, 00:35

prashant wrote:I also feel that shri kumAranagarAlayE is a very tranquil and meditative treatment of aTANA, completely different from the usual brisk approach.

Are there any online links to this kriti?

-Ramakriya

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 09 Aug 2007, 10:48

Will try and dig something up when I am back home.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Aug 2007, 20:49

Ramakriya! I missed your post. Try the following
http://www.swathithirunal.in/htmlfile/341.htm

I endorse prasant's viewpoint!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Aug 2007, 21:01

Lovely rendering by Srivalsa Menon. Wish he had sung a few more verses...

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 10 Aug 2007, 04:07

OVK has composed a beautiful 'Vande Valmiki Kokilam' in Atana,which is one of the few kritis dedicated to Valmiki.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Aug 2007, 07:44

Now here is an Atana of Karukurici Arunachalam which you must listen
http://www.mediafire.com/?72jnnrgtdzh
This very nicely illustartes the point made by Ramraj earlier as to how 'ela nI daya rAdu..' could indeed convey the dhainya bhava contrary to the way it is usually sung by vocalists. KA uses long karvai with descending jarus which mollify the impact of the strong nishadam which is hard to imitate vocally. The preliminary aalaapana itself illustrates the different gentle mood created by aTANA. Pl comment your reactions.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 10 Aug 2007, 09:12

CML,

Thanks for that excellent upload. The alapana was thoroughly enjoyable.

I believe the issue of raga moods is highly subjective but still amenable to some 'rational' understanding.

I think many rasiks are influenced by categorical statements that might have been in circulation in the earlier days (e.g., "X raga conveys Y rasa"). Most ragas are more complex and allow a more varied range of expressions.

The notion of using a single raga (of sufficient scope) for portraying different rasas has been exploited by every major composer and is an integral part of Indian classical music. Composers like MD and ST often use a form of "refined/understated/dignified emotion" in their krtis, which is traditionally considered a hallmark of "classical" art forms in India, while composers like Tyagaraja represent somewhat of a departure from this concept by expressing more "raw emotion".

Note also that a careful hearing of the pallavi and anupallavi "srikumaranagaralaye" and "brhaspate" indicates that their musical movement ("chalan") is very similar, yet the two evoke very different emotions. A big difference is in the sahitya - MD's "brhaspate" is full of masculine expressions showing the virility of Jupiter, whereas ST's "srikumara" is very feminine in construction as befits the Devi. Constructions like "mandahAsa...." (see previous post) create doubt whether it is in fact Kalidasa (the unparalleled connoisseur of feminine beauty) writing !

Regarding Athana (also recollecting the previous discussion in the Raga section), the alapana you uploaded is a great illustration of the kanada origins of the raga. Perhaps the "pure swaras" as plied by the instrumentalist bring this out even more clearly than a vocalist could. Arunachalam dwells on the tara shadja with a number of prayogas around this swara, which are essentially kanada features with minor changes. From a purely musical point of view (forgetting about sahitya) this can also explain the "other" rasas expressed by this raga. In this respect, the hindustani view of raga construction has great merit in understanding why multiple "rasas" seem to be well depicted by a raga when employed in certain ways.

In summary, this post is a short way of hinting at the unfathomed depths of complexity in CM due to the combination of raga and sahitya, and continues the views expressed by other members in this thread !

Best Wishes,
SR

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Aug 2007, 09:46

SR (SR? See the other thread started by Suryaprakash!),
As always, your post is erudite, a true classicist that you are! For someone who has been drawn into CM only five years ago (please correct me if I am wrong) you know an awful lot about it, brilliant as I imagine you to be.

With TyagarAjA, I am not comfortable with the adjective 'raw' when you speak of his emotions. A flow of emotions? Yes. While the grandeur of the classical nature of MD is adored and revered by us all, T's outpourings have a directness which touches our hearts and soul. I don't think you meant it in the way it comes across...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 10 Aug 2007, 10:08

Arasi,

arasi wrote:SR (SR? See the other thread started by Suryaprakash!),
As always, your post is erudite, a true classicist that you are! For someone who has been drawn into CM only five years ago (please correct me if I am wrong) you know an awful lot about it, brilliant as I imagine you to be.

I have been learning CM for almost 25 years and composing in it for about 10 years. I have no idea where you obtained the impression that I was drawn into CM 5 years ago.

With TyagarAjA, I am not comfortable with the adjective 'raw' when you speak of his emotions. A flow of emotions? Yes. While the grandeur of the classical nature of MD is adored and revered by us all, T's outpourings have a directness which touches our hearts and soul. I don't think you meant it in the way it comes across...

