Maintaining the tempo

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Aug 2006, 10:21

After the glitch, around 1:25 I feel the change. The main beat does not seem to change..so the variation did not cause an avarthanam length change. So it is one of the 'illusory' ones. Correct?

BTW, in that dance clip referred in the dance thread http://66.36.252.46/kb/natyanjali05/ais ... _12200.wmv,

starting around 4:30 to 4:40, the khanda nadai there sounds to be the real one ( given the overall context of the song preceding that ). Please check me on that.

Also, I listened to the panchanadai portions of the thillana again..Right, what you describe is what khp ( Vinod ) calls a cross rhythm without changing the avarthana duration. Vinod provides an alternate interpretation of that sequence as a 'real' nadai change if nadai changes are allowed between the angAs at 4 beat boundaries. So, it is either cross-rhythm or ( questionably ) real nadai change.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Aug 2006, 20:03

around 1:25 I feel the change

You are in the right neigbourhood but if i am not mistaken the part at 1:25 is the one with the sequence: | tha-tha-ri-, | tha-tha-Na-, | tha-ju-Nu-, | tha-dhi-mi-,

where "," is a pause and so it is still catuSra naDai (4 syllables per akshara/beat). But immediately after this though at 1:29, he goes tha-ri-tha-dha-Na and that is tiSra naDa: tha-ri-tha | da-Na-, | da-Na-ta | ju-Nu-, etc.

Another cue you can look for in dance is the cymbal beat (although that doesnt obviously go like a metronome but it is not crystal clear always).

But i could be wrong in my judgement too. As I mentioned before I am also in the process of learning here.

So it is one of the 'illusory' ones. Correct?

Yes even though even after your clarification, i find the term illusory for this unacceptable

. To me this is a very real naDai change just like the MLV sample you posted. You are doing 3 mathrais per akshara as explained above, and so you are in tiSra naDai. That the akshara spacing is (and has to be in this case) the same as that in the original catuSra naDai is sort of immaterial. May be it is me, but here i can sense a change in gait of the song literally when this happens. Also this type of thing is referred to as "doing tiSra naDai or tiSram" in music circles and so the performers definitely think it as a naDai change.

Ironically, the most common case (like in the tillana) is the one that seems "less real" to me but that is also referred to as doing different naDais. Among this case, the most common example is korvais during tani where the korvai expressed as "n" number of mathrais, and is repeated 3 times in different nadais so that the total count 3*n is such that, it achieves the correct synchronization with original tala at the intended spot. Here the mathrai spacing is the same for all naDai and thus is similar to the pancanaDai example. Now you look at this one way and (as you stated in the other thread), and you see that we are still doing only 4 mathrais per akshara, and you are not really changing naDai. But the kOrvai in "n" mathrais when done in tIsra naDai, is divided into sets of 3 (and 6) and so one can also argue that this division "overrides" the default one (atleast temporarily) and thus does consitutue a naDai switch. I am not sure, but in this case also performers view doing the kOrvai in different gatis and so from that viewpoint, not sure if we can term it as illusary or less real.

But I guess there are various flavors of this, and various perceptions on it. But isnt that what music and arts is all about!

The khanDa naDai part in the dance: I cant seem to open it Is the link right? I did go to the original link in the thread. But are we still talking about the thillana? Since your time index is low and indicates towards the beginning of the show?

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Aug 2006, 20:23

vk,

I also think the example with the jati is the same as that of the more common example of tiSra naDai in RTPs that Ashwin mentioned earlier.

Let us say you have a pallavi whose sahitya spans 32 mathrais and you are rendering it in Adi tala 1-kalai. Let us say at the speed you picked, each akshara is 1.2 seconds and thus a cycle is 9.6 seconds. In catuSra naDai, this means each mathrai is 1.2/4 = 0.3 seconds.

Now in tiSra naDai, as Ashwin stated, the singer sings the sahitya 3 times over 2 cycles. Note that here also the overall akshara duration and thus cycle duration cannot and must not change. It remains 1.2 seconds per akshara leading to 9.6 seconds per cycle of tala. So with tiSra naDai, you are to fit threee iterations of the pallavi i.e. 3*32 = 96 mathrais in 2 cycles of tala i.e. 2*9.6 = 19.2 seconds. So that means each mathra is 19.2/96 = 0.2 seconds. This means you are fitting 1.2/0.2 = 6 mathrais per akshara. So it is perhaps more like tiSra mEl kAlam.

In one dance mallari i have head, we do have the catusra naDai spans 3 cycles (say 32*3 = 96), and so when in tiSra naDai it spans 4 cycles (4*24 = 96).

