what is a vivaadi raga?

[natasha]

explanation pls?

[mohan]

As far as I understand, a Vivadi raga is one that has two very close note pairs such as:

R1 & G1 or
R3 & G3 or
D1 & N1 or
D3 & N3

There is an excellent article available at http://www.carnaticdarbar.com/views_01.htm

[vasanthakokilam]

In simplistic terms ( as I understand it ): In the 12 swarasthanams, There are Two RIs, Two GAs, Two DHAs and Two NIs. If both of these swarasthanas from the same group appears in a raga, then it is supposed to possess the vivadhi nature ( since the pairs are separated by a semitone ) and hence they are called Vivadhi ragas.

There is a more complex/correct/traditional explanation using the 16 Swara name terminilogy ( R1,R2,R3 etc. ) but that should also essentially mean the same as above.

[natasha]

thank you : )

[saptaratna]

A Vivaadhi raga employs Vivaadhi notes in its scale and hence is called by that name.

Vivaadhi - the term means going against the grain of thought or approach.

Vivaadhi swara means , two swaras with similar tonic placements.

This means that the tonic placements of one swara clashes with the tonic placement of the other swara.

For ex: Chala nattai or Nattai , the scale is S /R3 (Shat)/ G3( Antara)/M1/ P/ D3(Shat) /N3(Kakali) both in the asce. and
desc.scales.

This is Vivaadhi as, the placement of R and G are at the same tonic levels and D and N are also at the same tonic placement levels. i.e. R3 = G3 & D3=N3

As against this Sankarabharanam is a Samvaadhi raga. ; i.e.it employs swaras which naturally follow the tonic placement of the preceeding swara and goes on to the next placement.

For ex: Sankarabharanam, the scale is S/R2/G3/M1/P/ D2/N3 both in the ascen and desc scales.

It is a natural flow to follow with the next tonic level compared to the previous note. This is natural and also more pleasing to the ear and
offers a tonal variation to the ears and is easy to expound the raga in alapana.

As against this, Vivaadhi swaras are constrained by similar tonic placements and ( may ) - PLEASE NOTE "may" seem jarring to the ears and hence the older rule was to not sing much of it and they called it Vivaadhi dosham.

Best examples of popular Vivaadhi ragas are : Nattai, Varali, Vagadeeswari.

[naaree]

This is Vivaadhi as, the placement of R and G are at the same tonic levels and D and N are also at the same tonic placement levels. i.e. R3 = G3 & D3=N3

You meant R3=G2 and D3=N2.

NS

[vasanthakokilam]

It is much simpler to explain it if you think of R, G, D and N to have only two variations: Small and Big. It is vivadhi if both Small and Big variations of one of these four notes are used in a raga.

[vs_manjunath]

It's really nice to be getting educated about Vivaadhi Ragas.

[arunk]

I. It is vivadhi if both Small and Big variations of one of these four notes are used in a raga.

Not strictly correct as that would make bhairavi a vivadi raga .

Should perhaps read "both Small and Big variations of one of these four notes occur adjacent to each other as part of ascent/descent to the next/prev swara. in a raga"

You need 3 adjacent swaras of which 2 of these are these kind - for the vivadi effect.

Arun

[Suji Ram]

why do we have R3 when it is same as G2 ?
I know that the gamakas slightly change when you think about rendering R3 or G2

[arunk]

because R3 implies G3 is there and follows it, and maybe CM pioneers (i.e. ramamatya, venkatamakhin) were following/establishing some tradition/scheme (as opposed to HM). - i.e. next note from sa has to be ri, then ga, then ma (as opposed to ri ga and then ga again). Also perhaps makes kalpanaswara a bit more uniform. Of course that is uniform from the cm perspective. HM doesnt follow this (?i think?)

Arun

[ramakriya]

In present day Hindustani scheme there are only two values for each note - kOmal and shuddh (for R, G, D, N) and shuddha and tIvra ( for M).

-Ramakriya

[Suji Ram]

In present day Hindustani scheme there are only two values for each note - kOmal and shuddh (for R, G, D, N) and shuddha and tIvra ( for M).

-Ramakriya

so would they have G2 G3 in a rAg ? like we have R3 G3 ?

[ramakriya]

Yes - for example in rAgas like jOg G3 G2 is used.

[vasanthakokilam]

I. It is vivadhi if both Small and Big variations of one of these four notes are used in a raga.

Not strictly correct as that would make bhairavi a vivadi raga .

Should perhaps read "both Small and Big variations of one of these four notes occur adjacent to each other as part of ascent/descent to the next/prev swara. in a raga"

You need 3 adjacent swaras of which 2 of these are these kind - for the vivadi effect.

Arun

OK, you are talking about usage and I was referring to the Aro/Ava involving both Small and Big variations of these notes as part of the melakartha raga definition. Your point is well taken.

I see the import of your statement up to "both Small and Big variations of one of these four notes occur adjacent to each other". But what is the significance of the stiputation "as part of ascent/descent to the next/prev swara". Wouldn't a prayoga like "G2G3G2G2G2G3G3G3G2G3" produce the vivadhi effect. I understand you need to get to this sequence from another swara and go to other swaras as part of the raga/song but I am curious why you say that explicitly here.

