New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Tālam & Layam related topics
Vedic
Posts: 9
Joined: 12 Jul 2009, 15:43

#126

Post by Vedic » 22 Aug 2009, 02:07

your programme is very very fine thanking the god to get a chance to ...... iam having its video
Last edited by Vedic on 22 Aug 2009, 02:11, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

[email protected]
Posts: 40
Joined: 12 Dec 2006, 23:02

#127

Post by [email protected] » 22 Aug 2009, 09:56

thanks thanks you pl visit http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/06/09/stor ... 780200.htm then you can get an idea. the idea of composing sivapalathalam is coming from not only from carnatic music and hindusthani music but also our own kerala tradisional which is written clearly in hindu .iam very happy to know this much peoples are accepting this thalam [ sivapalathalam ]all over the world through the site meter .iam having enogh programme in europe and invitationse are coming all over world with the grace of god and guruse and critisisors . i dont know which vidio you are having so pl up lod in you tube . happy thanks
Last edited by [email protected] on 22 Aug 2009, 10:11, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

Vedic
Posts: 9
Joined: 12 Jul 2009, 15:43

#128

Post by Vedic » 14 Sep 2009, 01:04

Thank for All!. In you tube I find video, But I dont find it now!. Soryy.
0 x

tsshreevidya
Posts: 6
Joined: 22 Apr 2018, 12:33

#129 Re:

Post by tsshreevidya » 20 Jun 2018, 20:58

msakella wrote:
12 Jun 2007, 15:34
Dear brother-member, [email protected], Which rare Tala do you mean I am unable to make out? In the annals of our music literature, I did never find such a Tala like Sharabhanandana. But, the rhythmical form of Sharabhanandana consisting of 24 Talangas and 79 Kriyas in Chaturashra-gati/nadai fits in Talaprastara and, if we try, we can get its serial number and its authenticity as a rhythmical form as well even though it should not be rendered as a Tala. And the number of Kriyas vary if we render it in other Gatis/nadais. Thus, even though no other such rhythmical form has ever been brought out and named after, it is being treated as a rare Tala.
But, Sivapalatalam, said to have been consisted of 13 ½ Kriyas, is also being treated as a rare Tala by you as you yourself have brought it out fondly. If it consists of 13 ½ Kriyas you are compelled to render each Kriya in Chaturashra-gati/nadai only and in such case it consists of (13 ½ x 4 = ) 54 Aksharas. And if you want to prove its authenticity even as a rhythmical form, you should only furnish its serial number(s) and tell how many Aksharas it carries in each Avarta if it is rendered in other Gatis/nadais. Everybody is aware that no fractions are allowed at all in furnishing numbers unless we need them for a specific purpose and in the same manner no fractions are allowed in rendering Kriyas. amsharma.

Can u plz share more details about sharabhanandana tala like angas, history, any compositionsor any pallavi plZz
0 x

msakella
Posts: 1874
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
x 47

#130 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by msakella » 23 Jun 2018, 13:03

Dear sister-member, tsshreevidya,
Sharabhanandana is not a Tala which abides by the rules of Taladashapranas but it is one of the innumerable rhythmical forms of the universe. Having no knowledge of Talaprastara, the 10th element many may think it as a Tala but it is not.
Innumerable rhythmical forms are already there in the universe and which abide by the rules of Taladashapranas are only called Talas and others rhythmical forms or chando-rupas only. Thus, Sharabhanandana is a chando-rupa which should not be rendered as a Tala. But, without having the knowledge of Talaprastrara, Shyama Shastry had created and rendered this as a Tala and, pitiably, even Bobbili Keshavaiah had also accepted his defeat. Both are wrong.
Only by the grace of the Almighty I could bring out this topic in four decades and I have brought out 3 books, which are original, on this topic. By this knowledge only I can tell that this is not a Tala at all but a rhythmical form only like all the Tiruppugal rhythmical forms.
You very simply wrote one sentence about what you require and it is not that easy to do so. If you are truly interested in getting them go through all the previous posts of this thread, understand more and again come back to me. amsharma
0 x