I think to keep our demo complete, we should put up a portion of RTP which has tiSra naDai. Also we should hunt down samples, where during an avartanam of the song, only the mridangam changes to khanDa and miSra naDai with a mathrai-spacing change. I am sure I have heard this but i am not sure if i can locate it easily. People any help?

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Aug 2006, 23:16

But are we still talking about the thillana? Since your time index is low and indicates towards the beginning of the show?

Yes, it is in the beginning of the show and not the thillana. Hope you could access the link from the original thread.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Aug 2006, 00:41

vk,

yes it does switch from catuSra to khaNDa at around 04:30 - although for me it was difficult to say if it was done with mathrai spacing same or not. I am not 100% sure about this: since at the very end where it briefly goes to catuSra gati, theh tempo appears to speed up, i am guessing mathrai spacing is same. If matrai spacing is adjusted then khaNDa would seem faster than catuSra since you are fitting thaka-thakita in the same of a thaka-dimi, so each mathrai is shorter. Similarly when it goes from catuSra to khanDa it appears to "slow down".

I also will not be surprised if the song is actually in khanDa cApu that has been adapted to dance with catuSra naDai based jati at beginning (although doesnt explain the need to get back to catuSra naDai at the end). The entire kriti part of it is in khanDa naDai only - isnt it? Once the switch happens it stays until the very very end - atleast so it seems to me.

Here is an example of changing naDais in a regular krithi: Check this out BMK's rendition of tyAgarAja's gandamu poyyagurA (naukA caritramu): http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/IJx ... .As1NMvHdW. I think it is very common to introduce tiSra naDai for this krithi.

Now, am i interpreting this wrong or is BMK doing khaNDa naDai also besides tiSra naDai? In typical BMK fashion, the flow is let us say "unique" (:-), and it is hard for me to read. Or is the mridangist doing khaNDa naDai when BMK is going into tiSra naDai (?)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Aug 2006, 05:21

I can't hear that MOI link clearly. But to the extent I could hear, it sounds like any changes do not involve a change in akshara kAlam.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Aug 2006, 05:28

Summarizing, there are three things.

1) Nadai variations as part of the suladi saptha thala 175 family. mAthra kAlam is the same and the akshara kAla varies among the 5 variations. This is demonstrated by DRS in the second part of his demo and also as done by MLV in that sample.

2) What is sometimes done in kalpanasaram and thani where the akshara kAlam is kept the same and mAthra kAla is varied. This is what DRS calls nadai illusion and is demonstrated in the first part of his demo.

3) No change in mAthra kAlam and no change in akshara kAlam. This is what Vinod called cross-rhythm. It is a regrouping of mAthrais into 3,4,5,7 and 9 done over an otherwise a regular chathusra nadai base. This is demonstrated in the dance during the panchanadai portion of the thillana.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Aug 2006, 22:14

vk,

You have summarized correctly as three flavors. There is a 4th where neither the akshara spacing nor mathrai spacing are related across switch, but i am not sure if that counts as ever kosher (?).

Nadai variations as part of the suladi saptha thala 175 family. mAthra kAlam is the same and the akshara kAla varies among the 5 variations

Maybe drs can clarify, but i didnt know that the various gatis in 175 necessarily imply same mAthra kAla and thus a khanDa gati Adi kalam's akshara spacing is 1.25 times that of catusra Adi?

I thought the rationale of 35*5 = 175 is simply that each of the tala can be rendered in different gatis, and this just meant was you had different # of mathrais per akshara. I also thought it applied more to songs which entirely remained in 1-gati as opposed to gati/nadai switches (i.e. per that reasoning your first statement above wouldnt apply to any of the flavors).

For example, Sankari Sankuru is tisra gati Adi, and is considered a different tala w.r.t a standard catusra Adi song, as per the 175. But i didnt know there were any rules/regulations w.r.t mathra spacing between the two.

But maybe i am splitting hairs over nothing

Arun

Music · Post by **Music** » 28 Aug 2006, 20:25

I have a somewhat different problem with tempo. I fully well understand what all the gati/nadai changes imply. However, when somebody is playing/singing, I find it hard to keep my talam when they:
1. switch nadais. especially nadais greater than tisram.
2. Regardless of nadai, when there are odd sequences that run across multiple beats in the talam. E.g., try these

I have used caps for deerghams, i.e. G = g,
_______________________________
Adi talam, chatusra gati:
. . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . .
G;,R-R;,S-S;,N- G;-R;-S;- GRgrsnD,-RSrsndP,-SNsndpm ll
This goes thru 2 avruttas of talam in 3rd kalam. This pattern is
(7X3) + (4X3) + (31) = 64

_______________________________
b. Adi talam, tisra nadai:
. . . . . . . . . . . .
G; R; S; N; D; - G R S N D - grsnd rsndp sndpm

15 + 10 + 15 = 40. Of this is played 3 times, it is 3X40 = 120 and ends on samam after 5 avruttas.
_______________________________

Sometimes I am fine with the talam if I really focus only on the talam. The moment I start listening to the song/taniavartanam to enjoy the pattern that is being sung/played, I lose track of my beat. It is kind of multitasking that needs practice I guess. It just doesn't come natural to me and I am sure there is a way of learning. Never was taught this aspect in music classes. Any tips/suggestions?

