Tamizh Isai

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jun 2005, 09:16

Coolkarni has posted an interesting speech by TRS in the context of Tamizh Isai (and in this context referring to CM) and has invited us to discuss the topic so that non-tamils also may understand the issues and implications. Though the speech is short TRS makes a very important observation. There are still current composers in Tamil whereas they are lacking in other languages. He of course refers to BMK who is an outstanding composer in Telugu ( and I would say as well in Tamil). There is still Thulasivanam who has been composing excellent songs in Malayalam. I am sure there are good living composers in Kannada too. Hence in my view TRS is not quite correct. But the issue of Tamil songs being sung in concerts is important from the point of view of survival of CM in TN. In my view the reason Tamil songs are not sung in contrast with Telugu is due to the lack of musical component in the Tamil kritis. The latterday Telugu composers were inspired by Trinity whose music forms the foundation of CM. In my view we enjoy Trinity for the music and not for the language of the compositions. TN has to produce outstanding "musicians" if ever we have to stake a claim for Tamil in the CM pedastal. Excellent composers in the past like Ambujam Krishna, P Thooran etc did not make a mark since they were not CM musicians. There is a promising breed of young musicians coming up in TN but unfortunately they are not composers. It is like the classical story of Lakshmi and Sarasvati not residing together. Perhaps the time has not come. In the mean time let us enjoy CM which is our common heritage ,without worrying about the language since CM by whatever language it is sung still sounds sweet.

Do please add your comments!

poongavur · Post by **poongavur** » 27 Jun 2005, 09:49

When he says Tamil songs are verbose, TRS seems to suggest that the problem is with the language itself. cmlover, however, seems to suggest that it has more to do with the lack musical kritis, due to a paucity of talented composers. I think one may be the reason for the other. I am interested to hear what others think.

I agree with you that it is much better to be able to understand the kriti.

I always wondered (but never -- until now -- had the courage to ask) why the Trinity, all of whom were born, raised, and lived in Tamil Nadu, did not compose in Tamil. Perhaps there is a reason for their choices, may be something to do with the language structure, etc.

poongavur · Post by **poongavur** » 27 Jun 2005, 10:06

On 2nd thoughts, OVS has composed many superb kritis in Tamil (just finished downloading Thaye Yasode and am listening to it -- Thank you coolkarni, it is total ecstacy with Somu and LGJ). Then there is Papanasam Sivan.

So may be it is just we haven't had good luck with composers in Tamil.

kutty · Post by **kutty** » 27 Jun 2005, 23:10

Just now, I have come across this section after a long pause. I would like to offer my humble views, with due apologies to all learned members.

01. Music has no barriers like language, caste, creed, religion, regios etc etc

02. There is no use of decrying our own language and at the same time there is no use to be a fanatic

03. A krithi or song is liked for its janaranjakam like melody, bhaavam, tempo with which it is sung, the selection of words,
the raagam, the presentation etc etc. There is no use of cursing the ring if one does not know how to dance. Even a mediocre song/krithi can be made lovable if the singer follows the above norms.

04. In Thamizhnaadu we have been very hospitable in encouraging people of all regions to come up except our own kith and kins. That is why Thamizh songs have never become popular

05. Those who shed crocodile tears for Thamizh are the actual culprits becuse they have never done anything for the language but show as if they are the only guardians of Thamizh

06. If we take other southern states into consideration, especially Keralaa, we can observe that they show more interest in Thamizh krithis and songs than we do. Do we sing a Malayaalam or Kannada krithi or song in all concerts as they do?

07. In my opinion there are plenty of beautiful compositions in Thamizh which are not popularised. Unfortunately we sing Thirukkural, Thiruvaachakam etc that do not fall under the CM scales just to appease those who pretend to be the guardians of Thamizh

08. For that matter, how many of us sing Purndara Dhaasar's krithis even though he is considered as the Sangeetha Pithaamaha. Had he had any training in CM like the trinity or was he born in a family of musicians?

