Lec-dems in CM

[ragam-talam]

Lecture demonstrations are a great way for rasikas to enhance their understanding of various aspects of our music. I have listened to lec-dems by a few vidwans/vidushis:
- Dr S Ramanathan
- TR Subramaniam
- Vedavalli
- DK Jayaraman
- S Kalyanaraman

and the one and only
- SR Janakiraman

I am interested in finding out the following in this context:
1) What are some of the good lec-dems available that you would recommend?
2) Are there any lec-dem topics that you have found to be of particular interest?
3) Is there a recommended format for lec-dems?
4) What are some of the earliest lec-dems that have been attempted by maestros of the past?

... and of course, any other aspects of lec-dems that forumites would like to talk about.

[rajeshnat]

2) Are there any lec-dem topics that you have found to be of particular interest?

RT,
Nice topic , apart from many great artists you mentioned , you should try BM Sundaram speaking about nAdaswaram, madurai GS Mani talking about film-cm music combination. Shri DR srivastava talking about dikshitar.

Among a lot of current artists I like TMK who talked beautifully about tOdi, sriram parasurAm he is a brilliant speaker and suryaprakAsh once gave a lecture on different voice and voice culture was superb too.

Unfortunately I am not sure if there are recordings available.

[s_hari]

I have heard lec-dem's of MDR, KVN etc. There are few in sangeethapriya.

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads/lecdem/

-hari

[Rasika911]

Among a lot of current artists I like TMK who talked beautifully about tOdi, .

Can u share some of the things he talked about? Is this availible for purchase or download?

[srinivasrgvn]

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[lakshmanan]

I don't know about lec-dems in other forms of music. In CM it is a joke. The performers try to act like scholars and the scholars doing the lec-dem act like performers. The lec dems give the ideal paly ground for them to act like their counter parts! The best combination would be a scholar and a performer doing what they are good at and not each one pretending to be what one is not.
An example is when the performers take up "assignments" abroad and make a fool of themselves while trying to compare CM and Western Classical music (CM is like jazz is the most common cliche) or while trying to compare the Trinity with Beethoven, Mozart, Bach etc with absolutely no sense of the historic context at all. They assume that the best way to impress a westerner is to drop some names.

[ragam-talam]

I was a bit surprise at the outburst from Lakshman-ji...
only to notice later that the post is from Lakshmanan!

Personally, I have found many of the lec-dems quite educative. Why pick on some of the bad ones (if they are there!) when we have so many great musicians presenting excellent lec-dems?

Srinivas - I am interested in the TRS lec-dem you mentioned. Please provide a link if you can. Thanks.

Btw, is there a recommended format for lec-dems? Or is it totally free-format? And how have lec-dems evolved over time?

[vasanthakokilam]

lakshmanan: Don't hold back now

In one of the Sanjay's audio blogs with Dr. N. Ramanathan, the issues surrounding Performer vs Musicologist are discussed. It is worth a listen: http://sanjaysub.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=501600#

Let us indict another group. Those western musicologists who think they understand Indian music and pass overarching commentary. And us, when they make some obvious observations that are indeed true, we then exclaim 'wow, this person actually knows something about our music' when that observation itself is quite trivial. There is a trap there. Having established their credentials in such a trivial way, we then start taking them seriously.

[gn.sn42]

lakshmanan, when a CM artist gives a lec-dem, the audience is by definition very interested in learning more about the music. There's nothing wrong in using some simple connections to get people to relate to what may be a different form of music. I think most people will understand that an introductory talk will simplify matters. If some people in the audience can make some interesting mental connections and then use them to learn more, that is a very nice outcome.

Again, simplistically, what's wrong with comparing some great composers across systems? Why not point out the similarities between improvisational music systems? Anyone who hears the musics can tell that there are significant differences; why not show people ways to conceptually bridge these differences?

vasanthakokilam points out the actual problem - if the audience then concludes that this simplistic view is actually definitive, that is a problem. I don't think most people do. It's like watching a popular science television program - you don't get any serious insight into hard science, but you get a simplified, pleasurable look at some interesting phenomena.

