Singing Instrumentalist

[twister]

Hi all,

Please could anyone experienced comment the following thought:

1. Is it an insistent need for an instrumentalist to sing what he is playing? I know this practice is widespread but is it truly necessary - for the professional instrumentalist at first?

2. If so (and, even if not so, really), is it useful (usable) to use the mnemonic syllables on Carnatic swaram for this?

And, may be, some more suggestions on the subject?..

Thank you!

[ganesh_mourthy]

very very important. me a bit out of sorts today. So, I shall elaborate on this subject tomorrow.

[twister]

very very important. me a bit out of sorts today. So, I shall elaborate on this subject tomorrow.

So, you too think, that there is a body-speech-mind triad participating in the whole creative process? Where body plays, mind rules and the speech mumbles swaram

Hope, that you're all right!

And, please give me some keys for the practice if you have.

Thank you!

[ganesh_mourthy]

Hi twister, me still not back to norm . Away from home on an assignment. Yet I have some time for my inputs.

Why should you sing the song with lyrics and it is after all music. How does it help?

The answer is for a simple mnemonic reason.

I remember once cramming 2 krithis in succession with only notes and not the lyrics. I did not know the lyrics at all.

the first one was Vachaspathi ------the song Kandachoodumi

and the second one was nagaswarawali ------ garuda gamana.


but I would often initially have problems with the charanams of both and get confused between them.

the vachaspathi charanam goes like this

pa pa pa ; pa ma pa dha;


and the nagaswarawali charanam goes like this


P P P mpmgm.....

since both starts with the same pa and I learnt it one after another I had this confusion and sometimes take of with the wrong charanam and realize it after a second. But this would not happen if you use the lyrics as mnemonics.

but once the song is set in your mind as you play you may tend to forget the song but the tune remains and the song remains too but vaguely. then it is not a problem.

So whether you sing it off key or perfect no problem( perfect is better) .but better sing it or at least hum it in order to get it into your mind.

hope it helps .

All the best

[srikant1987]

Also, people who know a song already can "read" the lyrics you're playing. Unless you know the lyrics yourself at least as well as they do, you will get caught.

[ganesh_mourthy]

very true srikanth.

[twister]

Thank you!

And, some clarification is needed, please.

So, is it enough to me (when i "stick" to a certain raga) to keep in mind just Sa-Ri-Ga-Ma-Pa-etc, OR I should obligatory distinguish swaras? For example, should I sing Sa-Ra-Gi-Mi-Pa for the appropriate raga, or - again - just Sa-Ra-Ga...?

Thanks again

[ganesh_mourthy]

twister what were you trying to ask in your last thread????

[suma]

Twister - Singing the krithi makes the playing of the instrument enjoyable as you can relate to the song and enjoy the bhakti and bhavam in that. Imagine if all one does is do gmpd...grgm...etc etc all along the concert and dont know any lyrics. Singing makes one enjoy the beauty of the song while performing on the instrument. You dont have to hum or sing loud..just having the flow of the song in the mind while you play is enjoyable. For a beginner, who is trying to learn an instrument, lyrics are not as essential as they are trying to get a grip on the instrument. So knowing the positions of the notes like in alankaram are important and would be the first step. But once you are in concert level or even advanced level, if you know the lyrics, you will enjoy what you play and the time spent is meaningful.

[vasanthakokilam]

BTW, the topic of this thread is singing the verses and not the solfa symbols. I think twister is asking a question related to vocalizing the solfa symbols. Normally people use the same 7 symbols no matter which swaram R, G, M, D, N are used. So there are only 7. But there is another scheme where there are 16 symbols used with RA, RI, RU, GA, GI GU etc. That is an interesting question. May be using the separate ones for practise helps in getting proper swarasthana knowledge and swaratha suddham. If we use the 16 symbol one, the question of 'which R is that?' would not occur.

[Suji Ram]

May be using the separate ones for practise helps in getting proper swarasthana knowledge and swaratha suddham. If we use the 16 symbol one, the question of 'which R is that?' would not occur.

this would be like learning a new language...

what if you still sing Sa ru gu ma di... and still be not in the correct swarasthana!

[vasanthakokilam]

Suji, understood. It is a new language but a very close cousin. I also see that it would not fly during kalpanaswaram. But our brains put mnemonics to great use. Based on that, my speculation is, if we use different solfa symbols for different swarathanams, the brain may have an easier time to bring that into the correct swarasthanam.

