Dr. Vidyadhar Oke has devised a harmonium which can play 22 shrutis.
Check this site :
http://www.22shrutiharmonium.com/
Details of the research is here :
http://www.22shrutiharmonium.com/research_topic_1.asp
Very interesting...
22 Shrutis
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vk
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 18 May 2007, 19:13
Not only on the harmonium, you can also generate 22 shrutis or any shruti for that matter on your computer by generating waveforms at the required frequnecies using matlab. But the fact is 22 shrutis do not exist in our music as pointed out by someone who researched on this aspect in the recent times.
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
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vk
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 18 May 2007, 19:13
I dont think you have to write a separate code. There are inbuilt matlab commands for which you need to supply the value of the frequency of the waveform you want to generate and play the generated waveform. You can also acquire through the microphone again using similar commands a peice of the song that you sing for the sake of time-frequency analysis (STFTs). I am not sure if these options available only with Signal Processing Tool Kit that comes alogn with matlab. The point i was trying to make when i posted long ago in this thread is that 22 shrutis dont exist (these are the circle of fourths and fifths ratios that i think you were discussing in another thread). Not only that, a lot of notions about sruthi suddham etc were dispelled in the research work carried out and published by Arvindh Krishnaswamy of Stanford University. You can google and find out his IEEE publications.
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
Sorry, correction in my prev msg No #7:
Yes, 27/20 = 4/3 * 81/80 (ie, one Pramana Shruti higher), but have not heard this adjective before for ma-2 with ratio = 27/20.
Wonder why nobody pointed this out !
Pl read it as :Yes, 27/20 = 4/3 * 81/80 (ie, one Pramana Shruti higher), but have not heard this adjective before for ma with ratio = 40/27.
Yes, 27/20 = 4/3 * 81/80 (ie, one Pramana Shruti higher), but have not heard this adjective before for ma-2 with ratio = 27/20.
Wonder why nobody pointed this out !
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
14th Oct, 2008
The article : http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/22_srutis.htm states :
"Similarly, the higher ratio 81/64 (ie, > 5/4) is used in ragas like kalyANi, where the Ga is higher than in say SankarAbharaNam, but then the dissonance is masked by the use of a large shake given to the Ga."
The article : http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/22_srutis.htm states :
"Similarly, the higher ratio 81/64 (ie, > 5/4) is used in ragas like kalyANi, where the Ga is higher than in say SankarAbharaNam, but then the dissonance is masked by the use of a large shake given to the Ga."
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
Sorry, a mistake while copying from my draft.
The VS article alreadys says that the Ga in kalyANi is of ratio = 81/64.
So, pl drop the 1st query - before the 1st star-marker : "*************"
But the other 2 queries of the message still remain :
b) Ga level of Shankarabharanam
c) Pl confirm that we need to choose one of 3 ratio-values (ie, for one of G1, or G2 or G3 here) from an available choice of 4 ratios.
If yes, will it imply that we need to similarly choose one of 3 values from an available choice of 4 ratios for EACH of (R1, R2, R3), (D1, D2, D3), (N1, N2, N3) also ??
The VS article alreadys says that the Ga in kalyANi is of ratio = 81/64.
So, pl drop the 1st query - before the 1st star-marker : "*************"
But the other 2 queries of the message still remain :
b) Ga level of Shankarabharanam
c) Pl confirm that we need to choose one of 3 ratio-values (ie, for one of G1, or G2 or G3 here) from an available choice of 4 ratios.
If yes, will it imply that we need to similarly choose one of 3 values from an available choice of 4 ratios for EACH of (R1, R2, R3), (D1, D2, D3), (N1, N2, N3) also ??
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suvirmisra
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 17:05
Final Release of 22 Sruti Key board
I am releasing the final version of "22 Sruti India Keyboard" for
Vista. It is a virtual keyboard software that implements 22 srutis based upon just intonation and not upon equal temperament.
It is a Dot Net version and took some time to build it up from
scratch.
Now, I would only be working on it if some feature requests are made
by the users.
http://www.mediafire.com/?cmdmlcrii3b
Regards,
Suvir Misra
I am releasing the final version of "22 Sruti India Keyboard" for
Vista. It is a virtual keyboard software that implements 22 srutis based upon just intonation and not upon equal temperament.
It is a Dot Net version and took some time to build it up from
scratch.
