Performer VS Entertainer
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In the Bangalore edition of the Entertainment Section of The Hindu, there is a very nice interview with vidushi T. S. Satyavathi, where this statement is made:
"A performer is not just an entertainer, but also automatically takes on the role of a teacher and has a huge responsibility to elevate the audience, giving them some message to take home."
If we held artists to this standard, I wonder how many will qualify as performers!
Comments please!
Ravi
Link to the article in question:
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/08/04/stor ... 240200.htm
"A performer is not just an entertainer, but also automatically takes on the role of a teacher and has a huge responsibility to elevate the audience, giving them some message to take home."
If we held artists to this standard, I wonder how many will qualify as performers!
Comments please!
Ravi
Link to the article in question:
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/08/04/stor ... 240200.htm
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- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
To look for the performer to elevate you is IMHO simplifying things way too much and shifting too much of reponsibility and hence blame away from the rasika and to the performer. A performance which doesnt move me an ounce can move some other rasika to tears. What does that mean? That both the performer and the rasika are somehow still beneath me because they are appreciating something that i dont approve as good music? Or could it be that my tastes arent open enough to appreciate more variety? Or could there be other reasons as to why i couldnt appreciate a performance on that day?
Also in general, many would agree that if a performer is truly immersed in the music during a particular performance, then all rasikas who give their undivided attention to such a performance should in theory be elevated. But with peoples egos with their preconceived ideas, ones opinion about one's own taste and of course other's tastes, and wavering minds in the way, i seriously doubt that happens that often.
I guess what I am saying is for the rasika to get elevated by the music, there is enough and perhaps equal responsibility on the rasika also and that is usually not even acknowledged. Almost all of us are readily willing to blame the artist 100% of the time if a performace doesnt move us. I would dare venture and say this perhaps applies most to critics (:-).
Arun
Also in general, many would agree that if a performer is truly immersed in the music during a particular performance, then all rasikas who give their undivided attention to such a performance should in theory be elevated. But with peoples egos with their preconceived ideas, ones opinion about one's own taste and of course other's tastes, and wavering minds in the way, i seriously doubt that happens that often.
I guess what I am saying is for the rasika to get elevated by the music, there is enough and perhaps equal responsibility on the rasika also and that is usually not even acknowledged. Almost all of us are readily willing to blame the artist 100% of the time if a performace doesnt move us. I would dare venture and say this perhaps applies most to critics (:-).
Arun
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Initially my thoughts were along the lines of Arun, but on further deliberation it seems to me what T. S. Satyavathi is saying is 'An entertainer is one who plays to the gallery/audience' and a perfomer is one who has his/her own standards irrespective of the audience. In this sense, the performer has a firm belief and faith that the audience will come along even if they are not 'there' already.
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entertaining automatically has the connotation of 'pleasing'. Whereas performing is the carrying out of a 'job or duty' willy-nilly. These two may be distinct. Rasikas look for a performance that is entertaining; if not they will not attend. If the performer does not entertain he will not get paid eventually. The concept of 'popularity' is built into entertaining. It has been claimed that (late) Santhanam sought more to enterrtain even though he could be a great performer. The same attribute is ascribed to KJy as well! On the other hand (late) MDR was always a performer. Generally a 'performer' artiste seeks self satisfaction first whereas the 'entertainer' wishes to satisfy the Rasika clan. Nothing derogatory intrinsically. We need both kinds. Ther performer wants to educate the Rasikas the hard way but many seek the easy way of getting entertained and would flock to the entertainer. It is the 'financial' reward that is the carrot that migrates the performer to become an entertainer. The story of TMS as told by 'srkris' is telling on this point. See
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=16512#p16512
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=16512#p16512
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vk,
Agreed but why do we by default tend to presume that a perfomer who appears to us as to "play to the gallery/audience" has not already set a standard which is enjoyed by his/her audience? Could it be because we dont like that perfomer's music, and we think our opinion is of higher value than the performer and his/her audience's opinions (:-)? So either this perfomer has not set any standards, or even if he/she has set a standard, we (involuntarily but very boldly) tend to presume it is shabby. That is sort what I implied above: with people's egos with their preconceived ideas, ones opinion about one's own tastes and others tastes etc.
I am of course not pointing fingers at specific individuals but making a general comment about tendencies in people in general (and i include myself amongst this).