I have just browsed through the long thread on this topic and doesn't look like this point was addressed.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Aug 2006, 21:06

I may be well off, here, because I haven't listened to the samples ---and, tbh I don;t trust myself to keep tala accurately without any visual clue

BUT...

Changing the calculation of the tala like 7+7+7+3+8 = 32 is not changing nadai. It is changing the calculation. It will produce all kinds of off-beat tensions and resolution, hopefuly full of musical beauty (maths is one thing: to calculate and still give beauty is the art). Every korvai, or even a thiermanum is an example of this kind of calculation.

Remember that a very common pattern in adi talam songs is 3 + 3 + 2 ---Thanata Dhinata Dhina.

There is no relevance of the speed or nadai of one song to the next in a program. Each song must be taken individually. There is a tendancy for theory books and some teachers to describe 1 akshara as 1 second, as if its duration in time is fixed. It makes for a good example, and I used similar with my clock excercise illustration).

I would say that there are two kinds of nadai variation in songs. One is where the song has a section in a different nadai, and even with no attention to talam at all, anyone will hear the rhythm pattern change eg from takadimi to takita. The other is where the artist makes the change --- in palavi singing, or in kalpanaswara.

The challenge is then to fit the same chatusra rhythm over a base of three, without changing the stresses and accents.

Refer to my clock example. Try TA ka di mi TA ka juno (capital syllables are stressed) to tisra nadai:

TA ka di
mi TA ka
ju no TA
ka di mi ...and so on. The clock tick (or the clap of your hand) is on the first syallable of each line.

(Oh dear: I havn't practiced in ages, and I'm finding that hard to do...)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Aug 2006, 21:19

Sometimes I am fine with the talam if I really focus only on the talam. The moment I start listening to the song/taniavartanam to enjoy the pattern that is being sung/played, I lose track of my beat. It is kind of multitasking that needs practice I guess. It just doesn't come natural to me and I am sure there is a way of learning. Never was taught this aspect in music classes. Any tips/suggestions?

Oh I do sympathise entirely! Very much my own experience.

I've sat with my teacher and he has said, put talam for me... he then plays something complex and I get lost, and he says, don't listen to what I'm playing, just concentrate on putting talam...

I've sat with my teacher and he has said, put talam for your classmate then my talam and their playing go their separate ways, and teacher says, listen to what they playing, and understand it, and adjust which is what any mridangist will do when accompanying an artist who's talam is not perfect.

My other problem....

Among my other problems (for those who remember the Monty Python sketch)... is that my wetsern brain, despite the fact that it never learnt to play any western music, refuses to 'feel' that 7 beats can be a cycle....

Only a brain transplant can help me!

Music · Post by **Music** » 28 Aug 2006, 21:39

nick H (UK) wrote:and I get lost, and he says, don't listen to what I'm playing, just concentrate on putting talam...

I think the trick lies in what your teacher said above. But then, if you don't listen to what the artist is playing, how would you know the taniavartanam ended.
It always works though...whenever I have total concentration on the talam, I am totally fine.

Changing the calculation of the tala like 7+7+7+3+8 = 32 is not changing nadai. It is changing the calculation. It will produce all kinds of off-beat tensions and resolution, hopefuly full of musical beauty (maths is one thing: to calculate and still give beauty is the art). Every korvai, or even a thiermanum is an example of this kind of calculation.

Yes, very true. And that is where it becomes a challenge to keep the talam. It may not be musical all the times. However, I think a student/artist should have the ability to keep the talam despite the off-beat tensions and resolution. Helps to cultivate a good time sense.

Just to clarify: The 2 examples I listed above are to illustrate cases of odd sequences running across multiple beats of talam. There is no nadai change within each example. I have heard good artists sing/play these.

I wish I could sing them to show what I mean. I dare not, since I can't keep the talam. Is anybody out there able to keep the talam for these examples? Doesn't matter whether it is vocal/mridangam/any other instrument.

