Compositions that reflect contemporary themes.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Jan 2008, 12:22

prashant wrote:Couls someone re-upload the hindOLa piece? I cannot access it.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/2g2c6x

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 30 Jan 2008, 07:20

Thanks for the re-upload, Suji Ram. Do you (or anyone else) know a better file upload service than sendspace (i.e. one that keeps the file online for longer). I earlier used rapidshare, which would leave the file online for longer than sendspace does.

Best Wishes,
SR

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Jan 2008, 11:05

Sangeet Rasik wrote:Thanks for the re-upload, Suji Ram. Do you (or anyone else) know a better file upload service than sendspace (i.e. one that keeps the file online for longer). I earlier used rapidshare, which would leave the file online for longer than sendspace does.

Best Wishes,
SR

I don't know which one lasts longer. But one alternative is to upload at http://boomp3.com/
here, the files stay permanently (I think).
However, one cannot download these files but can hear it from this site itself.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 12 Feb 2008, 10:47

The next composition presented is regarding Gotama the Buddha. Note this is not a "religious" composition but rather of a philosophical and biographical nature. The audio will be posted soon after my return from out of town.

Best Wishes,
SR

PS: The composition of M. Dikshitar entitled "brhaspate tarapate" (raga athana) is efficacious in curing stomach ailments. In addition to the enjoyment of shastriya sangeet, I encourage the rasiks to sing/listen to/meditate upon the present composition in order to aid the treatment of stress, neurosis, and other psycho-physiological conditions (both of a temporary as well as chronic nature).

â€œsiddhArthagautamam bhaja rEâ€

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 12 Feb 2008, 12:47

Sangeet Rasik: Nice compositions, especially the most recent on siddhArtha gautama.

All the audio links are defunct. Wondered if rasikas who managed to download be able to to reupload on Rapidshare and share the links.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2008, 21:48

SR,
Such a fine composition. I sang it and found sAvEri to be perfect for this! While your other compositions are impressive a la MD, this one has a lyrical quality and the song just flows.
SabAsh!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Feb 2008, 22:51

Well done SR! For once in simple sanskrit

My 2 cents
kratu traditionally means sacrifice. When it means 'intelligence' it denotes intelligence derived from adhering to vedic sacrifices. Further 'kratumayasatkarmANi' would typically refer to 'good sacrificial acts'. It is ludicrous (unless you meant a double entendre ) since gautama was a heretic waging a lifelong war against vedas and sacrifices

The epithet 'SramaNa' was used to indicate buddhist mendicant though pejoratively!

You have nicely captured succinctly the different 'mArgas' (paths) of buddhism contrasting them finally with the advaita!

I enjoyed the subtle reference in 'nAyakasuvacanam' and the following advice

I don't know whether 'brhaspate' cures colic or not; but your 'siddharthagautama' appears to be helpng my computer hiccoughs and I hope to be back on-line soon

(though what I have lost is lost for ever

which as Shankar says que sera sera ...
( fits in with prabodhacandrOdayam !)

Cheers!
Await your lovely rendition....

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2008, 23:00

CML,
May the great Buddha cure all ailments!
I remember that in our younger days it was believed that singing 'BruhaspatE' would bring a young woman a good husband --vyAzhAnukUlam...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Feb 2008, 23:20

Right! Guru Kripa..

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 13 Feb 2008, 06:46

Thanks to all rasiks, for the comments.

CML,

cmlover wrote:kratu traditionally means sacrifice. When it means 'intelligence' it denotes intelligence derived from adhering to vedic sacrifices. Further 'kratumayasatkarmANi' would typically refer to 'good sacrificial acts'. It is ludicrous (unless you meant a double entendre ) since gautama was a heretic waging a lifelong war against vedas and sacrifices

Yes, indeed it was a double entendre, and a well deliberated one at that.

Firstly, this piece is not peddling "Buddhist propaganda", nor endorsing Buddhist religious beliefs. Both in pallavi and charanam I assert the validity of Vedic/Vedantic/Sanatani principles. So yes, taking "kratumaya" in the Vedic sense and "karmani" also in the vedic sense (of ritualism) is perfectly OK.