One other interesting tendency is people talking with what can be called pride about being ardent followers "real music" performed by "real musicians" who most of the "common rasikas" simply cannot appreciate. These musicians are of course the people whom they would place in the category of musicians you mention above - i.e. they dont play to the gallery and have set high standards for music regardless of popularity etc.. Certainly, there are elements of truth to all of this, and i do love many of these musicians, and do feel bad when they are not recognized enough. However, i cant help feel that even here a (un)healthy dose of the rasikas' egos gets mixed in their opinions and thus comes out to me as pride in being able to appreciate something which you think many others dont have the capacity to appreciate. That could be why a praise for such a musician is almost always accompanied with a lament for falling standards, and sometimes an admonition of "current day crop" (or specific people in current day crop), with their admirers being charged by association.
Arun
Agreed but why do we by default tend to presume that a perfomer who appears to us as to "play to the gallery/audience" has not already set a standard which is enjoyed by his/her audience? Could it be because we dont like that perfomer's music, and we think our opinion is of higher value than the performer and his/her audience's opinions (:-)? So either this perfomer has not set any standards, or even if he/she has set a standard, we (involuntarily but very boldly) tend to presume it is shabby. That is sort what I implied above: with people's egos with their preconceived ideas, ones opinion about one's own tastes and others tastes etc.
I am of course not pointing fingers at specific individuals but making a general comment about tendencies in people in general (and i include myself amongst this).
One other interesting tendency is people talking with what can be called pride about being ardent followers "real music" performed by "real musicians" who most of the "common rasikas" simply cannot appreciate. These musicians are of course the people whom they would place in the category of musicians you mention above - i.e. they dont play to the gallery and have set high standards for music regardless of popularity etc.. Certainly, there are elements of truth to all of this, and i do love many of these musicians, and do feel bad when they are not recognized enough. However, i cant help feel that even here a (un)healthy dose of the rasikas' egos gets mixed in their opinions and thus comes out to me as pride in being able to appreciate something which you think many others dont have the capacity to appreciate. That could be why a praise for such a musician is almost always accompanied with a lament for falling standards, and sometimes an admonition of "current day crop" (or specific people in current day crop), with their admirers being charged by association.
Arun
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T.S.Satyavathi is a vocalist, mridangist, musicologist and a sanskrit scholar. Sounds as though we are talking about a gentleman from the old days, doesn't it? Coming from her who has all those credentials, what she says makes sense. I have heard about her, heard her sing in a group (Tyagaraja festival) but not in a concert. Would like to, though. Once, in her guru RKS's concert, we were sitting next to each other across the aisle. When I wondered about a composition, she readily and with a smile gave me the name of the composer.
Someone with her kind of background naturally wants to preserve the traditions. For being teacher to the listener--I suppose she means that by attending concerts of musicians who stick to paddathi IS like lessons from good teachers.
There is another reason. Royal patronage drew artists from everywhere and Karnataka has welcomed them from tamizhnadu, Andhra and Kerala, and still does. More so now since Bangalore has become a mega city. I have heard this too that while there are so many concerts of those who come from other states to Karnataka, rarely any of the local artists get featured in concerts elsewhere--but for a handful. For instance, how many in tamizhnadu and andhra have listened to or have heard of Neela Ramgopal? Of course, Chennai is the mecca and you are in the right place for learning and exposure. Even those well known artists from Maharashtra and Andhra have settled down in Chennai. A lot of musicians of the popular (entertaining) kind from other states come to Bangalore to perform which to some extent takes away the slots from the locals, perhaps. Whatever her reasons, T.S.Satyavathy has spoken thus and I think it is worth listening to since all of us on the forum want quality CM to flourish....
Someone with her kind of background naturally wants to preserve the traditions. For being teacher to the listener--I suppose she means that by attending concerts of musicians who stick to paddathi IS like lessons from good teachers.
There is another reason. Royal patronage drew artists from everywhere and Karnataka has welcomed them from tamizhnadu, Andhra and Kerala, and still does. More so now since Bangalore has become a mega city. I have heard this too that while there are so many concerts of those who come from other states to Karnataka, rarely any of the local artists get featured in concerts elsewhere--but for a handful. For instance, how many in tamizhnadu and andhra have listened to or have heard of Neela Ramgopal? Of course, Chennai is the mecca and you are in the right place for learning and exposure. Even those well known artists from Maharashtra and Andhra have settled down in Chennai. A lot of musicians of the popular (entertaining) kind from other states come to Bangalore to perform which to some extent takes away the slots from the locals, perhaps. Whatever her reasons, T.S.Satyavathy has spoken thus and I think it is worth listening to since all of us on the forum want quality CM to flourish....
Last edited by arasi on 08 Aug 2006, 01:30, edited 1 time in total.
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cml,
I just read about TMS's conversation with srikris. Interesting and honest. It is the other side of the coin, isn't it? Satyavathi, a practitioner of the classical style speaks from her own experiences and training. As you say, we need entertainment too, and for that very reason, we need to hear from the classicists every now and then in order to remember the other aspect of music...
