Kundram Endi KuLir Mazhai Kattavan Lyrics

[Sundar Krishnan]

This is sung as a Viruttam in a Gayatri Venkataraghavan CD in Dhanyasi.

I would like to have the Lyrics of this song (PAsuram ?), Composer, the common popular Ragams in which this is sung, Talam etc.

If it is a PAsuram, any note on what it's index is in the list, and any other very general info on the no of PAsurams etc, just very briefly, will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

...

[smala]

google brings it up. NammAzhwAr thiruvAymozhi pasuram.

[ksrimech]

nammAzhvAr - tiruvAymozhi - 3.3.8 - ozhivil kAlamellAm padigam - 8th pAsuram
kunRam yEndikkuLir mazhai kAttavan
anRu nyAlam aLanda pirAn paran
senRu sEr tiruvEnkaDa mAmalai
onRumE tozha nam vinai OyumE.

[Sundar Krishnan]

Thanks ksrimech for the Lyrics.

I am new to Pasurams.
If you could kindly expand on the contents of the 1st line of yr reply :
"nammAzhvAr - tiruvAymozhi - 3.3.8 - ozhivil kAlamellAm padigam - 8th pAsuram"
it will be very useful to people like me.

For eg :
- how many Pasurams are there in all ?
- The index 3.3.8 – details of the index system of Pasurams
- Is “ozhivil kAlamellAm padigam” the title of 8th Pasuram ?
- etc etc

Thanks in advance.

…

[ksrimech]

how many Pasurams are there in all ?

tiruvAymozhi alone has 1000 pAsurams. All the works of 12 azhwars and tiruvarangattamudanAr's irAmAnusa nURRandAdi collectively have 4000 verses.

The index 3.3.8 – details of the index system of Pasurams

1. First of all we divide the 1000 pasurams in tiruvAymozhi into sections containing 100 pAsurams each. Each of the 100 is called a Centum (in english) or patthu (in tamizh)
2. Each of the 100 pAsurams are divided in to 10 sections containing 10 pAsurams each. Each of the 10 is called a Decad or padigam
3. Each 10 padigam has 10 pAsuram (poem/stanza). They will be denoted by the number of pAsuram in that list.

So 3.3.8 would mean 3rd Centum 3rd Decad 8th Poem/stanza in english and mUnrAm pattu mUnrAm padigam eTTAm pAsuram in tamizh

This is the system used for tiruvAymozhi. tirumangaiyAzhvAr's periya tirumozhi and other azhvAr's tirumozhis also have similar also has a similar numbering scheme. Other prabhandams like tiruppAvai, tirunEDuntADakam, tirukkuruntAnDakam, tirumAlai, tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi, tiruvezhukURRirukkai, kaNNiNun siruttAmbu and other don't have any specific scheme. The pAsurams are counted one through N (Example: tiruppAvai pAsuram #15 nAyakanAi ninRa, tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi pAsuram #10 - kaDi malar kamalangal, tiruneDuntADakam pAsuram #1 minnuruvAy mannuruvil, etc)

Is “ozhivil kAlamellAm padigam” the title of 8th Pasuram ?

Every padigam gets its name from the first two words of the first pAsuram in that padigam.

Example:
The very first pAsuram in tiruvAymozhi (1.1.1) comes under the "uyarvara uyarnalappadigam".

This pAsuram "kunRamEndi kuLir mazhai kAttavan" appears as the eight pAsuram in the padigam whose first pAsuram starts "ozhivil kAlamellAm uDanAy manni vazhivilA aDimai seyyavENum. Hence that padigam is called ozhivil kAlamellAm padigam.

etc etc

If you tell me what else you want to know, I will be happy to answer.

[Sundar Krishnan]

Thanks ksrimech again for explaining the terms, specially wrt
TiruvAy-Mozhi ‘s 1000 pAsurams= 10 Centums (Patthu) x 10 Decads (Padigam) x 10 pAsuram
and that a Padigam takes it’s name from the 1st 2 words like :
1st pAsuram starts with “ozhivil kAlamellAm uDanAy manni vazhivilA aDimai seyyavENum”. …

*************

Since you have encouraged me to ask further …
[“>> If you tell me what else you want to know, I will be happy to answer. ”]

A) First simple points : {Below, => means implies}
A-1) pAsuram => Poem or Verse – pl confirm.
A-2) prabhandam => Epic or Great Literature ? – pl confirm / comment / elaborate

*************

B) Since all words start with Tiru…, I am splitting the long words to get the import of the meaning.