[suma]

what are these solfa symbols?

[vasanthakokilam]

I have seen them represented like this.
Sa,
Ra, Ri, Ru
Ga, Gi, Gu
Ma, Mi
Pa
da,di,du
na,ni,nu

--
1 Shadjam Sa
2 Suddha Rishabam Ra, Small Ri
3 Chatusruthi Rishabam Ri, Big Ri
Suddha Gandharam Ga
4 Shatsruthi Rishabam Ru
Sadharana Gandharam Gi, Small Ga
5 Anthara Gandharam Gu, Big Ga
6 Suddha Madhyamam Ma, Small Ma
7 Prati Madhyamam Mi, Big Ma
8 Panchamam Pa
9 Suddha Dhaivatham Da,Small Da
10 Chatusruthi Dhaivatham Di, Big Da
Suddha Nishadam Na
11 Shatsruthi Dhaivatham Du
Kaisika Nishadham Ni, Small Ni
12 Kakali Nishadham Nu, Big Ni

( From: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/~sriram/karpri.html )

[suma]

Thank you. I am only aware of suddha rishabam, chatusruthi rishabam etc and R1, R2 etc but did not know that they can also be noted like this.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, When I was learning Violin, once my teacher angrily commented that I was talking too much about music even without knowing much even though I do not know where and which ‘Dha’ I have to play in Bhairavi. Then I retorted ‘I prettry well know that while ascending the bigger one and while descending the smaller one’ and my teacher bust into laughter. I remembered this on seeing your post. Would you kindly prefer to use ‘upper and lower’ words in such respect of notes hereafter? amsharma

[vasanthakokilam]

Will do, sharmaji ( actually I cut and paste it from that link, but the point is well taken )

[twister]

Suji, understood. It is a new language but a very close cousin. I also see that it would not fly during kalpanaswaram. But our brains put mnemonics to great use. Based on that, my speculation is, if we use different solfa symbols for different swarathanams, the brain may have an easier time to bring that into the correct swarasthanam.

Yes. This is what exactly my idea was about. So, ganesh_mourthy, this is what I was trying to figure out.

As for the singing, the quetion was actually not either to learn lyrics or not, but to improve improvisational skills. In respect to manodharma, this means that there is no lyrics to flow into a performers mind when he dives deep into the melody ocean, and then it is not always useful to "sing in mind" those Sa-Re-Ga syllables, as here and there the diamond placers of their flat and sharp equialents appear within the melody flow. And the mind (or, the brain) gets two different swaras under the same label. So, in principle, at the beginning there is a somewhat steep learning curve, but later this should bring more freedom in melodical interpretation and variation. Do you agree with me?

Also, this may be helpful for the brain to distinguish ragam at the "speech" level. This also should bring more dynamics and (don't kill me) allow to build a relation between them, adding cross-reminiscences during the performance.

So, as far as I understans from this thread, no one from you rasikas (be it performers or listeners) never use this in practice?

Well, do you at least find it ingenious?

[twister]

I have seen them represented like this.

There is a nice and simple table representing them at wikipedia.org

[twister]

Would you kindly prefer to use ‘upper and lower’ words in such respect of notes hereafter?

Do you mean that I don't have to call it "Ra"? Should I think just of "lower Ri" instead?

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, twister, In fact, Ri has two places and Ga has two places. Thus either Ri or Ga has one upper and another lower places. But, to yield more varieties the upper Ri has been pushed up and thus it has got the third place also and the lower Ga has been dragged down and thus it has got the third place also. Thus, we have 3 varieties, Ra, Ri & Ru of Rishabha and 3 varieties, Ga, Gi & Gu of Gandhara. amsharma

[twister]

Dear brother-member, twister, In fact, Ri has two places and Ga has two places. Thus either Ri or Ga has one upper and another lower places. But, to yield more varieties the upper Ri has been pushed up and thus it has got the third place also and the lower Ga has been dragged down and thus it has got the third place also. Thus, we have 3 varieties, Ra, Ri & Ru of Rishabha and 3 varieties, Ga, Gi & Gu of Gandhara. amsharma

Yes, this was understood be me already. The question is whether the different syllables should be vocalized for a different types (lower or upper) of each swara? In another words, if I meet Ri in a raga (where it is R1), should I sing "Ra"? Or, "Ri", anyway?

Thank you!

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, twister, While singing you should always pronounce with ‘Ri’ only. amsharma