A novice question

[shankar47119]

Hello,
I'm an utter novice trying to better understand some basics; no background at all in Carnatic.
Pls pardon the naivete of the question.
(I'm cutting and pasting the lyrics portions and the raga sequence descriptions, required below in my question, from other websites)

My specific question is the following:
When we listen to a krithi, and note that it is in a raga, say, shanmukhapriya, is there a mapping between the words (syllables) that make up the stanzas in the krithi, and the swara-sequence description of the raga?

Example:
Krithi: the "Ketu" krithi from navagraha krithis of Dikshithar
It reads:
rAga: shanmukhapriyA (cAmaram) / tAla: rUpaka

mahAsuraM ketum ahaM bhajAmi chAyagrahavaram ..... (and so on...)

Shanmukhapriya swara-sequence goes:
56 shanmugapriyA mela
Aa: S R2 G2 M2 P D1 N2 S
Av: S N2 D1 P M2 G2 R2 S

So my question then is:
Is there a mapping from say, {S R2 G2 M2 P D1 N2 S} to appropriate words/syllables that make up the song?
i.e. the words/syllables in: mahAsuraM ketum ahaM bhajAmi chAyagrahavaram .....
i.e. if say, "S" maps to say "ma" in the word mahAsuraM, then the "ma" in mahAsuraM is sung at the frequency of S.
likewise, if "S" maps to "ma", then does R2 map to "hA" in mahAsuraM, and so on?

So if the Krithi is fully notated, will we see "S" above "ma", R2 above "hA", G2 above "su" and so on?
Am I even making sense?

It always confuses me that when a Raga is described, it is described in terms of sa, ri, ga, ma...
But the words/syllables in the song have all sorts of other syllables, like sha, ka, bha, etc.
So is the mapping is a frequency mapping, as asked above?

pranaam,
shankar

[arunk]

shankar,

not quite. Yes in that if the ma in mahAsuram maps to sa, then it is indeed sung in the pitch of sa. But it does not imply that the next swara must be ri and then ga etc.

The arohana/avarohana of
S R2 G2 M2 P D1 N2 S
S N2 D1 P M2 G2 R2 S
here implies that you can both ascend or descend from any of those 7 swaras (i.e. S R2 G2 M2 P D1 N2).

A more generic rule is: If a swara appears in arohana, then it means that one can ascend FROM it. If a swara appears in avarohana, it means that one can descend FROM it.

It does not mean for shanmukhapriya, that after S one MUST have R2, which MUST be followed by G2. While you can indeed have S R2 G2 (i.e. sa ri ga) like you state, you can also have sa ri sa or sa ri ga ma ga ri etc. But the order of swaras in the aro/avaro is indeed "in general" followed. So from sa if you are ascending (in pitch), you are most of the time going to go ri in shanmukhapriya. Similarly after ma, if you are descending in shanmukhapriya, you are most of of the time descend to ga. But like sa-ri-sa, and ri-ga-ri, sa-ri-ga-ma-ga-ri etc. the patterns can be zig-zag and quite diverse. You can also have "jumps" like say ni-ga-ri, or ma-ni-da etc. also do happen. But in all these the generic rule above is followed (there are of course ragas that defy being defined as a strict structure - they are more phrase oriented)

Arun

[seldnplan]

hi shankar--the syllables in the lyrics of a song don't necessarily have any relationship with the 'frequencies' at which they're sung, and knowing them will most probably tell you nothing about the melody unless you actually hear the song or see its notation somewhere. once you know the melody you can then superimpose the lyrics to perfect the song's structure.

of course now i'll have to define what i mean by notation: simply put it's a way of communicating the progression of frequencies that determines the melody of the song. in indian traditional music, this is done using the syllables sa ri ga ma, etc. each of these syllables, in the context of a given raga, will denote a specific frequency (or, more generally, a musical idea) to the musician. what one does is first fix a frequency, and then declare that sa maps to this frequency.

