what Raga is this???

TNS · Post by **TNS** » 28 Mar 2008, 14:02

hello!
i woul like to know the name of the raga which is a janya of Shankarabharanam which takes all the svaras from its parent, except Dhaivata. could any one help me to find the name of this raga?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 28 Mar 2008, 14:37

Kedaram fits the bill well...

Milagu · Post by **Milagu** » 30 Mar 2008, 21:17

Yes. Kedaram fits very well with Aarohanam - SMGMPNS., Avarohanam SNPMGRS

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Mar 2008, 21:33

Kedaram fits the bill, and as Milagu said, on the Arohanam it is vakram: S M G M P N S and it has special prayogam involving G S, so one needs all that for it to be Kedaram ( if you are trying to match up a tune to the raga, rather than as a theoretical exercise ).

I quickly scanned at the Janyas of Shankarabaranam. Interestingly, there are not that many Janya ragas without D. I found this one which seems to satisfy TNS's creiteria more directly but it is not a commonly known raga.

vilaasini S R2 G3 M1 P N3 S - S N3 P M1 G3 R2 S

And then there are:

bangaaLa S R2 G3 M1 P M1 R2 P S - S N3 P M1 R2 G3 R2 S

budharanjani S R2 G3 M1 P S - S N3 P M1 G3 M1 R2 S

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 30 Mar 2008, 22:46

The normal convention in deciding the Janaka ragam is to take the first melakartha ragam in 72 melakartha scheme that fits the bill. Isn't it so?
In such a case, the above ragas can be called as janya of sarasangi-since there is no daivatham in them and that is the only one differentiating it from sankarabharaNam. Just wanted to mention this-more as one of academic interest.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 31 Mar 2008, 06:34

Swati, can you pl contact Nellai TKSubramanian , who as far as we know is the leading authority in this aspect, possessing a knowledge of countless number of raagas and post his view on this sub ject.. as you are aware even ramaraj used to contact him to clear his doubt onraagas. It is rather sad that nellaimama's greatness has not been recognised.. gobilalitha

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 31 Mar 2008, 07:10

now for the humour capsule. once BMK was performing in a sabha.. as usual, he began an uncommon raaga two gentlemen sitting in the sec ond row opposite him, began to discuss the raaga in a loud manner,scratching their heads(which probably contained nothing neither inside,nor outside) BMK got irritated and said in telugu tamil 'neenga kasu koduthuthane kutcheri kekka vandirukkel? pesama irungo, naan padaren,( I think you have paid to hear the kutcheri, not free, pl keepquite) Let me sing , gobilalitha

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 31 Mar 2008, 12:29

Punarvasu..AFAIK classification under a Melakartha is somewhat random. It can be done under 1) the first Mela no. that matches the raga. 2) under the most popular scale under which it falls (e.g in this intsance Shankarabharanam)...or 3) the Mela which is most consonant with its melodic structure..the latter is rarely done in CM - for instance, Hamsadhwani is definitely more related to Kalyani than Sankarabharanam under which it is normally classified.

In HM the classification under thaats or raga families is more a function of melodic character than the notes alobe. Parrikar's site would illustrate this...Bilaskhani Thodi is categorized under the HM Thodi family (CM Shubha Pantuvarali) although the notes are same as Carnatic Thodi!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 31 Mar 2008, 14:41

Yes,I do agree.Mohanam is called a janyam of Hrikambhoji-the first melakartha that matches the raga-it can be a janya of sankarabharanam, vachaspathi or Kalyani.Which of these four Janakaragas, is more in consonant with the melodic structure of mohanam?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 31 Mar 2008, 16:34

Kalyani....long gap between G3 and M2/P makes the randling of this crucial note very similar for the two ragas, giving a similar flaour and a very different one from Harikambhoji or Sankarabharanam...not sure about Vachaspati although I suspect Gandharam would be handled as in Kalyani...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Mar 2008, 20:44

Vijay: I am personally in favor of bringing in aesthetic considerations when breaking a tie like this. I can sort of see a reason for considering Hamsadhwani with Kalyani, mainly because of the 'ni ri' prayogas being common for both and some mischievous musician can keep us guessing for a few seconds which way he/she is going to go.