Secondly, the meaning of many words has evolved in the period between Vedic and Classical (or even Upanishadic) Sanskrit. Just as the meaning of "karmANi" has evolved from the strict Vedic meaning "of Ritualistic Action" into a Classical meaning of "actions/works" in general, so does "kratumaya" evolve from the meaning of "sacrificially wise" into generally "wise" or "selfless". In my opinion this had already happened by the Upanishadic period. Let us recall, for example, Isha Upanishad 17: "kratO smara kRtam smara". Here "kratu" can be interpreted literally (i.e. the seer is telling the Lord to remember all the Vedic sacrifices he performed). But that is absurd and is not the true meaning of the Isha Upanishad, which is by no means a document upholding Vedic sacrifices. "kratu" here means the "spiritual intelligence" or "internal sacrifice" of spiritual contemplation. So, in summary, "kratumaya" as a word in classical sanskrit does not relate to vedic sacrifices.

The epithet 'SramaNa' was used to indicate buddhist mendicant though pejoratively!

Perhaps in some ultra-sectarian circles. The buddhists use it reverentially, not pejoratively. Overall it is not a pejorative. It is like the word "fakir" which as such has no negative connotations but is used derisively by some.

Await your lovely rendition....

Forthcoming!

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Feb 2008, 23:05

What a subtle backhanded compliment to the venerable Sakhya Muni

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Feb 2008, 23:20

CML,
With all due respect for the man, I read a few years ago in the New Yorker about the Dalai Lama. Sorry, SR for meandering away from the classic presentation of yours. It was reported that the great man enjoys a steak. I have no intention of starting a heated religious or a political discussion. However, since he is a 'descendant' of the very SAkya muni, I wondered. I do know though that many buddhists are not vegetarians.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Feb 2008, 00:49

arasi
Who said buddhists are vegetarians?
Having done a stint at Burma I know that religious buddhists are quite fond of meat but they will not do the killling but get it done through Muslim butchers (who again will only eat halal meat!)
(interestingly devout muslims who live around here will not eat non-halal meat and hence many have become vegetarians

...and so it goes round and round

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 14 Feb 2008, 07:52

Arasi,

Vegetarian morality is not all black and white, although it is my personal belief that vegetarianism is a good thing all round.

1. tradition holds that sAhkyamuni himself died (or, attained nirvAna) after eating contaminated pork.
2. Rama, Sita, etc... were not vegetarians either.
3. In the last couple years, Dalai Lama has finally expressed support for vegetarianism and his establishment is McLeodganj near Dharmsala is vegetarian.
http://rawveg.info/buddhistvegetarian.html

cmlover has some interesting observations. Halal/Kosher methods of "humane" slaughter are in fact extremely inhuman. Kosher slaughterhouses slash the throats of cows and hoist them by their hind legs and let them bleed to death. Apparently, this prevents the carcass from being "contaminated" by the blood, which is forbidden according to Leviticus! Some humane, huh ?!

But not all vegetarianism leads to lofty thought, apparently. A lot of wealthy urban Gujarati Hindus are vegetarians as well as the world's greatest practitioners of female feticide. The female to male sex ratio in urban Gujarat (Surat, Ahmedabad) and Punjab are among the lowest in India. The ultrasound is their great modern tool in their quest for the ultimate prize - the male child ! Hopefully they will eventually turn into an all male population and die out. That would be a cause for celebration. Such people have earned their well-deserved extinction ! Clearly, kosher cow slaughter is preferable to Indian female foeticide vegetarianism.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Feb 2008, 08:44

Neither were the brahmins vegetarians during vedic times. Ashvalayana sutra mentions 'gOghna' (those who kill the cow for the choice meat to feed the special guests. The puranic legend of Agastya eating the goat and the subsequent destruction of the asura vAtApi is well known! In fact vegetarianism became prevalent in SI due to jainism. But then Uday's reference to feticide among gujaratis (many of whom are jains) is an eye opener!

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 14 Feb 2008, 11:01

arasi wrote:CML,
With all due respect for the man, I read a few years ago in the New Yorker about the Dalai Lama. Sorry, SR for meandering away from the classic presentation of yours. It was reported that the great man enjoys a steak. I have no intention of starting a heated religious or a political discussion. However, since he is a 'descendant' of the very SAkya muni, I wondered. I do know though that many buddhists are not vegetarians.

Oh yes, you are right Arasi. But I have also heard that the Dalai Lama gave up on meat (steak !) eating a long time back and has since turned a vegetarian. He did acquire a heart problem though as his alternative veg diet included lots of peanuts and milk !

