Violin with vocal accompaniment

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RaghuPS
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Joined: 27 Aug 2020, 19:21

Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by RaghuPS »

In many Balamurakrishna recordings that I listen to, I hear him humming along with the violinist especially during raga returns. I find it very captivating . Have there been any occasions of a vocalist accompanying a violinist ? Will any present day vocalist/violinist combo game for such an experiment ?

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by msakella »

It is not that easy to any vocalist to hum back the violinist while following in Ragalapana. In fact, always unless each and every Violinist is more knowledgeable than the vocalist he/she cannot successfully accompany any vocalist. But, this is quite reverse in respect of Vocalist as any vocalist never needs to hum back the violinist. As the Great BMK was a great exponent not only in Vocal but also in Violin, Mridangam, Khanjira etc., etc. he has been able to do anything which no other musician cannot do.

Once I have accompanied him on Violin in his Viola concert in 1962 (the exact date also I can give you if I refer my diary) at Vijayawada when I was working as Lecturer in Violin in the college where he was the Principal. The concert was almost like a competition between us both as I was very successfully playing MSG’s techniques in those days and a great success giving me very nice fame. He even accompanied great stalwarts of our times on Violin. Many things which he did in music cannot be done by many. amsharma/msakella

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by thenpaanan »

RaghuPS wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 23:37 In many Balamurakrishna recordings that I listen to, I hear him humming along with the violinist especially during raga returns. I find it very captivating . Have there been any occasions of a vocalist accompanying a violinist ? Will any present day vocalist/violinist combo game for such an experiment ?
Not quite what you are asking for but back in the early 2000s when KS Gopalakrishnan toured the US with M Chandrashekar there was a fabulous concert in New Jersey (if memory serves rAma kathA in Madhyamavati was main). Anyway, at one point when Chandrashekar was playing his solo alapana, KSG started following him on the flute when MC stopped him. He said "follow paNNa vENDAm' (please do not follow). I have always wondered why and if violinists in genera would like to be followed thus.

Once in a rare while one can hear Flute Mali doing the same with his violin accompanist (presumably T Rukmini), but those are audio recordings only and it is hard to tell what the violinist thought of it.

But it is a very valid question. Why can't the vocalist shadow the violinist as a returned favor? I have myself never heard vocalists do this and is there a particular reason not to? Could it be that voice would be too dominant or distracting? The typical voice and violin in a Carnatic concert live mostly in entirely different octaves. Would the vocalist have to sing ultra-lightly/quietly just as the violinist plays quieter in accompaniment than in a solo?

-T

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by sureshvv »

TMK has done this on occasion.

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by thenpaanan »

msakella wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 05:35 Once I have accompanied him on Violin in his Viola concert in 1962 (the exact date also I can give you if I refer my diary) at Vijayawada when I was working as Lecturer in Violin in the college where he was the Principal. The concert was almost like a competition between us both as I was very successfully playing MSG’s techniques in those days and a great success giving me very nice fame.
Sarma garu, could you elaborate on MSG's techniques? I am not a violinist but any music enthusiast would be eager to learn the mysteries of MSG's playing.
msakella wrote: He even accompanied great stalwarts of our times on Violin. Many things which he did in music cannot be done by many. amsharma/msakella
There is a famous youtube video of BMK accompanying SSI on the viola. marivere in Anandabhairavi was one of the items. BMK follows the delicate singing of SSI in this piece very nicely and the two exchange smiles as it progresses. Very pleasing overall.

I wonder why viola did not catch on as an accompaniment in Carnatic music.

-T

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by msakella »

Dear thenpaanan garu,
Even though I was a Mridangist from my age of 3 and also vocalist from my age of 8 I have started Violin from my 17 year of age in 1955 that too from my father. Even then I happened to listen to MSG sir by radio only and became his successful follower and devotee (At last I was able to play just less than 5% of him only).