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 28 Aug 2006, 23:39

Hi all,

Laya is Discipline.. and if a man is able to control time he is THE MASTER. everything in this world changes with time except time itself which is a constant,similarly LAYAM is a constant. i am able to understand the problems, but my solution to this would be to try practising konnakol, and try to put the talam in the legs... if it is not possible mentally... Unfortunately there are no techniques for these and even if there r i dont think guru's will teach them.. becoz they are actually tailor made..

I feel it is quite possible to put talam independently in the legs.. what i mean is that leg can work at a pace which is not dependent on the hands pace, and thereby constant speed of talam can be ensured.

And any new korvai i usually calculate the aksharas rather than trying to put the talam and confusing the edam...

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 29 Aug 2006, 03:37

Coolkarni Sir,

Would you happen to have a recording of TRS Mama singing vENugAnalOluni (tyAgarAjA, kEdAragauLa)? If so, I am almost sure he will present a very nice illustration of change of naDais in the caraNa sAhityA, "vikasita pankaja vadanalu vividha gatula nADaga"...

Ashwin

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Sep 2006, 12:18

The Natural "Tapping Foot"

I'm reminded by the comment about keeping talam with the leg...

They talk about music making people tap their feet --- and it often seems to me that my feet have an unconcious (to me) rhythm sense! Sometimes my hands and fingers have lost count, almost lost the beat, and I notice that my foot or toe is still twitching in time with with the music.

As for the technique of aquiring these abilities...

Hint no. 1 from my teacher is put the talam hard beat your leg until it is red! He says that this is the way to get the awareness into your body, into your nerves. This of course, is for out-of-concert practice :rolleyes:

Hint No two... is the offbeat excercises, saying the lessons and putting talam.

Hint No three --- one of mine --- is to move the hand almost like a western conducter, up and down, smoothly, up being half a beat, down being half a beat. It is much easier to immitate the clockwork, waving-arm type metronome than to imitate an electronic flashing light metronome. The latter needs its laya sense already programmed in!

Music: keeping talam when the rhythms are off beat is what the problem is all about! I think almost anyone can move their hand to a simple on-beat rhythm....

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 02 Sep 2006, 12:27

Ahwin
You touched an old wound there .
Kedaragowla -with TRS- is featured in only one of the tapes, but the recording stops abruptly with the alapana...
Maybe venkatpv has it !!

and since this thread has gone some distance without a track , here is one ,on this subject..

http://rapidshare.de/files/31656272/mdr-tnk-pmi.mp3
mdr singing sogasuga mridanga thalamu

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 02 Sep 2006, 17:46

coolkarni, have you uploaded the alapana you speak of?

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 02 Sep 2006, 18:04

I'd just been skimming through all these discussions. They are so informative, so useful & so helpful!!

Though it might be a bit late, I owe a very special "thank you" to arunk & vasanthakokilam. Simultaneously, I think you've both learnt more in the process, while consciously/unconsciously helping and clarifying (and sometimes confusing

) a lot of things for people like myself. It's like a Q/A section, with questions relying on answers and vice versa. Thank you both!!

Similarly, I wish to thank Nick H (UK) and Music, and others who contributed, participated or helped before then.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 02 Sep 2006, 18:12

no.
i will put it up on the trs thread later

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 02 Sep 2006, 18:26

cheers coolkarni.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Sep 2006, 00:53

This village idiot is still gaping at the cofectionery of laya. Cheers to VK for his knowledge and patience, Arunk for his eagerness and persistence, and to all the tALA experts and aspirants.
Nick, ain't bad for a western brain (as you put it) to contribute to the thread to this extent. After all, you were brought up on John Cleese's ministry of walk--naDai:)
Coolji, A proper jamakkALam man--ready to wind up (a thread) but won't leave before handing out treats!
Thank you all!
Thinking of getting a metronome...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Sep 2006, 01:55

And mainly thanks to DRS for his demo which provided the basis for the discussion and the eventual resolution/classification.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Sep 2006, 02:12

And I thought I had thanked sarva vyApi srIkAnthA in this thread too! mea culpa...

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 03 Sep 2006, 10:58

I just realised I don't understand Hint 2, nick H. Saying the lessons?

Hint 1 is really quite good, painful, but worth it

Just watch out that you're not slapping your thights on completely the wrong beat, or you might just always do that

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Sep 2006, 20:44

Sorry. Clarrification:

Hint number one refers to while listening to music

Hint number two refers to while saying mridangam lessons --- or, to the vocalists, I guess it refers to while singing!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Sep 2006, 20:45

Arasi... that's Ministry of Silly Walks!

