What's the raga?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jun 2009, 21:21

Please check out the latest post on my blog: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/whats-the-raga/ - some general comments about how raga identification is a source of joy as well as anguish for the rasika.

There is also an audio piece begging for you identification there. However, please pay attention to some rules:
Please listen to it and identify the raga - please be aware of the time index as you listen as I would like you to tell me when you were able to get the raga. That is in the answer indicate the time index at which you got the raga. However, please do not reveal the raga name itself in your comment.

The person who gets it in the fastest time gets an award - what award I have not thought of yet

Also, for those of you who do know about this particular piece, please let the others have fun !!

If possible please comment on the blog itself (you can be anonymous there also if you wish)

Arun

Mods: I have a request. In one another forum that I visit, there is a separate section for member blogs (so one thread per blog). Is it possible here so that some of us who maintain carnatic related blogs can post links (also others like Relished Rapports can appear there). People can also inform when artists post in their blogs also. Of course the downside is that if there is an article about a particular raga or artist, then instead of it appearing under more appropriate heading, it would be in blog section. Anyway, just a thought!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Jun 2009, 21:38

..passed it on to admin for action (or inaction

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 27 Jun 2009, 01:26

Arun, just saw this thread.
I checked the raga-identification question on your blog.
My comments:
1. I have heard this piece so many times, so I knew the answer straightaway!
2. But I feel this one is a bit unfair to the listener, because as you know TKR stays at the tara sthayi for a long time when the ragam has a totally different chaaya, then he suddenly takes the 'dip' at 3:31 when the real raga swaroopam is formed.
3. In fact, some people has criticised TKR for precisely this - i.e. that he doesn't bring out the raga bhavam early on. An artiste like MDR would have brought out the raga swaroopam right in the first 5 seconds!

Anyway, nice attempt. Hope you can provide us some more 'real' challenges. I look forward to that.
Btw, I do miss your crossword puzzles!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jun 2009, 02:02

Like I said "sometimes artists like to play games"! Actually the blog was less about that audio, and more about the rasika's need to identify ragas

! But, suppose the rendition was really mela #28, would it feel "as unfair" then? What if the point 3:30 was moved up to say 1:30 - and it is the same raga? What if it is harikambhoji?

Like you commented on the blog, there is certainly a point to be made against elaboration without presenting full context first. I think it gets on our case more because we want to first make the connection. Once connection is made, the artist can stay in a specific sub-set for a while at various points - say a minute (e.g. I think many artists like GNB may do that) does that. In this case, 3:30 is indeed a long time.

Arun

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 27 Jun 2009, 03:13

Not sure about playing games, but I feel it's more a case of the artiste not being able to bring out the raga bhavam early on. I expect a musicologist like SRJ would underscore that every swaram of the alapanam should be pregnant with the raga bhavam.

Here's an example of Ayyalore meandering along until 00:46 when be introduces the jeeva swaram and you suddenly realize the train is on a different track!
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/c9ba443 ... 49b5870170

Feel free to use this in your blog for another demo!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Jun 2009, 03:49

I feel it's more a case of the artiste not being able to bring out the raga bhavam early on.

"not being able to"? Oh come on!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Jun 2009, 04:23

Arun,
It was fun. Within the early part of the first minute, I had to change my mind once. Then the rAgam came to me around the three minute mark.
It is satisfying when someone taps me on the shoulder and asks: enna rAgam idu? and I mouth the name without a moment's hesitation. On the other hand, I don't drive myself crazy, don't even feel frustrated. It is fun watching all the expressions and questions fly across the rows. Then I settle down to the rAgam, and if it is a classy performance, and the vocalist announces the rAgam at the end, I am happy to add one more rAgam to my store.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 27 Jun 2009, 05:34

R-T, I too don't think it's the artiste's inability to capture the essence of the raga. If TKR had just begun the concert with the phrases at 3.30, it would've given away the identity of the raga immediately. I think this was an intentional tease and a good tease at that. I'm personally not averse to beginning raga alapanai ambiguously once in a while, and in this case, since TKR sings the ragam for 15 minutes, 3.30 is not proportionately a long time at all since he leaves himself ample time to delve into the raga thereafter. Also, the first 3 minutes illustrate the importance of the rishabam to the raga and aren't exactly worthless either.

