Etymology for "sankIrna"

Languages used in Carnatic Music & Literature
Post Reply
srkris
Site Admin
Posts: 3456
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
Location: London, UK
x 16
x 41
Contact:

#1

Post by srkris » 22 Aug 2006, 02:52

Does someone know of an etymology for the word "sankIrna" as in sankirna gati...? What is its meaning? Also for khanda and misra. When a distinct word pancha is available, why khanda? Similarly for sapta vs misra and nava vs sankIrna.
0 x

ramakriya
Posts: 1833
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05
x 1

#2

Post by ramakriya » 22 Aug 2006, 04:08

One of the meanings (most common one , AFAIK) of sankIrNa is complex, complicated etc.

I have no idea why the names have been handed over like this over the generations. However, originally there
was no 7 tALa * 5 jAti system. Each of the suLAdi sapta tALa had only a fixed jAti ( eg: dhruva tALa meant
chaturashra dhruva, and tripuTa meant trishra tripuTa).

I think extending the 5 jAtis to 7 tALas is post Purandara dAsa development.

-Ramakriya
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
Location: Maidstone, UK
x 1

#3

Post by drshrikaanth » 22 Aug 2006, 20:11

ramakriya wrote:However, originally there was no 7 tALa * 5 jAti system. Each of the suLAdi sapta tALa had only a fixed jAti ( eg: dhruva tALa meant
chaturashra dhruva, and tripuTa meant trishra tripuTa).

I think extending the 5 jAtis to 7 tALas is post Purandara dAsa development.

-Ramakriya
The 5 jAtis to the 7 tALas was a contribution of purandaradAsa only and not a development after his time. He systematized the tALas and clasiified the 7*5 jAtis. Of course the 5 in which he set alankAras came to be the default ones for each type as they are the ones taught and sung most often.
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
Location: Maidstone, UK
x 1

#4

Post by drshrikaanth » 22 Aug 2006, 20:15

My thoughts on the names. tryaSra (triSra/ tiSra) and caturaSra need no explanation. khaNDa because it is tryaSra and half of caturaSra(khaNDa) joined. miSra because it is a conjoining (miSra) of tryaSra and caturaSra. And sankIrNa because it is a complex mix of khaNDa( which itself is a combination) and caturaSra.
0 x

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
x 2

#5

Post by arunk » 22 Aug 2006, 20:38

drs,

so the word khanDa implies/hints-at "joining"? And the word miSra implies/hints-at "conjoining"? Can you please clarify? maybe with examples of usage of these words in other contexts with their meanings (if appplicable)

Thanks
Arun
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
Location: Maidstone, UK
x 1

#6

Post by drshrikaanth » 22 Aug 2006, 20:54

arunk wrote:drs,

so the word khanDa implies/hints-at "joining"? And the word miSra implies/hints-at "conjoining"? Can you please clarify? maybe with examples of usage of these words in other contexts with their meanings (if appplicable)

Thanks
Arun
Apologies if my words were ambiguous/nebulous.
I had no intentions of implying different meanings for "joining" and "conjoining". khaNDa does not mean nor does it hint at "joining". khaNDa means a piece or fragment/part of the whole. miSra means mixture. It does not beg for an example as that is simply what it means.
0 x

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
x 2

#7

Post by arunk » 22 Aug 2006, 21:42

no apologies necessary drs. I had no clue as to what those words meant and so i was trying to figure out your reasoning.

> khaNDa means a piece or fragment/part of the whole. miSra means mixture
this answers my question. Thanks!

Arun
0 x

ramakriya
Posts: 1833
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05
x 1

#8

Post by ramakriya » 22 Aug 2006, 21:53

drshrikaanth wrote:
ramakriya wrote:However, originally there was no 7 tALa * 5 jAti system. Each of the suLAdi sapta tALa had only a fixed jAti ( eg: dhruva tALa meant
chaturashra dhruva, and tripuTa meant trishra tripuTa).

I think extending the 5 jAtis to 7 tALas is post Purandara dAsa development.

-Ramakriya
The 5 jAtis to the 7 tALas was a contribution of purandaradAsa only and not a development after his time. He systematized the tALas and clasiified the 7*5 jAtis. Of course the 5 in which he set alankAras came to be the default ones for each type as they are the ones taught and sung most often.
I remember reading something to this effect in an article by Prof R Satyanarayana - Will try to get hold of that. There is always a chance that my memory is failing :-)

-Ramakriya
0 x

srkris
Site Admin
Posts: 3456
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
Location: London, UK
x 16
x 41
Contact:

#9

Post by srkris » 23 Aug 2006, 01:45

As far as my current understanding goes these are the literal meanings:

khaNDa - fragmented/broken (DRS interprets this as a 3 + half of 4, so broken ;))
misra - blended/combined/mixed
saMkIrNa - mingled/put together/spread out

It would be interesting to know why these names are used instead of the numbers which they represent, and why only for these three is this kind of name used, the other two having their normal names tisra and chatusra? Okay so misra makes sense... it is a combination of tisra and chatusra. How to link the other two?
0 x

vasya10
Posts: 101
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 22:32
Location: USA
Contact:

#10

Post by vasya10 » 06 Feb 2007, 05:23

isnt it a coincidence that by katayapadi scheme, khaNDa is 5 (kha =2 + Da=3 implies 2+3=5)... ? So does miSra -- ma = 5 + ra = 2 (5+2) = 7 ?

but of course, it doesnt work for sankirNa (which would be 7+1+[0 or 9], depending on the scheme).
0 x

Christian Kenit Ram
Posts: 48
Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Location: Vienna , Austria
x 3
x 4

#11 Re: Etymology for

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 19 Jul 2018, 23:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq7ev5V_9xE

Sashikira gives a different twist to Khanda , while still maintaining the meaning of fragmentation .
0 x

Christian Kenit Ram
Posts: 48
Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23
Location: Vienna , Austria
x 3
x 4

#12 Re: Etymology for

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 20 Jul 2018, 15:51

Cross-posting from :

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15980&start=150#p198080

" Strictly speaking, there are only two basic jatis - chaturashra (4) and tishra (3). ....

Mishra (mixture of the two fundamentals) = 4+3.
Khanda (split) = 4+3+3 / 2
Sankeerna (integration) = 4+5 "
0 x

Post Reply