In fact, he did not teach me anything but I have guessed the various exercises and formulated a seriatim of them for my regular practice. Even those exercises I had to modify by the regular listening of his radio concerts (no videos). However, I was able to play some Varnas on single strings and some Ragas and compositions in his technique which enabled me only once to accompany him in his concert at Hyderabad in 1974. Then only I realised that I cannot play even Shadja on the 3rd string with my finger like him even in this birth. That kind of un-paralleled perfection he got. He only can play anything on violin which any other violinist did but no other violinist can do in which way he did!!!

I shall give some examples what I very regularly practised and also insist upon my students also to follow. To very regularly play:
01.Both Swara-bow and Sahitya-bow (continuous-bow) of 01.srgmpdns-rsndpmgr 02.srgmpdnsrgmp-dpmgrsndpmgr 03.srgmpdnsrgmpdnsr-grsndpmgrsndpmgr @ 100 bpm or above up to 120 bpm (metronome beats per minute).
02.Varnas on Shadja string in Kalyani with mainly middle-finger or in Todi mainly with ring-finger along with Swara-bow, sahitya-bow and taanam-bow.
03.Varnas in Saveri, Kalyani, Kaanada, Navaragamalika (Adi) and Kalyani Ata Varna on the 4th string starting – Mandra-Shadja - from Shuddha-madhyama as Shadja.

And there are many more different exercises for both right and left hands which I cannot write here but can only demonstrate (with many off-notes at this old age as I have left my regular practice in 2001 along with all my concerts).

Great BMK can follow even many more delicate singers very efficiently.

Viola is of bigger in size than violin which has longer gaps than violin making it difficult to manage. Better not to handle both at a time like two wives!!! amsharma/msakella

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by thenpaanan »

Dear Sarma garu

I have a close friend who is an MSG student as well and he once played the kalyANI aTa tAla varNa on one string to demonstrate the technique to me. He cannot stop talking about MSG's techniques once he gets started. I also have family members who have known him personally (having been sabhA secretaries outside Chennai) and they too are die-hard fans and not just of his musical prowess but also of his very down-to-earth personality.

For a layperson like me can you explain what is special about MSG's playing? What makes him stand apart from his contemporaries (or even non-contemporaneous violinists)? From watching some of his students perform I can tell that their understanding and technical mastery of the instrument is quite phenomenal but that is different from the musical approach. As a violinist, how do you see MSG's musicianship? What does he do different or better than other violinists?

Many thanks
T

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by msakella »

Dear thenpaanan garu,

In one of my posts in this forum, very recently I have defined the percentage of sensitivity as 40% (general-pass) average-sensitivity, 60% good sensitivity, 80% better sensitivity, 100% best sensitivity and above that Super sensitivity while comparing my violin-level of Top-rank in 2001 as good sensitivity only with Great MSG’s Top-rank of Super sensitivity. As the AIR authorities, fortunately or un-fortunately, did not make any such difference in Top-grade we all are saved to stand on par with him though unfit. This makes him all the difference with all the other Violinists on the GLOBE (I was also very close to him meeting with him since 1960).

Very regular and heavy practices of the instrument and different finger techniques entirely differ with this Super sensitivity and in musical-sense what he alone did is not that easy to define with words!!!

Many may be able to play Kalyani Ata-varna on a single string but occasionally the lower notes on another string. But his is entirely different. On the 4th Mandra-shadja-string one should make the Shuddha-madhyama as Madhya-Shadja and play the entire varna, very strictly, on a single string only that too entire varna in two degrees of speed in 120 bpm speed (with Swara-bow, Sahitya-bow & Taanam-bow too)and I did in this manner along with other 4 or 5 Varnas also in the same manner.