The diet part notwithstanding , I have held the Dalai Lama in the highest regard for his non violent struggle for a Free Tibet , apart from the fact that he is undoubtedly one of the spiritual giants of today.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 14 Feb 2008, 11:11

Uday_Shankar wrote:Clearly, kosher cow slaughter is preferable to Indian female foeticide vegetarianism.

I agree with all your contentions Uday except for this last line

Those indulging in Kosher slaughter and female foeticide are both taking life. Moreover female foeticide is not the exclusive preserve of vegetarian Gujaratis. It is also highly prevalent in "Non Veg" Punjab as you have stated and Maharastra , Haryana and Tamilnadu. This is more of a cultural issue where girls are thought to be future liabilities.However the general assumption by many that human life is more valuable than all other forms of life has lead us to the present situation today wherein cruelty to animals is not only given a blind eye but also condoned..

As Mahatma Gandhi had said, the abolition of human and animal suffering can be accomplished only by means that do both together.

By the way , Buddha dying of eating pork is not accepted by many Buddhists especially those from China and the Far East. Most Buddhists texts of these countries say that it was a poisonous mushroom which caused His death!

Ofcourse the Buddha was vehemently against sacrifices & cruelty towards animals as can be ascertained from His memorable quote:

"All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All love life. See yourself in others.
Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do? "

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 14 Feb 2008, 15:13

cmlover wrote:But then Uday's reference to foeticide among Gujaratis (many of whom are Jains) is an eye opener!

CML , you may find this a little surprising (& ironical if I may add).

The silver coloured foil used for decorative purposes on most sweets is not vegetarian (as we normally presume). It is called "Varak" and obtained by a process in which thin strips of silver are placed between layers of Ox- gut and hammered to produce the glittering foil.

Jains dominate this business in which 275 tons of silver are consumed (literally) by Indians every year !!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Feb 2008, 21:31

Cienu,
Not only an eye opener but an eye popper! Shocking! Reminds me of those days in America when many vegetarians did not know that McDonald's french fries were cooked in animal fat. When they were on the road and stopped for a cup of coffee, they ordered the french fries too.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 15 Feb 2008, 09:20

Female feticide is a great social evil and I get the feeling it was mistake on my part to bring it into this discussion. I think the rest of the forum members are trivializing it. I only mentioned it to point out that there are different shades to the matter:

1. Vegetarian habits do not by themselves lead to enlightened thought; case in point Gujarat.

2. Enlightened thought could lead to vegetarianism; Vegetarianism eventually becomes a necessity to make any kind of progress in most spiritual/mystical pursuits. Even Swami Vivekananda turned totally vegetarian towards the end of his life, although his enlightenment was beyond such restrictions.

3. Vegetarianism among many Indians (including me and most of my relatives) is/was just a force of habit and not due to any deep concerns about animal cruelty, etc.. Case in point, while people may instinctively recoil from overt meat, etc.. they are quite comfortable consuming cakes with eggs or sweets with a varakh layer on them or cheese made with animal rennett.

4. India is the only place in the world where you can find lifelong, diehard vegetarians who hate most vegetables (and instead prefer mostly vegetarble-free vegetarian items such as bajji, bonda, idli, vadai, dosai, etc...). This is much more unhealthy and self-destructive than a non-vegetarian diet.

5. India is the only place in the word where you can find lifelong, diehard vegetarians who have no love of animals; most visitors to my house recoil from our dog, a huge, friendly creature that loves to be petted and wouldn't harm a fly. By the way, among vaggeyakaras of the past, Patnam Subramania Iyer was an animal lover - he kept dogs, cows and other animals as pets. Ramana Maharshi love and kindness towards all animals is legendary. But there's no dearth of saffron-clad swamijis who recoil from the very thought of an animal in the vicinity, unless it is a sacred cow or a tame sacred elephant.

Conclusion
It is better to graduate from ritual vegetarianism to a socially responsible, heart-felt, health-oriented vegetarianism. That must have been the original intent of the habit. It still is among non-vegetarians who turn vegetarian.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 15 Feb 2008, 10:43

I am back. The recording of "siddharthagautamam bhajare" is posted.

