Pt Ajoy Chakraborty's views on carnatic music

[rajeshv109]

In hindi from a recent interview. Any thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIynQPcTF1E

[K Nagarajan]

What Pt Ajoy Chakraborty is saying quoting Sri CNR Rao as missing in Carnatic music because of which Dr Rao stopped listening even to likes of Semmangudi and MS? I am not getting it clearly in the youtube video.

[girish_a]

What Pt Ajoy Chakraborty is saying quoting Sri CNR Rao as missing in Carnatic music because of which Dr Rao stopped listening even to likes of Semmangudi and MS? I am not getting it clearly in the youtube video.

My Hindi is not very good, but from the word "thehrao", I believe he refers to staying, or dwelling, on the same phrase, or note for a sustained length of time to bring out its melodic aspects in great detail.

At 2:10 into the video, he gives an example in Malkauns. He compares it with Carnatic and mentions that the unhurried pace of Hindustani isn't to be found in Carnatic music, and also mentions that in order for that to happen, the laya has to go into the background (he says "lay ke neeche" - I couldn't fully understand what he was referring to. Literally it means, "below the laya", which doesn't make sense, so I think he means that laya should make way for melody by sliding into the background).

He goes on to say that the concept of Vilambit (slow, unhurried pace) never became a feature of Carnatic music, and therefore the aforementioned "thehrao" cannot be found in this system. When he says Vilambit, he is of course comparing it with the Hindustani benchmark, not our Vilamba Kala kritis.

Then of course, he narrates the conversation he had with Sri. CNR Rao, who apparently told him that he has stopped listening to Carnatic music because the entire composition is concluded in 15 minutes (something not to the liking of Sri Rao). He narrates further that Sri CNR Rao also told him that he used to listen to MSS and SSI in the earlier days, but he doesn't listen to present day artists.

Pt. Chakraborty also reveals that the children of a lot of Carnatic artists have started to learn Hindustani from him, and he speculates that the reason for this could be that senior Carnatic musicians are recognizing the need for "thehrao".

My own take on Panditji's observation is that it is not without a grain of truth, and that it should be taken as constructive criticism by the Carnatic music community. However, the reason Carnatic music hasn't evolved like Hindustani music is perhaps because it is devotional, bhakti-oriented music. In Carnatic compositions, the object is the divine, usually a deity, and therefore the compositions dwell on extolling Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Devi and so on. The intent is to bring out bhakti through a combination of sahitya and raga, so perphaps "thehrao" doesn't lend itself very well to devotional expression?

[nAdopAsaka]

Hindustani musicians have been singing this tune, of rescuing “disillusioned” Carnatic rasikas, for many decades.

But the suggestion that “what doesn’t work for Mr. Rao- the rasika” can be casually generalized into a referendum on the systems of music deserves refuting.

Maybe the children mentioned in the post below were found unsuitable in their efforts to take up the Carnatic family “profession”.

I believe the statements being made originate in the insecurity of the performing artist, which the speaker clearly is.

“Professional” musicians such as the speaker have to try to ensure they always have an audience and students, in the face of many modern “entertainment” options available.

I think this idea of “thehrAo” or “dwelling” is much over-rated either as a recruitment tool or as some lofty icon of the art form.

It is another unfortunate consequence of gaudy performance art practised by professional musicians, particularly Hindustani and is kutCheri/audience driven. I think Ravi Shankar the sitarist , basking in the after-glow of the Beatles, was an early culprit.

The vAggeyakAra-defined-kriti-based music (which Mr. Rao or anyone of his ilk does not appear to understand) has a completely different intent from any of this performance art.

It is immune to the coming and going of casual rasikas or even so-called vidwAns.

If a kriti lasts only 15 mins, so what ?...there are hundreds more kritis.. And unpacking the content of any kriti is also part of the “listening” exercise and the rasika responsibility.

Perhaps the language/s is a barrier, to Mr Rao, his children (or the speakers children).

So be it.

The music I know does not rely on Mr. Rao or any supposedly disenchanted children to either evolve or devolve.

It never has and it never will.

[shankarank]

At 2:10 into the video, he gives an example in Malkauns. He compares it with Carnatic and mentions that the unhurried pace of Hindustani isn't to be found in Carnatic music, and also mentions that in order for that to happen, the laya has to go into the background (he says "lay ke neeche" - I couldn't fully understand what he was referring to. Literally it means, "below the laya", which doesn't make sense, so I think he means that laya should make way for melody by sliding into the background).

Indeed, the treatment of even the most famous boy meets girl song - the ultra popular sAmaja vara gamana leaves much to be desired. All kriti renditions are planned to be an apology for a true rendition. They have to get to some neraval or svaras, you see.

It is another matter that sometimes, MMI puts you into a trance with even with an apology for a rendition with his sheer polish.

But that aside, I parodied the sAmaja vara gamana rendered in rAga labs with some pointers to improve it. https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34178

If you give that to a tri-state north-south blender of a musician in Belgaum or something, he/she would run circles around their audience with that approach. Carnatic musicians with all their intricacies, grammar, magnificent kritis from the trinity, a Pallavi tradition also to boot, are not able to address this.

The syllables will have to float. It is not laya that goes into background, rather the tALa that does. The musician will need to have extreme awareness of laya viz-a-viz the compositional structure. Most professional musicians do and apply it in many instances! But they don't seem to want to take freedoms with a composition even if the modification is based on a sound principle and even when the existing one sounds pedestrian.

A well positioned composition also has room for a tad slower treatment without loss of weight or verve, thus giving room for better melody.

It seems in Carnatic music, the Kalpita / Kalpana classification seems to have impacted the treatment of compositions and yet there is no standard even in the Kalpita. But for each musician their version is a Kalpita that cannot be messed with!

[nAdopAsaka]

15 minutes of hindOla

The example given of “sAmaja vara gamana” is interesting.

There is an element of gait built into the very words of the kriti ‘sAmaja vara gama-na”.

The tyAgarAja picks the swaying of a swing (the rAga name = hindOla) to illustrate the swaying of the haunches of the elephant (sAmaja) , as the measured tread of the deity who transcends time (kAlAtita).

And he indicates that it is only this understanding of gait that can illuminate the interplay of the seven notes (sapta swara nAdACala dipa).