Christian Kenit Ram
Posts: 35
Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Location: Vienna , Austria
x 3
x 1

#131 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 13 Jul 2018, 03:22

Here is one video I found , where the structure seems to be clear :

The metronome gives the structure with the half-beat ( 13.5 ) , while the mridangam player makes the kriyas for Khanda Jati Triputa Tala ( 9 aksharas or 9 matras according to some ) over it . So after having done that 3 times , he clapped 27 aksharas ( 3 x 9 = 27 : fitting with 2 x 13.5 = 27 ) , then he makes the original kriyas for this Tala together with metronome , and finally he plays the mridangam over it .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_GRN8qRbmc
0 x

msakella
Posts: 1874
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
x 47

#132 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by msakella » 13 Jul 2018, 08:25

As per the rules and restrictions of Taladashapranas no Tala should consist of any fraction of a beat. Any person who has no knowledge of Talaprastara can bring out such rhythmical form along with a video but he can never bring out its authentic universal serial number. amsharma
0 x

SrinathK
Posts: 1417
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
x 65
x 254

#133 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by SrinathK » 13 Jul 2018, 09:10

A 13.5 beat pattern is really a 27 beat pattern at 2x speed. There is a unique aesthetic effect in rendering it in such a manner.
0 x

msakella
Posts: 1874
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
x 47

#134 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by msakella » 14 Jul 2018, 05:38

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

Adi-tala having originally 8 Kriyas but, for convenience, rendered with additional in-between beats in the slow-tempo need not be defined as a pattern of 16-beats and the same applies to this ‘Sivapalathalam’ also.

In our musical history Sharabhanandana-tala is the famous rhythmical form brought out by our Shyama Shastry, the great. This rhythmical form does not abide by the rules and regulations of Taladashapranas and, thus, this should not be rendered at all as Tala but can be rendered as a rhythmical form or Chando-rupa like Tiruppugal rhythmical forms. Most unfortunately, this cannot be understood by the persons who do not have the full knowledge of Tala-prastara. All such rhythmical forms are just like a couple of horse and ass. amsharma
0 x

SrinathK
Posts: 1417
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
x 65
x 254

#135 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by SrinathK » 14 Jul 2018, 12:53

msakella wrote:
14 Jul 2018, 05:38
Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

Adi-tala having originally 8 Kriyas but, for convenience, rendered with additional in-between beats in the slow-tempo need not be defined as a pattern of 16-beats and the same applies to this ‘Sivapalathalam’ also.
The Mishra chapu is a 1.5+1+1 beat pattern as rendered, but the fundamental rhythmic pattern of this tala is actually the 43rd permutation under the number 7 (on the basis of numbers) - 1+2+2+2 or tt,t,t,|| However, chApu tAlas don't really have tAlangas where Anudhrutam = 1 and Dhrutam = 2, so by the modern system of desiya tAlas they are to be considered as chandas only.

On the contrary an A+D+D+D (1 anudhrutam + 3 dhrutams) would be a valid tAla under the desiya tAla system.

I always thought that kaLai is a different concept - something similar to 60 bpm or 30 bpm or 15 bpm on the metronome followed by a degree of speed adjustment so that you get 8 or 16 notes per beat.

In theory a 2 kaLai Adi tAla with extra beats can in fact be represented as a separate tAla, but this is not correct as those extra beats really exist only for convenience, as you said.
0 x

msakella
Posts: 1874
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
x 47

#136 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by msakella » 15 Jul 2018, 17:30

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

While the beats of the portion of the Chapu-tala of this so called “Sivapalathalam” have to be rendered @ two-units per beat the beats of the remaining portion of this rhythmical form have to be rendered @ four-units per beat. Thus, this rhythmical form is an un-healthy mixture of horse and ass.