I just read about TMS's conversation with srikris. Interesting and honest. It is the other side of the coin, isn't it? Satyavathi, a practitioner of the classical style speaks from her own experiences and training. As you say, we need entertainment too, and for that very reason, we need to hear from the classicists every now and then in order to remember the other aspect of music...
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Arun:
Well expressed sentiments ( though we are moving quite a bit away from what Ms. T.S.Satyavathi is saying). I agree. That kind of "eliticism" is very prevalent. It is also seen in other serious genres like Jazz too. It is almost like if a larger crowd appreciates something, it takes away some of the rasika's identity!!
Having said that, that has to be distinguished from the "refined tastes" of a serious rasika. The one who "knows" what he/she likes and knows to distinguish between good and bad ( of course according to their tastes, knowledge and criteria ) irrespective of mass popularity or otherwise. I know a couple of people like that and it is a great learning experience to try to tease out their criteria.
Well expressed sentiments ( though we are moving quite a bit away from what Ms. T.S.Satyavathi is saying). I agree. That kind of "eliticism" is very prevalent. It is also seen in other serious genres like Jazz too. It is almost like if a larger crowd appreciates something, it takes away some of the rasika's identity!!
Having said that, that has to be distinguished from the "refined tastes" of a serious rasika. The one who "knows" what he/she likes and knows to distinguish between good and bad ( of course according to their tastes, knowledge and criteria ) irrespective of mass popularity or otherwise. I know a couple of people like that and it is a great learning experience to try to tease out their criteria.
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Arasi,arasi wrote:Ravi,
Thanks for posting the item. What do you think of it?
If one listened with one's heart, I think the chaff will easily separate from the grain! IMO there is more than just a grain of truth in what TSS says...
I agree with TMS' point of view as well, and admire his honesty, and in my mind he is a performer, unlike some, who stradle several genres and aren't able to entertain in any of them.
Ravi
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Hmm interesting...
IMHO, an entertainer is an entertainer,not a teacher, if they inspire someone, hey, fantastic, but not so what? We live in a different world. I agree the fact that you cannot please 100% of the audience, however if they can please the majority then they have achieved their purpose. Before you jump on, in the olden days musicians, most often than not, were "patronised", not given a fee for performing. They sang as much as they liked and the *audience* were there to listen. How many "All are welcome" concerts say in Ayodhya Mandapam or Sastri Hall do we see a fully packed arena? I've personally been to many in these two venues. As long as some popular musician sings what teh audience have heard a 1000 thousand times there'll be thunderous applause [regardless of whether they deserved it or not]. I've seen TNS singing with about 40 persons in Ayodhya Mandapam, about 20 odd when Dr Srivatsava celeberated Dikshitar festival.
Now that the audience are very selective [Oh I had to leave because of the last bus, I only stay for the main piece etc etc] so are the artists. They have to live on this remember? As long as they please the audience enough [and critics] so that they get a few more concerts then they'd feel the concert was a success. Yep, bear it folks. The music has become commercial. No two ways of putting it, it's an industry now. So why should the artist take the blame for not being a *teacher*? if he or she performed badly fair enough, trash him on the press, web etc. Sheesh, no offence to Vidushi T. S. Satyavathi, but give us a break and look at the calendar which cleary says year 2006. Not 1886. Maybe 200 years ago when things were different. Not now I'm afraid.
IMHO, an entertainer is an entertainer,not a teacher, if they inspire someone, hey, fantastic, but not so what? We live in a different world. I agree the fact that you cannot please 100% of the audience, however if they can please the majority then they have achieved their purpose. Before you jump on, in the olden days musicians, most often than not, were "patronised", not given a fee for performing. They sang as much as they liked and the *audience* were there to listen. How many "All are welcome" concerts say in Ayodhya Mandapam or Sastri Hall do we see a fully packed arena? I've personally been to many in these two venues. As long as some popular musician sings what teh audience have heard a 1000 thousand times there'll be thunderous applause [regardless of whether they deserved it or not]. I've seen TNS singing with about 40 persons in Ayodhya Mandapam, about 20 odd when Dr Srivatsava celeberated Dikshitar festival.
Now that the audience are very selective [Oh I had to leave because of the last bus, I only stay for the main piece etc etc] so are the artists. They have to live on this remember? As long as they please the audience enough [and critics] so that they get a few more concerts then they'd feel the concert was a success. Yep, bear it folks. The music has become commercial. No two ways of putting it, it's an industry now. So why should the artist take the blame for not being a *teacher*? if he or she performed badly fair enough, trash him on the press, web etc. Sheesh, no offence to Vidushi T. S. Satyavathi, but give us a break and look at the calendar which cleary says year 2006. Not 1886. Maybe 200 years ago when things were different. Not now I'm afraid.