On a less serious note, this is about a hundred years before Einstein confirms that gravity is a manifestation of the space-time fabric.

Not coincidentally, the Dikshitar realizes his “Siva-Sakti” union upon a similar celestial swing, the “Siva Sakti maya navAvaranE” of his 9th Cakra hindOla kriti in the kAmAKSi navAvarana, i.e. “nirajAkSi kAmAkSi”.

In my world, these lilies need no gilding.

[shankarank]

I suppose I have to record with my humble amateurs' voice to illustrate.

https://soundcloud.com/shank-krishna/sa ... al_sharing

Pardon any melodic mistake or deviation from known pAThAntarams or Sruti. This is strictly to illustrate proposed syllable positioning.

To be exact , the taTTU samam beat has to fall between vi and ca of vicakshana. Meaning wise also, elongating vi a tad bit, without making it diRgha sounding enhances it I suppose , as vi here is grand! Current renditions waste precious musical space in holding the samyuktAkshara in k-sh for about 2 mAtras. svara (vowel) - less consonants have to be compressed in music when possibility allows - this from a tamizh isai expert, sorry isai tamizh expert - language is music first! . The whole term tamizh isai is grotesquely wrong!

Also the pAlaya, I inadvertantly fell upon a yati that makes it similar to sAmani on the return. Adds to rhythmic beauty.

Now for this, a toppi filled mRdangam support , how will it fail to make it a grand elephantine gait (sAmaja vara gamana)? The floating syllables give room for taking it anAgata if breath or musical elongation delays the previous line.

It is true that a pAThantaram has to exist for teaching children and this cannot be taught straight. And in pAthams they have to align with the tALa kriyas more. I leave it up to musicians to reverse-engineer a pAthAntaram to achieve this ultimate goal.

The difference between siksha and sAdhana needs to be made clear.

Here is one, more than 15 minutes . Only TNS, I have heard, split it like sAma - nigamaja sudha. In a penatonic rAga very hard, then panjama varjya rAga doubly hard , to be able to hold and resume like that is truly a feat:

https://youtu.be/PkP95xmcXdA?t=147 - timeline for sAma - nigamaja split.

From the kriti , all through the svara prastara TNS and UKS are one truly meeting minds who play each other with abandon!

ArhOhaNam even if it comes, avarOhaNam is doubly difficult and to do brighas in avarOhaNa sangati only the greats can attempt.

[RSR]

Girish . Excellent summay. Keep it up.
Though tnere are about 100 kruthis of
Thyagaraja , which exemplify slow paced bhaavam filled rendering, without aalaap,swarams etc, just the plain kruthi,.it is not the vilambit of HM.
Each has its own merit and purpose..
Some great CM vocalists like MSS
and DKP can render plain kruthis in very slow pace enchantingly, the ,kruthis are self sufficient.Such rendition is not possible without firm devotional mindest. Try naama kusuma.
The last sentence is not correct.
.
Quote from satish


My own take on Panditji's observation is that it is not without a grain of truth, and that it should be taken as constructive criticism by the Carnatic music community. However, the reason Carnatic music hasn't evolved like Hindustani music is perhaps because it is devotional, bhakti-oriented music. In Carnatic compositions, the object is the divine, usually a deity, and therefore the compositions dwell on extolling Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Devi and so on. The intent is to bring out bhakti through a combination of sahitya and raga, so perphaps "thehrao" doesn't lend itself very well to devotional expression?

[shankarank]

The intent of Carnatic music is continuing a tradition of grammar, rAga lakshanam, performance, craftiness, sangatis, Vidvat, vocation and getting an audience interested in a 2- 3 hour concert. If bhakti happens incidentally that is between the sound created and the particular listener.

If at all the Brinda-Mukta duo and some of their school stand apart in expressing some sublimity , subtlety - which some people also want to call it an "art music" not a crafted one.

How many people can understand the sAhitya? I talked about a technique in sAmaja vara gamana, I know some words , but don't understand it fully, have to refer to a translation, if I feel like it. What I know , it is a pretty popular song! And enjoy a rendition of it. That's it.

As I always say, language is music! I am trying to point out where even the craft is not fully exploited.

I don't have any use even for my mother tongue language song , if it does not conform to required rhythmic structure , even if theme and meaning are great!

[nAdopAsaka]

The careful breakdown of Shankarank is appreciated. It compels a response.

As he says Most certainly “bhakti happened” , over millenia, with the Trinity being the foremost example.

A continuum of sound-consumption alternatives for the subcontinent can be drawn up..

[thehrAo (dhrupad)] – [fillum/film music] – [semi or non thehrAo/Carnatic] – [classical dance music/mantra chanting/bhajan]-[vAggeyakAra/nAda-upAsana/kriti]

The left-to-right sequence shown is unimportant. Perhaps there are other groups, but for the purposes of what I want to say the 5 shown suffice.

An honest venn diagram may reveal some overlap of listeners and also perhaps some “hypocrisy” in overlapping choices…but there are likely also single-minded supporters of each group.

I repeat my objection to the views expressed by the speaker in the initial post.

I regard the views as a calculated yet ignorant slight on the vAggeyakAra/kriti tradition and the nAda-sampradAya.

The thehrAo camp has been under threat for decades from the seductiveness of fillum music.

With any eye to recruiting audiences/students, it “bad-mouths” the “vAggeyakAra/kriti music” as inadequate .

And it “bad-mouths” the “non-thehrAo music” as so unattractive that even family DNA cannot compete….(since most non-thehrAo practitioners come from “families of musicians”, the so-called “ sangitagya parivAra”)

The threat is so severe that the “recruitment” tool carefully and cynically invokes “Senior musicians” and a “Senior Scientist = Mr. Rao”.

If the speaker had merely quoted Mr Lallu-panju, the recruitment would be less effective, I suppose.

But as I see it , as individuals, Mr Lallu-panju is equal in weight to Mr. Rao or Mr. Lallu or Mr Panju.

The vAggeyakAras of the nAda-upAsana are also individuals. Their music is of the individual, by the individual and for the individual.

Their terse kritis that are revered by the nAda-upAsakas are also viewed with extreme disfavor by the non-thehrAO.

Like the thehrAo, the non-thehrAo also see the vAggeyekAra/kriti as an existential threat. (This is why the thehrAo speaker begins his sales-pitch with the 15 minute attention span of Mr. Rao, only later does he get around to the students)

The reliance on Words instead of sounds is considered distant and inscrutable.