Incidentally, I was surprised to see you highlighting MDR as an artiste who gives away the raga immediately. I have heard MDR beginning several alapanais with just one or two swaras and teasing both the violinist and audience for a while as well, and there are several anecdotes on the net about how MDR would start with singing one or two phrases typical of a certain raga, wait for the violinist to guess the raga and play something extra and definitive, and promptly switch the raga with his next phrase! Of course, I think the cliched compliment about MDR--that every swara he sings is soaked in raga bhavam--is completely accurate, but he liked to have a spot of harmless fun as well

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 27 Jun 2009, 06:31

This kind of thing is perhaps OK once in a while, for a ragam like this, but it isn't a good thing to do this often. Especially when singing an established raga with minor differences from other established ragas.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 27 Jun 2009, 15:16

Perhaps I didn't phrase that well. What I meant is that it's the duty of the artiste to bring out the raga swaroopam early on without introducing ambiguity. To take another example, imagine the ragam that's being sung is Yadukula kambodhi - and the artiste doesn't introduce its characteristic prayogas, but stays with kambodhi for a long time before suddenly introducing y-kambodhi. You may call it a great ability, but in my opinion that is just not good singing.
It may be ok to do a bit of teasing, so long as it's restricted to just few seconds. I have never heard MDR doing this; if you have an example do post it. I would be very interested.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jun 2009, 17:50

I agree. It is more about mischief (kusumbu?) than necessarily a special talent although avoiding one note, a main note of a raga and elaborating does require some talent but I would assume most musicians at that level can do this. But mischief can be fun or downright irritating depending on how we take it. I guess like srikant says, once in a while, it can be fun for me. But if it happens very often, it can be frustrating.

bilahari - I am also interested in MDR sample(s).

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jun 2009, 18:42

for those who may still need this.

The raga is vAgadISwari which differs from harikAmbhOji in only the ri (vagadishwari has R3, nattai ri). In this alapana, T.K. Rangachari explores the raga in the first 3:30 without touching the distinctive vagadishwari ri (i.e. he basically explores ga ma pa da ni Sa). This is guaranteed to fool almost everyone into thinking it is the much more familiar and common harikambhoji (although some way find it to be "incomplete" in some respect). Considering that the duration is 3:30, this one is most probably a planned, intentional ruse

Arun

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 27 Jun 2009, 19:35

wow. i am happy really. i guessed it right.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jun 2009, 20:15

Arun
though you say harikamboji, I was toying with sankarabharanam for a while before reaching 3:30!
though an unconventional sankarabharanam!

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 27 Jun 2009, 20:29

All this playing around is not required. The raga being presented should stand on its own from the very first phrase or even note. Ambiguity should not be part of alapanas in my opinion.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 27 Jun 2009, 20:42

Here's an MDR sample:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/bwkmub
He reveals the swaras one by one, but since this is also the first item of the concert, he may just be warming up his voice! Nevertheless an interesting clip. 0:40 is what confused me into thinking of some other raga (the faintest brush of the madhyamam, it felt like to me).

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 27 Jun 2009, 20:44

I also agree that these tricks should only be unleashed on us anxious raga-guessing rasikas only occasionally. If every raga alapanai started like this, I'd die of anxiety.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 27 Jun 2009, 20:51

Another MDR:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/vjzq3c
The first twenty seconds are G,,, GRG,,,, GRS,,,, and then when he touches the nishadam below, I think I know what's coming, and it's duly confirmed around 0:25. I wouldn't say MDR ever misleads though, which is certainly what TKR is doing.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Jun 2009, 21:48

I feel more foolish now

My swara identification skills are very poor, I was going by the feel it produced. First 4 seconds gave me the feel of Harikambhodi or kamas. After that until 3:30, I thought it was Kharaharapriya, though I thought something is wrong with that assessment as well but I did not get a harikambodhi feel. I do not know vagadeeswari at all, so at 3:30, I only knew that things changed dramatically.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 27 Jun 2009, 21:50

I too was thinking HK or khamAs.

Jigyaasa · Post by **Jigyaasa** » 27 Jun 2009, 23:36

The first time I heard this, I was thinkin, maybe cuz it's a vivAdi note n he didn't really wanna emphasise on it, he sang a very large fraction of the AlApana without it... But I dunno if this rationale is correct...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Jun 2009, 00:04

no, no. As bilahari mentions the total alapana is actually much longer than what I posted. TKR was just being mischievous.

I also think that perhaps no one would be leaning towards cakravAkam in that first 3:30 mins although it is similar relation with vAgadISwari as harikAmbhOji.

cml,vk: - dont feel bad. In that 3:30 among the swaras presented, you guys were off by just one - ga for vk, and ni for cml

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Jun 2009, 00:17

That MDR1 was humorous. I thought it would be begada

Arun

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 28 Jun 2009, 00:27

i also have not heard vagadeeswari. but just replaced ri in harikambodhi and referred to the melakarta chart. and found out the 34th mela.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jun 2009, 02:08

In the cine world Ilayaraja (IR) tries to handle CM ragas in a way which makes guessing the raga difficult. He has been criticized for that while veterans like TKR are lauded for playing games! Don't CM Rasikas have a double standard?
I side with R-T on the issue of making the raga explicit at the outset without mangling or rearranging the swaras and doing the gymnastics (?acrobatics) later!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Jun 2009, 02:38

come cml - who is looking for controversy here

?