[arunk]

[ But what is the significance of the stiputation "as part of ascent/descent to the next/prev swara". Wouldn't a prayoga like "G2G3G2G2G2G3G3G3G2G3" produce the vivadhi effect. I understand you need to get to this sequence from another swara and go to other swaras as part of the raga/song but I am curious why you say that explicitly here.

I think you are right. I was thinking about why R2R3 by itself would not produce the effect (because in that context it can be interpreted as R2G2).

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

why do we have R3 when it is same as G2 ?
I know that the gamakas slightly change when you think about rendering R3 or G2

Arun already answered it. With that stipulation/restriction that you only define one R, G, D and N per raga, it is an ingenious scheme to accomodate all these vivadhi ragas using 16 swara names and get to the magic number of 72 melakartha ragas. Otherwise we will have only 32 melakartha ragas. While I fully realize the technical wizardry for coming up with such a compact classification scheme, It is quite confusing when the 16 swara names get into common parlance beyond musicology and theory.

[Suji Ram]

Thanks Arun and VK for the explanation.

[madhurya]

" yekena shruthyantitou parasparam vivaadisou"

Ragas which have svaras seperated by only one sruti interval are called vivadi ragas

there are 40 vivadi melas in the venkatamakhin system.they are;-

1. all the melas of 1st, 5th, 7th and 11th chakras ( 24 in all)

2.the 1st and the last ( pa and sha of the pa,sri,go,bhu,ma and sha) ragas of every chakra

3. any janya raaga with shuddha rishaba,shu.gandhara......shu daivatha and shu.nishada .....shatsruti rishaba and shatsruti daivata are also vivadi raagas.


in olden days they avoided singing these raagas because they believed they would create dischord in the atmosphere.

[msakella]

Dear b/s-member, madhurya, Your explanation given in this regard is very correct. But, surprisingly, in the 3rd item you have forgotten to include ‘Shatshruti-rishabha and Antara-gandhara ……Shatshruti-dhaivata and Kakali-nishada’. amsharma.

[ragam-talam]

Some vivadi ragas do sound a bit 'dissonant'.
There must be a recommended technique for singing these types of ragas, so as to minimize the 'discordancy' effect?

[madhurya]

yes ..i stand corrected Sharmagaaru.i just gave shatsrutiri rishabha and shatsruti daivata without giving their partners!!
i have met you in bangalore, sir, in malladi jaisri's place. am blessed to learn sri annamacharya's kritis from the great vidwan Nedunurigaaru himself, whom you revere so much.

[vasanthakokilam]

" yekena shruthyantitou parasparam vivaadisou"

Ragas which have svaras seperated by only one sruti interval are called vivadi ragas

I do not understand this definition. What is one sruti interval in this context? In the 22 sruthi concept, sruthi intervals are not all the same. So is it meant to imply a semi tone? That is not a correct definition either since there are notes separated by a semi tone which are not vivadi.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, I hereunder furnishthe version I have learnt from Dr.R.Sathyanarayana of Mysore. Plerase go through it. amsharma.
CORRELATION OF SHRUTIS & SWARAS

The Shruti aspect of our music has become cumbersome due to different versions of applications by different people increasing the ambiguity of the topic to the common aspirant. Me too have learnt one of the ambiguous versions but, once, when pointed out by Mahamahopadhya & Rashtrabhooshana Dr. R. Sathyanarayana, the walking encyclopaedia of our Indian Culture of Mysore, I have found the mistakes of it and learnt only the needful from him as, always, my main concentration was only on Talaprastara. Now, I shall try to bring out the same to make only a brief understanding of the subject.

Since ancient times, in all the treatises of music, the same Shloka ‘chatuschatuschatuschaiva shadjapanchamamadhyamaah dvedvenishaadagaandhaarau threesthree rishabhadhaivatau’ was prescribed in regard to 22 Shrutis and as per this Shloka while Shadja, Panchama and Madhyama are of 4 Shrutis each, Nishada and Gandhara are of 2 Shrutis each and Rishabha and Dhaivata are of 3 Shrutis each. Thus, among the 7 notes:
Shadja consisting of 4 Shrutis occupies the 4th Shruti
Rishabha -do- 3 -do- 7th -do-
Gandhara -do- 2 -do- 9th -do-
Madhyama -do- 4 -do- 13th -do-
Panchama -do- 4 -do- 17th -do-
Dhaivata -do- 3 -do- 20th -do-
Nishada -do- 2 -do- 22nd –do-

In the ancient times while the Svaras, Shadja, Panchana & Madhyama consisting of 4 Shrutis each were moved to the backward Shrutis only, the Svaras, Gandhara & Nishada consisting of 2 Shrutis were moved to the forward Shrutis and the Svaras, Rishabha & Dhaivata consisting of 3 Shrutis were not moved at all. In those days Svaras were treated as ‘Shuddha’ if they do not have any change either in their place of Shruti or in their consisting number of Shrutis and they were treated as ‘Vikrita’ if they have any change either in their place of Shruti or in their consisting number of Shrutis or both. This change of the place of Shruti or the consisting number of Shruti may occur either by its self movement of Svara or by the movement of the adjacent note.