Best Wishes,
SR

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 15 Feb 2008, 10:57

Well said Uday. I whole heartedly agree with all your sentiments.

Kindly do not misunderstand what I had expressed. Female Foeticide is a terrible social evil. There can be no 2 opinions about it.

My only point was that it was not necessary to juxtapose this abominable practice alongside Kosher cow slaughter and hypothetically rate one as better or worse than the other.

SR , Sorry , this thread had meandered into different territories while you were away

Now over to you once again!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Feb 2008, 12:23

SR,
The sAvEri composition is masterly done!. The sangatis at the first line sound very nice esp the "bhaja rE"
Congrats.

It will take me many more listenings to capture each line and the lyrics around the contours of the raga.
A tough one indeed!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Feb 2008, 12:28

Sangeet Rasik wrote:I am back. The recording of "siddharthagautamam bhajare" is posted.

Best Wishes,
SR

Marvelous Job SR. That is one heck of a tough song you have weaved together. Well done!! The sangathi development/progression on the first line was much fun to listen/anticipate/enjoy. It kept me engaged.

On the thala, each segment demarcated by '|' or '||', is that 8 2 Kalai counts or the whole line is 8 4 Kalai counts? Just curious.

I get a feeling, especially with this song, that different singers can provide quite different interpretations on top of the melodic framework you have provided with emphasis on different aspects producing different Bhavas.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Feb 2008, 19:53

Uday,
Have been following your posts with great interest.
I realize these are genuine concerns. As a woman, I am perturbed by such a demonic practice and my concern about varak on sweets is trivial compared to the cruelty towards children and animals.
Whether one registered shock (in olden days) or admiration (nowadays) on learning that we are vegetarians, my answer has remained the same: it's just a matter of generations of habit. Nothing to do with convictions or principles. Of course, with the next generation and the next, it is a matter of choice...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Feb 2008, 20:32

Bravo SR!
One of your finest pieces yet. Surely worth being elaborated on a concert circle. It is indeed tough as VK suggests since you have employed a variety of nice sangatis in Saveri. Some of the prayogas are really beautiful and do fit in with the mood of those passages. I mean one should sing it knowing the meaning of the passages. I will liisten to it more carefully yet.

Congratulations!

(If you can notate then we will have the pleasure of listening it through Suji's deft violin magic !

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Feb 2008, 20:51

Uday
Abortion is likely to be a major issue in US Presidential elections; whereas Vegetarianism is a non-issue. The opposite may be true in India (though times are changing for the worse). We cannot assess the spiritual or moral value of humans using 'vegetarianism' as a yardstick as you correctly point out! For that matter neither is CM any closer as a yardstick though some may breakout in rashes if I say so

I shall not shatter pet notions

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 15 Feb 2008, 23:22

Excellent SR,

The raga Saveri was indeed the apt choice for this composition. A neraval at the Anupallavi , I feel , would be great

buddhOttamam paramavinayam | bOdhIvRkshastham anAmayam ||
SuddhOdhanamAyAtanayam | SramaNam karuNAmRtAlayam ||

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 16 Feb 2008, 07:04

Suji Ram wrote:SR,
The sAvEri composition is masterly done!. The sangatis at the first line sound very nice esp the "bhaja rE"
Congrats.

It will take me many more listenings to capture each line and the lyrics around the contours of the raga.
A tough one indeed!

Thanks, Suji Ram. Indeed the pallavi is replete with sangatis and "unusual" prayogas. I hope you enjoy listening and playing this composition. Saveri is a raga that is well worth understanding - it embodies the essence of CM and is an endless source of "amrit ras". I agree with you, the "bhaja re" prayoga is an unconventional and quite pleasing one. I appreciate your discerning attention.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 16 Feb 2008, 07:31

Marvelous Job SR. That is one heck of a tough song you have weaved together. Well done!! The sangathi development/progression on the first line was much fun to listen/anticipate/enjoy. It kept me engaged.

Thanks, VK. As I mentioned to Suji Ram, indeed Saveri is a colossus among ragas. I however feel that even Dikshitar has inexplicably not done full justice to it, neither in the number of compositions or in exploring its full depth. While his "karikalabhamukham" and "srirajagopala" are excellent, I am truly surprised that he did not continue detailed exploration of this raga which is extremely suited for expressing contemplative themes.