B-1) So, can “tiruvarangattamudanAr” be split as : “Tiru-Varangatta-MudanAr” ?
If yes, what is the meaning of “Varangatta” ?

B-2) Meaning / split of : “irAmAnusa”

B-3) tirunEDuntADakam, tirukkuruntAnDakam :
How do we split these 2 words to get their meanings ?
The 2nd word has an additional “n” as highlighted.

B-4) Similarly, split / meaning of “TiruvezhukURRirukkai”

If there is a facility to upload in this site, perhaps, you could write these words in Tamizh in big font (hand-written sketch is enough), and attach the scanned jpg sketch ? (the words raised in Point (B) here.)
As a subject, I learnt Tamizh many many decades ago, but, still I can try to ...

*************

C) I have listened to some songs from KVN’s Tiruppavai 1982 CD.
From this link : http://eshop.webindia123.com/buy-thirup ... RU0051.htm and from others, I gathered that there are :

31 : Tiruppavai (TPs) on Lord Krishna, authored by Andal (one of the 12 Vaishnavite saints, Alwars) in Srivilliputtur.
Are they 31 TPs or 30 TPs – see more disc below in (C-4).

20 : TiruVempavai (TVs) on Lord Shiva, authored by Manicka Vachakar (one of the 63 Aruvattimoovar Shaivite saints) in TiruvannaMalai.

10 : Tiruppalli Yezhuchi (TYs) – also on Lord Shiva (?, pl confirm), authored also by Manicka Vachakar – TYs are like Suprabhatam.

C-1) Would appreciate if you could pl confirm / correct / expand on the above numbers, authors, God’s name etc of TPs, TVs, TYs.

C-2) You have put all the above 3 under Prabhandams, also adding other names like TirunEDuntADakam, Tiru-kkurun-tAnDakam, TirumAlai, TiruvezhukURRirukkai etc.
So, I would like to know what else constitutes “Prabhandams”.
For eg, what about Tirukkural ? Does it also come under the classification of a Prabhandam ?
Are Tirukkural verses also called pAsurams ? How many verses are there in Tirukkural ?

C-3) http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Thiruppavai gives one Taniyan Verse : Anna vayaRpudhuvai …
However, someone informed me that there are 3 Taniyans given in a TP book.
Pl comment / correct / expand.
If there are in all, only 3 Taniyans, just in order to have a complete list, I would like to have the lyrics (& meaning) of the other 2 Taniyans also.

C-4) http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Thiruppavai has listed 30 TPs, the 30th being : “Vanga Kadal Kadanthu …”.
However, http://eshop.webindia123.com/buy-thirup ... RU0051.htm states 31 TPs, the 31st being : “Kothai …”
So, are there 31 TPs or 30 TPs ?
Pl clarify.

C-5) As per the 2 links that I have stated above, both give :
TiruppAvai pAsuram #16 : nAyakanAi ninRa
But you have stated the No as TP 15 ??
Pl clarify.

C-6) You have stated TiruppaLLi YEzhucchi (TY) pAsuram #10 : kaDi malar kamalangal
But, the 10th TY (61st Track = 31 + 20 + 10th) in http://eshop.webindia123.com/buy-thirup ... RU0051.htm states 61 : Bhuvaniyir.
In fact, I can’t see the words : “kaDi malar kamalangal” in either site.
Pl clarify.

Thanks in advance.

…

[ksrimech]

A) First simple points : {Below, => means implies}
A-1) pAsuram => Poem or Verse – pl confirm.
A-2) prabhandam => Epic or Great Literature ? – pl confirm / comment / elaborate

Yes to both. People also refer to pAsuram as pADal. pADal is a very general name to a verse. Google search will help. "Project Madurai" website will also help if you want to know about general tamizh literature.