This is not an MD versus T comparison per se, neither am I trying to impress upon the CMF members the greatness of MD or any other composer in this thread. Previous posts have touched upon the portrayal of multiple rasas using the 'directness' or 'raw emotions' expressed by T as an example. T's compositions are very convenient as an illustration as these emotions contained in them can directly/immediately can be appreciated. The point of my post was that this is a general characteristic of all major composers.

SR

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Aug 2007, 19:51

Sangeet Rasik wrote:Note also that a careful hearing of the pallavi and anupallavi "srikumaranagaralaye" and "brhaspate" indicates that their musical movement ("chalan") is very similar, yet the two evoke very different emotions. A big difference is in the sahitya - MD's "brhaspate" is full of masculine expressions showing the virility of Jupiter, whereas ST's "srikumara" is very feminine in construction as befits the Devi. Constructions like "mandahAsa...." (see previous post) create doubt whether it is in fact Kalidasa (the unparalleled connoisseur of feminine beauty) writing !

Are you also implying that the musical phrases they chose would be in line with the expressions (masculine/feminine) of the sahitya? I mean for people who don't follow sanskrit (and there are many among those who enjoy cm - myself included), I presume they can perhaps still sense the difference in mood and that can be conveyed only the musical phrases (?).

cml - i also loved the alapana. Maybe it was me but alapana was more "toned down" a bit sombre compared to krithi where the tempo was up. I

I could be mistaken but it seems to be that "da" with emphasis is one chief contributor for vIra rasa in aTANA. I didnt analyze the alapana very much, but it seemed he was avoiding that usage and was treading the uttaranga "softly" and thus the different mood.

Sangeet Rasik wrote:In this respect, the hindustani view of raga construction has great merit in understanding why multiple "rasas" seem to be well depicted by a raga when employed in certain ways.

While i certainly could not relate (went over my head), but what reading I did of Rajan Parrikar's articles on sawf.org, this was indeed very evident.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Aug 2007, 19:56

So, I was mistaken! And, I was right too! Someone who sings, composes and speaks of music as you do has simply got to be a genius I thought, to have been exposed to CM just for five years! Hope I didn't hit a raw nerve there. Apologies for--you have guessed--a senior moment.
I am tempted to call you DR. SR now. Discerning rasika

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2007, 02:14

SR

Since you brought up the language (sanskrit) and MD's approach I am just commenting. MD usually goes for meaningful pithy compounds more like kALidAsa. Mega compounds like those of Bhavabhuti's will be a rarity. Take for example the compound you quoted:
"mandahAsaruCininditEndukarakundavrndamakarandabindusandOhasamvalitasundarAmbujAsyE"
Technically it ought be split as
mandahAsaruCininditEndukara ambujAsyE ca
kundavrndamakarandabindusandOhasamvalitasundara ambujAsyE
The pradhAna is ambujAsya (lotusface), let us call it X. There are now two descriptions AX and BX both of which are appropriate. Now when you form the compound ABX, it normally follows that B which is qualified by A qualifies X. In this case it becomes ridiculous since A does not qualify B! Of course you can invoke poetic license or abstruse grammatic exceptions. But simplicity is the key to nice sahityam! Of course MD excels in that context as does Thyagaraja (in Telugu)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Aug 2007, 03:16

Arun,
Exactly my reactions! I thought the AlApanA was spun so finely that it floated along like a cloud without having to anchor itself solidly with a dA, to speak of valor and grandeur. For a song which is replete with majesty, even there, I noticed karaikurichi continuing the light touch somewhat...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 11 Aug 2007, 06:22

arunk wrote:Are you also implying that the musical phrases they chose would be in line with the expressions (masculine/feminine) of the sahitya? I mean for people who don't follow sanskrit (and there are many among those who enjoy cm - myself included), I presume they can perhaps still sense the difference in mood and that can be conveyed only the musical phrases

.

No, I was not implying that in the specific case being considered. In this case (athana) there is not a whole lot to choose from in terms of musical phraseology, which is fairly limited. The "chalan" of both compositions in the pallavi and anupallavi is very similar, the real difference is in the sahitya. If both pieces were presented (by the same musician) to a person who does not understand a word of Sanskrit then I doubt they would be able to pick out the difference in "rasa". Most rasiks of CM know at least a few words of Sanskrit and should be easily able to pick out "aggressive" and "masculine" adjectives such as "mahAbalavibhO". Of course, there are abundant cases in which the raga alone suffices to convey difference in "rasa".