1. I did not see anyone give special praise to TKR here for doing this. The most people have said was this was a nice *tease*.
2. I assure you that the rasikas who frown upon TKR would not even look in IR's direction, and when forced to look, will look away quickly UNLESS they recognize #3 below.
3. The genre in which IR operated is not the same.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jun 2009, 03:08

Arun
I concede #3!
But I have been watching some of the episodes of 'isai payanam' by Charulatha Mani(CM). When she 'decodes' some of the embedded phrases in IR's songs (at times ARR too) it comes out as a surprise. Perhaps the kind of thrill TKR's tease with HK. Only that IR does it more often and does mix the different ragas in an 'avial'. I prefer MKT's straight raga singing to IR's approach any day! Intellectually we are crazy about identifying the raga though it has nothing to do with enjoying good CM!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 28 Jun 2009, 13:40

Arun, I too was thinking bEgaDa!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 28 Jun 2009, 14:19

Intellectually we are crazy about identifying the raga though it has nothing to do with enjoying good CM!

Not quite true. The identification of the ragam provides the context in which to appreciate the singing. Please listen to the Ayyalore raga rendition that I have mentioned in post #5. For close to 40 seconds all you hear is Hindolam, before he suddenly changes course. Is this good singing? I wonder.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 28 Jun 2009, 14:32

R-T, yeah, the twist occurred at 0:47, though I was having doubts with the brigha sangathis at 0:30 already. Certainly sounded very much like hindOLam initially. But I'm still a bit wary of using this to judge the merit of the singing... Surely it's not difficult for a majority of concert-level artistes to unambiguously reveal the identity of the raga at the start of the alapanai? For me, bad singing would be if the rest of the jayantaSrI were filled with hindOLam phrases, totally confusing both ragas, which would show that the artiste is either carelessly treading on other neighbouring ragas or does not really have a clue about the character of the raga he's singing. But an ambiguous start does not irritate me so much, at least not in any of the recordings discussed in this thread, and I wouldn't call it bad singing either. Besides, this seems to be a rare occurrence anyway.

I think another question to consider is, is the artiste intentionally leading the audience up the garden path? If the artiste was genuinely confused or disoriented and unintentionally started an alapanai this way, it might not be good singing. But if the ruse is intentional as it seems to be in TKR's case, then I don't think I'd label it bad singing. In Ayyalore's case, I'm not sure which it is (I'm inclined to think, actually, that it was not intentional--it almost seems like he has a change of heart early into the alapanai and decides to switch ragas, though this is just my 'gut feeling').

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 28 Jun 2009, 14:57

it almost seems like he has a change of heart early into the alapanai and decides to switch ragas

Bingo, this is the impression I too had, listening to this alapanai. I suspect other artistes may also hae done this in the past; there's possibly recordings available too of these. These could provide fodder for Arun's blog!

Btw, the couple of MDR clips seem to be more a case of 'throat-clearing' and not full-fledged alapanais?
MDR tends to do this sa-pa-sa type of stuff for several songs, and they all sound (almost) the same, bordering on S'bharanam/Kedaram. And then he takes off into some other ragam.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 28 Jun 2009, 17:41

Actually, what bilahari says is right: in the range gmpdns, it's really hard to bring out harikambhoji and khamas distinctly from each other too. But if you have a rgmp, you can be sure it's harikambhoji.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Jun 2009, 19:15

That ayyalore rendition did sound a lot like hindolam initially - perhaps primarily because of the opening phrase - which seemed to me like stock hindolam opening phrase. But I guess for some reason he chose to anchor on ma at the start (coming from below), and then proceeded to show pa. The anchor phrases in ma, without any pa, would lead most of us to hindolam - particularly when done at the start

!

Again, I am not saying this is good vs. bad, as I have said that it seems best when you reveal the raga in the first 1-2 phrases. However, the problem may be magnified by the status of hindolam w.r.t jayantaSri in most of our minds. There is definitely a pecking order w.r.t ragas (khamAs > harikAmbhOji, harikAmbhOji > cakravAham > vAgadIswari (in the gmpdns subset) etc. Artists are usually very well aware of it - but sometimes for reasons bilahari mentions may intentionally/unintentionally not adhere to it.

Arun

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 30 Jun 2009, 21:30

Arun, while I agree there's a certain pecking order for ragas, they also have certain prayogas that identify them uniquely. So while vagadhiswari and H.kambodhi do share swaras, one should sing them differently even while staying in the 'shared' region. SRJ mentions this in the context of kalyani vs S'bharanam where he says certain prayogas are kalyani ones that should not occur in S'bharanam and vice versa.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Jul 2009, 00:12

...obviously

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 14 Dec 2009, 05:49

Here is a nice MDR one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWLF-e0DXLs
The initial part might just be warming up exercises as R-T says, but it's still rather surprising when the shift happens.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Dec 2009, 06:02

The reveal is at the 39th second, right? Before that, it sounds like general warm up.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 14 Dec 2009, 06:19

Yes. The P-D2-P-S right before the reveal was what heightened the surprise for me.