B-1) So, can “tiruvarangattamudanAr” be split as : “Tiru-Varangatta-MudanAr” ?
If yes, what is the meaning of “Varangatta” ?

It is how words are joined in tamizh. In sanskrit it is called sandhi. I dont know the exact word in tamizh.
So, tiru + arangam becomes tiruvarangam. tiru + allikENi becomes tiruvallikENi and tiru + arangattu + amudanAr becomes tiruvarangattamudanAr meaning amudanAr from tiruvarangam. He was a SiSyA of SrI kUrattAzhvAn and was the chief priest at ranganAyaki tAyAr sannidhi.

B-2) Meaning / split of : “irAmAnusa”

In tamizh, words don't start with ra and la. For that the tamizh grammarians decided to add i syllable (sounds like e) before ra and u in front of la. Thats how rAmAnuja became irAmAnusa.

B-3) tirunEDuntADakam, tirukkuruntAnDakam :
How do we split these 2 words to get their meanings ?
The 2nd word has an additional “n” as highlighted.

Its a typo. I should have typed it as tirunEDuntANDakam (tiru + nEDum + tANDakam) and tirukkuRuntANDakam (tiru + kuRum + tANDakam).
tANDakam is a type of poetry and nEDUm and kuRum refer to the length of each verse. nEDUm would have 8 lines while kuRum would have 4 lines.

B-4) Similarly, split / meaning of “TiruvezhukURRirukkai”
If there is a facility to upload in this site, perhaps, you could write these words in Tamizh in big font (hand-written sketch is enough), and attach the scanned jpg sketch ? (the words raised in Point (B) here.)
As a subject, I learnt Tamizh many many decades ago, but, still I can try to ...

It is tiru + ezhu + kURRikkai. You can find all the divya prabhandam here: http://srivaishnavam.com/4000tamil.htm

C-1) Would appreciate if you could pl confirm / correct / expand on the above numbers, authors, God’s name etc of TPs, TVs, TYs.

All I can confirm is that you have gotten yourself confused with the 12 AzhvArs' works and the 63 nAyanmArs' works.
AzhvArs' works: http://srivaishnavam.com/4000tamil.htm
nAyanmArs' works: http://www.shaivam.org/siddhanta/thiru.html

AzhvArs' works are about tirumAl as paradeivam and nAyanmArs' works have paramaSivanAr as paradeivam! So there cannot be any confusion about God's names.

C-2) You have put all the above 3 under Prabhandams, also adding other names like TirunEDuntADakam, Tiru-kkurun-tAnDakam, TirumAlai, TiruvezhukURRirukkai etc.
So, I would like to know what else constitutes “Prabhandams”.
For eg, what about Tirukkural ? Does it also come under the classification of a Prabhandam ?
Are Tirukkural verses also called pAsurams ? How many verses are there in Tirukkural ?

I know prabhandam is a type of poetry but I do not know the etymology. Please do a google search for tirukkuRaL.

C-3) http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Thiruppavai gives one Taniyan Verse : Anna vayaRpudhuvai …
However, someone informed me that there are 3 Taniyans given in a TP book.
Pl comment / correct / expand.
If there are in all, only 3 Taniyans, just in order to have a complete list, I would like to have the lyrics (& meaning) of the other 2 Taniyans also.

There are only two taniyans for tiruppAvai: nILAtungastanagiritaTi by svAmi parASara bhaTTar and "annavayal puduvai ANDAL" by uyyakkoNDAr. Please read: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hare ... erses.html for meanings.

C-4) So, are there 31 TPs or 30 TPs ?

30 pAsurams only. kOdai pirandvUr is like a mangaLa pAsuram created by an acharya later to svAmi rAmAnujAchArya.

C-5) But you have stated the No as TP 15 ??

Typo!

C-6) You have stated TiruppaLLi YEzhucchi (TY) pAsuram #10 : kaDi malar kamalangal
But, the 10th TY (61st Track = 31 + 20 + 10th) in http://eshop.webindia123.com/buy-thirup ... RU0051.htm states 61 : Bhuvaniyir.
In fact, I can’t see the words : “kaDi malar kamalangal” in either site.