14 · Post by 14 » 11 Sep 2006, 11:56

try this ...have seens quite a few ppl use this ...

http://www.kalakendar.com/product_info. ... 1dc88e1ea2

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 14 Oct 2006, 15:32

Dear Chi. Naaree, Only recently I have joined this organization and only today I have gone through your post. Having recently started, I think, presently you must be learning Varnas. Even before starting the Saralee-svaras the music teacher has to test you to assess the level of your Laya-instinct and start the required Laya-exercises first. Generally, present-day music teachers are not bothered at all to do all these things. The basics for making Svarakalpana and Ragalapana should be started right from the 1st day you start music. Now-a-days, all the teachers are teaching more number of Varnas and Kritis but not much of Svarakalpana or Ragalapana. CanÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t help! As per your own statement, your inconsistency in Laya obviously reveals that your Laya-instinct has not been tested and the required Laya-exercises are not taught at all. OK. Many of our musicians may not agree with me but Metronome is a must for all the musicians. Since my younger days I have been the follower of Shri M.S.Gopalakrishnan, the Great. 40 years back he ordered me ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“Never take out the Violin without MetronomeÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ and I have meticulously followed it in letter and spirit. You also do it and it helps you a lot. One of my students manufactures most reliable electronic musical instruments and supplies at low prices. He manufactured an electronic Metronome which costs $30/- each (mailing charges extra). 9 Talas, Rupaka, Trisra-rupaka, Chapu, Adi (medium-tempo), Adi (slow-tempo), Khanda-triputa (slow-tempo), Mishra-jhampa (slow-tempo), Khanda-ata (slow-tempo) and Single-beat are provided in this machine. 95 speeds are also provided in this machine. If you need it, e-mail your residential address to me immediately and, if possible, I shall try to send it to you. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.

naaree wrote:I have recently started to learn CM. While rendering krithis, my tempo seems to be very inconsistent, usually picking up speed . Is there any device that can help (visually or thru audible beats) me in improving this situation. I am only aware of the metronome's available in the market that are able to handle adi talam. Are there any other devices that help with rupakam and other chapu thalams? Any input into this will be of great help.

Thanks in advance

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 14 Oct 2006, 20:51

Dear member gsn, There is an easy method to understand, remember and follow in rendering Jatis of different values of units in a particular Gati. (Jati means a group of Mridangam syllables such as ta-ki-ta (Trisra-jati) of 3-units, ki-ta-ta-ka or ta-ka-dhi-mi (Chaturashra-jati) of 4-units, ta-ka-ta-ki-ta or ta-dhi-gi-na-ta (Khanda-jati) of 5-units and so on and Jaati means the number of Kriyas to be reckoned for Laghu such as 3 Kriyas for Trisra-jaati, 4 Kriyas for Chaturashra-jaati, 5 Kriyas for Khanda-jaati and so on.
Now, as per the easy method, 4 jatis of a particular value of units in Chaturashra-gati and 3 jatis of the same value of units in Trisra-gati, both fit in the equal number of Kriyas of the same value of units. For example, 4 Trisra-jatis amounting to (4 x 3 ) 12-units in Chaturashra-gati and 3 Trisra-jatis amounting to (3 x 3 ) 9-units in Trisra-gati, both fit in 3 Kriyas. The same thing applies to all other Jatis. Please try and propagate. amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 15 Oct 2006, 05:32

Dear moderator, Mr. Vasanthakokilam, Would you please modify chathusra as Chaturashra or Chathurashra, thisra as Trisra, kanda as Khanda, misra as Mishra. Aksharam is part of a Kriya and thus 3 aksharas per Kriya indicates Trisra-gati, 4 Aksharas Chaturashra-gati, 5 Aksharas Khanda-gati, 7 Aksharas Mishra-gati and so on. Please mind the difference between Akshara, which is a single unit, and a Kriya, which is a manual act, whether it be a sounded beat or a soundless waving-hand.
And Matra, as defined by Sharngadeva in his Sangita Ratnakara-5.16 and in turn by the internationally reputed musicologist, Prof. R.Sathyanarayana of Mysore – The unit time for reckoning Kaala is Maatra, In order to accommodate elastic use and subjective variation, the Maatra is given in Shastra a flexible definition 1) the maatra is taken as the total duration of uttering the five short syllables ‘ka-cha-ta-tha-pa’. This value is adopted in Maarga-talas. Since Laghu (short) syllables are involved, the span is called Laghu. This also is approximately of the duration of a second. 2) it is equated to ‘Nimeshakaala’ i.e., the time required to close and open the eyes naturally. This is taken roughly equal to a second and so Maatra roughly corresponds to objective duration of a second.
This is for the kind information to all musicians and music lovers. amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 15 Oct 2006, 05:48