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Mahesh,
Your points are all well taken. After all you, the younger generation are going to be the torch bearers of CM and HM. The music world certainly needs your support, interest and views on what pleases you. So do the performers. Quite a number of old timers like me are keen on new blood and innovations in classical music. There is room for many styles and schools of music to coexist and thrive at the same time (Tastes vary and I am not talking about that here). Merely that while in developing and growing, the old is not forgotten and left behind. Our music has undergone many changes, some for the good and some, not so. All that is nourishing and long lasting in the new should be welcomed without reservation. I view music as a universal thing. I am open to any kind of music that pleases me. Snobbery has no room in it. Nor do I know that much about music to be a snob! I am only a rasika, and theory and laya are beyond me most of the time. I am happy that like you and many others I am able to enjoy good music--having an ear for music is gift enough.
Power to you the younger generation, to those of you who are into music.
Let the old and the new and the in between live happily together but not forget to grow or to respect each other.
Let there be concerts of all sorts, to please all of us. We can pick and choose the kind of concerts we want to go to and enjoy them. If we find that the artist doesn't deliver the genre of music we thought they were going to give us, we will learn from it and not go to their concerts again.
Coming to the 'teacher' bit again, do you know who has really been a guide in music to me the past several years? Someone nearly half my age--and that may explain to you that oldies do not always appreciate only the old timers.
Those innovative musicians who rejuvenate music as they happen to live among us, end up being masters forever...
Your points are all well taken. After all you, the younger generation are going to be the torch bearers of CM and HM. The music world certainly needs your support, interest and views on what pleases you. So do the performers. Quite a number of old timers like me are keen on new blood and innovations in classical music. There is room for many styles and schools of music to coexist and thrive at the same time (Tastes vary and I am not talking about that here). Merely that while in developing and growing, the old is not forgotten and left behind. Our music has undergone many changes, some for the good and some, not so. All that is nourishing and long lasting in the new should be welcomed without reservation. I view music as a universal thing. I am open to any kind of music that pleases me. Snobbery has no room in it. Nor do I know that much about music to be a snob! I am only a rasika, and theory and laya are beyond me most of the time. I am happy that like you and many others I am able to enjoy good music--having an ear for music is gift enough.
Power to you the younger generation, to those of you who are into music.
Let the old and the new and the in between live happily together but not forget to grow or to respect each other.
Let there be concerts of all sorts, to please all of us. We can pick and choose the kind of concerts we want to go to and enjoy them. If we find that the artist doesn't deliver the genre of music we thought they were going to give us, we will learn from it and not go to their concerts again.
Coming to the 'teacher' bit again, do you know who has really been a guide in music to me the past several years? Someone nearly half my age--and that may explain to you that oldies do not always appreciate only the old timers.
Those innovative musicians who rejuvenate music as they happen to live among us, end up being masters forever...
Last edited by arasi on 09 Aug 2006, 03:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Recently I have started to listen to chembai's concerts and I am discovered this. how a performer can be a teacher.. Listen to a 48 sec sample of a coversation between Chembai and the violinist...Since then I am listening to more and morearasi wrote:There is room for many styles and schools of music to coexist and thrive at the same time (Tastes vary and I am not talking about that here). Merely that while in developing and growing, the old is not forgotten and left behind. ...
http://rapidshare.de/files/28694180/che ... a.mp3.html
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This is one of the evergreen issues .
I once heard a cricket commentator remark that a great batsman(read exponent) is one who has atleast two ways of playing each ball as against a good batsman(read entertainer) who has enough time and skill to play the one best way he knows.
Everyone knows that world needs the entertainer as much as the exponent (I am more comfortable with this word) just in the same way a potter first gathers enough clay to make his artefact and then starts working towards his grand design.One cannot find fault with the lumps of clay that he chips off, for the final shape to appear.
Only that, it is the listener's taste that is central to the argument and not the artist's capabilities.
And as the listener moves up, in a scale of awareness, it is common to find him impatient with an artist who has not moved on , in his scale of delivering higher quality content.
There are several beautiful moments in concerts (like the chembai track here) which show an interplay of these forces.
In one MDR rendering of Hariharaputram (i have uploaded it here before ) MDR finishes the krithi with the swaras and then , he does not seem satisfied.Probably the raga has overcome him for the moment , and he settles down to a dazzling repeat of swaras ,yet again.
Definitiions fail at such moments , but it is clear that he is turned into a high powered engine , purring on at just a fraction of his capacity.