You have listened to mANikkavAsagar's tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi and gotten confused it with toNDaraDippoDiyAzhvAr's tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi. The last pAsuram of toNDaraDippoDiyAzhvAr's tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi starts with "kaDi malar kamalangal". Please refer to the links give previously to get the right verses.

Also, I would suggest to you that you do a google search before you come up with questions. More than this if you have questions, we should talk about it over personal emails instead of wasting forum space!

[Sundar Krishnan]

Thanks ksrimech for yr above replies.
Thanks specially for the sandhi details.

*******************

ksrimech : You have listened to mANikkavAsagar's tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi and gotten confused it with toNDaraDippoDiyAzhvAr's tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi.

Anyone who is not aware that there are 2 TYs - mANikkavAsagar's tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi vs toNDaraDippoDiyAzhvAr's tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi - is bound to be curious about any poem like “kaDi malar kamalangal”, which he has not found in any of the sites that he has so far referred to on this topic.
I wonder if people other than those who have read Tamil as a subject in the School for a few years (like say, upto 10th or upto 12th), would know facts like these ??

So, when one says (or searches for) tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi (TYs), what is the “default” TY ?
When googling with just “tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi”, the very first 2 results – the raaga links refer actually only to TVs’ songs ;
Two other initial links : http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Thirupalliyezhuchi(Tamil) and http://stotraratna.awardspace.com/stotra/Shiva/sh45.pdf - both start with Potri Yen and end with Bhuvaniyir (no qualification that it is a Managalam Pasuram) ;
another initial link : http://www.manoramic.com/ has assorted songs – including 53 : Arunan Indiran and yes, 61 : Bhuvaniyir.

The 4th link is a YouTube link to “Thondaradipodi Alwar's Pasuram - "Thirupalliyezhuchi" …” – does not provide text lyrics ; no comments below the video.

So, I am NOT confused – just trying to understand the classification system in a little better way.

And yes, these are just but a few links that I have mentioned out of the many many more links that I would have glanced through.

*******************

The “confusion” that you often refer to – is actually a curiosity, when the “sources” don't match exactly in their content, specially when one is trying to learn a new topic, and classify things for better understanding. The curiosities (confusions for you) are mainly because of these mismatches :

a) (B-3) : the typo of missing "n" in : tirunEDuntADakam wrt tirukkuruntAnDakam

b) (C-5) : the typo of wrong pAsuram No 15 in place of 16
I knew that TiruppAvai pAsuram #16 is "nAyakanAi ninRa" only after I had referred to atleast 2 websites. So, I had definitely done a fair bit of searching.

c) (C-3) : I was informed that a book by Giri Traders, Mylapore on Thiruppaavai by Vengrai V Parthasarathy contains 3 Taniyans.
Only when the no of Taniyans - 3 in the book vs 1 in the hindupedia site - did not match, did I raise the query.
And now, you are saying that there are only 2 Taniyans !
Surely, when time permits, I will dig deep, and find the details of the 3rd Taniyan given in that book. Let me add that as of now, I don't possess the book, nor have I seen it so far.

d) (C-4) : The hindupedia site does not mention "kOdai pirandvUr", whereas the ... SRU0051 site simply mentions this (Kothai) without any additional qualification that it is (like) a mangaLa pAsuram.
People who have read Tamil as a subject for some years in school may perhaps know this fact ?? ; but not general mass, who have only a base knowledge of the language / literature.

*******************

I still don't have a clear answer to my query :
(C-2) : For eg, what about Tirukkural ? Does it also come under the classification of a Prabhandam ?
You have just replied :
>> I know prabhandam is a type of poetry but I do not know the etymology. Please do a google search for tirukkuRaL.

Surely, sometime, I will find more info on :
- Tirukkural and
- what else constitutes “Prabhandams”

*******************

I would suggest to you that you do a google search before you come up with questions.

I have definitely searched a no of sites for Tiruppavai (TPs), and TiruVempavai (TVs) etc, and given 2 websites as examples of sites that I have referred.
Yes, a great lot of info is available in the Internet, but practically, for a certain topic, one cannot touch upon more than a handful of sites.