I could be mistaken but it seems to be that "da" with emphasis is one chief contributor for vIra rasa in aTANA.

You are correct. Notice also that the very end of the recording, where he concludes the piece, could easily be mistaken for kanada.

Sangeet Rasik wrote:While i certainly could not relate (went over my head), but what reading I did of Rajan Parrikar's articles on sawf.org, this was indeed very evident.

The number of ragas in HM is rather limited, because they use very specific "aesthetic" criteria to judge if a raga is worthwhile/original enough: e.g., what the vadi-samvadi swaras, what are the main clusters of swaras that create a distinctive melodic framework, etc.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 11 Aug 2007, 06:37

arasi wrote:So, I was mistaken! And, I was right too! Someone who sings, composes and speaks of music as you do has simply got to be a genius I thought, to have been exposed to CM just for five years! Hope I didn't hit a raw nerve there. Apologies for--you have guessed--a senior moment.
I am tempted to call you DR. SR now. Discerning rasika

Arasi,

I don't know what you are talking about

, and what "raw nerve" you are apologizing for. However, I accept your apologies for whatever reason they were tendered. Let me return the favor and apologize for any "Junior Moments", whatever they might be in the past, present or future.

As the Queen of CMF, you can feel free to call me DR SR if you want to - but it might get confusing with drshrikaanth (DRS) on the forum as well. I don't want that level of formality on CMF and I definitely don't want to be addressed by CMF members as "Dr" or "Professor" etc !

SR

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Aug 2007, 07:42

Message understood, Sangeet Rasik. As far as I am concerned, I wouldn't--even in my senior moments--have any confusion when it comes to telling DR. Srikaanth from others...

Apologies were for??
My not being sure about the number of years you have associated yourself with CM. Since you were not offended, I will withdraw them!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 11 Aug 2007, 07:54

cmlover wrote:MD usually goes for meaningful pithy compounds more like kALidAsa. Mega compounds like those of Bhavabhuti's will be a rarity.

Let me substantiate and clarify my previous comment. Super-long compounds are always a relative rarity, whether in MD or ST or Kalidasa for that matter. ST also uses mainly the "meaningful" and "pithy" compounds that are not too long.

But ST's felicity in the creative use of the Sanskrit language (of which he was a master) certainly stands above MD and indeed that of any vaggeyakara.

MD's diction is very "solid", austere, always dependent on material from smrti (puranas) and shastras like jyotishi, tantra etc. It is no doubt erudite/scholarly and achieved exactly the effect that MD desired to create, but in terms of originality it contains little "new material" or "new themes". MD's overriding strength, like Sankaracharya, is that of an cultural integrator par excellence.

But MD's poetry (or rather, I should say "prose-in-verse") never rises (and was not intended to rise) to the beautiful "flights of fancy" that made poets like Kalidasa famous all over the world. ST's diction,"romantic" imagination, and sheer command of Sanskrit belong to the latter class and are unsurpassed among Indian vaggeyakaras. Plenty of examples: e.g., "cancadaLilaLitALakE tilakAncitaSaSadharakalALikE" in "pahi parvatanandini mam ayi" (Arabhi) is truly brilliant imagination integrated beautifully with musical prosody.

Take for example the compound you quoted:
"mandahAsaruCininditEndukarakundavrndamakarandabindusandOhasamvalitasundarAmbujAsyE"
Technically it ought be split as
mandahAsaruCininditEndukara ambujAsyE ca
kundavrndamakarandabindusandOhasamvalitasundara ambujAsyE
The pradhAna is ambujAsya (lotusface), let us call it X. There are now two descriptions AX and BX both of which are appropriate. Now when you form the compound ABX, it normally follows that B which is qualified by A qualifies X. In this case it becomes ridiculous since A does not qualify B!Of course you can invoke poetic license or abstruse grammatic exceptions.

The compound seems to follow perfectly the vigraha which it is supposed to follow. There are no abstruse exceptions needed. This is a bahuvrihi used as a possessive epithet, and such compounds can be extremely intricate. Note the pradhana is NOT ambujAsya (in a bahuvrihi the pradhana is not part of the compound) !

The running translation of the compound is "She whose beautiful lotus-face is lit up by a lustrous moon-like smile which arises from milking of nectar-drops from a multitude of fragrant flowers".

ST was no amateur and he certainly knew what he was doing !

This affinity of ST with the classical poets was by no means accidental, and I am not "making all this up". The Keralan elite has had a long-standing fascination with Kalidasa and other classical poets and dramatists. The 'manipravalam' literature draws heavily upon these classical poets and Sanskrit drama lives only in Kerala in the present day.