let's take an example: we'll fix sa at the frequency corresponding to middle C on the piano (if i remember correctly, this is 440 Hz). now say i'm looking at the notation of a song in shanmukhapriya and say in its notation i find the syllables ni dha pa ma ga ma pa. since i know the arohanam/avarohanam of shanmukhapriya, i know what frequencies each of the syllables denotes. explicitly, sa = C, ri = D, ga = E-flat, ma = F-sharp, pa = G, dha = G-sharp, ni = A-sharp. i could go play this on the piano now: A-sharp (or B-flat) G-sharp G F-sharp E-flat F-sharp G--and it will sound something like shanmukhapriya.

if, on the other hand, i were looking at the same phrase but in a composition that i know is in a different raga, say, mayamalavagaula, then i would instead interpret the same phrase ni dha pa ma ga ma pa as B G-sharp G F E F G; in kalyani, it would be B A G F-sharp E F-sharp G; in kharaharapriya, B-flat A G F E-flat F G. so the interpretation of the sa-ri-ga-ma syllables is entirely contextual.

long story short, the lyrics have no connection with the melody (at least not at this basic level), and the melody is broadly determined by its sa-ri-ga-ma notation whose interpretation is dependent on the raga being employed.

[nigamaa]

re quote
„middle C on the piano if i remember correctly, this is 440 Hz“

hello all here,
pls reconsider this for the benefit of many music researcher
I will put arguements in brackets

1) ancient practise we do not know at full at present yet
but for oldest known read
Oldest flute sound
Roberto Velázquez Cabrera
First version June 2000, Last actualization September 30, 2001
http://www.geocities.com/rvelaz.geo/china/china.html

the pitch was very close to modern piano, in fact minor 3rd or Sa Ga
was established to have been the same as today
you may listen to musicfiles at link at
Brookhaven Lab Expert Helps Date Flute Thought to be Oldest Playable Musical Instrument
Bone flute found in China at 9,000-year-old Neolithic site
http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/1999 ... 92299.html

2) theory on indian absolute pitch is uncertain, instruments were
tuned upon individual pitches traditionally
but since there was orchestration mentioned in Bharata Natya Shastra
perhaps there was absolute pitch used sometimes?

3) absolute pitches are used nowadays worldwide as follows, most nations agree to piano A4 = 440 Hz and one gets it even from the phone to tune instruments, keyboards have it anyhow

A4= 440 Hz that gives values of
C 4 : 261.63 Hz
Cis 4 (oder Des 4) : 277.18 Hz
D 4 : 293.66 Hz
Dis 4 (oder Es 4) : 311.13 Hz
E 4 : 329.63 Hz
F 4 : 349.23 Hz
Fis 4 (oder Ges 4) : 369.99 Hz
G 4 : 392 Hz
Gis 4 (oder As 4) : 415.3 Hz
A 4 : 440 Hz
Ais 4 (oder B 4) : 466.16 Hz
H 4 : 493.88 Hz

This is actually cosmic since 1 Hz = 1 vibration per 1 second
1 second is defined as part of a rotation of the earth around the sun, part of 24 hours and so on

4) from study of earliest indian music sources I find that Ni = C key of piano, thus the white keys would provide Sa Grama.

If one considers these 4 points one finds that ancient indian music notation was one with ancient western, perhaps worldwide the same.

This is just a short abstract to show some considerations of fixing Sarigama to the b/w keyboard

Pls feel free to post your point of view?

[seldnplan]

hi nigamaa--you're absolutely right: it's the A above middle C that's 440 Hz.

as for the rest of your post, i'm not really convinced absolute pitch values are useful in carnatic music, where everything is relative to the fixed tonic, which can be anywhere the tambura can be tuned to. what you say is interesting from a historical perspective, but to use that to prescribe and strait-jacket how present day music should be played is pure folly.

[shankar47119]

thanks a lot for the replies.
A follow-up question:
A composer writes a song, and sets it to a certain Raga. The song is essentially a sequence of syllables. Is this view of a song/composition okay?
The "ketu" krithi, being the sequence:
mahAsuraM ketum ahaM bhajAmi chAyagrahavaram .....
"ma", "hA", "su", "raM", "ke", "tu"....
When a musician sings a composition to a raga, do they take the above view, i.e. break the song into syllables and hit different frequencies at different syllables, to render the composition in the said raga?

