Ragams you dislike

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shreyas
Posts: 251
Joined: 03 Mar 2018, 13:16

Ragams you dislike

Post by shreyas »

We have had a lot of threads on ragams that we like the most, but curiously none on those we do not. While I always enjoy a good elaboration of any ragam, there are a few that I am not particularly fond of. I will not attempt to give reasons, because preferences as far as ragams go are very subjective and generally abstract.

Kharaharapriya
Kamavardhini/Pantuvarali
Charukesi
Madhyamavathi (to some extent)
Purvikalyani
Behag
Sahana
Suddha Saveri
Abhogi

And I would love to see more 'main'-s in ragas other than the big 6.

ramamatya
Posts: 150
Joined: 16 Dec 2015, 11:04

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by ramamatya »

I too had my list of Ragam likes and dislikes initially. But when I put my dislikes aside and began exploring those Ragams in-depth, I found myself drawn to the dislikes even more. So, now my list falls in the category of likes and loves.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by shankarank »

Sahana - that along with Begada and Bhairavi are quintessentially the core of Carnatic and pinnacle of achievement of Carnatic system!

Ragas like Surutti, Anandabhairavi are present in Bhajan genre as well. But not the above three. Hard to do Bhajans with them. Any rhythmic form, like a composition for example - better have well defined ViSrAnti structure in it to handle these rAgAs! In other words the rAgAs demand BYOM first - Bring your own Music, before you can handle me!

Charukesi, ( Plus Sarasangi , Simhendra Madyamam ) - I would add myself - don't like them.

Most vivadis of plain 72 sampURNa variety - except a few - seem pointless to me.

Kharaharapriya - I declared not a RAga - just to challenge the notion that only rAgAs make for Carnatic music. It can have a King status - I don't mind - without a rAgA status!

CRama
Posts: 2939
Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 16:58

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by CRama »

I dont like the ragas which we are forced to hear in almost all the concerts.
Poorvikalyani and Kalyani.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by RSR »

p-3
@shankarank
"Most vivadis of plain 72 sampURNa variety - except a few - seem pointless to me."
----
You said it!
All the 32 non-vivadi parent scale ragas and their janyams are sweet.. Ofcourse, it also depends on the composer and the vocalist.
The OP is referring to Raagams in general and not raagams sung in concerts.
Let us rather discuss what we like rather than what we dislike in public forum. Simmendra Madhyamam, Shanmugapriya, Natabairavi, KeerwaNi , Poorvi KalyaaNi are all very fine raagams.
As an aside, the Southern Tradition is that Eminent men 'compose'
and leave the singing to women.
As Subramanya Barathi says ' maathar theenkural paattil iruppaaL'
on Goddess Saraswathi ( resides in the music of sweet voice of ladies
The exceptions that you have in mind are VaraaLi and Naattai

Sachi_R
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by Sachi_R »

I don't like Mr. RaGa.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by RSR »

p-3
@shankarank
Bhairavi has the famous swarajathi by Shyama Saastry.
Aanandha Bairavi has both the leisurely classic Maanasa Guruguha of MD as well as one of the three swarajathis of SS.
True.. , they do not lend themselves to Bhajan type. Nor do so many great CM ragas like Todi, MayaMaaLava GowLa, Suba PanthuvaraaLI.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

The one that immediately comes to my mind is the much-lauded Mohanam. I could not bring myself to like it how much ever I try.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by RSR »

p-6
@Sachi_R
I like Mr.RaGa any day better than the pseudo 'Rabindra' sangeet
@ganesh_mourthy Surprised! Maharajapuram senior was famous for this ragam. There are some immortal compositions and renditions - and it is common to both CM and HM and even perhaps Far-Eastern music systems.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

RSR

Yes indeed I agree. There is something missing in me. I think I should start singing and playing this raga in violin more and more. Sometimes, that is the way to bask in a raga.

Sachi_R
Posts: 2174
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by Sachi_R »

Ganesh,
There is a mandatory treatment for those who miss the beauty of Mohanam
They should listen to
1. Narasimha aaagaccha
2. Kapali
3. Jagadishwari
4. Mohana Rama

by different singers.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I started with Bhavanuta somewhere in my early teens ....it did not appeal to me then. It is more of a mental block. I have to drill a hole now to unblock.