09. Generally whether the person is trained or untrained, it is a gift given to him to compose like Yogi Shudhdhanandha Bhaarathiyaar, Maayooram Vaedhanaayakam Pillai, Paapanaasham Shivan, Gopaalakrishna Bhaarathiyaar, Maarimuththaa Pillai, Muththuththaandavar, Kavi Kunjara Bhaarathi, Koteeshwara Iyer, Harikaeshanalloor Muththaiaah Bhaagavathar, Neelakanta Shivan, Raamaswamy shivan, Paapavinaasha Mudhaliaar, Periaswamy Thooran, Arunaachalakaviraayar,OVS, MBK, LGJ, Thanjaavoor Shankara Iyer et al - the list is endless. What they do is either just compose the krithi/song, leaving the notations for others to make or themselves make both. It is an injustice that because they have not made the notations or selected the raagams because they were untrained in CM, they should be discarded.

10. Let us really promote Thamizh, unlike the politicians, whole heartedly without crticizing or without acting fanatically but by just selecting good krithis/songs and singing in all concerts. Let us also encourage those who are unsung heroes in this area and patronise their krithis/songs as the old Maharaajaas did in the case of the trinities.

kutty

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 28 Jun 2005, 08:43

The songs of OVS, and Arunachala Kavi are outstanding examples of very erudite compositions that have enriched our musical world. OVKs song brim with music and dance and are extremely upbeat, and in my opinion, some of the very best songs ever composed. A predecessor of the trinity, he was the first to use the phrase 'guruguha' in his 'Ekadhantha vinAyakam BajAmI' composition. His phrase 'chandra sUrya nayanA' to describe krishNA has been used by many subsequent composers. He has come with some absolutely delightful gems of ideas: he wonders if '(krishNan udaiya) mOna ezhil kaNa nANi, vAna madhi Anadhu anji, mUla nAdhan shadai pOnadhO?'
thAyE yashOdhA is one of a trilogy that could probably be a parody on the profusion of judge Judy shows in American TV: I like to think of it as 'gOkulathil Judge yashOdhA'. Some of it is actually covered in the Kuzhalosai track of NKB's harikatha.
The gOpI's complain in 'thAyE yashOdhA', krishNA defends himself in 'illai illai illai ammA' and yashOdhA delivers her judgement in 'pOngaladI'. Each one of these compositions is great. It is unfortunate that only 'thAyE yashOdhA' is sung in concerts, and that too just a couple of charaNams: there are more interesting ones than the commonly sung ones, and I wish someone would sing them.
Similarly, in Arunachala Kavi's Ramanatakam, one of my favorites is a conversation between Parasurama and Rama accusing each other of having committed the sin of killing a woman (Parasurama is guilty of matricide, while Rama of- course, is accused of killing Tatakai). The song 'mannil arasarai pOl thOnrugirAyE' is an extremely witty song!
If I could figure out how to upload songs from my mac, I have several of OVKs and Arunachala Kavi's songs that I would love to share: 'yAm petra inbam, ivvayagam peruga'!
Ravi Shankar

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jun 2005, 09:14

Great going rshankar

I agree with you cent percent on OVK and Arunaachala kavi. I am a fan of TNS who sings Arunaachala Kavi occassionaly and also his rendering of Kamban as a viruttam. Do please upload your gems for all of us to appreciate (hope somebody here can help you with the mac-connection).

chithra · Post by **chithra** » 28 Jun 2005, 10:00

Ravi Shankar, I use a mac too - would love to help you, if I can. Let me know your questions here, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

Chithra

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 28 Jun 2005, 23:06

Chithra,
GREAT to hear another mac user! How do I upload songs? When I try yo get the songs from my iTunes library (they are all in the preferred iTunes format of AAC - .m4a) this is what happens:
First, I see the the upload progress bar that is usually black with red letters saying 'no upload in progress', and under that a button to choose a file. I click on that and browse the HD and choose a song from the iTunes library, and then I click 'upload', and I see the MBs that have been uploaded in the progress bar, and when all of the file has been uploaded, I abruptly see the progress bar have 'no upload in progress' again, and I do not get any download links or secret delete links. I suspect that I am unwittingly guilty of some stupid omission or commission here! ANY HELP will be appreciated!
Ravi Shankar

meena · Post by **meena** » 28 Jun 2005, 23:22

rshankar,
ur doing it right, pay no heed to the message 'no upload in progress', when the u/l is done,(in this case when u see 'the message again') just scroll down the page u will see the d/l links and secret delete links.