Now, I would only be working on it if some feature requests are made
by the users.
http://www.mediafire.com/?cmdmlcrii3b
Regards,
Suvir Misra
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Oh... when will I learn to read?It is a Dot Net version
I really, really, try to avoid any dot net stuff, unless I really really have to have it, and preferably that version of dot net is on my system already.
Your requirement, 3.5, is not.
The experience? Starting out thinking that one is downloading a simple program, then watching it fetch a load of other stuff, including the dreaded dot net? Watching it reboot one's machine, spend something like twenty minutes apparently loading this wretched dot net, and then fighting with it to stop and give up the whole process, eventually having to hit the big red button.
Not fun. Not nice.
This is not a simple trivial install: just my viewpoint, but not recommended.
Sorry.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
POSTSCRIPT...
You can tell that my experiences with dot net in general have not been enjoyable, but I have found that if an application needs it, it is marginally better to download the required version from Microsoft and install it so it is there ready for the application.
Whenever I have had an application install itself download dot net as a pre-requisite, I have had trouble: at the very least it has been a long, long and frustrating experience.
You can tell that my experiences with dot net in general have not been enjoyable, but I have found that if an application needs it, it is marginally better to download the required version from Microsoft and install it so it is there ready for the application.
Whenever I have had an application install itself download dot net as a pre-requisite, I have had trouble: at the very least it has been a long, long and frustrating experience.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I'm so glad it wasn't just me! I feel bad to criticise what might be a great deal of work, but developers, commercial or not, just have to think of the 'customers'!
Having never done any Windows development, I do not know what the benefit of .Net is to the developer, but it really is a burden to the user.
Having never done any Windows development, I do not know what the benefit of .Net is to the developer, but it really is a burden to the user.
Last edited by Guest on 13 Mar 2009, 13:55, edited 1 time in total.
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suvirmisra
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 17:05
Well, for XP and 2000 users there is another version-
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nzm4j2mgnjj
You can download it from the above link.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nzm4j2mgnjj
You can download it from the above link.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
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suvirmisra
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 17:05
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50
I have some different perceptions about 22 srutis in our music. I would request the viewers to peruse the synopsis of my Book "The Mystic Citadel of 22 Srutis Music" and offer their valuable views please.
SYNOPSIS
A mere academic treatise focused on the modalities for employing 22 tones or 12 tones in classical music is NOT the main theme of my Book! My Study goes deeper into the very rudiments of ‘music’ in terms of tracing its origin to the pre-Vedic era and the directive principles involved in its design.
Indian ‘music culture’ seems to have permeated through several millennia of oral traditions; transcription of these traditions, however, was a relatively recent event, i.e. as late as 200 B.C. (the period of Bharata Muni and Dattila). Alas! It had been rather too late! Ambiguities and haze had already crept in and scholars of the posterity remained busy since then trying to interpret the transcripts, only to find themselves in deeper and deeper dogmatic mire.
In my Book "THE MYSTIC CITADEL OF 22 SRUTIs MUSIC"
SYNOPSIS
A mere academic treatise focused on the modalities for employing 22 tones or 12 tones in classical music is NOT the main theme of my Book! My Study goes deeper into the very rudiments of ‘music’ in terms of tracing its origin to the pre-Vedic era and the directive principles involved in its design.
Indian ‘music culture’ seems to have permeated through several millennia of oral traditions; transcription of these traditions, however, was a relatively recent event, i.e. as late as 200 B.C. (the period of Bharata Muni and Dattila). Alas! It had been rather too late! Ambiguities and haze had already crept in and scholars of the posterity remained busy since then trying to interpret the transcripts, only to find themselves in deeper and deeper dogmatic mire.
In my Book "THE MYSTIC CITADEL OF 22 SRUTIs MUSIC"
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nalini11553
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 08:19
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suvirmisra
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 17:05
"some musicologists had added an additional spin by ‘drifting’ our music towards what is known as the ‘Just Intonation’ system, by synthesizing additional swara-sthaanas based on arithmetical manipulations."
Could you be more specific.
"A mere knowledge of 22 tonalities is not adequate to resurrect our ancient musical culture of 22 srutis. This class of music is firmly founded on the built-in principle of ‘persistent consonance’ or what may be called ‘streaming melody’."
What do you mean by the terms 'persistence consonance' and 'streaming melody'??
"The ‘N-Fractions’ also have a halo of mind-boggling ‘mysticism’ around it; .."
Now, this would look more like belonging to mysticism than to any logical analyses!!