Nowadays, many musicians are interested in getting an easy fame or money or popularity by bringing out a new rhythmical form with a new name of Tala even though it does not abide by the rules of Taladashapranas. They do not know the true Lakshana of Taladashapranas and also they are not ready even to discuss things with the knowledgeable persons. They all do as they like and also expect others to agree with it. In our country this music field itself has been like this since a very long time and we can’t help. amsharma
0 x

shankarank
Posts: 2562
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 2
x 76

#137 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by shankarank » 15 Jul 2018, 22:48

There was a rumbling @ Cleveland , I remember when SrI Bhaktavatsalam played a tani , SrI Lalgudi's concert where he played a pharan to reckon 2.5 mAtrAs and it became a topic of discussion, amongst percussionists!
0 x

msakella
Posts: 1874
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
x 47

#138 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by msakella » 16 Jul 2018, 08:19

Dear brother-member, shankarank,
There is vast deference between having the knowledge of Talaprastara and the knowledge of forming a pharan of Mridangam. amsharma
0 x

Christian Kenit Ram
Posts: 35
Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Location: Vienna , Austria
x 3
x 1

#139 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 18 Jul 2018, 13:02

SrinathK wrote:
14 Jul 2018, 12:53

The Mishra chapu is a 1.5+1+1 beat pattern as rendered, but the fundamental rhythmic pattern of this tala is actually the 43rd permutation under the number 7 (on the basis of numbers) - 1+2+2+2 or tt,t,t,|| However, chApu tAlas don't really have tAlangas where Anudhrutam = 1 and Dhrutam = 2, so by the modern system of desiya tAlas they are to be considered as chandas only.

On the contrary an A+D+D+D (1 anudhrutam + 3 dhrutams) would be a valid tAla under the desiya tAla system.
I am not sure , but I think I have found the context for the " 43rd permutation " you are talking about : In one book by Mister Akella there is a table of the permutations for the number 7 ( title is " 1-7-64 " ) . However there are 2 rows , one in ascending numeral order from 1 to 64 ( "A " is written : meaning " Anuloma " ? ) and one in descending order from 64 to 1 ( " V " is written : meaning " Viloma " ? ) . ( 64 would be the number of permutations for 7 units according to the process of Akhanda-Prastara , Sankhya mode --- if I understood correctly )

Ok , the permutation " 1 2 2 2 " is listed as number 22 in the A-row and as number 43 in the V-row . I think that fits together with what you were saying .

But why do you call this formula 43rd and not 22nd ?

I suppose there are rules for that , but reading through the whole chapters is a very lenghty task ; and trying to find specific explanations for small points is not always easy . Even regarding theforum topic " Talaprastara " there only have been 3-4 people who tried to get deeper into the subject , so not many are keen on following so many tables and calculations .( Adding the fact that older posts are incomplete and have some strange symbols like ‘1’ , which I think were not there in the original posts . )

Going further , I am not sure if 43 would be also the serial number .... Probably not , because getting serial number involves deduction of proxies and other steps ....
I abandoned the further steps at this point .
Last edited by Christian Kenit Ram on 18 Jul 2018, 13:42, edited 2 times in total.
0 x

SrinathK
Posts: 1417
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
x 65
x 254

#140 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by SrinathK » 18 Jul 2018, 13:29

Oh yes, I had it backwards, where it is #43. Forwards it is #22.

Yes, the subject is hard to learn from a book, actually only because the verbose explanation IMHO is very cumbersome. I am absolutely certain there is a much simpler way to demonstrate it and introduce each term and concept step by step - if only I myself can get comfortable with it - unfortunately I do not have the time.

Like maths, this needs to be learnt by doing first and then some technical terms can be introduced later. We can tell people how to add 2+2 and 2-2 and much later on talk about how the real number system is a subset of complex numbers and all that...

Definitions and technical elements can be understood intuitively by doing it directly. Then it is far far easier. This whole topic can be summed up in a week.