But simplicity is the key to nice sahityam!

Sometimes simplicity is good, but if that was all then the art form would be very limited in scope. As I mentioned, the "Mt Everest" of CM is the combination of both intricate raga and sahitya with the underlying great foundation of Indian civilization and its achievements.

SR

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Aug 2007, 08:09

The DR reference came from CML's labels--SR, CR, SP, and CP in Suryaprakash's thread. I am not offended that you call me queen, becuse it is my name. However, I am not the queen of RasikAs forum. I am a member in the forum and happen to have a name which means 'queen' in tamizh.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2007, 09:55

SR
The sanskrit of MD is simple but chaste. That of ST is also erudite and chaste. The latter is not by any means superior because of the complex compounds which cannot be resolved meaningfully all the time. You are going too far trying to equate ST with kALidasa. That however is not my point of contention. In fact you have not answered my query. According to your interpretaion viz.,

"She whose beautiful lotus-face is lit up by a lustrous moon-like smile which arises from milking of nectar-drops from a multitude of fragrant flowers".

we have two compounds viz.,
ninditEndukararuCimandahAsa ambujAsyE (you the one with "lotus-face which has a gentle smile whose lustre will put to shame the moon) and the other,
kundavrndamakarandabindusandOhasamvalitasundaramandahAsa (beautiful smile which is extracted from a collection of nectar-drops arising from a bevy of flowers).
Note that in both compounds 'mandahAsa'(call it X) is qualified by different adjectives.
Thus you have AX and BX. But in the combination ABX by grammatical rules A qualifies B which in turn qualifies X and that is not the case here since A does not qualify B but qualifies X!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 11 Aug 2007, 11:27

cmlover wrote:The sanskrit of MD is simple but chaste. That of ST is also erudite and chaste. The latter is not by any means superior because of the complex compounds which cannot be resolved meaningfully all the time.

I didn't say that ST's Sanskrit was superior to MD's in terms of their capabilities, nor simply because of his more frequent use of complex compounds. I said that the poetry created by ST is clearly more imaginative and more innovative. It departs frequently from a simple paraphrasing of puranic material (the latter department, of course, is well handled by both composers).

To summarize: both composers have solid and high-quality sahitya. ST was more imaginative and innovative as a poet. MD's intentions and focus were different. This is not a defect. I am contrasting these great composers and their different styles and strengths, not to insult one or the other.

I am yet to come across an ST sahitya that is not meaningful (unless it has been corrupted/garbled over the years because of loss of the 'original' sahitya over the years).

You are going too far trying to equate ST with kALidasa.

Equate ?!! I never said that. I said that ST's poetry is clearly more in the vein of the classical poets like kalidasa. It is a more romantic style that is willing to take flights of fancy - I have illustrated this several times. As a matter of fact, this style is at least partly a result of the unusually strong association of the Kerala elite with classical Sanskrit literature (poetry and drama) over the ages. These facts cannot be wished away.

we have two compounds viz.,
ninditEndukararuCimandahAsa ambujAsyE (you the one with "lotus-face which has a gentle smile whose lustre will put to shame the moon) and the other,
kundavrndamakarandabindusandOhasamvalitasundaramandahAsa (beautiful smile which is extracted from a collection of nectar-drops arising from a bevy of flowers).
Note that in both compounds 'mandahAsa'(call it X) is qualified by different adjectives.
Thus you have AX and BX. But in the combination ABX by grammatical rules A qualifies B which in turn qualifies X and that is not the case here since A does not qualify B but qualifies X!

Your analysis begins well but is incomplete. Let us work this out in detail. The present compound is exactly analyzed as follows (this is one possible vigraha, there may be others). I use brackets to help with this:

[mandahAsaruCi]-[ninditEndukara]-[kundavrndamakarandabindusandOhasamvalita]-[sundarAmbujAsya]

Let us call this A-B-C-D

sundarAmbujAsya = beautiful-lotus-face = D

kundavrndamakarandabindusandOhasamvalita = obtained from milking of nectar-drops from a multitude of flowers = C (I assume the internal analysis of this compound is clear to you, so I have stated it as a result)

ninditEndukara = putting to shame the moon ("moon-shaming") = B

mandahAsaruCi = luster of the gentle smile ("gentle-smile-luster")= A

First, C-D forms a compound: "the beautiful lotus-face obtained by milking of nectar-drops from a multitude of flowers.