In a different concert , TK Rangachari sings an alapana , and as Lalgudi shadows him , he stops and exclaims " Look at this fellow .. he is nudging and reminding me that I have proceeded without singing a few phrases he expected .... and how beautifully he is telling me that..Ok, I will sing them for you ....
What stands out in these exchanges is the attempt to maximise the use of the few hours on the stage to showcase everything that is worth showcasing...
I have come back home after a Santhanam concert dazzled by a arabhi or a mohana and searched for more fountains to quench my thirst.
I have also come back home after accomapanying Thanjavur Sankar Iyer to a concert in private gatherings , attended by all the singing stars of the day ,wondering at the listening requests of these stalwarts.
The importance of those requests were lost on me simply because I was still a kid in musical terms...
The analogies are there in other fields too.
Dr (Neuro)Ramamoorthy's Son ( also a Doctor , but I forget the name ) halted halfway in the midst of an assessment of my Mom -perched uncomfortbaly on the tall bed) and gave an on-the-spot lecture for over 45 minutes ,to a group of Doctors around him who had made the initail assessment-- and he remarked later to us , a bewildered Mom-Son, that he was relaxing after a gruelling spell at the operating table !!
edited and removed tracks
My English Professor in Preuniversity - A Sitaram Sastry- was once overcome by the mood of the moment , and extended the class for an hour on a beautiful afternoon , requesting the students who were very hungry or uninterested , to proceed for lunch...
He just could not stop in the middle of the lesson !!.
25 years later , that day is etched in my memory.
Who was it who remarked that Education consists in what is left in memory after everything that is taught is forgotten ?!!
Mark Twain perhaps ..
I am yet to come across a pure entertainer or a pure exponent , once a level of class has been achieved in the artist.
I once heard a cricket commentator remark that a great batsman(read exponent) is one who has atleast two ways of playing each ball as against a good batsman(read entertainer) who has enough time and skill to play the one best way he knows.
Everyone knows that world needs the entertainer as much as the exponent (I am more comfortable with this word) just in the same way a potter first gathers enough clay to make his artefact and then starts working towards his grand design.One cannot find fault with the lumps of clay that he chips off, for the final shape to appear.
Only that, it is the listener's taste that is central to the argument and not the artist's capabilities.
And as the listener moves up, in a scale of awareness, it is common to find him impatient with an artist who has not moved on , in his scale of delivering higher quality content.
There are several beautiful moments in concerts (like the chembai track here) which show an interplay of these forces.
In one MDR rendering of Hariharaputram (i have uploaded it here before ) MDR finishes the krithi with the swaras and then , he does not seem satisfied.Probably the raga has overcome him for the moment , and he settles down to a dazzling repeat of swaras ,yet again.
Definitiions fail at such moments , but it is clear that he is turned into a high powered engine , purring on at just a fraction of his capacity.
In a different concert , TK Rangachari sings an alapana , and as Lalgudi shadows him , he stops and exclaims " Look at this fellow .. he is nudging and reminding me that I have proceeded without singing a few phrases he expected .... and how beautifully he is telling me that..Ok, I will sing them for you ....
What stands out in these exchanges is the attempt to maximise the use of the few hours on the stage to showcase everything that is worth showcasing...
I have come back home after a Santhanam concert dazzled by a arabhi or a mohana and searched for more fountains to quench my thirst.
I have also come back home after accomapanying Thanjavur Sankar Iyer to a concert in private gatherings , attended by all the singing stars of the day ,wondering at the listening requests of these stalwarts.
The importance of those requests were lost on me simply because I was still a kid in musical terms...
The analogies are there in other fields too.
Dr (Neuro)Ramamoorthy's Son ( also a Doctor , but I forget the name ) halted halfway in the midst of an assessment of my Mom -perched uncomfortbaly on the tall bed) and gave an on-the-spot lecture for over 45 minutes ,to a group of Doctors around him who had made the initail assessment-- and he remarked later to us , a bewildered Mom-Son, that he was relaxing after a gruelling spell at the operating table !!
edited and removed tracks
My English Professor in Preuniversity - A Sitaram Sastry- was once overcome by the mood of the moment , and extended the class for an hour on a beautiful afternoon , requesting the students who were very hungry or uninterested , to proceed for lunch...
He just could not stop in the middle of the lesson !!.
25 years later , that day is etched in my memory.
Who was it who remarked that Education consists in what is left in memory after everything that is taught is forgotten ?!!
Mark Twain perhaps ..
I am yet to come across a pure entertainer or a pure exponent , once a level of class has been achieved in the artist.
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Excellent response from most of you. I go with the assumption that performer= class(may or may not have mass) and entertainer = mass only .
class vs mass is a feeling that is more comparable to meditation . When u stop thinking and stay in present , and totally kill the anxiety of future and the regret of past , yes you see a class (that class may or maynot have mass).