"The ‘22 tones’ as designed by our earlier civilization and as identified by me now are listed below along with their fractional values and cent values: - .."
The fractions you have given have already been identified in the scheme of "Just Intonation" in the past by various western as well as indian musicologists.
Finally, can you tell us how Swaras and Srutis are different and how are they related ??
Could you be more specific.
"A mere knowledge of 22 tonalities is not adequate to resurrect our ancient musical culture of 22 srutis. This class of music is firmly founded on the built-in principle of ‘persistent consonance’ or what may be called ‘streaming melody’."
What do you mean by the terms 'persistence consonance' and 'streaming melody'??
"The ‘N-Fractions’ also have a halo of mind-boggling ‘mysticism’ around it; .."
Now, this would look more like belonging to mysticism than to any logical analyses!!
"The ‘22 tones’ as designed by our earlier civilization and as identified by me now are listed below along with their fractional values and cent values: - .."
The fractions you have given have already been identified in the scheme of "Just Intonation" in the past by various western as well as indian musicologists.
Finally, can you tell us how Swaras and Srutis are different and how are they related ??
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suvirmisra
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 17:05
It is important NOT to obfuscate Indian music and "22 Srutis" through "verbal trapezium" .
If some body knows what the 22 Srutis are , how they are different from Swara, and how they get used in different Raga then they should come up with their own performance that is open for all to see than shroud it in 'mystical' terminology that no one understands.
If some body knows what the 22 Srutis are , how they are different from Swara, and how they get used in different Raga then they should come up with their own performance that is open for all to see than shroud it in 'mystical' terminology that no one understands.
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suvirmisra
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 17:05
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50
The issues raised are many and these are also intricate. I would therefore, start answering Nalini’s questions and then revert to Mr. Suvirmisra tomorrow. To begin with, Sruti and swara:
A sensitive human ear can perceive sound frequencies ranging from a few tens of Hertz (i.e. cycles per second) to over ten thousand Hertz. Within this spectral domain, music is characterized by its presence in terms of ‘octaves’. As per A-440 international standard, we describe a Middle octave (known as ‘madhya sthayi’ in Indian music) ranging from 261.62 Hz to 523.25 Hz; a Lower octave (i.e. ‘Mandara sthayi’) from 130.81 Hz to 261.62 Hz) and a Higher octave (i.e. ‘Tara sthayi’) from 523.25 Hz to 1046.5 Hz. It may be noted that Mother Nature had empowered ‘2’ to be the master number (i.e. middle sthayi is the ‘double’ of mandara sthayi and tara sthayi is the ‘double’ of Madhya sthayi and so on). The mathematics is simple enough so far.
But let us focus on the spectral space interior to an octave. The calibration of this intra space is again governed by ‘2’. The West calibrates the octave by dividing it "geometrically"
A sensitive human ear can perceive sound frequencies ranging from a few tens of Hertz (i.e. cycles per second) to over ten thousand Hertz. Within this spectral domain, music is characterized by its presence in terms of ‘octaves’. As per A-440 international standard, we describe a Middle octave (known as ‘madhya sthayi’ in Indian music) ranging from 261.62 Hz to 523.25 Hz; a Lower octave (i.e. ‘Mandara sthayi’) from 130.81 Hz to 261.62 Hz) and a Higher octave (i.e. ‘Tara sthayi’) from 523.25 Hz to 1046.5 Hz. It may be noted that Mother Nature had empowered ‘2’ to be the master number (i.e. middle sthayi is the ‘double’ of mandara sthayi and tara sthayi is the ‘double’ of Madhya sthayi and so on). The mathematics is simple enough so far.
But let us focus on the spectral space interior to an octave. The calibration of this intra space is again governed by ‘2’. The West calibrates the octave by dividing it "geometrically"
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50
Now let me address the clarifications being sought by Mr.Suvirmisra. The following issues have been raised by you, Sir: -
1. My perception of ‘swara’ vis-à-vis ‘sruti’.
2. How ‘Just Intonation’ system had caused ‘drifts’ from the intended trajectory of the ancient music of 22 srutis.
3. Concept of ‘persistent-consonance’ and ‘streaming melody’.
4. The phenomenon of ‘mysticism’.
5. whether the family of 22 fractions now identified by me were also identified by other musicologists of the West and the East.
6. ‘Obfuscation’ of Indian music through ‘verbal trapezium’.