The “wonderful” amalgam of Word, idea, laya, Sruti, melody, history, kSEtra that forms their kritis is discarded by sects that consider the iconography repulsive for whatever reason or general lethargy to understand the constructs.

The resulting ignorance further emboldens the thehrAo recruitment scheme.

Seeking an understanding of why particular rAgas are used or what motivates the structure of a kriti, congealed from the kSEtra history and the worship of the vAggeyakAra is considered unimportant. The tyAgarAjas imagery and idiom goes abegging.

The pujA structure particularly the Sri-vidyA upAsana is denied or diluted. Various “holier-than-thou pious positions” are adopted by these sects to denigrate the individuals worship, especially that of the Sri-vidyA upAsakas.

For example, there is Zero understanding of the navAvarana stage-gate approach (amplified only by the Dikshitar and not even by his own family/SSP ! ) and its deeper significance/goals.

The use of rAga as a tool in worship is considered antithetical to those who instead worship rAga through this semi-thehrAo or thehrAo dwelling on melodic scales, focused on air-pressure disturbance.

In conclusion I say, neither the vAggeyakAras (or the nAda-upAsakas – whatever few there are) care about recruiting any listeners, or any kutCheris or any other sectarian narrow-mindedness.

If you are repulsed by ANY kritis for whetever reasons, stop listening to ALL of these vAggeyakAras kritis.

If any of the other groups need to modify their methods or practices to survive or flourish, I wish them all the best.

But the intent of the individuals who are the vAggeyakAras and nAda-upAsakas is only and always worship through the inseparability of Word, its Meaning and its Melody crystallized in their terse kritis.

[RSR]

Though Shyaama Saastry was a devi upaasakaa, he was not a follower of srividya ta tric practices.
..Thyagaraja very much less so. In one of the kruthis he decries any
. thanthric way.
Both depended on prayer and worship only.

[nAdopAsaka]

It can be also be argued that the huge diversity of rAgas in the Carnatic system (compared to the Hindustani system) is itself the product of a deeper contemplation and “dwelling” on the scales.

Perhaps someone should clue the speaker in the YouTube clip of the first post to this, before he makes his next foolish pronouncement.

But the contemplation is not motivated by some narcissistic performance art camouflaged as this “thehrAo”.

I also refuse to use the dESya word “thehrAo” for this sacred pujA…the proper word has always been “upAsana”.

This contemplation derives from worshipping the deities in multiple ways…it is an emblem of nAda-upAsana.

Incidentally, “tOdi” sitArAmayya is supposed to have sung the rAga tOdi for 8 days…but the kritis of the vAggeyakAras have reduced him to obscurity.

Speaking of tOdi, tOdi is the so-called analog of the so-called hindustAni “bhairavi”…

the rAga word name tOdi can be derived from the word “tOdaha” implying the enlightenment from the goading of the sun racing across the day-sky, …the natural connection to the name “hanumat-tOdi” becomes apparent, since AnjanEya reaches for this same sun).

Words are important in the yOga of the “Sabda-brahman”.

The “50-60” tOdi kritis of the supreme nAdayOgis cover everything under the sun, regardless of whether Mr. Rao’s 15 minutes are up or not.

Not surprisingly, the tyAgarAja uses this “enlightened tOdi” rAga to worship the dEvi at panCanada kSEtra.

In the tOdi rAga kriti “karuna judavamma” to the dharmasavardhani he calls her “SambarAri vairiki ardha Sariri” = ardhanAri.

He also calls her explicitly “parASakti” in the SAME kriti.

The tyAgarAja also adores the mother goddess of tiruvOtriyur AND Sritapastirtha/lAlgudi AND nilAyatAkSi of nAgapattinam AND kAnCi..

And SyAmA SAStri calls the kAnCi dEvi as “sOmaSEkhara pAdi”, the ardhanAri of that kSEtra.

It doesn’t matter whether the tyAgarAja or SyAmA SAStri (or the tEvAram poets) are tAntrics or not.

In their kritis (which express the tyAgarAjas and SyAmA SAStris deepest worship) they have unambiguously acknowledged the “ardhanAri” , an inseparable aspect of the indivisible nature of the deity.

No !! one cannot continue to bad-mouth the ardhanAri concept or any other idea within the kritis and also listen to ANY of the tyAgarAjas kritis …or ANY of the other vAggeyakAras.

Such inconsistency is the hall-mark of an invalid system of values.

There are many other composers (including those of film-songs) who are available as options for ALL such that are unworthy and undeserving of the nAdayOgis.

[RSR]

Both SS and Thyagaraja were Smarthas. Smarthas follow Sankaracharya system. It is an inclusive system. It approves the fait accompli of all the gods in popular hindu pantheon like siva, durga, vishnu,ganapathy, subramanya and vedism of smruthis..perhaps saraswathy and lakshmi from vedic chants.
In smartha households, especially in tamil country, we will find pictures of almost all the gods and godesses
.
Some families have their favourite deitis. But after Ramauja 1100 and Madhwa, their followers are strict vaishnavites like daasa saints. Such families do not generally worship any deiity except in vaishnava line.
Most iengars nowadays are not too orthodox.
The controversy was resolved by the wonderful pantheon. Vishnu is brother of parvathi. Siva is his sisters husband
Ganapathy and subramanya were the sons of siva.parvathy.
Lakshmi is the spouse of vishnu..
So, the kruthis in CM by Trinity and all the post..trinity composers cover the whole well defined pantheon.
But, it is not correct to mix up too much.
For example, himagiri thanaye , hmb errs in raama sahodhari..