On the thala, each segment demarcated by '|' or '||', is that 8 2 Kalai counts or the whole line is 8 4 Kalai counts? Just curious.

Yes, each half of the line is 8 2-kalai counts (one full aditala cycle). Each full line is 2 adi tala cycles. In many CM compositions each line is split into two halves. The "yati" (rhyming of the first syllable) punctuates the two halves of the same line.

I get a feeling, especially with this song, that different singers can provide quite different interpretations on top of the melodic framework you have provided with emphasis on different aspects producing different Bhavas.

Yes. In my opinion, the pallavi should be designed to attract the listener, the anupallavi to keep the initial attention, and the charanam should explore the depths of the raga. I think the most "differentiation" between singers will probably be in the first two lines of charanam, but of course I am open to being disproved ! The standard disclaimer - I am sure others can sing it better than me.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 16 Feb 2008, 07:41

cmlover wrote:One of your finest pieces yet.

Much more is to come from the "sangraha" of compositions. Please stay tuned. Old compositions are continuously being polished before presentation, and newer ones are being created.

I mean one should sing it knowing the meaning of the passages.

I agree, it is very helpful to sing this composition - especially charanam - with some understanding of Indian philosophy (whether astika or nastika). Saveri (and in general the mayamalavagaula family) is very useful in contemplative compositions.

(If you can notate then we will have the pleasure of listening it through Suji's deft violin magic !

This is easier said than done. The effort itself is not that huge, but I do wonder if it is better to learn Indian classical music through listening and imbibing the raga bhava, rather than through notation ?

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 16 Feb 2008, 07:45

arasi wrote:SR,
Such a fine composition. I sang it and found sAvEri to be perfect for this! While your other compositions are impressive a la MD, this one has a lyrical quality and the song just flows.
SabAsh!

Thanks, Arasi. Since you sang it before I posted the recording, you can actually compare the flow of the composition as imagined by you and as sung by me. It would be interesting to know how significant the difference was. I have often contemplated whether the sahitya (to some extent at least) defines the musical treatment, i.e. one may be able to "guess" the music to some extent just from reading the sahitya and knowing the raga of the composition. I think that it is in this department that CM stands head and shoulders over any other form of music - the integration of sahitya and sangeet, not only in a technical sense but also in a more intuitive aesthetic sense.

SR

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Feb 2008, 07:55

but I do wonder if it is better to learn Indian classical music through listening and imbibing the raga bhava, rather than through notation ?

You are absolutely right!. I prefer this way
-internalize the raga bhava first. I enjoy this kind of exercise. Feels good when I finally figure out every bit of the sangati.
May try one of your "simpler" compositions.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 16 Feb 2008, 08:11

cienu wrote:A neraval at the Anupallavi , I feel , would be great

You certainly picked the correct spot !

SR

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 17 Feb 2008, 10:39

Yes, each half of the line is 8 2-kalai counts (one full aditala cycle). Each full line is 2 adi tala cycles.

In the pallavi of this composition however, the second line corresponds to only one full adi tala cycle. Am I correct? (I do not get 2 adi tala cycle)

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 18 Feb 2008, 01:25

Suji Ram wrote:In the pallavi of this composition however, the second line corresponds to only one full adi tala cycle. Am I correct? (I do not get 2 adi tala cycle)

Yes, the second line of pallavi is in madhyamakala, so each half gets compressed into a half-cycle of adi tala. Same is true for madhyamakala portions of anupallavi and charanam. You can also reckon the tala with 1-kalai beats (i.e. double the speed of your finger/hand movements) if that is easier, so each vilambitakAla line will be 4 adi tala cycles and each madhyamakAla line will be 2 cycles.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 18 Feb 2008, 01:33

PS: I don't know if you noticed, but the previous composition "mamavamanikantha" is a "trikala" composition - it effectively has all three kalas. E.g. the first line of pallavi and anupallavi is vilambit (8 chapu tala cycles), the second line of pallavi and anupallavi is madhyam (4 chapu tala cycles), whereas the last line of the charanam is effectively drut - although it also covers 4 cycles, the number of syllables is almost exactly double that of the madhyamakala lines.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Feb 2008, 03:07

Dear SR

Just to make the point that CM is equally personal I hhave attempted your lyric in my own style and imagination. As I wanted the lyric to be fully complimentary to the great sage I have made some subtle changes. In particular I have changed:
1. the last part of second line to
'kratumaya asatkarmANi akuru rE '
(Don't perform vile acts like sacrifices (especially animal sacrifice!)
2. The last line of the lyric to:
'ahO muni vacanam SrNu rE | Ashaarahita jIvaM bhava rE || '
(verily listen to the words of the saint: be a desireless human being!)
I made this change particularly to remove your signature and to include the most important command of siddharta!