7. The wisdom of demonstrating the experience of ‘22 srutis music’ in the perceptual domain in preference to the effort of resorting to discussions on the related issues in the conceptual domain.
8. The symbol of ‘Ganga descent from Heaven’ being correlated to the revelation of Gandhara-grama through 22 srutis music.
Issue No.1 (‘swara’ and ‘sruti’): May I invite your kind attention on my reply given to Nalini yesterday? In case you need further clarifications, I would be delighted to dwell more on it.
Issue No.2 (‘drift’ in the ‘intended’ trajectory of music):
After the octave is geometrically divided into 12 equal segments (say, in the Western context) and then calibrated in terms of 12 srutis, the next process is to assign the swaras in this matrix. There are two well-known systems: the Equal Temperament (ET) and Just Intonation (JI). In the ET system, 12 Notes (swaras) are conceptualized and assigned at the nodal points exactly; i.e. C at 0.00 sruti (Tonic position), C# at 1.00, D at 2.00, Eb at 3.00, E at 4.00, F at 5.00, F# at 6.00 and so on till C (octave) is placed at 12.00/ 0.00. Please note that the swaras are assigned exactly to the ‘Whole Number sruti’ positions. During the initial perusal, it would appear to anyone that the medieval musicologists of India also perceived a similar ET system; the main difference was that the octave was geometrically divided into 22 equal segments (in stead of 12) and then calibrated in terms of 22 srutis. Another difference was that only 7 Notes were visualized (as against the availability of 22 nodal points). This was known as ‘Sadja-grama’. These were assigned at the following ‘Whole Number sruti’ positions: S (Tonic) at 0.00, R at 3.00, G at 5.00, M at 9.00, P at 13.00, D at 16.00, N at 18.00 and S (octave) at 22.00/0.00). I am emphasising the term "Whole Number sruti positions"
1. My perception of ‘swara’ vis-à-vis ‘sruti’.
2. How ‘Just Intonation’ system had caused ‘drifts’ from the intended trajectory of the ancient music of 22 srutis.
3. Concept of ‘persistent-consonance’ and ‘streaming melody’.
4. The phenomenon of ‘mysticism’.
5. whether the family of 22 fractions now identified by me were also identified by other musicologists of the West and the East.
6. ‘Obfuscation’ of Indian music through ‘verbal trapezium’.
7. The wisdom of demonstrating the experience of ‘22 srutis music’ in the perceptual domain in preference to the effort of resorting to discussions on the related issues in the conceptual domain.
8. The symbol of ‘Ganga descent from Heaven’ being correlated to the revelation of Gandhara-grama through 22 srutis music.
Issue No.1 (‘swara’ and ‘sruti’): May I invite your kind attention on my reply given to Nalini yesterday? In case you need further clarifications, I would be delighted to dwell more on it.
Issue No.2 (‘drift’ in the ‘intended’ trajectory of music):
After the octave is geometrically divided into 12 equal segments (say, in the Western context) and then calibrated in terms of 12 srutis, the next process is to assign the swaras in this matrix. There are two well-known systems: the Equal Temperament (ET) and Just Intonation (JI). In the ET system, 12 Notes (swaras) are conceptualized and assigned at the nodal points exactly; i.e. C at 0.00 sruti (Tonic position), C# at 1.00, D at 2.00, Eb at 3.00, E at 4.00, F at 5.00, F# at 6.00 and so on till C (octave) is placed at 12.00/ 0.00. Please note that the swaras are assigned exactly to the ‘Whole Number sruti’ positions. During the initial perusal, it would appear to anyone that the medieval musicologists of India also perceived a similar ET system; the main difference was that the octave was geometrically divided into 22 equal segments (in stead of 12) and then calibrated in terms of 22 srutis. Another difference was that only 7 Notes were visualized (as against the availability of 22 nodal points). This was known as ‘Sadja-grama’. These were assigned at the following ‘Whole Number sruti’ positions: S (Tonic) at 0.00, R at 3.00, G at 5.00, M at 9.00, P at 13.00, D at 16.00, N at 18.00 and S (octave) at 22.00/0.00). I am emphasising the term "Whole Number sruti positions"
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nalini11553
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 08:19
the new perceptions are quite interesting. i am willing to take a book. i stay in Hyderabad. i will send my address in the e-mail address given by you. i would request u to despatch at ur earliest convenience pl. Meanwhile, can u clarify another query of mine pl? why carnatic melakarta scheme treats suddha swaras at lower srutis whereas shastriya sangeet schemes consider suddha swaras at higher sruti values?