[RSR]

Just because, one is a smartha and follows all the deities in hindu pantheon, one need not take every line in in so many puranaas or even the
Smruthis, to be verbatimly correct. Why then was the necessity for the trinity of sankara, raamaanuja and maadva to interpret Gita differently? For one thing, every lore had introduced its own banal variations over many centuries over this vast land. No one can really claim to have studied all the vedas , upanishads, puranas and prayers. We just nibble at the edges.
Reverting back to CM, SS was a staunch Kamaakshi
I upasaka. Thyagaraja mainly a Raama bhaktha but has created compositions on Siva also . Even among vaishnavites, there are differences. So too among all the sects. Sankara movement may have eliminated more tantric pratices even among saakthas and saivites. And made the pantheon more socially conducive , intellectual and literar . He is often said to be a Buddnist in approach. And vedic smruthi followedr also absorbed many fine features from reform movements like jainism and buddhism, but the reality and tragedy of life is that of corruption.
If we read a few upanishads considered to be the final form of vedic lore, we find a lot of re.examining and questioning.
Many scholars hence assert that jainism and buddhism are derived from upanishads. Upanishads are mostly free from puraanic aberrations..naturally since they predate puraanaas by nearly 1200 years.
The task then is to integrate the best of the past with art form of music and literature and thus was were born the compositions of CM
.
And the TRinity came after the thamizh
Moovar. ..mutthu thaandavar,Marimutha Pillai preceded the trinity by a century. Classical music system in thamizh country did not begin with either venkatamahi or govindacharya. We had thamizh music system long before that.
Gopalakrushna barathy was i think, contemporary ot MD and had studied and used Hm ragas in his kruthis.
In literature Kamba raamaayanam is a masterpiece .1100Ad.
Arunachala kavi sang about Raamaa even before thyagaraja.
Saivite music composers preceded the Trinity by hundred years.
Significantly, the composers sang about Nataraja, vastly different from the lingam icon of indusvalley perhaps.
Similarly,raamaa was sung by arunachala kavi even before thyagaraja.]So, one can be selective in liking or rejecting kruthis of even the TRinity. We are
rejecting the unsavoury overinterpretations of pretentious pundits. Why not? We may then be actually better upholders of the best of traditions.
Actually, Hm [/b]may have more raagaas than CM.

[SrinathK]

Perhaps one should play a clip of L Subramaniam's Conversations on the violin to him and see what the audiences are really thrilled about. If you want to pull in the crowds, you gotta to rock and roll, pop and rhyme with rap, hip and hop, shred and beat the blues, add some jazz, touch the folk, and dance to Tamil Cinema, Tollywood and Bollywood, maybe sing in Latin, or call yourself classist, and do an opera.

Disclaimer : Just trolling...

All music is an acquired taste and some people in my own family will just not like Carnatic. Many of my gen can't take it. I had a couple of friends in college who were weired out by the sound of the tambura but had no issues with drums or the full belt screams of their favourite rockstars or rappers. It's ok. Everyone doesn't have to like every music out there. And just because they are a big name, it doesn't make their likes and dislikes or opinions bigger. It is just the same as any other ear. I also have my limits listening to other genres. Some people get moved and emotional to music that sounds frankly violent or bizarre to my ears , at best catchy or peppy to me. But it's epic to them. That's ok too.

What I personally found is Carnatic actually made it easier for me to listen to a lot of other genres too. It's not necessarily true the other way around, that is rarer. Specifically with Hindustani music, it is easier for a CM listener to appreciate HM than the other way round. And it isn't because CM isn't melodious or out of tune or all those reasons. Some ears are just too conditioned, some are just either badly informed about Carnatic and some people are just too opinionated.

[RSR]

If you give that to a tri state north-south blender of a musician in Belgaum or something, he/she would run circles

Wonderful wording...i think, it is more Hubli/Dharwar than Belgaum. Thanks.

On second thoughts,if you meant konkan, karnataka and maharashtra, you are right . But your thesis as you know , is not for my line. ShankaranK
..............

[RSR]

@SrinathK
My experience is slightly different
I began to like classical music from boyhood through tne pandaripuram yathra group singing who had camped in perumaaL koil in our small town for a month. They did not collect funds but accepted whatever the public gave. Later on only, i learned that they were all HM classical tunes.
Rather uniquely, we had a small but lovely Paandurangan temple. That was all back in 1947.
You are right that environment shapes our tastes. My environment took me to HM related ragas, mainly, except for about 60 pure CM ragas, mainly through Thyaagaraja kruthis rendered by great vocalists. I do not know telugu and so the fascination was only through the tunes, just like listening to Lata from 1947 to 1962.
It made me love HM vocal and instruments.
I am totally impervious to WCM.
I suppose , it is partly to do with individual frequency response.
....
May I request you to see the following
Thread? It is about violin string for GM
https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36093



.

[RSR]

This is for rasikas with familiarity to western music,,some thing to do with voice range.
The Sound of Music
https://youtu.be/RWSKXWB7_9Y
1965 film
Starring Julie Andrews

Singing all the songs in her own voice.
..
A delightful film, may be the best from Hoĺlywood
Video clips for the songs are available in utube. But the link does nt..copyright perhaps
https://youtu.be/30BieCz5NKc

[shankarank]

If you give that to a tri state north-south blender of a musician in Belgaum or something, he/she would run circles

Wonderful wording...i think, it is more Hubli/Dharwar than Belgaum. Thanks.

On second thoughts,if you meant konkan, karnataka and maharashtra, you are right . But your thesis as you know , is not for my line. ShankaranK
..............

There may not be any music worth it's name in Belgaum - well there seems to be : https://kledeemeduniversity.edu.in/musi ... 54b27-6f7a

What is that sugam sangeeth?

I just picked up the city to make a figurative expression. So please come out of your literalism to at least appreciate some figures of speech!

Since it is in the northern side abutting the Hyderabad-Karnataka ( Bellary), I used the term tri-state!

[shankarank]

A different question: Is Kalpita sangItam to be translated as "taught music"? Sometimes people , I think, mis-translate it as "set" music!

Taught music utilizes a certain, may be a time tested, method! Should that be mis-construed as "set" music?

[RSR]

@sankarank
Many in this forum, may not have travelled by TRAIN from Ernakulam to Hubli, through Shoranur, Tirur, Calicut, Kasargode,Mangalore, Udupi, Karwar ,
Belgaum, Gataprabha, karwar., especially in monsoon period. Heavenly. Konkan should have been a separate state, though it is now fragmented between Kerala, Karnataka,Maharashtra. I did like your -tri-state' phrase.
You are right about kalpitha sangeeth also.

[ramamatya]

If Hindustani were so great, why aren't modern Bollywood songs using the ragas as opposed to modern south Indian films using carnatic ragas? Personally I feel bored of Hindustani music, in fact, it was only a passing fantasy in the 90s in madras with many wanting an edge over their singing competitors. Their slow 'dwelling' can get too stagnant and dull. That music needs to reinvent itself. Weeping and wailing, the music gives an 'eadache' to this lay mind.