In the ancient times the Svaras have undergone many changes of their places or constituent Shrutis and finally at the time of Venkatamakhi, while Shadja and Panchama have been fixed on the 4th and 17th Shrutis respectively, without any movement at all, the remaining Ri, Ga, Ma, Dha and Ni have been given only forward movement and treated as Shuddha Svaras as long as they remain on the 7th, 9th,13th, 20th & 22nd Shrutis respectively and as Vikrita-svaras if they move forward. Since then this method is in vogue as mentioned hereunder.

OLD VERSION: MODERN VERSION:
Sl.No. Note Sl.No. Note
of & its of & its
Shruti frequency Shruti frequency
---------------------- -----------------------
04 - S - 1 01 - S - 1
05 - --- 02 - R1 - 256/243
06 - --- 03 - R2 - 16/15
07 - Ra - 16/15* 04 - R3 - 10/9
08 - --- 05 - R4 - 9/8
09 - Ga & Ri - 9/8* 06 - G1 - 32/27
10 - Gi & Ru - 32/27* 07 - G2 - 6/5
11 - --- 08 - G3 - 5/4
12 - Gu - 5/4* 09 - G4 - 81/64
13 - Ma - 4/3* 10 - M1 - 4/3
14 - --- 11 - M2 - 27/20
15 - --- 12 - M3 - 45/32
16 - Mi - 45/32* 13 - M4 - 729/512
or 64/45
17 - P - 3/2* 14 - P - 3/2
18 - --- 15 - D1 - 128/81
19 - --- 16 - D2 - 8/5
20 - Dha - 128/81* 17 - D3 - 5/3
21 - --- 18 - D4 - 27/16
22 - Na & Dhi - 5/3* 19 - N1 - 16/9
01 - Ni & Dhu - 16/9* 20 - N2 - 9/5
02 - --- 21 - N3 - 15/8
03 - Nu - 15/8* 22 - N4 - 243/128
S - 2 S - 2

Thus, while Shadja and Panchama have become motion-less, among the remaining Rishabha, Gandhara, Dhaivata and Nishada have consisted of three kinds each - Ra, Ri, Ru; Ga, Gi, Gu; Dha Dhi, Dhu; Na, Ni, Nu - and Madhyama consisted of two kinds, Ma & Mi.

Among them, while the place of the first Gandhara on the 9th Shruti had also become the place of the second Rishabha and being called Panchashruti-rishabha (not Chatusshruti-rishabha at all) by being on the 5th Shruti from Shadja, the place of the second (Sadharana) Gandhara on the 10th Shruti had also become the place of the 3rd Rishabha and Shatshruti-rishabha by being on the 6th Shruti from Shadja. Later, though the third (Antara)Gandhara was placed on the 11th Shruti in the ancient times, it was later shifted to the 12th Shruti as the 12th Shruti, being a Svayambhoosvara, is more pleasing to the ear than the 11th Shruti.

In the same manner, while the place of the first Nishada on the 22nd Shruti had also become the place of the second Dhaivata and being called Panchashruti-dhaivata (not Chatusshruti-dhaivata at all) by being on the 5th Shruti from Panchama, the place of the second (Kaishiki) Nishada on the 1st Shruti had also become the place of the 3rd Dhaivata and being called Shatshruti-dhaivata by being on the 6th Shruti from Panchama. Later, though the third (Kakali) Nishada was placed upon the 2nd Shruti in the ancient times, it was later shifted to the 3rd Shruti as the 3rd Shruti being a Svayambhoosvara is more pleasing to the ear than the 2nd Shruti.

In respect of Madhyama, while the Madhyama on 13th Shruti had become Shuddha Madhyama, the 16th Shruti was taken as the place of the second Madhyama and named as Prati-madhyama as, in the ancient times, the Panchama of Madhyama-grama was placed on the 16th Shruti and was the representative (Pratinidhi) of the Panchama of that Madhyama-grama.

Thus, among the 22 Shrutis, while the 4th, 7th, 9th, 10th 12th, 13th, 16th, 17th 20th, 22nd, 1st and 3rd Shrutis are Svaragata-shrutis, the remaining 5th, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 15th, 18th, 19th, 21st and 2nd Shrutis are Antargata-shrutis.

The Svaragatasthanas (while the Svaras are 7 their Sthanas, which are called Svarasthanas, should also be 7. But, as the Svarasthanas are 12, to make a difference between the names of Svara and Svarasthana, they should be called as Svaragatasthanas only but not as Svarasthanas) of a Sthayi have to be obtained by the following five acoustical methods together as mentioned in our old treatises:
1. Ascending cycle of fifths (Shadja-panchama-bhava of upward movement).
2. Descending cycle of fourths (Shadja-madhyama-bhava of downward movement).
3.Triangulation method coinciding of each Svaragatasthana from its consonants of the fifth (Panchama),
fourth (Madhyama) and Major 3rd (Antara-gandhara).
4.Combination of Panchama, Madhyama and Antara-gandhara Bhavas.
5.Method of harmonics.