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50
Issue No.3 raised by Mr.Suvirmisra, (Concept of persistent consonance and streaming melody:
As per my Study, ‘swaras’ would be melodious only if they are simple fractions. The entire family of 22 swara variants now identified by me are ‘simple fractions’ (I had named them "N-Fractions"
As per my Study, ‘swaras’ would be melodious only if they are simple fractions. The entire family of 22 swara variants now identified by me are ‘simple fractions’ (I had named them "N-Fractions"
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50
Issue-5, raised by Mr.Suvirmisra, (whether the family of 22 fractions had been already identified by the musicologists of the West and the east?)
I have mentioned earlier that the ancient music of 22 srutis is a heritage that is common to everyone at the very global level. However, due to collapse of the originating civilization (for some reasons not known to me) and the onset of a subsequent cultural ‘primitivity’ and darkness, plenty of details got buried under the hard encrustations of the past. For these reasons, musical history (similar to what is stated by Bacon) has become ‘something like the planks of a ship wreck; more of the past is lost than has been saved’. On these available assets, the West had also tried ‘grama-transformation’ type processes and the ‘murchana-type’ processes giving rise to their famous seven ancient ‘modes’ of melody (as against ‘14’ in our case). In the bargain, they have also partly unearthed some simple fractions by chance and they had been using them in their classical music for long. For example, the fractions 11/10 (Minor Second), 9/8 (Major Second), 6/5 (Minor Third), 5/4 (Major Third) and so on were in use in their conventional classical music. However, I found that due to some ‘flaws’ in their perception of the prescribed formulae, they couldn’t crack the codes properly. Therefore, they had missed on an opportunity to unravel the family of 22 srutis which had been ‘seeded’ in the literature! Similarly, medieval Indian musicologists also faltered due to their inability to handle the code-breaking keys; therefore, they also lost on the opportunity to unravel the ‘cultural wealth of the past’ being passed down from generation to generation, in coded formats. Music therefore, assumed a tangential route vis-à-vis the ‘intended’ trajectory! However, some assets of ‘simple fractions’ had come down to them in piece-meal (i.e. delinked from the concept of a ‘family of simple fractions’). Some of these are: 9/8 (chatur-sruti Rishabha of Carnatic and suddha Rishabha of Shastriya sangeet), 6/5 (komal Gandhar), 5/4 (Suddha Gandhar), 4/3 (Suddha Madhyam in both traditions), 3/2 (Panchama in both traditions), 8/5 (Komal Dhaivat), and 9/5 (Komal Nishad). Shastriya Sangeet had inherited more number of ‘simple fractions’ than the Carnatic style! The contemporary musicologists (like Prof Sambamurthy of South) have derived some ‘simple fractions’ such as 10/9 (Rishabha-3), 6/5 (Gandhara-2), 5/4 (Gandhara-3), 8/5 (Dhaivata-2), 5/3 (Dhaivata-3), 9/5 and (Nishada-2) by applying some variant of the JI system. However, the other fractions derived by them are quite complex and do not belong to the "family of 22 srutis"
I have mentioned earlier that the ancient music of 22 srutis is a heritage that is common to everyone at the very global level. However, due to collapse of the originating civilization (for some reasons not known to me) and the onset of a subsequent cultural ‘primitivity’ and darkness, plenty of details got buried under the hard encrustations of the past. For these reasons, musical history (similar to what is stated by Bacon) has become ‘something like the planks of a ship wreck; more of the past is lost than has been saved’. On these available assets, the West had also tried ‘grama-transformation’ type processes and the ‘murchana-type’ processes giving rise to their famous seven ancient ‘modes’ of melody (as against ‘14’ in our case). In the bargain, they have also partly unearthed some simple fractions by chance and they had been using them in their classical music for long. For example, the fractions 11/10 (Minor Second), 9/8 (Major Second), 6/5 (Minor Third), 5/4 (Major Third) and so on were in use in their conventional classical music. However, I found that due to some ‘flaws’ in their perception of the prescribed formulae, they couldn’t crack the codes properly. Therefore, they had missed on an opportunity to unravel the family of 22 srutis which had been ‘seeded’ in the literature! Similarly, medieval Indian musicologists also faltered due to their inability to handle the