Manian
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 Aug 2020, 13:48

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by Manian »

If you recall that eating Bitter melon (பாகற்காய்) no one likes it. But, once it is properly prepared as Pile or North Indian stuffed Karela, it is delicious. That is to say, if you have heard or grown in music environment, then all ragas would be enjoyed. Also, there is no statistics - real as to which artist's which raga groups are mostly enjoyed rather than seeing if some one is moving the head, may be useful for one to decide to hear a concert or not.
People's choice does not decide things, rather the collection in the head of the singer decides the outcome. Vattal Kozhambu is needed once in a while but for those who always want protein from the dishes, may not like it. Also, rare ragas mentioned but sung and recorded are rare.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by SrinathK »

Some ragas can be tougher nuts than others, but pushing ourselves past our limits is what drives growth. If I thought like this, I would have learnt nothing more than what I had when I finished school (which was just a bit more than nothing).

shreyas
Posts: 251
Joined: 03 Mar 2018, 13:16

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by shreyas »

@CRama sir I agree with your point of view; I'm quite bored of hearing Purvikalyani and Kamavardhini in general. Kalyani was never one of my favourites, but at this point I don't really dislike it. I am not particularly fond of Mohana either, but in the hands of artists like MDR, it can have its own appeal. If you have not listened to his Nannu Palimpa already, please use this link: https://youtu.be/ZeVeDBDGpjg

Some artists can take rare ragams and imbue them with an organic feel, whereas others can completely ruin even a time-tested ragam. As many have said before, how you respond to a ragam is all too often dependent on how it is dealt with. Even in the case of Thodi, Sankarabharanam, Kambhoji, Bhairavi, Kharaharapriya and Kalyani, hasn't anyone ever thought that we might be done with them? :D

MaheshS
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by MaheshS »

Two clips for Mohanam
Vijay Siva - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5nFGPjWPuQ
V Subhasri - A scintillating rendition of Bharathiyar's Oozhi Koothu - http://www.tamilvu.org/slet/l9100/l9100 ... 145&pno=61
Bookmarked from her concert - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qtd3H4pvBCs&t=7140s

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by shankarank »

CRama wrote: 11 Aug 2021, 12:43 I dont like the ragas which we are forced to hear in almost all the concerts.
Poorvikalyani and Kalyani.
Now you touched the nerve of ARI Paddhati. That kutcheri kaLai kaTTUfier - it became deva deva kalayAmi (MMG) with SSI. And raghuvaranannu with Chembai - hear all the rakaLai in 1958 concert.


See adukkellAm sangitatulE oru ANmai vENDum. :lol: Oru flair of layam and majesty needs to be there! Then it is not just about the rAgA and it won't feel repetetive. Now the whole culture is getting feminised! - ooh -ooh! Woke, Woke! :lol:

Subrahmanya Bharathi - if he were alive until ARI/PMI/PSP - he would not have complained about lack of vIRa rasam and only finding bhakti rasam. With his death centenary approaching - food for thought!

Southern music is compositional music because the versification was pushed down South due to the invasions! And it merged with the versification already present in Southern languages!

MaheshS
Posts: 1186
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by MaheshS »

Sorry to spam, but I love Mohanam, and here are my two favorite clips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjvR9UMQCrg - Power of Pentatonic Scale - Demonstration by Bobby McFerrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g58t61ElipA - MDR's Mohanam opening by his student[?] / fan[?]

Manian
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 Aug 2020, 13:48

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by Manian »

Mahesh: Perceiving the hidden abstraction through his scale dancing is the same kind of thinking in science, mathematics, arts and music. If you look at a ladder on a wall ready to be used, a mathematician will see immediately a right angled triangle, where the steps on the ladder looks like the smooth hypotenuse. A physicist will look at the hypotenuse as as the force required to climb. A Trigonometry scholar will see, that you need two forces - directional angle (theta) between the ladder and the wall and the length of the hypotenuse. Thus, a music genius as Madurai Mani Iyer can start an aalapana with a, i, e,ai, au and u znd the whole spectrum of vowels as note holders without the normal SA,EI,.. note holders. with the same note and frequency as another routine musician. But for an ordinary person, can only see a ladder or the notes he or she expects. This also like our Mantras, where the mind binding swaras is hidden behind the lyrics of the mantra. Thus, Madurai Mani Iyer and Power of Pentatonic Scale - Demonstration by Bobby McFerrin are unique and we are lucky to witness them and appreciate that music is not just singing or showing acrobatic skills, rather exposing the hidden Gems behind the lyrics. Thus, Dhishtar saw this in Venaaa recital and wrote the lyrics but many who say they hate this are those who eat without enjoying the subtle tastes in their tongue and nostrils. That is the sad part. I learned this when I learned Veena.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by shankarank »