A list of shades of Shrutis of Svaragatasthanas, mostly used in our Karnataka music, obtained by the above five methods have been furnished along with their frequency ratios and cents in ‘Music of Madhva Monks of Karnataka’ written and published in 1988 by Dr. R.Sathyanarayana, a living and walking encyclopaedia of our Indian Culture of Mysore (this list is not furnished here as the form of any such list is taking an entirely different shape in these posts). When, some years back, I requested him to teach me the much needed details of 22 Shrutis (as I have always been used to concentrate much upon Talaprastara only) he told his son, R.S.Nandakumar, a Civil Engineer, Astrologer and a great Talavadhana Vidwan to bring a Veena, a calculator and a measusring-cloth-tape. Then as per his instructions I have measured the length of the strings on Veena in a particular manner and with some calculations I could obtain the following frequencies of the 12 notes:

While the entire Sa string, between the 1st fret and the bridge, is of 93.00 cm.:
Ra is 5.30; 93.00 – 5.30=87.70; 93.00/87.00=1.06=16/15.
Ga is 10.00; 93.00 – 10.00=83.00; 93.00/83.00=1.120=9/8.
Gi is 14.50; 93.00 – 14.50=78.50; 93.00/78.50=1.184=32/27.
Gu is 18.25; 93.00 – 18.25=74.75; 93.00/74.75=1.244=5’4 (1.25).
Ma is 22.75; 93.00 – 22.75=70.25; 93.00/70.25=1.33=4/3.
Mi is 26.75; 93.00 – 26.75=66.25; 93.00/66.25=1.404=45/32 (1.406).
Pa is 30.50; 93.00 – 30.50=62.50; 93.00/62.50=1.49=3/2 (1.5).
Dha is 34.00; 93.00 – 34.00=59.00; 93.00/59.00=1.576=128/81 (1.580).
Na is 37.25; 93.00 – 37.25=55.75; 03.00/55.75=1.668=5/3 (1.666).
Ni is 40.25; 93.00 – 40.25=52.75; 93.00/52.75=1.763=16/9 (1.777).
Nu is 43.00; 93.00 – 43.00=50.00; 93.00/50.00=1.86=15/8 (1.875).
Sa is 46.20; 93.00 – 46.20=46.80; 93.00/46.80=1.987=2.

Prior to Venkatamakhi while the Svaras consisting of an interval of 8 or 12 Shrutis and having the same number of fixed Shrutis were defined as Samvadis and this relation was restricted only to apply to Shuddha-svaras, Venkatamakhi extended this Samvadi relation to Vikrita-svaras too ( at any time Shuddha Madhyama and Shuddha Nishada have never been treated as Samvadis even though they are having an interval of 8 Shrutis as they are of 4 and 2 Shruti constituents respectively). Thus, Gi-Ni, Gu-Nu, Ra-Mi become Samvadis.

In the same manner Ra-Ga, Dha-Na, Ru-Gu, and Dhu-Nu having an interval of a single Shruti are treated as Vivadis of whose usage enhances the beauty of Vadi.

Critical points on the modern division of Shrutis:

In his Sangita Parijata, Ahobala mentioned that these 22 Shrutis have to be obtained by the cycle of fifths (Shadja-panchama-bhava) only. As some discrepancies have arisen by this method no other musicologist prior to him or even after him had accepted his version. But, Govindacharya, in his Sangrahachoodamani, included this version in the form of Sanskrit Shlokas and attributed it to Lord Shiva and Parvathi as a conversation between them took place in Skanda Purana, only to attain easy acclamation. This method is being followed by many of which the defects of it are given hereunder.

1.In this method, as only cycle of fifths (Shadja-panchama-bhava)was taken into account, all the 22 Shrutis have come Svaragatasthanas only and among them Shadja and Panchama carry one Svaragatasthana each and the remaining five, Ri, Ga, Ma, Dha & Ni carry four Svaragatasthanas each. By this method all the 2 Shrutis have been transformed into 22 Svaragatasthanas which is a blunder.

2. In fact, while there are two Svaragatasthanas for each one of Ri, Ga, Ma, Dha & Ni, in this modern method, each of these Svaragatasthanas have been allotted of two Shrutis. Thus, as there is a single Shruti interval for each two of these Svaragatasthanas, every two Svaragatasthanas have become Vivadis, while in the traditional method only Ra-Ga, Ru-Gu, Dha-Na and Dhu-Nu have become Vivadis.

3. In the traditional method, the place of the first (Shuddha)Gandhara and the second (Panchashruti) Rishabha is one the same and in the same manner the place of the first (Shuddha) Nishada and the second (Panchashruti) Dhaivata is also one and the same. But, in the modern method, while the place of the first (Shuddha) Gandhara is on the first Shruti of the four Shrutis allotted to Gandhara, the place of the second Rishabha is on the fourth Shruti of the four Shrutis allotted to Rishabha. And, in the same manner, while the place of the first (Shuddha) Nishada is on the first Shruti of the dodur Shrutis allotted to Nishada, the place of the second Dhaivata is on the fourth Shruti of the four Shrutis allotted to Dhaivata. This is a glaring blunder of this modern division of 22 Shrutis in which the co-ordination between the theory and practicals is damaged and they both contradict each other.