Once he told me that he was very regularly practicing for 8 hours daily, but with knowledgeable practice. This knowledgeable practice altogether keeps him not only apart from all other violinists but all other musicians also. It is not that easy to me at this old age with my very limited knowledge in this foreign language to define him bringing all the anecdotes with him as this is such an entirely different subject which is only demonstratable but not speakable at all!!! amsharma/msakella

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by thenpaanan »

msakella wrote: 28 Dec 2021, 05:40 Dear thenpaanan garu,

In one of my posts in this forum, very recently I have defined the percentage of sensitivity as 40% (general-pass) average-sensitivity, 60% good sensitivity, 80% better sensitivity, 100% best sensitivity and above that Super sensitivity while comparing my violin-level of Top-rank in 2001 as good sensitivity only with Great MSG’s Top-rank of Super sensitivity. As the AIR authorities, fortunately or un-fortunately, did not make any such difference in Top-grade we all are saved to stand on par with him though unfit. This makes him all the difference with all the other Violinists on the GLOBE (I was also very close to him meeting with him since 1960).
Sarma garu,

I am twenty years younger than you and far behind in musical knowledge, so please address me as a junior musician, not a peer.

The challenge with appreciating your comments above is that without a practical demonstration it is hard to understand the implications of hyper-sensitivity to pitch. I recently attended a solo violin concert by an MSG student and I am afraid to say it was unbearably off-shruti. Of course it says nothing about the great MSG himself. That aside, the job of an accompanist is to follow the vocalist whatever he/she sings, including if the vocalist goes off-shruthi. It is considered improper for an accompanist to expose the vocalist on stage, and given the implicit hierarchy in our musical platform, the benefit of doubt is always given to the vocalist, whether they deserve it or not. Which means that, at least as far as accompaniment goes, the violinist is limited by the shruthi-sensitivity of the vocalist. In other words we can only judge the caliber of a violinist in this regard by their solo concerts (or alternately when accompanying the rare vocalists who are themselves hyper-sensitive to shruti).
msakella wrote: 28 Dec 2021, 05:40 Very regular and heavy practices of the instrument and different finger techniques entirely differ with this Super sensitivity and in musical-sense what he alone did is not that easy to define with words!!!
I accept that it is not easy to describe music or musicianship in words, much like it is impossible to describe a painting or even a piece of literature in other words. I have read that when R K Narayan was being given an award for one of his novels (cannot remember which) he was asked at the award function to say a few words summarizing the novel. He stood up and said "you have to read the novel, I cannot describe it in fewer words" and sat down. If a litterateur can say such a thing about his own work, it is indeed valid to say the same about another art form. Nevertheless we make these feeble attempts to capture it in words.
msakella wrote: 28 Dec 2021, 05:40 Once he told me that he was very regularly practicing for 8 hours daily, but with knowledgeable practice. This knowledgeable practice altogether keeps him not only apart from all other violinists but all other musicians also.
The key is "knowledgeable" practice. This is what I would like to tell all my students. They have been hearing from their other teachers that they should practice certain number of hours every day, practice early in the morning, drink honey-with-water, etc etc. But the problem is if they practice the wrong thing or in the wrong way, that practice is worse than no practice at all! I have myself had to unlearn certain things before I could improve myself.

Of course the key question is what exactly is this "knowledgeable practice", and unfortunately there is no easy answer for that, at least when it comes to voice. We can draw certain lines such as avoid shouting, avoid repetitively singing pieces that hurt the voice, don't perform with a cold voice, etc, but these are a far cry from actual constructive advice on what it means to practice correctly. Most of the traditional vocal advice that our students get is like used clothes handed-down from older family members: ill-fitting, anachronistic, and non-negotiable, without much respect for the new owner. "If it is good enough for your elders, it is good enough for you."
msakella wrote: 28 Dec 2021, 05:40
It is not that easy to me at this old age with my very limited knowledge in this foreign language to define him bringing all the anecdotes with him as this is such an entirely different subject which is only demonstratable but not speakable at all!!! amsharma/msakella
I sincerely appreciate your taking time to educate us, but pardon us also for being so aggressive. We are 'vidyA arthI", we are greedy for knowledge! :-)

-T

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by msakella »

Yes, Chi. Thenpaanan dear, Heartfelt blessings to you.