[thamizhisai_piriyan]

Coming late to this discussion. As a long time informed (but still lay) fan of both forms, I cannot agree with Pt. Ajoy Chakraborty. The aesthetics of the two genres are different. And I'd say the faster pace is intrinsic to CM's aesthetics. It's a feature not a bug. Further, the RTP format is the place where one can hear sustained and slow development of the raga. It is equal in aesthetic beauty to the instrumental Alap, jod, jhala format in Hindustani music. One also should mention artists like L. Shankar who have focused exclusively on the RTP format and not on the compositions of the trinity. They have largely adhered to CM's aesthetics while giving a more vistAra view of CM ragas. So it's not that it can't be done.

Also has panditji listened to MDR?

[thamizhisai_piriyan]

If Hindustani were so great, why aren't modern Bollywood songs using the ragas as opposed to modern south Indian films using carnatic ragas? Personally I feel bored of Hindustani music, in fact, it was only a passing fantasy in the 90s in madras with many wanting an edge over their singing competitors. Their slow 'dwelling' can get too stagnant and dull. That music needs to reinvent itself. Weeping and wailing, the music gives an 'eadache' to this lay mind.

Can't agree with this either having listened to many beautiful renditions by Pt Mallikarjun Mansur and Ud Amir Khan. There is no need to reconcile and compare the two genres. They have fundamentally different aesthetics and we can appreciate both. And I do love the cross pollination. Ud. Amir Khan's charukeshi a quintessential important from CM into HM is beautiful and dripping with pathos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E31tQK-prtg

Slow can also be utterly beautiful. I do love Dhrupad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nILJCuplkI

[sankark]

If Hindustani were so great, why aren't modern Bollywood songs using the ragas as opposed to modern south Indian films using carnatic ragas? Personally I feel bored of Hindustani music, in fact, it was only a passing fantasy in the 90s in madras with many wanting an edge over their singing competitors. Their slow 'dwelling' can get too stagnant and dull. That music needs to reinvent itself. Weeping and wailing, the music gives an 'eadache' to this lay mind.

Can't agree with this either having listened to many beautiful renditions by Pt Mallikarjun Mansur and Ud Amir Khan. There is no need to reconcile and compare the two genres. They have fundamentally different aesthetics and we can appreciate both. And I do love the cross pollination. Ud. Amir Khan's charukeshi a quintessential important from CM into HM is beautiful and dripping with pathos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E31tQK-prtg

Slow can also be utterly beautiful. I do love Dhrupad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nILJCuplkI

as much cross pollination is all the rage and fine and all, i humbly ask people to not serve vaththakuzhambu with dal makhni. keep it to a sutta appalam or paruppu thogaiyal. or if you want some dairy in the accompaniment, just go with dangar pachchadi.

[thamizhisai_piriyan]

as much cross pollination is all the rage and fine and all, i humbly ask people to not serve vaththakuzhambu with dal makhni. keep it to a sutta appalam or paruppu thogaiyal. or if you want some dairy in the accompaniment, just go with dangar pachchadi.

I agree, but do you think Dikshitar was serving paneer dosai when he brought in Dwijavanti, Brindavana Saranga and possibly Hameer Kalyani from HM?

[sam]

CM Kruthis are not the essence of CM.
Their raagam is the essence.
HM classical is actually true Indian classical music tradition.
HM makes use of just a dozen NON VIVADI melas. Their cm counterpart are
Todi, Sankarabaranam, Harikambodhi,
Karaharapriya, Panthuvaraali, subapanthuvarali, natabairavi, gamanasramam, kalyani, maayamalavagowla
That is why HM is more emotionally appealing, either vocal or instrmental.
..
mk-number CM NAME
HM NAME
1 8 HANUMATH TODI
BAIRAVI-HM
2 15 MAYAMALAVAGOWLA BAIRAV
3 20 NATAVBAIRAVI ASAVERI
4 22 KARAHARAPRIYA KAPI
5 28 HARIKAMBODHI KAMAJ
6 29
SANKARABARANAM BILAWAL
7 45 SUBAPANTHUVARALI TODI-HM
8 51 PANTHUVARALI POORVI
9 53 GAMANASRAMA MARWA
10 65 MECHA KALYANI YAMAN

[sankark]

as much cross pollination is all the rage and fine and all, i humbly ask people to not serve vaththakuzhambu with dal makhni. keep it to a sutta appalam or paruppu thogaiyal. or if you want some dairy in the accompaniment, just go with dangar pachchadi.

I agree, but do you think Dikshitar was serving paneer dosai when he brought in Dwijavanti, Brindavana Saranga and possibly Hameer Kalyani from HM?

hameerkalyANi - just can't stand it. Or yaman (or yamunAkalyAni, its an eman). They can never sing these two in a CM concert and that will be too soon. the other two: depends on the paksham/thithi/muhurtham/hOrai, chEtah sri appeals for its for the lack of better word, its flow/grandeur; but I would tune off if someone were to starting elaborating dwijavanthi for more than 3-4 minutes and say, ok, enough, move on.

[hnbhagavan]

Just because Dr.CNR RAO is no more listening to CM does not make it any inferior.Ajoy Chakrbarthy can have his individual views.I hold the view HM is monotonous at times in the name of Vilambit call and the percussions have no role at all.
Carnatic Music is highly challenging and flexible.A krithi can be sung for ihour plus like MDR or can be less than 15 minutes as in modern days.
I feel demeaning CM as compared to HM is not fair and vice versa.
One such normalise the views even if it is Ajoy Chakrabarthy or Prof CNR Rao.
Ramakrishnan Murthy or Vignesh Easwar or Rithwik Raja among many others who are performing are carrying on our rich tradition of CM.

[shankarank]

nInga vEra. avargal isaiyil ellA ragamum enakkellam onnatan kEtkiridu! izhukkura izhuppila 10 pillai petturalaam - to use an old expression for slowness.

[thenpaanan]

I don't really know what to say about the esthetics of slow singing or "thehrao". However I can report on my experience of learning the slow singing called vilambit or baDA khayAl of Hindustani music.