Otherwards, while, in the traditional method, both the second Rishabha and the first Gandhara occupy the same 5th Shruti from Shadja, in the modern method, the second Rishabha and the first Gandhara occupy the fourth and fifth Shrutis respectively from Shadja. And, in the same manner, while, in the traditional method, both the second Dhaivata and the first Nishada occupy the same 5th Shruti from Panchama, in the modern method, the second Dhaivata and the first Nishada occupy the fourth and fifth Shrutis respectively from Panchama. This is a great blunder.

4. As per the traditional method and also as per the measurements of the Veena-mela:

(i) while the 7th Shruti is the place of the first Rishabha and its frequency ratio is 16/15, in this modern method, this ratio is of 6th Shruti,

(ii) while the 9th Shruti is the place of the first Gandhara or second Rishabha and its frequency ratio is 9/8, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 8th Shruti,

(iii) while the 10th Shruti is the place of the second Gandhara or the third Rishabha and its frequency ratio is 32/27, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 9th Shruti,

(iv) while the 12th Shruti is the place of the third Gandhara and its frequency ratio is 5/4, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 11th Shruti,

(v) while the 16th Shruti is the place of the second Madhyama and its frequency ratio is 45/32, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 15th Antaragata-shruti,

(vi) while the 20th Shruti is the place of the first Dhaivata and its frequency ratio is 128/81, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 18th Antargata-shruti,

(vii) while the 22nd Shruti is the place of the first Nishada or the second Dhaivata and its frequency ratio is 5/3, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 20th Shruti of the first Dhaivata,

(viii) while the 1st Shruti is the place of the second Nishada or the third Dhaivata and its frequency ratio is 16/9, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 22nd Shruti and

(ix) while the 3rd Shruti is the place of the third Nishada and its frequency ratio is 15/8, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 2nd Antargatra-shruti.

As all these above are great blunders of this modern method, this method is irrelevant, irrational and self-contradictory.

Very-important-note: I, personally, feel it as the responsibility of the elders to do the needful to remove any ambiguity of any subject while imparting its knowledge to our kids in the process of preservation our culture for posterity. Like-minded people must flock together to work accordingly with devotion and dedication in doing the same in the interest of our community.

[sanskritscholar]

Since ancient times, in all the treatises of music, the same Shloka ‘chatuschatuschatuschaiva shadjapanchamamadhyamaah dvedvenishaadagaandhaarau threesthree rishabhadhaivatau’ was prescribed in regard to 22 Shrutis and as per this Shloka while Shadja, Panchama and Madhyama are of 4 Shrutis each, Nishada and Gandhara are of 2 Shrutis each and Rishabha and Dhaivata are of 3 Shrutis each. Thus, among the 7 notes:
Shadja consisting of 4 Shrutis occupies the 4th Shruti

This is very puzzling. What is meant by saying that shaDja *consists of* 4 Shrutis and then saying that it occupies the 4th Shruti? "Consists of" implies that shaDja has 4 Shrutis, while "occupies" means it is 4 Shrutis away from some other note (only the nishAda makes sense here to be the other note).

In the ancient times while the Svaras, Shadja, Panchana & Madhyama consisting of 4 Shrutis each were moved to the backward Shrutis only, the Svaras, Gandhara & Nishada consisting of 2 Shrutis were moved to the forward Shrutis and the Svaras, Rishabha & Dhaivata consisting of 3 Shrutis were not moved at all. In those days Svaras were treated as ‘Shuddha’ if they do not have any change either in their place of Shruti or in their consisting number of Shrutis and they were treated as ‘Vikrita’ if they have any change either in their place of Shruti or in their consisting number of Shrutis or both. This change of the place of Shruti or the consisting number of Shruti may occur either by its self movement of Svara or by the movement of the adjacent note.

This is even more puzzling! Does it mean that the values of shaDja, panchama and madhyama were flattened, while gandhAra and nishAda were sharpened and rishabha and dhaivata left untouched? It seems to me that in those days, ri and dha had the place of sa and pa today! Anyway, how do we know what music that people sang and played in those days?

[msakella]

Dear b/s-member, sanskritscholar, Now, we do not have any varieties in Shadja and Panchama. But, in ancient times they also have movements along with others. On my request this has also been explained to me in a nut shell by Dr.R.Sathyanarayana of Mysore as I , having always been used to concentrate mostly upon Talaprastara only, have changed my course a little bit towards these ambiguous Shrutis and learnt a very little to, in turn, teach the students of my institution. But, here, as I want to define the Vivadi relation only I did not give them in detail. The interested people can meet Dr.R.Sathyanarayana and discuss them.
In fact, there is nothing puzzling in the system of 4-3-2-4-4-3-2 at all but in the modern system of 1-4-4-4-1-4-4. Unlike any other musicologist Dr.R.Sathyanarayana had demonstrated it within minutes with the help of a Veena of which I have given the details. Any interested person can try this demonstration himself and find the truth. amsharma.

[nadhaskasim]

Have you all read the book by Vidhwan Madurai Ponnuswamy pillai about melakartha Raghas? If yes, What are your openions?

[arunk]

When you get a chance, please check out the latest post on my blog regarding concept of vivadi in cm: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2008/10/13/vivadi . Any feedback is really appreciated.