Dear member, nick H, Please refer to the 80th post of this thread and also the 15th post of the thread 'constructing kalpana svaras' of General discussions in respect of the different varieties carrying 16-units each . amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 15 Oct 2006, 06:08

Dear member, nick H, Please refer to the 26th post of the thread 'my son adityamohan' and, if you are a Mridangam player, to become proficient in Laya, along with the exercises furnished in the above post, practise Sankeerna-gati also with the breaks of Trisra, Chaturashra, Khanda and Mishra-jatis
strictly along with a Metronome only. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 15 Oct 2006, 06:20

Dear member, vigneshbal, True. There are techniques to become proficient in Laya but, as you wrote, people are not ready to part with them. I too had many bitter experiences in my life. But, I am extremely fortunate enough to be guided by the Almighty in so many ways. That is why I have taken the propagation of the musical knowledge as a mission of my life.
I shall suggest you to refer the 81st & 82nd posts addressed to our brother-member, Mr. nick H, of this thread and follow them. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 15 Oct 2006, 06:39

Dear member, arasi, If you are thinking of getting a Metronome please refer to the 78th post of this thread in which I have funished the details of a Metronome for a brother-member. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 23 Oct 2006, 04:06

Dear member, Music, Yes. There are tips not to miss Tala . Laya is instinctive. Everybody have the Laya-instinct. As all know, to get a pass in any examination, the percentage of marks is between 35% and 100%, but, the level of efficiency in the subject of a candidate is decided by how much nearer the candidate is to 100% and this applies to everything in our life. In the same manner, if we know the level of Laya-instinct of a candidate between the 35% and 100%, this level can be increased by some suitable Laya-exerecises. There are different kinds of tests to assess the level of the Laya-instinct of a candidate. I shall elaborate them serially hereunder. You please try and find which one you are able to make and which one you are not.

1. An aspirant should listen to the instrumental music and render the Laya-beats following the teacher who renders the even and odd beats of Chaturashra-gati or nadai uttering aloud ki-ta-ta-ka or ta-ka-dhi-mi @ 4-units per Kriya per second, which is the duration of Maathra-kaala. This is the Laya-test to which the aspirant should, at the first instance, be exposed. If he passes through this Laya-test then he should be tested of his Shruti-instinct. Unless he passes through the Laya-test successfully he should not be taught music even though he has the Shruti-instinct.

2. The candidate should be able to render the 3rd degree of the Jati-alankara and the Svara-alankara of Ata and Triputa-talas successfully in Eka-kala i.e., @ 4-units per Kriya per second.

3. The candidate should be able to start with ki-ta-ta-ka or ta-ka-dhi-mi of 4-units and end with ta-dhi-gi-na-ta or ta-ka-ta-ki-ta of 5-units at the end of each Avarta of Adi-tala of Chaturashra-gati in Eka-kala i.e., @ 4-units per Kriya per second.

4. The candidate should be able to start with ki-ta-ta-ka or ta-ka-dhi-mi of 4-units and end with ta-dhi-gi-na-ta or ta-ka-ta-ki-ta of 5-units at the end of each Avarta of Adi-tala of Chaturashra-gati in Dvi-kala i.e., @ 8-units per Kriya per 2 seconds.

5. The candidate should be able to start with only one ta-dhi-gi-na-ta of 5-units in the beginning of the Avarta of Trisra-rupaka and as many numbers of ki-ta-ta-ka-s or ta-ka-dhi-mi-s of 4-units only as he can in the 2nd degree of speed.

6. The candidate should be able to start with only one taa-dhee-gi-na-ta of 7-units in the beginning of the Avarta of Trisra-triputa-tala and as many numbers of ki-ta-ta-ka-s or ta-ka-dhi-mi-s of 4-units only as he can.

7. The candidate should be able to render the Jati-alankara or the Svara-alankara of Ata and Triputa-talas @ 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 8-units per each Kriya in Maatra-kaala i.e., @ 4-units per Kriya per second. Among the above a Laya-vidwan need not render the Svara-alankaras at all. But, in addition to the above, he should be able to render the Jati-alankara of Ata and Triputa-talas @ 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8-units per each Kriya in Maatra-kaala i.e., @ 4-units per Kriya per second.

All these tests should be made along with rhythm of Metronome only. amsharma.

Music · Post by **Music** » 20 Nov 2006, 07:06

Sri MSSharma,
The tests described in your last message definitely look useful. However, I don't know if it is just my computer, I am not able to read any of the jatis in your last post.