code-breaking keys; therefore, they also lost on the opportunity to unravel the ‘cultural wealth of the past’ being passed down from generation to generation, in coded formats. Music therefore, assumed a tangential route vis-à-vis the ‘intended’ trajectory! However, some assets of ‘simple fractions’ had come down to them in piece-meal (i.e. delinked from the concept of a ‘family of simple fractions’). Some of these are: 9/8 (chatur-sruti Rishabha of Carnatic and suddha Rishabha of Shastriya sangeet), 6/5 (komal Gandhar), 5/4 (Suddha Gandhar), 4/3 (Suddha Madhyam in both traditions), 3/2 (Panchama in both traditions), 8/5 (Komal Dhaivat), and 9/5 (Komal Nishad). Shastriya Sangeet had inherited more number of ‘simple fractions’ than the Carnatic style! The contemporary musicologists (like Prof Sambamurthy of South) have derived some ‘simple fractions’ such as 10/9 (Rishabha-3), 6/5 (Gandhara-2), 5/4 (Gandhara-3), 8/5 (Dhaivata-2), 5/3 (Dhaivata-3), 9/5 and (Nishada-2) by applying some variant of the JI system. However, the other fractions derived by them are quite complex and do not belong to the "family of 22 srutis"
Last edited by SREENI NAMBIRAJAN on 01 Oct 2009, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50
Now let me address the latest query raised by Naliniji as to why the Shudh swaras considered by the Shastriya sangeet traditions and the Carnatic traditions are at variance.
During my Study, I realized that the musicological schools held differences in view even during the days of Bharata and Dattila, i.e. as early as 200 B.C. As per the medieval musicological literature, Sadja-grama was the oldest format available to the musicologists. As per this format, the net content of 22 srutis within the octave were distributed to the swaras in this manner: Sadja-4, Rishab-3, Gandhar- 2, Madhyam- 4, Pancham- 4, Dhaivat- 3, Nishad- 2. The ancient text did not specify as to whether these ‘sruti’ values should precede or follow the assigned swara-sthanas. Bharata gave over-riding priority for swaras and therefore held that srutis should follow the assigned swara-sthanas. Accordingly, when the Sadja (Tonic) is assigned at the reference position of 0.00, it extends upto the sruti value of 4.00. From here, Rishabh starts and extends upto 7.00; Gandhar starts at 7.00 and ends at 9.00; Madhyam starts at 9.00 and ends at 13.00; Pancham starts at 13.00 and extends upto 17.00; Dhaivat starts at 17.00 and ends at 20.00; Nishad starts at 20.00 and ends at 22.00. Shastriya Sangeet seems to have adopted this interpretation. That’s how Shudh Rishabh is placed at 4.00 (to be more exact: fraction 9/8, having the sruti value of 3.74, subsequent JI modifications). Similarly, Shudh Gandhar is at 7.00 (fraction 5/4, at JI sruti value of 7.08); Shudh Madhyam at 9.00 (fraction 4/3, at the JI sruti value of 9.13); Pancham at 13.00 (fraction 3/2, at the Ji sruti value of 12.87); Shudh Dhaivat at 17.00 (fraction, 27/16, at the JI sruti value of 16.61), Shudh Nishad at 20.00 (fraction 15/8, at the JI sruti value of 19.95).
However, the Carnatic traditions seem to have adopted Dattila’s school. As per this School, swara follows the sruti; i.e. when the Sadja (Tonic) is assigned at 0.00; it is already occupying its highest sruti value of 4. The srutis of Rishabh, therefore, starts from 0.00 and extends upto 3.00 which is the seat of Rishabh swara. Gandhar srutis start from 3.00 and extend upto 5.00 which is the seat of Gandhar. Madhyam srutis start from 5.00 and extend upto 9.00 which is the seat of Madhyam; Pancham srutis start from 9.00 and extends upto 13.00 which is the seat of Pancham. Dhaivat starts from 13.00 and extends upto 16.00 which is the seat of Dhaivat. Nishad starts from 16.00 and extends upto 18.00 which is the seat of Nishad. The srutis of Sadja (octave) starts from 18.00 and extend upto 22.00/0.00 which is the seat of Sadja. That’s how when Venkatamakhin of South formulated the new Melakarta scheme during the 17th century A.D., he assigned the values: Sadja- 0.00, Suddha Rishabha- 3.00, Suddha Gandhara- 5.00, Suddha Madhyama- 9.00, Panchama- 13.00, Suddha Dhaivata- 16.00, Suddha Nishada- 18.00 and back to Sadja (Octave)- 22.00/0.00. However, contemporary Carnatic traditions have modified their swara positions based a JI system during the 20th century. Therefore, the re-assignment of values for Suddha swaras are found modified as: Suddha Rishabha- 1.65 srutis (fraction-256/243), Suddha Gandhara- 3.74 srutis (fraction 9/8), Suddha Madhyama- 9.13 srutis (fraction 4/3), Panchama- 12.87 srutis (fraction 3/2), Suddha Dhaivata- 14.52 srutis (fraction 128/81) and Suddha Nishada- 16.61 srutis (fraction 27/16).