Arun

[vainika]

Some vivadi ragas do sound a bit 'dissonant'.
There must be a recommended technique for singing these types of ragas, so as to minimize the 'discordancy' effect?

A technique that Professor SR Janakiraman uses in ascent phrases of some vivAdi rAgas is to approach the second note in the pair by means of a downward glide (erakka jAru) from the next note in the rAga.

For example, in the rAgas that have S R1 G1 M1 -> he sings S R1 (M1) G1 M1 where G1 is a downward glide from M1.

Similarly, P D1 N1 S' may be rendered as P D1 (S') N1 S'

[Mahalakshmi]

May anybody expalin the terms semitone and cycle of fifths in a simple manner?
Thank you.

[Mahalakshmi]

Coming to the point that the janya ragas of a vivadi ragas are always vivadi ragas, suppose in Kanakangi, if we take the swaras S G M P N S, (and avoid R and D)will this janya raga still sound dissonant?

[vidya]

Have you all read the book by Vidhwan Madurai Ponnuswamy pillai about melakartha Raghas? If yes, What are your openions?

nadhaskasim,
Are are referring to Madurai Ponnuswami Pillai's pUrvika sangIta uNmai? I have not read in detail the thrust of his arguments and would like to know more about them. Even in his times,there were several people who were not in acceptance of this idea. It is said that Ponnuswami Pillai approached (UraiyUr) gopalaswami Pillai for writing a foreword, the latter refused on the grounds that he opposed the idea of the book on principle.
- When there is an acknowledged existence of nAttai and its pre-eminent existence in both Tamizh music and even in nagasvaram music nAttai has its forte and also the prevalence of varALi I see no way of justifying an argument in favor of only 32. How does one justify the presence of these ragas and their basis?

-Also the timeframe a musical thought arises is very important to its survival. This book came out a few centuries too late. The 72 mela scheme had already become too well-ingrained in the public eye for the two viewpoints to be weighed on an equal footing.

Could you throw light on what exactly were his arguments were for the 32 melas only theory if you have read this book?

[arunk]

venkatamakhin explains the vivadi swaras R3, G1, D3, N1 via 3 ragas: varALi (G1) nATa (R3,D3) and mukhAri (i.e. today's suddha mukhAri for G1 N1).

I think definitely varALi and nATA were the main reasons for elevating vivadi swaras to the same status as other and thus allowing for 72 possibilities.

As a sidenote, he also explains M2 in terms of varALi (to quote example of G1 M2 combo), his pantuvarALi which is today's SubhapantuvarALi (to explain G2 M2 combo) and suddharamakriya IIRC (G3 M2 combo).

Also, unless we are still mis-interpretaing rAmamatya's (16th century) swarasthanams or his melas, he had a lot of vivadi melas in his list of 15 (venkaTamakhin thought rAmamatya was quite wrong in many of his classifications)

Arun

[arunk]

Coming to the point that the janya ragas of a vivadi ragas are always vivadi ragas, suppose in Kanakangi, if we take the swaras S G M P N S, (and avoid R and D)will this janya raga still sound dissonant?

No. This would be like S R2 M P D2 S - i.e. suddha savEri although if G and N are flat then it would a "flat suddha sAvEri". The dissonance of a vivAdi swara is really a dissonance caused by using it consecutively with a neighboring swara (i.e. r g and d n for kanakAngi). Btw, I deal with this question in my blog entry with a "demo" (albeit flawed )

Arun

[arunk]

May anybody expalin the terms semitone and cycle of fifths in a simple manner?
Thank you.

Semitone is a western music concept. Today in CM, there are 12 "intervals" in an octave:
1. S-R1
2. R1-R2
3. R2-G2
4. G2-G3
5. G3-M1
6. M1-M2
7. M2-P
8. P-D1
9. D1-D2
10. D2-N2
11. N2-N3
12. N3-S

In western music notation, if Sa is C, then this is
1. C-C#
2. C#-D
3. D-D#
4. D#-E
5. E-F
6. F-F#
7. F#-G
8. G-G#
9. G#-A
10. A-A#
11. A#-B
12. B-C

(Note: C# (C-Sharp) is same as D-Flat - same thing applies to other Sharps)

Each such interval is called a semitone.

Now in actual use in CM (and also in olden days western music, and even in some contemporary western music which uses the "natural" scale), these intervals are not equal (in terms of pitch). But in western music (I think for the last 300-400 years?), they found a way the octave into 12 equal portions, and still be "close enough" to the natural scale. This allows them to do western orchestration very effectively (scale shifts etc,). This is called "equi-tempered" scale/tuning.

So the adopted a convention that each portion is a semitone and 12 semitones make an octave. Each semitone in term is divided into 100 cents. So 1 octave (sa-sa) is 12 semitones of 1200 cents.

Many times, a reference to 1 semitone many times implies the equi-tempered version i.e 100 cents. But even when using natural scale, they would say that E and F are separated by one semitone.

Arun

[arunk]

cycle of fifths:
This is basically used to arrive at different positions in the octave by taking a position and getting its "pa".