chithra · Post by **chithra** » 29 Jun 2005, 09:46

Hi Ravi:

Do just what Meena says - ignore the message on the upload progress bar, click on browse to locate your files and open them, then upload them, and when it is done scroll down to get the URL for downloads, and the delete key. Good luck,

Chithra

chithra · Post by **chithra** » 29 Jun 2005, 10:29

This is my 2 cents worth, with due apologies to all learned folks here, if I am in error or if I offend them:

I believe people like Dandapani Desigar were instrumental in bringing Tamizh compositions to the fore in the early years of the Music dept. at Annamalai University, which had a stellar music faculty. Also, Papanasam Sivan is not called Tamizh Thyagaraja for nothing. Likewise, the compositions of Neelakantan Sivan, Muthu Thandavar, Marimutha Pillai are truly outstanding. So, I would not quite agree with the suggestion that Tamizh compostions are not musical.

AS CML pointed out many modern Tamizh composers are not musicians. Not only must the poetry folow rules of metre, Yadhugai, Monai etc., but the phrases in the poem itself must be musically amenable, with respect to Ragam and thaalam, eduppu etc. Otherwise, you have an awkward, unmusical and (perhaps) verbose piece at hand. Even, HMB, who was a musician and a Harikatha exponent is guilty of this in some of his compositions.

I believe that Thyagaraja Swamy and Syama Sasthry composed in those languages where they could express their fervour, devotion etc. most ardently. After all, in our moments of emotion, we revert to out native language, don't we?

OVS's compositions are lovely in every aspect, IMHO. However, their verbose nature does not leave much room for sangathy development or niraival. Perhaps because of this not many have gained prominence.

How about the innumerable Thrupugazh - in exquisite Tamizh, which are verily the repository of Thaalam? And, the Thevarams, Pasurams etc. were composed to music by our musician saints, in the musical PANNS..we have such a wealth of Tamizh music.

In my experience (I sing), I have not found non-Tamilians interested in learning Tamizh pieces. On the other hand Tamilians appear to have no language bar. Like the current tendency to sing Himdusthani Bhajans, Marthy Abhangs etc. - obviously Tamilians are very catholic in their repertoire

BTW, who sings Thirukkural to music? Mayuram Viswanatha Sasthry had set some parts to music, but I have never heard the audio...

Chithra

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Jun 2005, 21:37

TNS has tuned Kambar in scintillating ragas, verses which were not originally written for singing. Hence it is clear that in the hands of an expert musician the words (or language) don't matter. HMB and SSI tuned most of Swati and their genius is evident in those compositions. Lalgudi's compositions are pure and distilled CM. Hence the need for a strong CM background is very important to compose songs in any language. P Sivan mostly used Thyagaraja as a template and his own genius is also evident. Nilakanta Sivan has done some excellent compositions but they have yet to be brought into limelight. We need musicians of the calibre of Somu, MDR to bring to life Tamil verses. Present day youngsters are too busy except for Ravikiran who is trying to revive OVK. The main hurdle is public awareness. ASK AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU

let us ask; nay, clamour and then the performers will respond!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 29 Jun 2005, 22:31

I believe people like Dandapani Desigar were instrumental in bringing Tamizh compositions to the fore in the early years of the Music dept. at Annamalai University,

a nice duet of MM Dandapani Desikar and TK Rangachari

: http://rapidshare.de/files/2684072/MMD- ... m.mp3.html

chithra · Post by **chithra** » 29 Jun 2005, 22:57

Dear Sri Coolkarni:

This is wonderful - I immensely enjoy both these musicians. Many thanks, again.

Could you please tell me if MMDD / TKR / V. V. Sadagopan's music, pasurams etc. are available commercially?

Do you have anything of / by V. V. Sadagopan - the man isChithra surrounded by mystery?

poongavur · Post by **poongavur** » 30 Jun 2005, 02:45

Hence it is clear that in the hands of an expert musician the words (or language) don't matter.

Absoltely.