Then, B-CD forms a compound: "the moon-shaming beautiful lotus-face obtained by milking of nectar-drops from a multitude of flowers"

Note this makes a lot of sense since the face (not the smile) is compared to the moon...a well-used comparison.

Finally A-BCD forms a possessive bahuvrihi compound: "the person whose moon-shaming beautiful lotus-face obtained by milking of nectar-drops from a multitude of flowers, possesses a gentle-smile-luster".

To complete the construction, the bahuvrihi is given a feminine ending (-AsyA) and then modified to vocative case (sambodhana, -AsyE).

Note, all these are according to standard rules, there is no abstruseness or grammatical exception that needs to be invoked.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Aug 2007, 20:12

SR
Thanks for the clarification of your views though many will not agree! Thyagaraja is a great (greatest?) vaggeyakara but as a Telugu poet he is just ordinary! ST is also a great vaggeyakara but claiming him in the ranks of poets is something else!

We are talking at different frequencies on the grammar issue.
In your B-CD both B and C qualify D. When you want to say so, you should write
B(space) C (space) D. You do not compound since in the compound BC, B will qualify C. The law of RP (Reverse Polish) notation is generally applies to sanskrit compounds. That is why I am claiming, forming megacompounds just to impress is meaningless!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 11 Aug 2007, 20:40

cmlover wrote:SR
Thanks for the clarification of your views though many will not agree! Thyagaraja is a great (greatest?) vaggeyakara but as a Telugu poet he is just ordinary! ST is also a great vaggeyakara but claiming him in the ranks of poets is something else!

Again there is a question of how my views are being paraphrased. I think the difference in literary style between MD and ST is crystal-clear to even casual observers. There seems no doubt whatsoever that ST's style is more romantic, more innovative and original in his descriptions. Like classical poets, he tends to spend more time describing the beauty and qualities of the deity from an imaginative and "secular" point of view (without any reference to puranic or shastraic material). MD was essentially not interested in being too imaginative with his sahitya. If you know Kerala and its cultural history, you will see why these ST characteristics are quite natural.

If you want you can interpret the above as "claiming ST in the ranks of poets" but that does not capture the substance of the issue. My views are presented with substance behind them, the objective being not to force others to agree but to present well-considered aspects of CM that may not have been previously discussed.

We are talking at different frequencies on the grammar issue.
In your B-CD both B and C qualify D. When you want to say so, you should write
B(space) C (space) D.

I understand that, but the point is that CD has already been compounded. Now B only qualifies the combined compound CD. I assure you the vigraha which I presented is reasonable. From previous discussions I recognize there is some difficulty in reaching agreement regarding analysis of compounds which contain combined tatpurusha-bahuvrihi elements. Hence let me state the result for now and ask you to believe it !

That is why I am claiming, forming megacompounds just to impress is meaningless!

There seems to be an impression that I am putting forward the length of the compound as a criterion for its impressiveness, whereas I have been focusing on the content of these compounds to illustrate creative imagination. All along, the examples I presented (e.g. mandahAsa.. and cancada...) were chosen for the fact that ST is willing to take long poetic flights of fancy and come up with highly pleasing similes and allegories, with no dependence at all on puranic or shastraic material. Incidentally such efforts sometimes lead to rather long compounds, a fact of life also found in classical poetry. Again, reducing the issue to an argument on the length of the compounds seems to ignore the substance of my arguments.

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Aug 2007, 20:52

The number of ragas in HM is rather limited, because they use very specific "aesthetic" criteria to judge if a raga is worthwhile/original enough: e.g., what the vadi-samvadi swaras, what are the main clusters of swaras that create a distinctive melodic framework, etc.

SR, can you explain some more on this topic for the HM uninitiated? I have read about vadi-samvadi swaras. I am also aware that their classification of ragas under the various 'Thats' is based more on semantics (aesthetics, rasas) than syntax. But in what sense, the aesthetic and rasa criteria are different between CM and HM?

You also say that they have specific criteria to decide if a raga is original enough. But the sense I get from the various SAWF articles is that HM has many allied ragas which only differ very slightly. The way I understood intuitively is it is by tradition to give a variation on a raga a different name as opposed to calling it another 'chalan' of the same raga. So I came away with a sort of opposite impression to what you are saying. I am sure I am wrong, so please explain some more.

As a sidebar, I read somewhere that the reason why the count of HM ragas in vogue are less is mainly due to HM's tradition of time of day dependent ragas which causes many of the morning to late afternoon ragas to be not used frequently these days.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Aug 2007, 03:34

Good question VK!
Since SR is versatile in both areas he should answer. Let us also hear from other HM/CM enthusiasts!