Late last year I had the privilege of hosting a top grade Hindustani singer for a couple of weeks at my place. After much hesitation I requested that the Vidushi teach me something and she promptly assented. Then came the all-important question "what do you wish to learn?" I think she was expecting to teach me a bhajan or something simple like that. But I felt that I should learn something that I had never learned before -- bhajans and such I thought I could easily, or with some effort, manage on my own. But I had never learned a vilambit. I had watched my daughters learn vilambit khayAl over the years but I had never managed to master one myself nor is there anything quite like it in Carnatic. So I requested the Vidushi teach me a vilambit khayal, which she graciously agreed to. If she had any misgivings on the matter she did not let on and I did not feel that she had any doubts about my abilities.

She taught me a baDA khayAl in rUpak taal (7 beats) and so you have a concrete idea of the speed of the taal, this was in 27 beats per minute speed. One Avarthanam takes just 16 seconds and the sthAyi is just two Avarthanams long. Being used to singing plenty a chowka kaala kriti I was quite confident that this is not something extraordinary.

The only way I can describe the experience in a nutshell is that she "straightened me out" (it sounds much better in idiomatic Tamil "bent-a nimithiTA"). It was an exercise whose difficulty I cannot describe fully. Here are some impressionistic pictures of the experience.

1. The slowness of a vilambit was a totally new experience for me. It was something much much slower than anything I had handled before.
2. The challenge was not just in the slowness of the taal but the few words that were used. 32 seconds to finish the sthAyi does not seem like a long time on paper but when you try to sing it out it is quite formidable.
3. Because of the paucity of the words, most of the time, perhaps 90% of the time, is spent on vowels which have to be held for especially long stretches.
4. In a vilambit the emphasized beats of the taal are not very important so the only time you get to really synchronize with the taal or the metronome or the tabla is the "sam" . Nevertheless you are expected to sing each syllable exactly on the assigned beat in the taal (much like the similar rule with words in a Carnatic pallavi). Which means that if you are not familiar with singing with a Tabla, you have to keep all that super-long timing in your head. As a carnatic singer I found it quite a challenge to internalize the gait of the slow rUpak.
5. Because of the long-seeming intervals between consonants, I found I had to really focus on the shape of the vowels as I sang them. This forced me to be extremely intentional in my singing at every moment. I had to pay attention to every aspect of the singing -- the vowel shape, the pitch, the tone, the volume modulation, everything was like it was under a microscope.
6. And the most difficult part -- the khayAl is almost entirely improvised -- so while I was managing all the items above I had to improvise in the raag as well, without repeating too much, keeping the elusive structure of the raag intact, without hurrying up and down the scale just to fill the space. No random movements, no unnecessary flourishes (brigas etc), just plain singing and gradual build-up. The discipline was quite unlike anything I have found in Carnatic music.
7. After two hours of this, the Vidushi was seemingly frustrated with my lack of progress. She mildly observed that it would have been better to pick a faster composition that would have been "closer to a Carnatic kriti". But I was adamant that this was exactly what I wanted to learn. The very fact that it was hard for me made it all the more worthwhile.
8. Since that class, I have been practising on my own for a while trying to master the raag and the taal at the same time. I hope I have made some progress. I have been afraid to go back to the Vidushi and show her what progress if any I have made. I sing in front of my kids since they have been learning Hindustani for some six years. The younger one simply shakes her head sadly and does not say anything, while the older one makes encouraging noises like "it is just your first khayAl, Dad. Don't be so rough on yourself."

Now for some observations beyond the challenges.

9. Perhaps a better or more capable student would have picked it up more easily, but clearly this was the most difficult music for me to learn (this is including my Western classical and Jazz lessons). The Carnatic impulse is to jump to the nearest synchronization point (when we slap the thigh or get with the mridangam), I now realize leads to some shortcutting of the melodic detail. Of course this is a no no in Western music as well but at an extra slow gait it is excruciatingly detailed. But once you get the hang of it, the there-is-a-whole-new-world-of-timing-here feeling is quite out of this world.
10. The extra long vowels that have to be held really test your tonal stability and your breath alike. It takes quite a bit of preparation to sing like that. I found myself exhausted and exhilarated at the end of a long session like a gym workout.
11. The intense concentration required to sing a vilambit took me to a new level of focus that I have rarely experienced in Carnatic -- perhaps it is just the newness of it, or my lack of ability, or something else. I would like to think that the very way of singing a vilambit leads me to that level of one-ness with the music.

Whatever the merits of the criticism from Panditji or the other disparaging remarks made about Hindustani music, my own engagement thus far with the "thehrao" has left me a much chastened and hopefully wiser musician.

-T

[arasi]

thenpaanan,
Priceless post!

[nAdopAsaka]

Notwithstanding the zeal of new ( and old ) converts, it has to be pointed out that this thread began with a singularly foolish disparagement of nAda-upAsana, the musical worship of Hindu vAk-geya-kAras.

While everyone is free to arrive at and declare their own conclusions, I vehemently resist what I see as wilful and also inadvertent erosion of the legacy of the vAggeyakAras, whose worship imbues word with song.

I say... All hindustani music, and particularly this glorified dwelling , vilambit, thehrao etc. is the exposition of vanity, thinly veiled by technical terminology.

The corrosive nature of this vanity and ego has spilled onto the kutChEri “stage”, as seen in the arrogance and adulation of performance artists of the last 100 years.

I say...The gharAnas are narcissistic cults designed to promote the lineages of this-or-that stage artiste.

Indeed, the very word “vilambana” implies delay, procrastination and indulgence.

I find no redeeming value in such “music”.

[sam]

thenpaanan Sir,
.
Thank you for such a great post.

but clearly this was the most difficult music for me to learn (this is including my Western classical and Jazz lessons)
..

I am surprised that you know CM, HM both classical , light classical and film songs .
.
and Western music, both WCM and pop.
Recently, while reading about the trinity of WCM, who were near contemporaries of Trinity of CM, i found the lines that the pure instrumental music of WCM is emotional and spiritual also.
.
I am at a loss.
.
How can a tune played in instrument be spiritual? Without lyrics?
.
May I have your explanation and experience?
.
I am not trying to start any argument but trying to get the view of a person like you with such broad exposure to all the major streams.

[sam]

Thyagaraja (1767-1847) was contemporaneous to
Mozart (1756-1791) and
Beethoven (1770-1827).