The term ‘Suddha’ or ‘Shudh’ indicates that these are the original ‘Prakritic swaras’ directly derived from the Sama Veda (i.e. the Sadja-grama format) whereas the other swara-variants are described ‘Vikrta swaras’ (i.e. man-made; synthesized by inflexions over the Prakritic swaras).
During my Study, I realized that the musicological schools held differences in view even during the days of Bharata and Dattila, i.e. as early as 200 B.C. As per the medieval musicological literature, Sadja-grama was the oldest format available to the musicologists. As per this format, the net content of 22 srutis within the octave were distributed to the swaras in this manner: Sadja-4, Rishab-3, Gandhar- 2, Madhyam- 4, Pancham- 4, Dhaivat- 3, Nishad- 2. The ancient text did not specify as to whether these ‘sruti’ values should precede or follow the assigned swara-sthanas. Bharata gave over-riding priority for swaras and therefore held that srutis should follow the assigned swara-sthanas. Accordingly, when the Sadja (Tonic) is assigned at the reference position of 0.00, it extends upto the sruti value of 4.00. From here, Rishabh starts and extends upto 7.00; Gandhar starts at 7.00 and ends at 9.00; Madhyam starts at 9.00 and ends at 13.00; Pancham starts at 13.00 and extends upto 17.00; Dhaivat starts at 17.00 and ends at 20.00; Nishad starts at 20.00 and ends at 22.00. Shastriya Sangeet seems to have adopted this interpretation. That’s how Shudh Rishabh is placed at 4.00 (to be more exact: fraction 9/8, having the sruti value of 3.74, subsequent JI modifications). Similarly, Shudh Gandhar is at 7.00 (fraction 5/4, at JI sruti value of 7.08); Shudh Madhyam at 9.00 (fraction 4/3, at the JI sruti value of 9.13); Pancham at 13.00 (fraction 3/2, at the Ji sruti value of 12.87); Shudh Dhaivat at 17.00 (fraction, 27/16, at the JI sruti value of 16.61), Shudh Nishad at 20.00 (fraction 15/8, at the JI sruti value of 19.95).
However, the Carnatic traditions seem to have adopted Dattila’s school. As per this School, swara follows the sruti; i.e. when the Sadja (Tonic) is assigned at 0.00; it is already occupying its highest sruti value of 4. The srutis of Rishabh, therefore, starts from 0.00 and extends upto 3.00 which is the seat of Rishabh swara. Gandhar srutis start from 3.00 and extend upto 5.00 which is the seat of Gandhar. Madhyam srutis start from 5.00 and extend upto 9.00 which is the seat of Madhyam; Pancham srutis start from 9.00 and extends upto 13.00 which is the seat of Pancham. Dhaivat starts from 13.00 and extends upto 16.00 which is the seat of Dhaivat. Nishad starts from 16.00 and extends upto 18.00 which is the seat of Nishad. The srutis of Sadja (octave) starts from 18.00 and extend upto 22.00/0.00 which is the seat of Sadja. That’s how when Venkatamakhin of South formulated the new Melakarta scheme during the 17th century A.D., he assigned the values: Sadja- 0.00, Suddha Rishabha- 3.00, Suddha Gandhara- 5.00, Suddha Madhyama- 9.00, Panchama- 13.00, Suddha Dhaivata- 16.00, Suddha Nishada- 18.00 and back to Sadja (Octave)- 22.00/0.00. However, contemporary Carnatic traditions have modified their swara positions based a JI system during the 20th century. Therefore, the re-assignment of values for Suddha swaras are found modified as: Suddha Rishabha- 1.65 srutis (fraction-256/243), Suddha Gandhara- 3.74 srutis (fraction 9/8), Suddha Madhyama- 9.13 srutis (fraction 4/3), Panchama- 12.87 srutis (fraction 3/2), Suddha Dhaivata- 14.52 srutis (fraction 128/81) and Suddha Nishada- 16.61 srutis (fraction 27/16).