While yur saveri is magnificent, I have chosen KV as most appropriate for the eerie mood of the teachings.

Here is my tentative rendering

http://www.mediafire.com/?dyd99t9bxmz

I hope I have not offended your sentiments...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 18 Feb 2008, 10:51

CML,

Well done ! I am not offended at all. You have done a nice job of expressing my sahitya in your own imagination.

Your rendition indeed has a rather eerie effect. May Gotama and other Buddhas shower blessings on you. It reminds me of the chanting of the Tibetan monks.

I would also like to urge the rasiks to continue to enjoy this composition in the original form. As the vaggeyakara of the composition (i.e., one who has composed and integrated both the sahitya and the sangita), I will appreciate if the composition continues to be visualized as originally intended.

A few other points:

1. There is nothing uncomplimentary to Buddha in the entire composition. It integrates the contribution of the Buddha with the Vedantic beliefs. In some sections of Hindu belief, the Buddha has already been integrated into Hinduism as an "avatar" of Vishnu.

2. "kratumayasatkarmani" is a Classical Sanskrit term that should not be interpreted in terms of Vedic Sanskrit terms. It has nothing to do with vedic sacrifices.

3. While I am not "in favor" of animal sacrifices, I guess if one wants to get the full benefit of the Vedic sacrifice one must do it correctly. I think the last "real" Vedic sacrifice in India was done by one Dikshitar in Kanchipuram in the 1500s. This was a vajapeya yajna (if I am not mistaken), with the proper horse sacrifices etc. There are some Nambudiris in Kerala continuing to practise srauta yajnas with substitutions of fruits and vegetables but I doubt if the true benefit of the Vedic sacrifices can be derived from such unwarranted substitutions. Of course I am not necessarily saying that people should start doing Vedic sacrifice again (as the Upanishadic seers discovered other methods for achieving salvation), but if one really wants to do it, do it correctly with full respect to the Vedic seers in order for it to work correctly. So I must disagree with your discouraging people from "animal sacrifice". India is a free country, and if a good person wants to attain salvation through correct application of Vedic sacrifice, it is indeed laudable.

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Feb 2008, 23:21

A couple of questions.

1) SR, you pronounce 'gotama' as written gOthamA. I have normally heard it pronounced 'gauthamA'. Is 'gOthamA' the right one? Just curious.

2)

I think the last "real" Vedic sacrifice in India was done by one Dikshitar in Kanchipuram in the 1500s.

Where do you get such authentic-sounding information? And why do you trust that source that much?

I am a bit troubled by this animal sacrifice stuff mentioned in the vedas being applicable even today ( done properly ). Isn't it possible that the world has changed sufficiently that those are not applicable anymore and would not actually bring in the effects/benefits mentioned in the vedas? I assume you take a scientific point of view on things ( based on prior discussions in the Thyagaraja context ), how can you reconcile taking those things as applicable today in the absence of any data to show that one way or the other.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Feb 2008, 02:36

VK,

vasanthakokilam wrote:A couple of questions.1) SR, you pronounce 'gotama' as written gOthamA. I have normally heard it pronounced 'gauthamA'. Is 'gOthamA' the right one? Just curious.

Both are used and are "correct", as far as I know. The root is "go-" (bovine). Gotama = "best of bovines". The root can also be changed to gau- before adding the superlative (-tama). "Gautama" also means the same things.

Where do you get such authentic-sounding information? And why do you trust that source that much?I am a bit troubled by this animal sacrifice stuff mentioned in the vedas being applicable even today ( done properly ). Isn't it possible that the world has changed sufficiently that those are not applicable anymore and would not actually bring in the effects/benefits mentioned in the vedas? I assume you take a scientific point of view on things ( based on prior discussions in the Thyagaraja context ), how can you reconcile taking those things as applicable today in the absence of any data to show that one way or the other.