If sa's pitch is say 120Hz, then pa is 3/2 * 120 = 180. So if sa is 1, pa is 3/2. Note that "sa in tara stayi" is double the pitch i.e. 240 or 2.

Now what is pa's pa? It is 3/2 * 3/2 = 9/4 = 2.125. This is a position/stanam in the tara stayi ( it is > 2). So you divide by 2 to get the stanam back in madya stayi. This is 9/8 and it is normally the ratio quoted for catusruthi rishabam i.e. ri.

So pa's pa is ri.

Now what is ri's pa? You do 9/8*3/2 = 27/16 and that is in the neighborhood of catusruthi dhaivatam.

This process is called cycle of fifths. The "fifth" is the western equivalent of pa. There is a similar one for doing sa's ma, then ma's ma etc. That is called cycle of fourths. Again "fourth" is the western equivalent of (suddha) ma. The ratio for ma is 4/3. Immediate application similar to above gets you ratios in the neighborhood of kaisiki nishadam and sadharana gandharam.

Arun

[Mahalakshmi]

thank you very much arunk for the prompt reply. I may come up with doubts if any.

[sramaswamy]

Now what is pa's pa? It is 3/2 * 3/2 = 9/4 = 2.125. This is a position/stanam in the tara stayi ( it is > 2). So you divide by 2 to get the stanam back in madya stayi. This is 9/8 and it is normally the ratio quoted for catusruthi rishabam i.e. ri.

Arunk

Thats very interesting. I never realized that concept. I have always thought pa's pa will be higher sa. Based on that concept, I have a question.

I learn from a lady teacher who while teaching has the sruthi set to G - 5 kattai. When I learn along, I am probably singing in C - 1 kattai. During the song, when I am repeating the song, how does it work?

Is the gent always half octave behind for every note? So if my understanding is correct, the notes in terms of frequency are not going to be the same as singing in 1 kattai.

s - madhya sthayi, p` - mandara sthayi , S - tara sthayi

All references to the note below are with reference to the lady.

================
Lady Gent
================

s p`
p s
S p
P S
================

[arunk]

sramaswamy,

I presume you were indeed singing in C (and not in G)? i.e. you were singing at a lower pitch than her and you were able to reach *your* mandra pa and mandra ma?

If so, in this case, what is probably happening is that for each swara you sing, she sings its ma (not pa) higher but the net effect is musically both your phrases are the same just exactly one octave apart. To clarify, it is ma's pa that is sa. Not pa's pa.

For example, lets say you sings s r2 g3 m1~~~ in Sankarabharanam with your reference point i.e. C sruthi. This is C D E F~~~ (roughly of course).

From her G-sruthi reference point, if she sings m1 p d2 n3~~~ - then this becomes C D E F~~~ (if G is sa, G# if R1, A is R2, A# is G2, B is G3, C is M1). This C D E F~~~ is one octave higher than yours. So both of you are pretty much singing the same phrase.

Arun

[arunk]

oh forgot to add. As you staring going to her tara stayi, obviously this will be strain for her to match, and so she wont match it in tara stayi but do it in madhya stayi. So if you go say S R2 G3 M1~~~ in your C sruthi, which is again C D E F but one octave higher that earlier. Now, she will simply sing it like before i.e. as m1 p d2 n3 (and not M P D2 N3 - her tara stayi). Thus thus both of you would sing C D E F~~~ in the same octave now. You obviously went up one octave, and she (who was one octave higher already) remains in the same octave.

Arun

[ramakriya]

>>I learn from a lady teacher who while teaching has the sruthi set to G - 5 kattai. When I
>>>learn along, I am probably singing in C - 1 kattai.

No - I would suppose you have to be singing in G too! except that you may be in the same octave or one below depending on where in the octave you are.

-Ramakriya

[sramaswamy]

arunk,

Ahh! now I understand.

The sruthi box is set to G. But from yours and Ramakriya's answer I conclude that both of us are singing at C - 1 Kattai ( for which G is the pa). I am singing at madhya sthayi and the lady teacher is singing at tara sthayi.

I am able to go down to mandra pa and mandra ma. That means I am singing with G as my pa (or C - 1 kattai as sa).

I must say that your deduction is truly a Sherlock Holmian ( or modern day Monkian). I have noticed that the lady teacher's voice is strained when she goes to tara sthayi. I used to wonder and be puzzled. Like you mentioned, she then sings in madhya sthayi. On the other end, I have found her having an easy time singing mandara sthayi phrases. But, now I understand. She is singing with G in madhyama sruthi.

And I also now understand the difficulty she is having while teaching prati madhyama ragas. My brain is having a hard time analyzing and fitting all the pieces for this algorithm. Let me try to work it out as an exercise for me. But I can see that, that is going to present a problem.

Thanks arunk for that enlightening answer. Thanks to Ramakriya too.

Now I am amazed at Anuradha Sriram singing along with Sriram Parasuram at that high pitch!

And I presume that DKJ and DKP sang at the same pitch, when singing together. Again an amazing act by DKJ.

[arunk]

sramaswamy,

Thanks but actually if she is also singing to your sruthi, I wonder why even set the sruthi box to G? I also learn from a female teacher (which could explain why I could answer this ), and the sruthi box is set to my sruthi and she adjusts her singing (i.e. stayi switch) accordingly.