I am not sure if adequate conditioning of mind is a definite prerequisite . I donot know how to explain the first time feelings of sarasa SAma Dhana of MMI , meru SAmana of MDR , sarasee ruha of SSI , enna kavi pAdinAlum of madurai somu and entha ninna sabhari of musiri. Each of them I did not know when I listened for the first time some time 2 decades before(I dont even know much about them to put them in these classification buckets) , but they just connected me so much that I totally got into just present.
coolkarni
IIRC ,Dr ravi is the son of Neuro Dr B Ramamoorthy. By any chance do have some articles where Neuro ramamoothy compares different ragas and the brain/disease response. I have read those articles which I lost.
class vs mass is a feeling that is more comparable to meditation . When u stop thinking and stay in present , and totally kill the anxiety of future and the regret of past , yes you see a class (that class may or maynot have mass).
I am not sure if adequate conditioning of mind is a definite prerequisite . I donot know how to explain the first time feelings of sarasa SAma Dhana of MMI , meru SAmana of MDR , sarasee ruha of SSI , enna kavi pAdinAlum of madurai somu and entha ninna sabhari of musiri. Each of them I did not know when I listened for the first time some time 2 decades before(I dont even know much about them to put them in these classification buckets) , but they just connected me so much that I totally got into just present.
coolkarni
IIRC ,Dr ravi is the son of Neuro Dr B Ramamoorthy. By any chance do have some articles where Neuro ramamoothy compares different ragas and the brain/disease response. I have read those articles which I lost.
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Thanks coolkarni for the excellent megh by Fateh Ali. It is indeed educative...more so after you mentioned what to look for in the rendition. I like when performers talk in between a piece to make a point. It is also entertaining...
I downloaded for hearing and now I am downloading again to save a copy.
I downloaded for hearing and now I am downloading again to save a copy.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 09 Aug 2006, 22:32, edited 1 time in total.
TK Rangachari
A fine example , for a Performer ...
http://rapidshare.de/files/28962950/TKR ... AMBARI.mp3
can someone give me a list of albums of this artist in the market ??
A great pity..
That is one of the problems of such artists not veering towards the entertainment end of the spectrum.
Any one heard of Venkatesh Godhkindi , one of the finest flautists produced by Karnataka ?
Probably No.
Heard of his son Praveen Godhkindi ? who specialises in playing a film song for each raga first and then expands into a khayal.
He is a rage with bangaloreans today.He plays excellent flute too ,though
I still pine for a 70 minute marwa played by his father in 1988 for the AIR Sangeeth sammelan which i did not record.
A fine example , for a Performer ...
http://rapidshare.de/files/28962950/TKR ... AMBARI.mp3
can someone give me a list of albums of this artist in the market ??
A great pity..
That is one of the problems of such artists not veering towards the entertainment end of the spectrum.
Any one heard of Venkatesh Godhkindi , one of the finest flautists produced by Karnataka ?
Probably No.
Heard of his son Praveen Godhkindi ? who specialises in playing a film song for each raga first and then expands into a khayal.
He is a rage with bangaloreans today.He plays excellent flute too ,though
I still pine for a 70 minute marwa played by his father in 1988 for the AIR Sangeeth sammelan which i did not record.
Meena
Thanks very much for that article.
It is a fitting example for the subject being discussed .
Thirty years ago when my Mama used to announce his request for an early dinner (uttara karanatakada Meshtru kolalu nudisthare , ivatthu)( a teacher from North karnataka will play the flute today) i would start making plans to latch on to him.
Being younger by only five years, I would be itching to join the senior boys , and he would try every trick to go without me .
Concerts would be held at the residence of the area manager of "30 NO Beedi Company- a Mangalorean ,and would start at 9.30 pm.
Pressurised by the elders , my mama would finally take me along (he would have his revenge too by making me walk back alone at 1 am - alone in my walk through the deserted streets , battling the ghosts and goblins that would jump on me at every dark intersection.- He would join his friends from the trading community for a Idli Dosa session at that unGodly hour!!
In such settings I heard masterly concerts by Venkatesh Godhkhindi.
Performed for Groups of 20-30 in the audience , they were amazing concerts.
And I always regretted the fact that he never became famous.
His Son's career is in such stark contrast .
Full credit it to him to walk the middle of the path.
edited and removed
I would have missed him totally , but for my B'In law who has some kinky tastes , who suddenly started quoting names of ragas to my bewilderment.
Obviously he was following some radio/TV program where Parveen had performed and had recorded these tracks.
This brings us back to the question whether classical music gets diluted under these conditions.What exactly are the equations that force artists like these to adapt and meet the changing tastes of the audience?