On the other hand, the mohanam situation points to the pitfalls of that approach. There is no aesthetic connection between Mohanam and Kalyani ( for me that is). One may consider 'D R G' is close to 'N R G' but they do not bring about the same emotion/rasa.

The use of the melakartha scheme is to quickly point out which swaras a raga takes 'List the Aro/Ava and say it is a janya of 8' is a very compressed, convenient and easy way of communicating things which is great. We should probably not give it much more semantic and aesthetic meaning than that.

Possibly, we need another orthogonal grouping of ragas based on emotions/rasa/aesthetics that can cross melakartha boundaries. ( it does not have to be same as the HM system ).

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Apr 2008, 03:47

my 2 cents. Apologies for misinterpretations

Handling of ga and ni are the biggest differentiators between Sankarabharanam and Kalyani. Ga is steady in s'bharanam but pliable in kalyani - of course more spacing with ma, which also is not M1 (i.e. major ratio with sa) being the factors. Ni is way more pliable in kalyani - because of the pliability of ga, and also the (usual) pliability of ma2 to which it has a consonant relationship. As a side effect, ri in kalyani I think can also take some different flavors e.g. mostly steady (as opposed to nokkufied gamaka with ga as in sbharanam).

Hamsadhwani's ni is like kalyani. Also the srgp spacing allows ga to be pliable. Hence musically it seems to fit under kalyani. For mohanam this is probably the same reasoning - although all these assignments are wrought with ambiguity. Tne da in mohanam is like Sbaranam and kalyani, but not so like harikambhoji (but then perhaps like kambhoji in the p-d-s prayoga

.

Arun

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 01 Apr 2008, 13:53

TNS wrote:hello!
i woul like to know the name of the raga which is a janya of Shankarabharanam which takes all the svaras from its parent, except Dhaivata. could any one help me to find the name of this raga?

I think Nalinakaanthi also fits the bill.
Aarohanam-SGRMPNS
Avarohanam-SNPMGRS

tmohan · Post by **tmohan** » 01 Apr 2008, 15:46

Excellent Arunk !! I am feeling like going through the extracts of my old postings at RMIC. For the same reasons I have been arguing that both mOhanam and hamsadhvani need to be mapped to kalyANi.

In mid- 90's Prof. SRJ came up with some volumes of Raga lakshana. Based on the gamakam of r2, he maps hamsadhvani to kalyANi. The importance of catushruti daivatam as nyAsa svarAs for harikAmbhoji and is dervatives is quite significant . For mOhanam, it cannot be an ending note either in the Ar or Avr. SSP maps mOhanam to kalyANi though hamsadvani goes to SBaraNam.

NaLinakAnti is traditionally considered as a derivative of sarasAngi . A careful analysis of the notes wit their oscillations would reveal this.

Regards
Mohan

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Apr 2008, 18:14

tmohan wrote:The importance of catushruti daivatam as nyAsa svarAs for harikAmbhoji and is dervatives is quite significant . For mOhanam, it cannot be an ending note either in the Ar or Avr.

Can you pl. elaborate on this e.g. examples (say in krithis) of HK janya raga prayogas where da is nyAsa? I can sort of picture kAmbhOji but it is still blurry

So maybe kAmbhOji and one more. I can picture for mOhanam say a kalpanaswara like Sd; RSd; or say pg gr sd`; dsrg; etc. (upper case - tara stayi, d` - mandra ) But not sure if it is right - and even if it is would usage for da wouldnt be a nyAsa?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Apr 2008, 00:39

I like this discussion about grouping ragas based on how one executes individual swaras. So the demarcation lines fall like this, I suppose.