[cacm]

lakshmanan: Don't hold back now

In one of the Sanjay's audio blogs with Dr. N. Ramanathan, the issues surrounding Performer vs Musicologist are discussed. It is worth a listen: http://sanjaysub.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=501600#

Let us indict another group. Those western musicologists who think they understand Indian music and pass overarching commentary. And us, when they make some obvious observations that are indeed true, we then exclaim 'wow, this person actually knows something about our music' when that observation itself is quite trivial. There is a trap there. Having established their credentials in such a trivial way, we then start taking them seriously.

I would like to know some of the Western musicologists you have in mind. I know that this may not be the place to name them. My email is: [email protected]. I am interested bec. chances are I know not just the person but theier history etc. VKV

[srinivasrgvn]

Srinivas - I am interested in the TRS lec-dem you mentioned. Please provide a link if you can. Thanks.

I am in the process of uploading it. I see that cool ji's links are not working.

More than being so informative and educative, it is hilarious. =)

[srinivasrgvn]

Here it is:
The first 3 parts:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/b98cdo

http://www.sendspace.com/file/jpscbc

http://www.sendspace.com/file/cxmuh5

The fourth, I will upload soon.

[Rasika911]

Thanks srinivasrgvn

[rajeshnat]

Among a lot of current artists I like TMK who talked beautifully about tOdi, .

rasika911,

Can u share some of the things he talked about? Is this availible for purchase or download?

I think i may have posted something about this lecture in the erstwhile sangeetham.com (Cant forgive those people there who just pulled the plug and took all the posts without an iota of information). I vaguely recollect what he said, not enough to write but just enough to appreciate that day's TMK

[munirao2001]

Very word Lecture-Demostration in CM, defines that the speaker has to present the theoretical aspects of the topic and demonstrate for the effect of the theory on listening pleasure or listening pleasure effect on the theory development. Many, who can not fully understand the theoretical presentation, appreciate the subject matter, with clear demonstration.
In CM, the practitioner with admirable knowledge of both the theory(lakshana gnanam) and performing(with lakshya gnanam) are respected the most. Fortunately, we have in CM, only few scholars who can not demonstrate or perform. For better understanding and appreciation, I strongly opine that Q&A sessions must be given adequate time. The system on collection of questions, presenting to the speaker, selection and time bound discussions and conlusions should be perfected. Whenever the lecture is published, the Q&A segment of the lecture also should be published for the benefit of the interested readers.
I had the fortune of listening and enjoying the some of the top quality Lec-Demos by Great Maestros/Maestros in the morning sessions of the Music Academy. The topics consisted of:
1) Technical - on lakshanas, instrumental special playing techniques.
2) Vaggeyakaras-their unique contributions, effect of their life experience in their compositions, the reflection of their values in their compositions, pata integrity and both the good improvisations and bad treatment on their compositions, bringing to light some of their unknown or less heard comositions.
3) Melakartha Ragas, both Ghana and Vivadi- raga swaroopa, raga development and raga rasa etc.
4) Pallavis- Structure, composition, prasidha pallavis handled by Great Maestros, rare pallavis, new pallavis, etc.
5) Vioice Culture
7) Forms of CM- Rare pada, padam, keerthanas,tillanas, javalis, devotional, virutham/sloka/ugabhoga/gamaka/vachanas etc.
8) Talas-Aprasidha and rare talas
9) CM history, development, places and patrons etc
10) Life and achievement of Great and Eminent Musicians and Musicologists
11) Teaching and practices in CM-Gurukulam and institutional
12) Comparative forms of Music-mainly HM and WCM
13) Special R-T-P's and Laya vinyasams
14) Special and rare insights on CM, events and organizations etc.
15) Prominent schools of CM-Tanjavur-Ramnad-Mysore-Vijayanagaram(Andhra) and kerala and on vishitatvam of prominent Banis.
The above list is definitely not exhaustive. I am sure many of our members must have attended to many Lec-Demos, covering many other subjects or topics on CM/Music.

We are fortunate to have, with excellent education, research and scholorship, technology, many eminent speakers in the present times, who handle the Lec-Demos, admirably. What is really disturbing and lacking is- our-rasikas- deeper interest, attendance, appreciation and support. Equally disturbing is the attitude and behaviour of many of the musicians and students of music- very insignificant and personally related/connected only make their prescence or attend.