[sankark]

I don't really know what to say about the esthetics of slow singing or "thehrao". However I can report on my experience of learning the slow singing called vilambit or baDA khayAl of Hindustani music.

Late last year I had the privilege of hosting a top grade Hindustani singer for a couple of weeks at my place. After much hesitation I requested that the Vidushi teach me something and she promptly assented. Then came the all-important question "what do you wish to learn?" I think she was expecting to teach me a bhajan or something simple like that. But I felt that I should learn something that I had never learned before -- bhajans and such I thought I could easily, or with some effort, manage on my own. But I had never learned a vilambit. I had watched my daughters learn vilambit khayAl over the years but I had never managed to master one myself nor is there anything quite like it in Carnatic. So I requested the Vidushi teach me a vilambit khayal, which she graciously agreed to. If she had any misgivings on the matter she did not let on and I did not feel that she had any doubts about my abilities.

She taught me a baDA khayAl in rUpak taal (7 beats) and so you have a concrete idea of the speed of the taal, this was in 27 beats per minute speed. One Avarthanam takes just 16 seconds and the sthAyi is just two Avarthanams long. Being used to singing plenty a chowka kaala kriti I was quite confident that this is not something extraordinary.

The only way I can describe the experience in a nutshell is that she "straightened me out" (it sounds much better in idiomatic Tamil "bent-a nimithiTA"). It was an exercise whose difficulty I cannot describe fully. Here are some impressionistic pictures of the experience.

1. The slowness of a vilambit was a totally new experience for me. It was something much much slower than anything I had handled before.
2. The challenge was not just in the slowness of the taal but the few words that were used. 32 seconds to finish the sthAyi does not seem like a long time on paper but when you try to sing it out it is quite formidable.
3. Because of the paucity of the words, most of the time, perhaps 90% of the time, is spent on vowels which have to be held for especially long stretches.
4. In a vilambit the emphasized beats of the taal are not very important so the only time you get to really synchronize with the taal or the metronome or the tabla is the "sam" . Nevertheless you are expected to sing each syllable exactly on the assigned beat in the taal (much like the similar rule with words in a Carnatic pallavi). Which means that if you are not familiar with singing with a Tabla, you have to keep all that super-long timing in your head. As a carnatic singer I found it quite a challenge to internalize the gait of the slow rUpak.
5. Because of the long-seeming intervals between consonants, I found I had to really focus on the shape of the vowels as I sang them. This forced me to be extremely intentional in my singing at every moment. I had to pay attention to every aspect of the singing -- the vowel shape, the pitch, the tone, the volume modulation, everything was like it was under a microscope.
6. And the most difficult part -- the khayAl is almost entirely improvised -- so while I was managing all the items above I had to improvise in the raag as well, without repeating too much, keeping the elusive structure of the raag intact, without hurrying up and down the scale just to fill the space. No random movements, no unnecessary flourishes (brigas etc), just plain singing and gradual build-up. The discipline was quite unlike anything I have found in Carnatic music.
7. After two hours of this, the Vidushi was seemingly frustrated with my lack of progress. She mildly observed that it would have been better to pick a faster composition that would have been "closer to a Carnatic kriti". But I was adamant that this was exactly what I wanted to learn. The very fact that it was hard for me made it all the more worthwhile.
8. Since that class, I have been practising on my own for a while trying to master the raag and the taal at the same time. I hope I have made some progress. I have been afraid to go back to the Vidushi and show her what progress if any I have made. I sing in front of my kids since they have been learning Hindustani for some six years. The younger one simply shakes her head sadly and does not say anything, while the older one makes encouraging noises like "it is just your first khayAl, Dad. Don't be so rough on yourself."

Now for some observations beyond the challenges.

9. Perhaps a better or more capable student would have picked it up more easily, but clearly this was the most difficult music for me to learn (this is including my Western classical and Jazz lessons). The Carnatic impulse is to jump to the nearest synchronization point (when we slap the thigh or get with the mridangam), I now realize leads to some shortcutting of the melodic detail. Of course this is a no no in Western music as well but at an extra slow gait it is excruciatingly detailed. But once you get the hang of it, the there-is-a-whole-new-world-of-timing-here feeling is quite out of this world.
10. The extra long vowels that have to be held really test your tonal stability and your breath alike. It takes quite a bit of preparation to sing like that. I found myself exhausted and exhilarated at the end of a long session like a gym workout.
11. The intense concentration required to sing a vilambit took me to a new level of focus that I have rarely experienced in Carnatic -- perhaps it is just the newness of it, or my lack of ability, or something else. I would like to think that the very way of singing a vilambit leads me to that level of one-ness with the music.

Whatever the merits of the criticism from Panditji or the other disparaging remarks made about Hindustani music, my own engagement thus far with the "thehrao" has left me a much chastened and hopefully wiser musician.

-T

let me see if get the gist right of the long post: khayal singing is like singing an exacting nereval athiathichowka-athichowka-chowka-madhya-durita-athidurita-athiathiduritha - in the bolded kalams, to fit into the structure of the tALam and landing at the exact point and not repeating the phrases ad nauseam and maintaining shruti/swarasthana sudhdham. and that is mostly absent in concert stage in the present CM stage.

[sam]

"Ustad Zakir Hussain ~
1985
Doordarshan Recital ~


..https://youtu.be/hvCnYcXGqYM?si=535tjwTnPYT8M2Sx

..
"Ustad Alla Rakha &
Ustad Zakir Hussain - Ektaal - Jugalbandi -
Father & Son Duo -
1976"

https://youtu.be/BgG7BhIBSAU?si=f_0UP0UqLzkIW0Ec
.

[thenpaanan]

...

let me see if get the gist right of the long post: khayal singing is like singing an exacting nereval athiathichowka-athichowka-chowka-madhya-durita-athidurita-athiathiduritha - in the bolded kalams, to fit into the structure of the tALam and landing at the exact point and not repeating the phrases ad nauseam and maintaining shruti/swarasthana sudhdham. and that is mostly absent in concert stage in the present CM stage.

A spot on summary.

The only thing I would change is the very last part. I am not commenting on the CM stage nor do I want to. My take is that CM focuses on the interplay of melody, lyric, and rhythm, which is wholly valid and fantastic in its own right. Vilambit explores a dimension of music that CM does not. That's all. Every musical system draws its boundaries intentionally or traditionally and often a person steeped in one system does not get the opportunity to enjoy something that is far beyond those boundaries.