I did not claim the source was "authentic". I mentioned my thoughts based on what I read years ago. It could be that "authentic" Vedic yajnas were performed even after that. The Vedas are revealed, as far as I know we do not have another revelation that says it is OK to substitute one thing for another in the yajnas. As I mentioned before in another discussion, I take a "scientific" attitude in matters that are of a verifiable and logical nature. Whenever things like "bhakti" and "revelation" come up I have always taken a consistent position that these are not anything to do with logic of science. Vedic revelation is non-verifiable. "Data" does not count (how exactly does one verify that the sacrificed horse has gone to heaven as revealed by the vedas ?). There are limits to logic and verifiability, this is also the position of "advaita" philosophers. Of course, there are people like Charvaka who asked questions like "if the animal being sacrificed goes to heaven, why doesn't the guy doing the sacrifice offer himself or his own father ?". This type of "logical deduction" seems to miss the point.

I am not "supporting" or "condoning" animal sacrifice. Personally, I feel no motivation for the same. In some parts of India it may even be illegal according to modern law. However, this does not change the revelation in any way. If one is intrepid enough to want to do a Vedic yajna, then it seems to me that one should follow the revelation instead of making changes which would/might pervert the sacrifice. In other words, I have no interest in a Vedic sacrifice, but if I ever did, I wouldn't trust the guys who are making substitutions unless I don't mind a possibly defective result. Again, I do not have enough knowledge of prescriptions of Vedic yajnas to tell for sure if a particular substitution is allowed, but my point was more general. There is no "moral superiority" in rejecting animal sacrifice as part of Vedic yajnas, the honest reason for its disappearance is that people began to find it distasteful, and that is fine with me.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Feb 2008, 05:10

It is only gautama (see Buddhist Sanskrit dictionary (by F Edgerton)). In pali language it gets corrupted to become gOtama. The name was given to siddharta due his belonging to the gautama gOtra since the practice in those days was to call somebody using the gOtra name (just as even today folks are referred to as Mr Iyer or Mr. Nair etc based on caste names.

I am not quite happy with the explanations by SR on the issue of animal sacrifice. They are being carried out even today in some temples. In Kerala they were banned by the late Maharaja (cittra tiruNaaL) who was lauded for the edict. Aryans were non vegetarians to start with and there is no need for justification through the veda. MahavIra who predated buddha did take a strong stance on the issue and Emperor Asoka made it into an edict. In Christianity the Lord commands Adam to serve him with choice meat and even encourages him to eat the meat of all animals along with the vegetables. It was not revolting to the ancients. But then what is Life ?
Who can say a bacteria has a lesser life compared to the humans !

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Feb 2008, 07:12

cmlover wrote:It is only gautama (see Buddhist Sanskrit dictionary (by F Edgerton)). In pali language it gets corrupted to become gOtama. The name was given to siddharta due his belonging to the gautama gOtra since the practice in those days was to call somebody using the gOtra name (just as even today folks are referred to as Mr Iyer or Mr. Nair etc based on caste names.

Your first point is certainly valid - in Pali "gautama" can be corrupted to "gotama". But it is in my opinion a misconception that the pali corruption is responsible for the Gotama name. Gotama is also a perfectly correct Sanskrit name. For example, the author of the nyaya sutras is referred to both as Gotama and Gautama.

Regarding gotra names, the shakya clan of Siddharta was either Gotama or Gautama. One can derive Gautama from Gotama by vrddhi (i.e, Gautama is someone descended from Gotama, just as Kautsa is someone descended from Kutsa). At the same time, gotra names can be carried without vrddhi, for example an Iyer's son is also an Iyer. Hence, Gotama is also perfectly valid in my opinion.

I am not quite happy with the explanations by SR on the issue of animal sacrifice. They are being carried out even today in some temples. In Kerala they were banned by the late Maharaja (cittra tiruNaaL) who was lauded for the edict.

I think the main issue here is the question of the revealed word. The animal sacrifices that were carried out in Kerala temples that you are referring to were most certainly not Vedic sacrifices enjoined by revealed word. They are based on "Dravidian" traditions and bhagavati worship etc, a combination of puranic and other older traditions. They are currently confined to very remote districts, if at all they are still practised. For example, in both of our family temples (in Travancore) there have not been any animal sacrifices as far as anyone living can remember. During religious occasions, flowers (such as lilies) are tied together along with palm leaves and plantain leaves, and placed on the sacrificial spot instead of a chicken as was the practice in olden days. I thought animal sacrifice was banned by the female regent (Lakshmi Bai) who ruled in place of Chittra Thirunal. Also, that edict probably only covered Travancore and not other parts of Kerala.