Does the composer also write down (for the singer, who needs this information) which syllables in the song correspond to which swaras of the Raga, being consistent with Arohana, avarohana sequences of the raga, with zig-zags, jumps, etc., as explained by ArunK?

Very grateful to this forum and your replies,
Pranaam.

[ganesh_mourthy]

hi shankar,
i think you are in a phase that i had been through. but if you are too interested you coudl take up an instrument and learn . that is the best for you . explanations with words is always abstract. yet i think our fellow members have been trying their level best to educate you. I appreciate their interest to intiate.

I am still figuring out what help i can be of to you as your questions are not completely naive. I woudl say it is advance naivete.

[nigamaa]

Hi seldnplan,

The advantages of an absolute pitch are too numerous to be considered here, alone the amount of time and energy used in individual tunings of musical instruments is so high, that if anyone would have to pay wages for it- he would revise his view immediately. In future decades when musical labour will have to be paid according to international wage standards, you will find the system of individual pitch become obselete or the audience go broke, which is unlikely. I love traditions but I also break with them if needed.

Hi shankar47119,

I often encountered such questions, I think the answers are only individually valid since no unified notation system exists in CM like say in western music. There are software applications like capella scan, where you put the western notation sheet on the scanner and you get the music processed as song or mp3 file, I am not aware how indian music could work this way. In indian manuscripts like Sangita Ratnakara, the syllable of the lyric is written to the notation of sarigama, so instead of singing/playing sa one uses the syllable of the lyric. A few other parametres are given in these texts, but they do not appear in the notation. That means you cannot scan them immediately like western notation.I would be looking foreward to a software that can process these parameters and finally fix some 3D elements like classical dance gestures to it. This might sound fantastic, but considering the avatars in virtual reality worlds like Second Life, one day soon there will be bharat natyam avatars coming up ( and for sale there). This way there would be a method for traditional dance in the ancient concept of sangeeth: vocal, instrument and dance are one and not to be separated.

One learns by experimenting?

[arunk]

nigamaa - as far as I know, there is no evidence in any of the Indian texts (natyasastra, dattilam, brhaddesi, sangitaratnakara, svamelakalanidhi etc.) about use of absolute pitch nor for much orchestration. In fact, I believe you wont even find evidence of the drone/tampura in these. That came later.

While standard pitches are indeed very convenient for orchestration, in carnatic music concerts you have about 3-4 instruments (including main vocalist) to tune together. Does not take that much time. Even now, it will not be suprising to find out that many concerts are sung/played at pitch which are in-between standard pitches.

IIRC,the use of western frequencies as a standard came about mainly after some British influence and the use of harmonium as an accompaniment.

Arun

[shankar47119]

thanks ganesh.
Background-wise, I have listened to a few CD's and seem to enjoy listening to the vocals. i also did some reading on the web, from docs such as the Karnatic Primer, to get some basic feel for how to understand a raga.

Much of my confusion is centered around:
How does a singer sing a song in a said raga?
From ArunK's/seldnplan's gracious explanations, I understood that relative-pitch-wise: the syllables in a song can follow the sequence/any-sub-sequence of Arohanam/avarohanam, as well as some zig-zags/jumps, as explained in ArunK's reply, and these depend on which song we are talking about.
So I was wondering if the composer composes a song in a said Raga, does he also actually write down how the singer should ideally sing the song: i.e. which sequence/sub-sequence/zig-zag/jumps of the raga's swaras (relative-pitch-wise), and importantly, which portions in the lyrics correspond to these sequence/sub-sequence/zig-zag/jumps of the raga's swaras (relative-pitch-wise).

pranaam

[cmlover]

shankar
there is no one-one correspondence between the syllables of the lyric as well as the notes in the music. The music is time limited and the raga as well as taaLa dictate the duration of the notes. One may squeeze in one or more syllables of the lyric within each of these notes according to the structure of the melody. For example the same lyric can be sung in different ragas and the pronunciation will be quite different w.r.t to the sequence of the words. It is the vowels in the lyric that mostly do the job and the consonants are just incidental. Sometime singers mull over or change the consonants to accommodate the note (but they are not guilty of killing the lyric , though some get excited on that score!).