We should also improve and perfect the system of recording, publishing and maintaining the archieves of the Lec-Demos- both of the past and the present for the posterity.

munirao2001

[msakella]

In our Karnataka music, than any other composition, Varnas play a very important role in enlightening our aspirants all the intricacies of oscillations of different notes of Ragas. I feel that a perfect plan is needed in the seriatim of Varnas to be taught to the aspirant to properly pave way to the Manodharma Sangita. For this purpose each and every Varna has to be demonstrated properly by an efficient teacher to enable the student proceed through the Kirtans on his own at the end of Varnas. I am always used to do this to all my students and, at the end of Varnas, I, without directly teaching them even the first Kirtana, am used only to initiate them in learning Kirtanas. Unless the teacher demonstrates all the facets of oscillations of notes of Varnas and teaches them to the aspirant he cannot proceed further in learning Kirtans on his own with the minimum help of his teacher. amsharma

[ragam-talam]

Akella-ji - you are talking about teaching varnams etc. I agree this is quite important.

However, I think lec-dems are directed more towards rasikas who are somewhat knowledgeable and wish to learn about the intricate aspects of our music.

Munirao - do you know of any ongoing projects in the context of what you outlined?

[Rasika911]

In our Karnataka music, than any other composition, Varnas play a very important role in enlightening our aspirants all the intricacies of oscillations of different notes of Ragas. I feel that a perfect plan is needed in the seriatim of Varnas to be taught to the aspirant to properly pave way to the Manodharma Sangita. For this purpose each and every Varna has to be demonstrated properly by an efficient teacher to enable the student proceed through the Kirtans on his own at the end of Varnas. I am always used to do this to all my students and, at the end of Varnas, I, without directly teaching them even the first Kirtana, am used only to initiate them in learning Kirtanas. Unless the teacher demonstrates all the facets of oscillations of notes of Varnas and teaches them to the aspirant he cannot proceed further in learning Kirtans on his own with the minimum help of his teacher. amsharma

Sir if you have recorded some of your workshops can you please share them with us. Thanks.

[srinivasrgvn]

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[msakella]

ragam-talam: For me Varna is the most crucial part of teaching on which the 100 storeys of a palatial building of the aspirant relies upon. If the basement of it is defective entire building collapses at any time. I feel that, than any thing else, the efficiency in teaching Varnas only adjudge the quality of the teacher.

Even in respect of the knowledgeable rasikas, you may be knowledgeable along with some others but all others are not that knowledgeable. In fact, I may be a little more knowlegeable than many others. But, that is not at all enough to declare myself ‘knowledgeable’. I can claim that I am only a senior student and need to learn much.

Rasika911: While going to play any concert or to hold a workshop I had to concentrate much upon the concert or workshop, as the case may be as. I feel, it is always like appearing for an examination either for a concert or a workshop. I did never think of recording any of them. However, at some places they may have been recorded but I do not have any copy of them. amsharma

[munirao2001]

ragam-talam
At Bangalore, Ananya, Percussive Arts Centre, Gayana Samaj, Neelambari, Academy of Music, Karnataka Ganakala parishat and few other organizations conduct lec-demos. Every one must be aware of the activities at Chennai. I have no idea about the activities in other centres.
munirao2001

[KarnatikLover]

Sangeethapriya has Sriram parasuram's lec dems. I believe the title is "The musical idea" or something like that.
Really good stuff.

[ragam-talam]

Would be interested in any lec-dem series being held by the sabhas during the season.
Music Academy does have the morning discussion series, but not sure how of much of dem will be in these lec-dems.

[hyd27007177]

Here it is:
The first 3 parts:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/b98cdo

http://www.sendspace.com/file/jpscbc

http://www.sendspace.com/file/cxmuh5

The fourth, I will upload soon.

Here is the fourth part:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/1mjwo0

[hyd27007177]

the files are removed. Will it be possible to reupload?

sreeram murthy chaturvedula
hyd27007177

[srinivasrgvn]

I have re-uploaded Part 1:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/kbs9bo

I will re-upload the other parts as soon as possible and tell you.

[srinivasrgvn]

Here are the other parts:

Part 2: http://www.sendspace.com/file/j87f1i
Part 3: http://www.sendspace.com/file/qocvq1
Part 4: http://www.sendspace.com/file/ihaumd