Manian wrote: 19 Aug 2021, 05:46 A physicist will look at the hypotenuse as as the force required to climb.
Unfortunately for the mathematician, without this pramaNa he could not have constructed his math, because the idea of the slope is provided by gravity only and direction is also defined by it. A blind person has to cognize the concept of a slope by actually sliding down or feeling a sliding object. It is a basic pramaNa! Lot of Math books live by giving physics problems - for all this pure Math claim. Math is only a transcension, the advaita of physics - where the latter is more grounded :lol:

Ok as regards Pentatonic, it is a sleight of hand that is played with not just intra-terta-chord samvadis , but mutual consonance of neighbouring notes also. We have been biased with arohanam/avarohanam and don't notice that there is the other note sequence given by the cycle of fifths.

kApi - rAgam - the hindustani version is straight sequence from sAdharaNa gandhara, which includes the two of it's bhashanga svaras as well - so it more than just 7 - 9 notes from the cycle: g2-n2-m1-sa-pa-r2-d2-g3-n3.

sindhu bhairavi another janaranjaka rAgam - the gamakamless todi : r1-d1-g2-n2-m1-sa-pa -> on to all 12 - wiki says ;) . Damn! rasikas thread on this rAga still does not explain it's Sukshman :lol: . One has to go read all of Parikkar who is all over the place with this :x :lol: Who knows this may be the one with all 22 - nah not our Bhairavi :lol:

All part of san-kara-todi-kal-hari-nata cycle.

Now we have our Hindolam falling into Malkauns - proving the theory that pentatonic is even more in the danger of falling into vAdi/samvAdi minima!

To give comfort to our friend @ganesh_mourthy , a Mohanam in any concert within the musical circles I have moved in the U.S, is considered an insult to the intelligence of the connoisseur rasika! We are not in MMI era obviously to give current musicians a free pass. Lots of conjectures will be made. Especially in a tri-city area where other city residents drive an hour and a half one way:

The musician doesn't want to work hard - wants to take it easy! - OB adiccufying.

Or the host of the musician on that day has spoiled the expectation on the part of the musician. Curse the host.

Or it must be a bad day for the musician or a third day in a row - a Sunday concert!

So @ganesh_mourthy you are in an elite group man! :D

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by shankarank »

In samskRtam antonym for rAgAm is dvEsham - I suppose that meaning of rAgam may have connections to this musical sense of rAgam as well.

http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2008/07/d ... -raga.html
rAga dvEshAdi rahita -
ramaNIya hRdaya viditaM

the one who can only be understood in the heart that is beautiful due to the absence of passion and hatred,

Manian
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 Aug 2020, 13:48

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by Manian »

shankarank : First a mathematician makes a hypothesis or conjecture and then finds the proof. He is using inductive reasoning – observations and then comes to a theory. If he has Pramana(proof) then he is doing deductive reasoning. So, here is a conjecture of mine – The number of ideas or concepts are finite but very large, but the relationship formed by them in infinite”. Here is a proof: if you can find an example or analogy form any domain(field of knowledge) then the concept is not new, otherwise it is new. Now, I still want a mathematician to produce necessary proof. So, the observation is not Pramana. This is not to dispute with you or prove I am right. Maths is the science behind the observation and has to be discovered if you want any numerical solution. It is the other side of the coin of any phenomenon. Not every one can be versatile both in a natural language as wells in mathematical language. You can see this when mathematicians are not able to explain the concepts in a simple language. The observation is the first step. Like Madurai Mani Iyer has said (Sanjay's one of the episode on Madurai Mani Iyer), his garlanding of niraval is first some part of Tiger and another part from somewhere else and only he knew where he got them. This does not suggest to give a free pass to any one. MM had the insight and that is all.
So, what US audience says does not change any thing as the masses to hear these concerts are in Chennai and they are happy, even if it is not high quality, which is sad. But what is the option? If the older generation pass away, will there a huge audience for Carnatic Music? Only time alone can tell as we do not have any statistics.

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Ragams you dislike

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Thanks @shankarank ...hurt ego restored. :lol:

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