Aryans were non vegetarians to start with and there is no need for justification through the veda.

It seems to me that the main question is not whether the Vedics "needed" to justify animal sacrifice. It is already there in the Vedas and the precise rules for carrying out the sacrifices (as given in the Brahmanas) are not "made up" by humans, they are "shruti". There is hence no question of choice or justification. Of course anyone can take whatever part of the yajna procedure and make changes (just like someone borrowed the revealed Vedic Sanskrit to create/evolve Classical Sanskrit), but that should not be claimed to be a Vedic sacrifice not should it be claimed to have the same benefit.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Feb 2008, 07:34

Yes. It was Rani Lakshmi Bai acting on behalf of the underage monarch who passed the edict under the advice of Divan Sir CP Ramaswamy Iyer.

It is indeed comical that when a similar edict was promulgated in TN by J, there was tremendous opposition in the name of Religious Freedom (since in Islam it is traditional to sacrifice the Lamb during Ramzan and finally she had to withdraw that edict !
( I distinctly recall what Uday wrote in connection with the processs of the preparation of Halal meat !)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Feb 2008, 07:48

Just quting from amarakOshm:
sa shAkyasimhaH sarvArthasiddhaH shauddhodanishca saH |
gautamashcArkabandhushca mAyAdEvIsutashca saH || ( amarakOsham 1.15)
These are the different names of 'buddha' who was named so after attaining enlightenment under the bOdhi tree!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Feb 2008, 09:22

My! All fascinating, though beyond me!
SR, does it concern you then, that the two temples which you are connected with in Kerala merely offer a bundle of lily flowers in place of sacrifice?
You are a bundle of logic and knowledge. I have nothing much to go by but some intuitive stuff and well, my long years with which I might have gathered some moss.
Since you do not seem to be comfortable with substitutions in sacrifices, how do you reconcile to this?
Recently, I had a conversation with a friend. He spoke of divine grace which brings about compositions. I said creativity and divine grace are almost one strand, and I don't know how much or how little I am blessed with of both--and that if they work together, it is bliss. On the other hand, creativity can exist on its own, and can be as farther away from the grace we were talking about!
Sorry, if I am digressing

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Feb 2008, 11:32

A newcomer to this thread, I am catching up very slowly, but I have to suggest that cmlover works

Who can say a bacteria has a lesser life compared to the humans !

into a song or poem!

It is a deep and wonderful sentiment.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Feb 2008, 13:03

Nick,
The malevolent of their kind better be short lived!

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 19 Feb 2008, 13:08

If there is to be an award like Nobelprize for narasthuthi, sangeethrasik will be the universal choice. what are you going to do with the astronomical amount of over 3 crores? gobilalitha

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 Feb 2008, 19:45

CML,

My take on this:

cmlover wrote:Just quting from amarakOshm:
sa shAkyasimhaH sarvArthasiddhaH shauddhodanishca saH |
gautamashcArkabandhushca mAyAdEvIsutashca saH || ( amarakOsham 1.15)
These are the different names of 'buddha' who was named so after attaining enlightenment under the bOdhi tree!

Yes, I know. I understand that "gautama" is the more common usage. That is why it is written as "gautama" in the sahitya of the composition presented by me.

At the same time, Gotama is the original name of the rishi as well as those in his line. In the rig veda, the name of the original rishi is Gotama, and the following rishis in his line are also called Gotamas (not Gautamas) (see RV I.61.16). It is only later (Brahmanas and Upanishads) that the usage of Gautama (vrddhi) came about. Another sage named Gotama wrote the Nyayasutras (which are one of the foundations of nyaya-vaisheshika combination in Indian philosophy). This sage is also referred to as Gotama by later authors.

For a full discussion on interchangeability of Gotama and Gautama, please see N. L. Sinha and M. M. Vidyabhushana, "Nyaya Sutras of Gotama", Introduction, pages 1-12. This is a very good academic work on the Nyaya Sutras, unfortunately it was abused by various "leftist" types to "prove" that the ancient Hindus had "atheists" among them.

SR