The term ‘Suddha’ or ‘Shudh’ indicates that these are the original ‘Prakritic swaras’ directly derived from the Sama Veda (i.e. the Sadja-grama format) whereas the other swara-variants are described ‘Vikrta swaras’ (i.e. man-made; synthesized by inflexions over the Prakritic swaras).
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suvirmisra
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
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nalini11553
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 08:19
I had perused your replies addressed to Mr. Suvir. They are quite illuminating. In addition, I have also perused your blogs and presentation slides in the net, on various issues related to ancient musicology. I admit that although the reading of your Book ‘The Mystic Citadel of 22 Srutis Music’ was tough initially, with the help of your blogs, I am able to comprehend your views much better now. I have never come across such new perceptions even in our literature; you seem to have done plenty of original research work. Aren’t you spreading awareness among the music lovers by giving more lecture-presentations and also looking for some sponsors? This is only a suggestion for your consideration please. Meanwhile, without waiting for Suvir’s response to your earlier posts, I would like to raise another query, with your kind permission. We have been speaking so much about sruti and swara. The distinction between them as explained by you seems to be confined to the musicological domain only. From the rasikas point of view, how does this distinction influence music in the performance-oriented practical domain?
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VK RAMAN
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http://www.acidplanet.com/components/em ... 9912&T=782 - please critique this rendition vis a vis sruti
Last edited by VK RAMAN on 21 May 2009, 01:21, edited 1 time in total.
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
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Dear Mr.Raman,
i am not sure as to whether your last post is addressed to me. I wish to clarify that my work pertains to the Ancient Music of 22 Srutis and therefore, I would like to reserve my comments pertaining to a musical piece composed on contemporary music. However, I am confident that some experts in our contemporary state of the art would clarify your query soon.
i am not sure as to whether your last post is addressed to me. I wish to clarify that my work pertains to the Ancient Music of 22 Srutis and therefore, I would like to reserve my comments pertaining to a musical piece composed on contemporary music. However, I am confident that some experts in our contemporary state of the art would clarify your query soon.
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50
Mr.Raman,
i have recently gone over the crucial stage of special instrumentation for 22 srutis music, in the form of a vina and a family of harmoniums. I have also structured adequate musical phrases that obey the laws governing this class of music. However, i couldn't identify a suitable volunteer who could perform on these instruments skillfully and implement my composed music, flawlessly. It is pertinent to note that our contemporary classical music is relatively much less 'structured' as compared to our ancient music of 22 tones. But the challenges encountered while performing on 22 srutis music, in my view, is just a passing phase. As and when artists get oriented to these 'structures', performance capabilities would improve and we should be able to listen to a new class of music which is 'quantum jump' from the exisiting music culture.
I hope to get a breakthrough soon with the help of some well-wishers. i would certainly make it a point to forward such an audio clip to you at the earliest opportunity. May i have your e-mail contact pl? Meanwhile, i am engaged in the process generating awareness among the music lovers regarding the conceptual aspects of our ancient music of 22 srutis and to clarify to them as to what is so special and unique about this ancient music. If you so desire, i can forward the necessary links of my 'blogs' and 'presentation slides' which are already placed on the net in the public domain.
i have recently gone over the crucial stage of special instrumentation for 22 srutis music, in the form of a vina and a family of harmoniums. I have also structured adequate musical phrases that obey the laws governing this class of music. However, i couldn't identify a suitable volunteer who could perform on these instruments skillfully and implement my composed music, flawlessly. It is pertinent to note that our contemporary classical music is relatively much less 'structured' as compared to our ancient music of 22 tones. But the challenges encountered while performing on 22 srutis music, in my view, is just a passing phase. As and when artists get oriented to these 'structures', performance capabilities would improve and we should be able to listen to a new class of music which is 'quantum jump' from the exisiting music culture.
I hope to get a breakthrough soon with the help of some well-wishers. i would certainly make it a point to forward such an audio clip to you at the earliest opportunity. May i have your e-mail contact pl? Meanwhile, i am engaged in the process generating awareness among the music lovers regarding the conceptual aspects of our ancient music of 22 srutis and to clarify to them as to what is so special and unique about this ancient music. If you so desire, i can forward the necessary links of my 'blogs' and 'presentation slides' which are already placed on the net in the public domain.
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suvirmisra
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 17:05
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50