However, my problem is that it is very difficult to understand lyrics in, say, Telugu. I am able to enjoy at a much higher level kritis by OVS, Sivan, Barathiar because I can understand. Kritis of MD, Swati, etc (in Sanskrit) I struggle and somehow manage to comprehend, still a bit problematic. But with those of T, I enjoy the melody but that is it, unfortunately. May be I ought to learn Telugu

May be some of you faced similar issues and have devised a way (other than learning the language) to get over this hurdle. I would appreciate your thoughts.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Jun 2005, 03:12

Until I hear about tracks from commercial CDs I am not very comfortable posting stuff, but this is the deliciously witty song from aruNAchala kavI's rAmanAtakam that I wrote about earlier. I cannot resist posting it! It is one of 3 songs that signifies the end of bAlakAndam. I heard of these songs first in a Harikatha by krupAnandha vAriar, titled 'kamban kAnAdha rAmAyaNa kAtshigaL'! The artiste here is Nityashree:
http://rapidshare.de/files/2690262/11_t ... N.m4a.html

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Jun 2005, 03:18

Does any one (maybe Kulkarni sa'ab who seems to be an inexhaustable sAgaram brimming with musical gems) have the songs from MSS's famous Tamizh Isai concert in the 40s? I seem to remember that it was the first Tamizh Isai concert: Is that correct?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Jun 2005, 03:48

Congratulations rshankar!
Fine u/l. It is a sweet rendering by Nityasree. kripaananda vaariaar again enders it with great humour indeed.

Those of you who have Windows Pc, note that the m4a files can be played by your real player.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 30 Jun 2005, 04:36

famous Tamizh Isai concert in the 40s?

negative.
will check up with raju(of x drive fame) though.
as far as MMD is concerned, a lot of progress has been made >just organising myself for these.
TKR ,lots of concerts are already in the public domain-i mean the mp3 cd collectors-that should not be a problem.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 12 Aug 2006, 22:06

I skimmed through this thread.

"always wondered (but never -- until now -- had the courage to ask) why the Trinity, all of whom were born, raised, and lived in Tamil Nadu, did not compose in Tamil."

Just pointing out Syama Sastri composed 2 pieces in Thamizh.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Aug 2006, 22:29

They were primarily comfortable in Telugu as a mother tongue or household language. Thyagaraja was never comfortable enough in Tamil to be able to compose. Again 'thoughts' occurred to him natutally in Telugu and he automatically vocalized them! Same was true for sastri too to some extent! MD was most comfortable in Sanskrit and the verses again came to him naturally. All three were well versed in the grammar of CM and the 'words' were only a vehicle to let out their thoughts in a 'musical language'! Similarly OVK thought naturally in Tamil and expressed himself musically. Unfortunately his music is lost owing to the lack of 'sishya parampara' (and maybe he was considered a weirdo during his times!)

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 12 Aug 2006, 22:42

Dikshithar's sanskrit is so smooth. He did compose item(s) in Mani Pravalam btw.

There are some rare OVK pieces that are around, just not sung or taught much. But finally, my nagging is being heard, Vijay Siva being one of the few to popularise some ones we never/hardly ever hear. DKJ knew quite a few apparently, and so did TNS. Likewise, Sowmya popularises a lot of Bharathiyar's songs, mainly in the rAgAs in which Bharathi composed them originally - usually not the retuned items.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 07 Jan 2007, 03:15

Regarding Posts# 20 and 22:

Syama Sastry composed 5 Thamizh songs.
1. paramukhamEnamma (kalyANi)
2.taruNam IdammA (gauLipantu)
3. ennEramum un pAda (punnAgavarALi)
4. santatam ennai (paras)
5. ennEramum un nAmam (pUrvikalyANi)

MD composed only two kritis in maNipravALam
1. srI abhayAmbhA (sRI)
2. ??

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Jan 2007, 03:19

mahakavi wrote:MD composed only two kritis in maNipravALam
1. srI abhayAmbhA (sRI)
2. ??

nI sATi deivamu - a varNam, IIRC

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Jan 2007, 03:28

No. nI sATi is in chaste telugu. The other maNipravALa kRti is "venkaTAcalapatE ninnu nammiti" in kAnaDa

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Jan 2007, 04:40

DRS,
Thanks...

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 08 Jan 2007, 07:41

venkatAchalapatE in karnATaka kApi, is a maqnipravAla kriti of MD

-Ramakriya