How do we rate the work of Mallikarjun Mansoors son, Rajasekhar who has not deviated even slightly from the path his Father set for him.
Incidentally Mansoor Sr stopped singing popular ragas early in his career.
On being asked the reason he had said " who will take care of these orphans ! they will die without nourishment .Your Yaman, Puriya and others..they have enough Guardians and God Fathers-- Who will take care of these ragas ??
Does it mean that the entertainer entertains you for the moment.
and the Performer entertains future generations too ??
Thanks very much for that article.
It is a fitting example for the subject being discussed .
Thirty years ago when my Mama used to announce his request for an early dinner (uttara karanatakada Meshtru kolalu nudisthare , ivatthu)( a teacher from North karnataka will play the flute today) i would start making plans to latch on to him.
Being younger by only five years, I would be itching to join the senior boys , and he would try every trick to go without me .
Concerts would be held at the residence of the area manager of "30 NO Beedi Company- a Mangalorean ,and would start at 9.30 pm.
Pressurised by the elders , my mama would finally take me along (he would have his revenge too by making me walk back alone at 1 am - alone in my walk through the deserted streets , battling the ghosts and goblins that would jump on me at every dark intersection.- He would join his friends from the trading community for a Idli Dosa session at that unGodly hour!!
In such settings I heard masterly concerts by Venkatesh Godhkhindi.
Performed for Groups of 20-30 in the audience , they were amazing concerts.
And I always regretted the fact that he never became famous.
His Son's career is in such stark contrast .
Full credit it to him to walk the middle of the path.
edited and removed
I would have missed him totally , but for my B'In law who has some kinky tastes , who suddenly started quoting names of ragas to my bewilderment.
Obviously he was following some radio/TV program where Parveen had performed and had recorded these tracks.
This brings us back to the question whether classical music gets diluted under these conditions.What exactly are the equations that force artists like these to adapt and meet the changing tastes of the audience?
How do we rate the work of Mallikarjun Mansoors son, Rajasekhar who has not deviated even slightly from the path his Father set for him.
Incidentally Mansoor Sr stopped singing popular ragas early in his career.
On being asked the reason he had said " who will take care of these orphans ! they will die without nourishment .Your Yaman, Puriya and others..they have enough Guardians and God Fathers-- Who will take care of these ragas ??
Does it mean that the entertainer entertains you for the moment.
and the Performer entertains future generations too ??
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- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
What a poignant statement! I wish our CM practitioners read this!!Incidentally Mansoor Sr stopped singing popular ragas early in his career.
On being asked the reason he had said " who will take care of these orphans ! they will die without nourishment .Your Yaman, Puriya and others..they have enough Guardians and God Fathers-- Who will take care of these ragas ??
CML
A list of those Orphans cared for by Mansoor.
(to my knowledge and as per my records)
Aramabari Kedar ,Barari ,Basanti Kedar ,Bhanakar ,Bihaagada ,Bihari
Devsakh ,Dhavalsree ,Ek Nishad Bihaagda ,Gandhar ,Gara Bagesree
HemNat , JaiJiabilawal , JaitKalyan ,Jaitsree ,Jangla ,Kabiri Bhairav
Karnataka Kafi ,Kaunshi ,Khat ,Khokar ,Kukhabh Bilawal ,lalitha Gowri
Malavi ,Nat Bihag ,Nat Kamod ,Paraj ,Patmanjari ,Raisa Kanada
Ramdasi Malhar ,Sampoorna Malkauns ,Savani nat ,Savani
Shivmath Bhairav ,Shudha Nat ,Shukla Bilawal ,Sorath ,Sughrai Kanada
Vihang ,Yamani Bilawal ,
A list of those Orphans cared for by Mansoor.
(to my knowledge and as per my records)
Aramabari Kedar ,Barari ,Basanti Kedar ,Bhanakar ,Bihaagada ,Bihari
Devsakh ,Dhavalsree ,Ek Nishad Bihaagda ,Gandhar ,Gara Bagesree
HemNat , JaiJiabilawal , JaitKalyan ,Jaitsree ,Jangla ,Kabiri Bhairav
Karnataka Kafi ,Kaunshi ,Khat ,Khokar ,Kukhabh Bilawal ,lalitha Gowri
Malavi ,Nat Bihag ,Nat Kamod ,Paraj ,Patmanjari ,Raisa Kanada
Ramdasi Malhar ,Sampoorna Malkauns ,Savani nat ,Savani
Shivmath Bhairav ,Shudha Nat ,Shukla Bilawal ,Sorath ,Sughrai Kanada
Vihang ,Yamani Bilawal ,
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- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Such absorbing tales, coolji.