1) Melakartha based janya classification - Useful for consisely pointing out which of the 12 swarasthanas are used in that janya ragas. It does not really matter which mela a janya raga is associated with, for this purpose. So, if one specifies, Janya J belongs to Mela M, one knows which swarasthanas to use.

2) Swarasthna execution based janya classification - Here aesthetics come into picture. This is quite challenging but let us assume such grouping is possible ( sort of like what HM does ). Then if Member raga R belongs to Aesthetic Group G and Mela M, we have a good specification on what swarasthana to use and how to execute that swarasthana.

tmohan · Post by **tmohan** » 02 Apr 2008, 12:19

Arunji

I am not able to tell you any kriti in HarikAmbhoji or its janyAs with prediminant nyAsa svArAs. I feel nyAsa is quite technical used mainly in AlApanA , niraval and kalpanAsvarAs ( like arudi in palllavIs). In krtis jIva, amsa, dhIrga svarAs will be more dominating in addition to some charactersitic phrases. [ perhaps not much of action is involved for nyAsA] Again, the terms are independent. The same note can be jIva, amsa (like r2 in sahAna) or nyAsa ( pa in Arabhi).

These can be better seen in varNAs .One example is the jalajAkSha varNam in hamsadhvani. The caraNam clearly depicts the importance of n3 as graham, amsam, jIvam and nyAsam .

The mapping of janaka-janya rAgAs itself is an immportant exercise( sometimes difficult) in knowing the characteristics ( the rakti) of the rAga. This is why bhUpALam ( of MD's version) is mapped to dhEnuka rather to tODi. The devakriya ( 28 ) is different from the prevailing shudda sAveri (29). I prefer valaji to be mapped to cakravAham rather to harikAmbhoji for its similarity to the morning rAga malaya mArutam.

Regards
Mohan

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Apr 2008, 01:47

Thanks mohan.

ChendurMahesh · Post by **ChendurMahesh** » 27 Apr 2008, 21:00

I am trying to explore rishabhapriya janyas (62 mela, sometimes called ratipriya). Does anyone has a list with some compositions (I already has the list from karnatik.com, but no composition). Only gopriya seem to be known.Thank you

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 27 Apr 2008, 23:37

Here are the songs in my list:

Adi madhyanta rahite shive-Katyayani-K.Ramaraj
ainkara hrinkara-Omkarasvarupini-(Adi Shankara verse sungs as varNa by T K Govinda Rao)
Are gatitanana bhushana-Ratnabhanu-Govindacharya gitam
Brovavela epudu-Ratnabhanu-Tiruvettiyur Tyagayya
Gopinatha-Gopriya-Bangalore S.Mukund
Gopriyam gopalam-Gopriya-P.P.Ramakrishnan
Hat ki murli bajavun-Shuddhasarang-Ambujam Krishna
Kannan enroru siruvan-Shuddhasarang-Namakkal Narasimha Iyengar
Krishnana nodade-Shuddhasarang-Ashok Madhav
Manave mantralaya-Shuddhasarang-A.V.Krshnamachar

seldnplan · Post by **seldnplan** » 28 Apr 2008, 09:54

re: mOhanam, one thing in favor of its being a janyam of harikAmbhOji is the kampita gamakam of the dha in the descent, which oscillates between catushruti dhaivatam and kaisiki niSAdam. also, of course harikAmbhOji is the first mELakarta in the list to have all the svarAs in mOhanam.

in the end, though, i feel any such discussion of mELakarta assignments can only be academic, and may be even downright unhelpful. what's the point of straitjacketing a perfectly fine raga, with its own musical contours and identity, by trying to fit it into a somewhat arbitrary scheme of classification?

ChendurMahesh · Post by **ChendurMahesh** » 28 Apr 2008, 17:43

Thanks a lot.

chitrathiagarajan · Post by **chitrathiagarajan** » 29 Apr 2008, 11:13

Can I get the link to the rendering of Bhajagovindam by Sulamangalam sisters?
CT