Now I know that there is general prescription that "singing in different sruthi is injurious to one's cm health" etc. I can sort of see it - but a part of me also wonders that as long as you stick to your range only, and switch stayis' etc. whats the big fuss except perhaps taking away from time to develop more and more affinity to one's own sruthi (which is why I understand the trepidation).

But in this case the person is singing in your sruthi and so I am a bit perplexed as to why the sruthi box should be set to G, a different sruthi than what is being sung. It seems needlessly convoluted (and hence I was thinking that perhaps ramakriya's suggestion that you were also singing G was an easier explanation )

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

I am a bit confused on the practical ground reality. ( I understand the math/transformation Arun provided )

the reason for the confusion is this.

>The sruthi box is set to G.

What is mandatory is that both of you have the same Asdhara Sadjam, one octave apart. Since you are singing in your normal voice and the teacher is adjusting to you, then the sruthi for the lesson is C. My confusion is why should the sruthi box be set to G?

P.S. I did not see Arun's message before I posted mine. Arun makes the same point.

[sramaswamy]

At home when I practice on my own, I sing with the sruthi box set to D ( I am no "S.G".Kittappa to sing at G ]. But in class we have the sruthi box set to G, and the teacher has difficulty in reaching tara sthayi.

I simply thought that with C as Sa, G will be Pa and Sa and Pa sound well together we are singing half octave apart. That idea got tossed out when I read arunk's message. Now, I am all tied up in knots. And I am very curious to know what is going on?

When the sruthi box is set to G, will D be the mandara PA? I will try to change the sruthi setting to D in the next class and see whether the class goes the same way.

I can also provide a recording of my class to decipher the sruthi issue, if any or all of you are so inclined.

[arunk]

yes d would be mandra pa.

A better question is do you think you are singing in the same sruthi in class like in practice? Forget the sruthi box setting. Are you able to hit the same lowest possible swara for your range in class like in practice, as well as hit the same highest possible swara?

If you were singing in G in class, you would find it extremely easy to sing in tara stayi (say tara panchamam, you would most probably be able to go even higher easily), and similarly extremely hard to do mandra stayi (e.g. reach mandra panchamam).

Like ramakriya hinted, the chances of both of you singing as per sruthi box setting (and hence G) seems most logical.


Arun

[sramaswamy]

arunk

If you say that I might be singing in G, does that mean I am either singing at 5 kattai or one ocatave below that! That does not seem possible. I kind of think that I am singing in the same sruthi in class and in practice. My range is more or less the same in practice and in class. There might be a slight difference in the lowest and the highest note. That may differ in one note. Definitely not like half-octave which the G would denote.

[arunk]

the only reason I suggested is because of the implication that both of you are singing in C (or may be D) but with the sruthibox set to G - that is something I have not run into before and seems quite unusual.

There are only two possibilities:
1. Sing at sruthi box's setting i.e. G. In this case you (with average male sruthi) would be the one to switch stayis to adjust.
2. Sing at your sruthi i.e. C/D. In this case your teacher (with average frame sruthi) would be the one to switch stayis to adjust.

You had indicated (post #42) that you teacher adjusted and thus #2 does seem right as you thought. But again, the perplexing question is why is the sruthi box set to G? What good can it do at G in this scenario?

Arun

[sramaswamy]

arunk

Thank you very much for your patient analysis and putting up with my questions. I have been perplexed by this for over two years now. In the class, the sruthi box has been set to G right from beginning. I have concentrated on getting the sruthi right and considered looking at what sruthi it should be later. But now I am really interested in knowing what sruthi I am singing in the class.

This morning I set the sruthi box to G for my own individual practice. I found that is working good. As a male, what will be the possible pitch for sa under these circumstances? I am almost positive that this sounds different from when I set the sruthi box to C or D.

What will you suggest for me to find this out exactly? This has been plaguing my mind for quite a while. I will be very thankful if someone can solve this issue for me.

[arunk]

This morning I set the sruthi box to G for my own individual practice. I found that is working good.

What do you mean by "working good"? Are you able to reach mandra ma (say for abhOgi varnam)? Are you able to reach tara pa? If so, then either
(a) you are really SG kittappa - it is possible.
(b) (long shot) your sa is not matching the sa of G, but maybe you are really singing in D (i.e. mandra pa to a sa of G). I have no idea if this is so as it seems quite wild. But then maybe you have somehow conditioned yourself via classes.

One possibility is for you to post a small clip with the sruthi box (just sruthi box for a few seconds, and then you sing).

As a male, what will be the possible pitch for sa under these circumstances?.

I do not understand the question. For a G setting, G would be the sa.

Now if it is set to G madhyama sruthi, and you sing in madhyama sruthi, then C is the sa (G's madhyamam is C). In this case, the sa-ma-sa strum of tampura is G-C-G, and this becomes => pa`- sa - pa when we take C as sa.

For normal G, you have sa-pa-sa strum => G-D-G. It is possible you are taking D as sruthi and thus the G-D-G strum "becomes" ma`-sa-ma to you (which is why it seems so unusual)

Arun