Here is how I am seeing it:

msakella wrote:1. An aspirant should listen to the instrumental music and render the Laya-beats following the teacher who renders the even and odd beats of Chaturashra-gati or nadai uttering aloud ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“ki-ta-ta-kaÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ or ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“ta-ka-dhi-miÃƒÂ¢ amsharma.

Same case with the rest of the jatis in the post. Can someone pls. help?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 20 Nov 2006, 11:14

Yes - I have the same problem reading the jatis.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 21 Nov 2006, 09:33

Dear members, mohan and music, Feel extremely sorry for the thing happened. I too do not why and how it happened. I returned to my home for a very short stay and tonight again leaving for Kurnool and Bangalore to return back on 1st Dec. After my return I shall again try to give the details. Thanking you, amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 21 Nov 2006, 09:35

I am very much beholden to the affectionate response of my brother-members towards my last posting. In my own State of Andhra Pradesh I generally give Lec-dems or Workshops in Telugu language only which cannot be followed by non-Telugus. However, as per the suggestion of my brother-member, I shall definitely try to make a video or, at the least, an audio recordings of my lec-dems in English to be held in other States and, possibly, arrange for up-loading.
I am planning to start from Hyderabad on 15th evening and arrive at Chennai in the morning on 16th itself to demonstrate the unique Electronic-automatic-tambura in the Music Academy, Chennai in the morning at 9-30 a.m. on 17-12-2006. I am thinking to start back on 18th. amsharma.

girish · Post by **girish** » 21 Nov 2006, 21:26

Pertaining to nada bedham,
In my opinion ,nada bedham is change of the mathrais inside an aksharam without changing the time intraval for each aksharam.to be more clear ,let us look into an example,start putting the adi talam by reciting (tha ka dhi mi) for each aksharam.Then
without changing the speed of the tala recite (tha ki ta ) for each aksharam.Naturally u would slow down the kalapramanam of ur reciting.since u would have to distribute the 3 units Thakita in place of earlier 4 units thakadimi .thus nada bedham is the change of kalapramana inside a thalam.
Adi tala has 8 bests with 4 mathrai for each summingup to(8*4).32 matrai in chatusra nadai.in thisra nadai each aksharam will have 3 mathrai with (3*8) 24 matrais in total .thus the length of the talam reduces aparently.
correct me if my opinion is wrong.Thank u.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Nov 2006, 18:21

(msakella... it is nice to see you back here)

Girish, I am confused by your post. You are correct to say that the change from chatusra to tisra is made by counting three tisra pulses in the time of four chatusra pulses (one akshara).

I am confused when you speak of the tala reducing in length. It does not reduce or increase in duration --- the time taken for one tala cycle remaining constant, as does the time of one akshara.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 22 Nov 2006, 20:51

actually, when going from chatusram to tisram (esp. tisram lower speed, 3 per beat), there will be a noticeable change in the kalapramanam. That is why the vocalist or main artist must know how to adjust the thalam when they hear the mrudangist play tisram like that during the thani. Chatusratisram, in its simplest form, is playing tisram at the same speed as you were saying chatusram before, without any change in speed.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 22 Nov 2006, 21:07

This confusion seems to haunt this thread. As far as i understand , the total duration of the tala remains the same irrespective of the nadai. If you take say 8 seconds to complete 1 cyle of a talam, it remains at 8 sec throught the song irrespective of the nadai.

girish · Post by **girish** » 22 Nov 2006, 22:23

Iam sorry for confucing u all.Let me try to make myself clear.In chatusra nadai we have (8*4) 32 mathai for one cycle. In thisra nadai there will be (8*3) 24 mathrai for one cycle.we can see the no. of mathrais getting reduced.
Now let me take to another arguement,
*.In thisra nadai we divide the the total 24 mathais as 3 per each beat thus making eight 3s(or) eight (tha ki ta)to complete one cycle.
*.Instead of that I have seen many vidvans playing an 8 mathai sollu 3times.(i.e.)when we say a 8 mathrai sollu (say, tha ka dhi mi tha ka ja nu ) 3 times in the same thisra kalapramanam we make (8 thrice) 24.
In chatusra nadai(8*4) we have to say the 8mathrai sollu 4times (8*4) making the total 32 mathai.
when we analyse the 2 cases,(in adi talam with same 8 aksharams
1. 4 times 8 mathrais in chatusra nadai(4*8 making 32)
2. 3 times 8 mathrai in thisra nadai (3*8 making 24)
The no. of times we repeat reduces from 4 times to 3 times.
Eventhough the duration of tala remains the same the talam reduces in terms of the mathrai counts.
Acounting for rajumds,arguement it takes only 8sec in both cases.Let my use an analogy,in 8 hrs u would cover 24km with 3km/hr speed but in the the same 8 hrs u can cover 32km with aspeed of 4km/hr. u cover more distance in the same intreval of time.similarly u can have 24 mathrai for 8 aksharams in thisra nadai and 32 mathrai for 8 aksharamsin chatusra nadai.thus u cover more mathrais in chatusra nadai than thisra nadai.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Nov 2006, 22:00

Whist I can't argue with that, I do find it unnecessarily complicated!