The same happened to me also nearly 15 years back when one of my friends in Chennai took me to his friend’s house to show me his two sons who were learning violin direct from MSG sir and to get my blessings. After listening to them I was compelled to bless them but, in fact, I felt very sad and told my friend open that they will certainly discontinue within only one year and this became true and they did so.

In the same manner, in 1964, in respect of one of my friends who was learning direct from LGJ also happened and these two incidents proved that they were only Super-sensitive-accompanists and performers but not teachers at all.

But, even though I was a very regular full-time-violin-teacher (daily for 5 hrs.) in the Govt. Music Institutions of Andhra Pradesh from 1961, having successfully followed many of that time famous violin-teachers felt happy to become one of the best teachers of our State at the time of my retirement. But, ultimately only by Gods’ grace, accidentally in 2001 I could open my eyes only to find myself the best of the bad lot. And from then onwards only my real life as a logical music-teacher started.

As you rightly wrote violin-accompanist’s job is just like our tongue, which occasionally comes out but always remains inside the mouth only.

As per my experience the ‘knowledgeable-practice’ just doubles the duration of practice.

Our music-teaching methods are mostly illogical elongating the process for many years criminally wasting the time, energy and money of the student. Only by God’s grace I have been blessed with a fully-logical way out in which, with my very limited initiation of less than 5%, I could initiate him/her for more than 95% with the help of some suitable aids which differ from person to person to make him/her sing hardly within only one year or play violin within two years both mathematical and creative Swarakalpana in all the six popular talas even before learning the first Kriti. But this is only for efficient kids below 10 yrs. of age who have to face some very rigid tests and have to very regularly practice for 4 hrs. daily irrespective of any holidays. There are several logical exercises for all the students for their regular practice. This is the ‘time-bound and result-oriented logical system of learning’ (not teaching or cheating!) for the first time in the history. Since last more than 15 years I have been able to do this (only one student – one time) very efficiently and successfully. If I can’t do this I shall pay back the fees what I have taken from the student.

This was the system of initiation in music followed by Shonthi Venkataramanayya, the Guru of Great Thyagaraja, who taught him music for only one year (I have also been able to do like this since last more than 15 years).

To tell the fact, nowadays, at this old age, I prefer more to speak by phone than writing these lengthy posts. amsharma/msakella

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by shankarank »

Interested people can listen to Vid. M. Narmadha give a Lecdem - available for one more day at Kalakendra - Musically Margazhi,

May be they can make Lec-Dems alone available until end of Jan 31.

She talks about various techniques and practices in the second half, like single String, long bow, combining Hindustani styles, tarAna ( tAr sE AnA tarAna - Ghar sE AnA - GharAna - essentially gurukula vAsam enDru koLLalAm - learnt something there :D ) ).

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by thenpaanan »

msakella wrote: 28 Dec 2021, 05:40
Many may be able to play Kalyani Ata-varna on a single string but occasionally the lower notes on another string. But his is entirely different. On the 4th Mandra-shadja-string one should make the Shuddha-madhyama as Madhya-Shadja and play the entire varna, very strictly, on a single string only that too entire varna in two degrees of speed in 120 bpm speed (with Swara-bow, Sahitya-bow & Taanam-bow too)and I did in this manner along with other 4 or 5 Varnas also in the same manner.
One more question related to this. The one-string playing is magnificent as a practice technique but as a performance piece not so much. I feel that musicality is a casualty in some of these exercises, which is fine as long as their purpose is to serve only as a practice exercise. I recently chanced upon a MSG student playing the nArAyaNagauLai aTa tAla varNam maguva ninne using this one-string technique. The raga is a delicate one and I felt that the extensive slides that are part of the one-string playing did no service to the sense of the raga. So is it necessary or appropriate to play it that way in a concert?

-T

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Violin with vocal accompaniment

Post by msakella »

All exercises are meant only to instill enough confidence into the aspirant to exhibit the same very efficiently at any time and place. After getting enough confidence to exhibit the required item very efficiently at any time and place you can also do so or, very simply, keep quiet! That’s all. We all have been doing the same always in each and every aspect. Isn’t it??? amsharma/msakella

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