The adjective 'diluted' has crept into the vocabulary of CM recently and I heard musicians mentioning it too and giving their opinions on Jaya tv's mArgazhi utsavam. Personally, I am not comfortable with the word. Doesen't the word mean watered down? A presumptive word: not 'degree'--essence coffee, but wishy washy beverage; also meaning there is nothing new in it. So, what really IS meant by diluted CM? Educate me, please...
The adjective 'diluted' has crept into the vocabulary of CM recently and I heard musicians mentioning it too and giving their opinions on Jaya tv's mArgazhi utsavam. Personally, I am not comfortable with the word. Doesen't the word mean watered down? A presumptive word: not 'degree'--essence coffee, but wishy washy beverage; also meaning there is nothing new in it. So, what really IS meant by diluted CM? Educate me, please...
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- Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53
arasi, I get the feeling you've been watching '04 Jaya TV again.
All my notes have how artists were talking about dilution back then. Nithyashree, Sudha, Sanjay, Sowmya, TVS, OST, OSA & Unni all answered questions back then with their individual responses.
I think dilution refers to the mixing of two genres, one being CM in our case. The people who don't appreciate CM often think it's too slow, too ancient and somehow too boring. (I never understand how the latter two can connect). Sudha said that she wouldn't dilute her music even if it came to the stage where no one is willing to listen to her. Nithyashree, Sowmya & Unni said that they wouldn't dilute ever, but would modify their choice accordingly for the crowd. (Eg; a temple kutcheri, unlike a normal kutcheri leaving all the thukkadas till last, they'd sing a popular piece before a heavy piece so that the audience could handle it, in a sense, giving heavy cm in doses.) They were referring to CM and film music I think. OST and OSA (as they did a carnatic-hindusthani concert) talked how CM and Hindusthani have their own unique styles. OST emphasised that CM was the most difficult genre of music to learn. OSA mentioned how Hindusthaani music was quite different to CM in the way that the repertoire is quite a lot smaller, especially for beginners. OSA displayed how the HM Sindhubhairavi piece he sung would just not be right if it were sung in CM Surutti instead.

I think dilution refers to the mixing of two genres, one being CM in our case. The people who don't appreciate CM often think it's too slow, too ancient and somehow too boring. (I never understand how the latter two can connect). Sudha said that she wouldn't dilute her music even if it came to the stage where no one is willing to listen to her. Nithyashree, Sowmya & Unni said that they wouldn't dilute ever, but would modify their choice accordingly for the crowd. (Eg; a temple kutcheri, unlike a normal kutcheri leaving all the thukkadas till last, they'd sing a popular piece before a heavy piece so that the audience could handle it, in a sense, giving heavy cm in doses.) They were referring to CM and film music I think. OST and OSA (as they did a carnatic-hindusthani concert) talked how CM and Hindusthani have their own unique styles. OST emphasised that CM was the most difficult genre of music to learn. OSA mentioned how Hindusthaani music was quite different to CM in the way that the repertoire is quite a lot smaller, especially for beginners. OSA displayed how the HM Sindhubhairavi piece he sung would just not be right if it were sung in CM Surutti instead.
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coolkarni
Thanks for the sparkling list of the orphans! Are they still being cared for? By whom?Shouldn't the wealthy ones adopt some of them and give them a chance?
In the CM area I have a feeling MD's asampurna paddhati has been orphanized! DRS did bring to our attention some sparkling ones. But concerts in general do not highlight any of them or bring out their special significance but bury them off within the betterknown melakartha ragas!
Thanks for the sparkling list of the orphans! Are they still being cared for? By whom?Shouldn't the wealthy ones adopt some of them and give them a chance?
In the CM area I have a feeling MD's asampurna paddhati has been orphanized! DRS did bring to our attention some sparkling ones. But concerts in general do not highlight any of them or bring out their special significance but bury them off within the betterknown melakartha ragas!
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a rare moment from bangalore.
a performer playing to the gallery....
lalgudi with vellore rambhadran and hp ramachar
http://rapidshare.de/files/29453520/per ... allery.mp3
VK
Things start happening at around 4.12.00
a performer playing to the gallery....
lalgudi with vellore rambhadran and hp ramachar
http://rapidshare.de/files/29453520/per ... allery.mp3
VK
Things start happening at around 4.12.00
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- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
Just got to listen to the excerpt. Great stuff! Could you please upload the whole song please...Suji Ram wrote:Recently I have started to listen to chembai's concerts and I am discovered this. how a performer can be a teacher.. Listen to a 48 sec sample of a coversation between Chembai and the violinist...Since then I am listening to more and more
http://rapidshare.de/files/28694180/che ... a.mp3.html
Thanks,
Jayaram