[arunk]

Yes shankar. "Setting a tune/melody to a song" simply implies assigning swaras to the various syllables of the song (this assignment is as per raga lakshana and lakshya - i.e. as per raga rules and emotive characteristcs). Note however that each syllable can translate to many swaras in cm and those swaras themselves in general are not rendered flat and straight (i.e. a single pitch). In CM, swaras are usually tied to each other and thus may involve continous pitch transitions between them, and also have local variations in pitch - all these are due to "gamakas".

A composer whose is a "vaggeyakara" implying one who sets the lyrics AND tune, does lay these down. However, IMO CM has a large interpretive portion where each singer takes some (but varying) liberties with the song he/she learns. So you end with variations of the original intended tune - so much so that it is difficult to say which is the original . But all these variations are indeed done based on personal interpretation of the raga lakshana and lakshya.

Seemingly simple questions for which answers seem detailed and complex. Sorry !

Arun

[shankar47119]

Thank you so much, Arun.
I feel at some amount of ease, reading the responses.

I did a lot of googling to see if I might find a song/krithi, whose tune has been completely defined.
Completely, as in, indicating a composer-suggested mapping, relative-pitch-wise, from the lyrics/syllables to the swaras of the krithi's Raga.
But honestly, I didn't find any such material on the web.
Most sites simply say along-side the title, which Raga, and present the Arohanam/avarohanam sequence of the Raga, and say nothing about the above-described mapping.
Then I stumbled on this site, and decided to try my luck in this forum for this confusion in my understanding.

Pranaam.

[arunk]

The notation scheme of CM is not 100% unambigious representative of the underlying melody. The huge difficulty is that the pitch inflexions associated with gamakas are innumerable and sort of hard to represent (atleast no one has come up with one that I guess had enough good things that everyone accepted). So learning a krithi from notation and expecting it to be 100% equal to the tune that the person who came with the notation intended is not possible. While many people can indeed get most of the tune (based on their knowledge of the raga and thus knowledge of how to render a particular swara in a particular context of the raga), I am not sure they can always get it 100% right. They will get it pretty close though - enough for it to be a pretty good reproduction. Again this is due to the above hurdle. Hence CM is still very much suited mainly for transfer of knowledge via direct interaction - i .e. learning from a guru.

There are supposedly official versions. For example, most (almost all) people believe that the notations in SSP (sangita sampradaya pradarshini) has the notation for the official version of the Dikshitar krithis contained there-in. Atleast it is accepted that if Subbarama Dikshitar was alive today, how he sings/plays a krithi would be pretty much what Muttuswamy Dikshtar composed. But if one were to interpret those notations today (and they are pretty elaborate and some argue the best format) can we reproduce the original tune exactly? Some believe and some dont.

Unlike perhaps western music, CM is harder in terms of fault-proof knowledge transfer. At least till today

Arun

[ganesh_mourthy]

hi shankar, let this thread keep going . but you could contact me in the address ganesh.mourthy@rediffmail.com where by i can try to help you over voip or someother means. generally these are more easier to explain in person . person to person , by voice. but when person to person may not be possible at least voice helps, .what can be explained in many pages can be explianed in few minutes vocally.since this is all about sounds. but of course I woudl also advice you to imbibe the valuable inputs of our fellow members in tandem.

cheers

[nigamaa]

Hi Arun,

Re: nigamaa - as far as I know, there is no evidence in any of the Indian texts (natyasastra, dattilam, brhaddesi, sangitaratnakara, svamelakalanidhi etc.) about use of absolute pitch nor for much orchestration


I posted a reply at History of CM
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4560