-T

[thenpaanan]

thenpaanan Sir,
.
...

I am surprised that you know CM, HM both classical , light classical and film songs .
.
and Western music, both WCM and pop.

Recently, while reading about the trinity of WCM, who were near contemporaries of Trinity of CM, i found the lines that the pure instrumental music of WCM is emotional and spiritual also.
.
I am at a loss.
.
How can a tune played in instrument be spiritual? Without lyrics?
.
May I have your explanation and experience?
.
I am not trying to start any argument but trying to get the view of a person like you with such broad exposure to all the major streams.

Thanks, Sam, for your kind words. As far as the various musical traditions go, "know" is too strong a word to use for me. CM is the only system of which I can claim to know anything in depth. I only have a passing familiarity with the other systems.

As to your question as to why music, even without lyrics, moves us, I can confidently assert that no one knows the answer to this fundamental question. I have two books sitting on my desk, waiting to be read, on music and the brain. My current understanding is that the human affinity for what we call "musical sound" is quite universal across the species, and it seems to be a pure side-effect of genetic evolution, the evolution of the brain in particular. Other animals seem to be attracted to what we consider music but what they feel when they listen to what we consider music seems unknown.

Bird song and whale song (and maybe even elephant communications) are the often quoted parallels of complex sound creation from the animal world, but we are at least nominally able to ascribe to them the need/benefit of communication between members of the species. In humans, who are able to communicate quite effectively without resorting to musical sound, it is not clear what the benefit is. Why do humans engage in music even at the cost of physical discomfort? It just seems to be some interplay between a modestly good hearing apparatus and an extremely capable brain.

Why we seem to like some musical sounds and not others seems to be a matter of experience and exposure, aka upbringing. There are some universals of course. We all love the sound of laughter, babies' babbling, etc, and we all hate the sound of crying and pain in general. These seem to be easy to explain. But the larger question about our infatuation with complex sounds and sound making is unexplained. I used to think that perhaps we are somehow attracted to consonant sounds (i.e. sounds that have some simple frequency relationship with each other) but even that does not pan out. There are musical traditions where dissonance is deliberate and desired.

-T

[sankark]

...

let me see if get the gist right of the long post: khayal singing is like singing an exacting nereval athiathichowka-athichowka-chowka-madhya-durita-athidurita-athiathiduritha - in the bolded kalams, to fit into the structure of the tALam and landing at the exact point and not repeating the phrases ad nauseam and maintaining shruti/swarasthana sudhdham. and that is mostly absent in concert stage in the present CM stage.

A spot on summary.

The only thing I would change is the very last part. I am not commenting on the CM stage nor do I want to. My take is that CM focuses on the interplay of melody, lyric, and rhythm, which is wholly valid and fantastic in its own right. Vilambit explores a dimension of music that CM does not. That's all. Every musical system draws its boundaries intentionally or traditionally and often a person steeped in one system does not get the opportunity to enjoy something that is far beyond those boundaries.

-T

Vilambit explores a dimension of music that CM *artistes generally do* not *in concert#*. That's all. With the dearth of RTP and even with RTPs with elaborate r/t but mostly perfunctory trikalam & more ragamalika swarams. The issue is with the audience & artistes.


# do they practice it at home/do it in chamber music settings?

[thenpaanan]

...

Vilambit explores a dimension of music that CM *artistes generally do* not *in concert#*. That's all. With the dearth of RTP and even with RTPs with elaborate r/t but mostly perfunctory trikalam & more ragamalika swarams. The issue is with the audience & artistes.


# do they practice it at home/do it in chamber music settings?

I have personally never heard an RTP that goes that slow either in performances of any kind or even in practice sessions. If someone has come across a recording please post.

Just to point out a contrast, over the years I have come across only a handful of 4-kalai pallavis or similar; apparently they used to be more common in yesteryears. But note that these constructions make the pallavi line longer with more rhythm points to fill but don't necessarily slow down the melody. In fact, instead of going slower, I have heard some mind-bending rhythmic complexities inside a 4K pallavi, filling the tAlam points with a combination of lots of fast moving patterns and precisely measured karvais.

Back to your point about RTP, in many cases you can hear or sense the beat counting happening in the melodic treatment in the long drawn karvais, especially the trikAlam part, which like you say has become perfunctory. This seems contrary to the spirit of a vilambit, where you don't seem bound by the tAl at all until you approach the sam. Also note that the slow part of the typical pallavi exposition is a fleeting one and quickly gives way to the faster moving stuff. In other words, the modern pallavi, at least from what I have listened to, is more a rhythmic exercise than a melodic one. Even in the oldest recordings available on tape (i.e. not counting EPs and LPs which were severely time-constrained) the pallavis are all brisk with lots of vigorous participation of the percussion instruments. I have never come across any mention that pallavis were slower in the past and have speeded up in modern times (CM historians like Rangaramanuja Iyengar or Mysore Vasudevachar have never said that CM was rendered slower in the era before recording devices).

If there are recordings where the slow improvised rendering of the melody (neraval or pallavi) lasts more than a few minutes please post. As far as I know MDR was the only one who would do that consistently, but then he was considered unorthodox and unique for that. I think the manner of percussion accompaniment will also have to change to accommodate slow singing. Arun Kumar is the only mridangist I have heard who does not try to fill the time and is happy to gently tap his drum and let the melody carry itself. But he also seems unique in his approach.

Perhaps modern students of CM do try slow singing in practice sessions or chamber music concert. If so I would be very happy to know the details.

-T

[rajeshnat]

I think the manner of percussion accompaniment will also have to change to accommodate slow singing. Arun Kumar is the only mridangist I have heard who does not try to fill the time and is happy to gently tap his drum and let the melody carry itself. But he also seems unique in his approach.

Is that ArunKumar or ArunPrakash??

[sam]

@Thenpaanan!

As to your question as to why music, even without lyrics, moves us, I can confidently assert that no one knows the answer to this fundamental question

Thank you, Sir.
.
According to theory, raagaas evoke
certain emotions, i was feeling desolate on a particular day and happened to hear a behag by Bismilla Khan. My gloom fled at once.