But what matters is that the explanation clicks for each person, however they prefer to understand it.

How about a gearbox analogy: Change gear and the car covers the same ground at the same speed, but with the engine running faster or slower? ---not sure, just throwing this into the pot if anyine can do anything with it.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 02 Dec 2006, 17:01

Dear members, mohan & music, Due to some kind of virus some un-wanted letters intruded in between the matter written by me and they are â€˜ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÃ‹Å“â€™ , ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÃ¢â€žÂ¢ & ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šâ€™. You can conveniently omit these things and read the matter to follow it. Please try and inform me. If you donâ€™t get even after that, and if you send me your e-mail address I shall send the matter by e-mail. Ever yours, amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 02 Dec 2006, 17:04

Dear member, Girish, At the first instance the duration of â€˜Mathraâ€™ is almost equal to a second. This has been made very clear by Sharngadeva in his Sangita Ratnakara. He described that the duration occupying to utter five short syllables, â€˜ka-cha-ta-tha-paâ€™, which is almost equal to a second, is called â€˜Mathraâ€™. And, in this duration, rendering of 3 units or syllables or Aksharas is called â€™Thrisraâ€™, 4 units is called Chaturashra, 5 units Khanda, 6 units Divya-sankeerna, 7 units Mishra, 8 units Mishra-sankeerna, 9 units Sankeerna, 10 units Deshya-sankeerna, 12 units Mishra-deshya-sankeerna and 16 units Deshya-shuddha-sankeerna. Irrespective of the number of units the duration should not change at all. What our brother members, nick H and rajumds wrote in their posts in this connection is correct. Please follow it . amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 02 Dec 2006, 17:05

Dear members, arulguna & mohan, After returning from my trip, today again I spoke to Mr. Sadgurucharan and requested him to give you the details of â€˜Pancha-mukhiâ€™.amsharma.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 04 Dec 2006, 14:57

Sir
there are sample loops available for all the talas in the following website : http://www.angelfire.com/mb/mridhangam . you can just download a sample loop and play it using any looping software continuously. it has got Adhi, Rupaka, Misrachaapu, Khandachaapu, Sankeernachaapu, Tisratriputa, Khandatriputa and Misrajampa taalas. These are the talas in which most of the compositions have been composed. you can modify Rupaka Tala in any of the audio editors and reduce the time limit to get Adi Tala tisra nadai as a loop for singing kritis like Birana vara or Sankari Sanguru etc.
JB

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 11 Dec 2006, 10:35

Sharmaji and others The "Mukhi" talas were essentially an invention of Dr.Balamuralikrishna (if i am right). They are really a great providing ample scope for laya buffs to explore the rhythmic beauty and also provides challenge and requires utmost concentration throughout the rendition of the pallavi. There are Four "Mukhi Talas"
Tisra Mukhi, Khanda Mukhi, Misra Mukhi and Sankeerna Mukhi. I have heard Dr.Balamuralikrishna Render a Pallavi in Khanda Mukhi Tala. All the Mukhi Talas have some thing in common. For example all are set to Adhi Tala base only. That is one laghu and two drutams. Secondly based on the Jaati that is whether it is Tisra, Khanda, Misra or Sankeerna the First Beat of the Laghu, the arudi (which is also the starting point for the first drutam), and the another clap in the second drutam becomes tisra or khanda or misra or sankeerna. to simplify all the clap points in Adi Tala are changed in Nadai of tisra, khanda, misra and sankeerna. other that is finger counts and waves remain in Chatusra Nadai only irrespective of which mukhi tala it is. tisra muki means tisra nadai (as it is put for kritis like Beerana vara leechi bro in kalyani or sankari sanguru chandramukhi in Saveri) khanda mukhi means khanda chaapu tala (as it is used for gurulekha yetuvanti in gowri manohari) misra mukhi means misra chaapu (as it is used for manasu swadhinamai - shankarabharanam) and sankeernamukhi means sankeerna chaapu (thaka dhimi -two claps and one khandachaapu- dont know any kritis in sankeernachaapu). Hope i am clear in explanation. Apart from Dr.M.Balamuralikrishna i have heard Dr.Ganesh sing one pallavi in Panchamukhi tala which is quite interesting and quite enjoyable.