The weird symbols are a result of data corruption at some point.

If there had been more examples and figures, or even videos to show how it is done, and learn the theory after the example, you will see that this tAlaprasthara is not that much more difficult than finding the gcd of 2 numbers or converting a number into binary and back (in fact the talaprashtara procedures are very similar to a binary conversion. The method of deriving rhythmic patterns is entirely based on binary conversion, just replace the 1 with a beat and the 0 with a pause or , or vice versa, and there we are).
0 x

Christian Kenit Ram
Posts: 35
Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Location: Vienna , Austria
x 3
x 1

#141 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 18 Jul 2018, 21:18

Ok , thanks for pointing out these details .

Well , yes , in fact I am waiting for some lengthy video lectures that throw some light into the matter along with diagrams and practical demonstrations with Kriyas . There are many elaborate videos touching other aspects of Tala Vidya , but for Talaprastara I have only seen a small segment as part of the Tala Dasa Pranas .

Somehow related to this was a lec-concert ( video) I saw some time ago by Dhrupad singers where they did a demo of Merukhand alankars . But they did not go deeper into the matter of giving the Shastra Praman of their exercises , as far as I remember .
0 x

Christian Kenit Ram
Posts: 35
Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Location: Vienna , Austria
x 3
x 1

#142 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 21 Jul 2018, 03:45

Christian Kenit Ram wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 13:02

Going further , I am not sure if 43 would be also the serial number .... Probably not , because getting serial number involves deduction of proxies and other steps ....
Ok , I can not edit this old above post anymore , so I am adding that after comparing other tables and serial numbers I think that 22 ( and 43 in reverse ) IS INDEED the serial number for the permutation 1 2 2 2 .
I am going to post in the Talaprastara-thread shortly to see if I have some other serial numbers correctly .
0 x

msakella
Posts: 1874
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
x 47

#143 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by msakella » 23 Jul 2018, 15:39

The obverse-nuber of the permutation (Anuloma-prastara) of ‘1-2-2-2’ of ‘7- units is ’22’ and the reverse-number (Viloma-prastrara) of the same is ‘43’ among the total of ‘64’ permutations.
Also there are easy methods ‘Nashta & Uddistha’ to get the form of the permutation from the serial-number and the serial-number from the form of the permutation respectively absolutely avoiding the process of the laborious process of permutation. amsharma
0 x

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1241
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 64
x 94

#144 Re:

Post by Ranganayaki » 22 Aug 2018, 04:27

Vocalist wrote:
17 Jun 2006, 09:26
Phew! At least it's not called Sivapputhalam!! LOL

Speaking of which, how is the name of a thalam made? Random??
Ive always wondered if the Simhanandana tala is so called because it’s so grand and considered so difficult that anyone who attempts it successfully must be a simhaanandana, or Singakutti.. 🙂
0 x

SrinathK
Posts: 1417
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
x 65
x 254

#145 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by SrinathK » 23 Aug 2018, 15:13

I've tried the Simhanandana and a few other complex tAlAs. I tell you, the Sharabhanandana is definitely the more difficult of the two. It's not the cycle length as much as it is the internal splitting that gives you the real headaches.

Sharabhanandana is the most difficult of the entire lot I've ever met so far (that includes the 5 chApus, the 72 'tAlAs', the sulAdi 35 talas (from the 7 tAlAs of alankarams), the navasandhi, and even the 108 tAlas, and virtually all chanda 'talas').

This forum is the only place where I've heard about longer talas of 384 units or 149 units. I wonder if @msakella has any information on their tAlAngas. Mathematically speaking there is no upper limit to this, but really, why would you want to make it even more difficult? :D
0 x

msakella
Posts: 1874
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
x 47

#146 Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

Post by msakella » 11 Oct 2018, 04:12

I have already furnished the required details of the longest Talas in the following link. amsharma
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6860&p=342029#p342029
0 x

Post Reply