*******************

ksrimech,
I asked my doubts / queries only after you encouraged me to ask further …
[“>> If you tell me what else you want to know, I will be happy to answer. ”]

While I thank you for the info you have provided, it is entirely upto you if you wish to further provide inputs in this forum disc on this thread or not ; but the thread will indeed continue ...

...

[ksrimech]

Anyone who is not aware that there are 2 TYs - mANikkavAsagar's tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi vs toNDaraDippoDiyAzhvAr's tiruppaLLiyEzhucchi - is bound to be curious about any poem like “kaDi malar kamalangal”, which he has not found in any of the sites that he has so far referred to on this topic.
I wonder if people other than those who have read Tamil as a subject in the School for a few years (like say, upto 10th or upto 12th), would know facts like these ??

Sir, I have not study even that much. I used to learn tamizh as third language and hindi as second language. That too as third language, only from my 6th to 8th. I have done some self study to enjoy the pAsurams. Thats is all. Otherwise I'm also in the same boat. Also, I would suggest you go through the links of those two website I had provided and get familiarized with the AzhvArs' and nAyanmArs' works. For that matter, I did not know anything about the nAyanmArs' works until I had poked my nose in some thread here on the forum.

So, I am NOT confused – just trying to understand the classification system in a little better way.

I'm sorry for refering it to as confusion. I would refrain from using it again.

c) (C-3) : I was informed that a book by Giri Traders, Mylapore on Thiruppaavai by Vengrai V Parthasarathy contains 3 Taniyans.
Only when the no of Taniyans - 3 in the book vs 1 in the hindupedia site - did not match, did I raise the query.
And now, you are saying that there are only 2 Taniyans !
Surely, when time permits, I will dig deep, and find the details of the 3rd Taniyan given in that book. Let me add that as of now, I don't possess the book, nor have I seen it so far.

There are generally two taniyans sung/recited before reciting the tiruppAvai. I have pointed out the poets already. I think the book has given the tamizh taniyans as two instead of one. The first would be "annavayal pudivai ANDAL arangarkku" and the second would be "sUDikkODutta suDarkoDiyE tolpAvai". Some of us count it as one taniyan. So people count it as two. May be this is why you have 3 taniyans. I have not heard or learnt any other taniyans for tiruppAvai. You can check in the giri trading book and tell me and tell me.

d) (C-4) : The hindupedia site does not mention "kOdai pirandvUr", whereas the ... SRU0051 site simply mentions this (Kothai) without any additional qualification that it is (like) a mangaLa pAsuram.
People who have read Tamil as a subject for some years in school may perhaps know this fact ?? ; but not general mass, who have only a base knowledge of the language / literature.

Neither do I have that knowledge. I have listened to vELukkuDi kRSNan svAmi's tiruppAvai upanyAsam and he mentioned this then. I would also suggest you go by authentic website. In my frank opinion, SRU is not a good source for SrI vaiSNava texts. Please check the link I had given earlier. You may also try http://www.acharya.org.

Use the following google link to get more informations on nAlAyira divya prabhandam:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Nalayira ... Prabhandam

I still don't have a clear answer to my query :
(C-2) : For eg, what about Tirukkural ? Does it also come under the classification of a Prabhandam ?
You have just replied :
>> I know prabhandam is a type of poetry but I do not know the etymology. Please do a google search for tirukkuRaL.

Surely, sometime, I will find more info on :
- Tirukkural and
- what else constitutes “Prabhandams”

Sir, I have already pointed out I haven't learnt tamizh at all. So I would suggest you start a thread in the member's section about prabhandam and tirukkuRaL. You will get better responses. I'm sure arasi, cml and others have better knowledge than me in such topic.

While I thank you for the info you have provided, it is entirely upto you if you wish to further provide inputs in this forum disc on this thread or not ; but the thread will indeed continue ...

It was only a suggestion and I'm still happy to answer your queries based upon the limited knowledge I have. I suggested so because I just didn't want this to be a dialogue between you and I as I don't see others participating in it.

[Enna_Solven]

It was only a suggestion and I'm still happy to answer your queries based upon the limited knowledge I have. I suggested so because I just didn't want this to be a dialogue between you and I as I don't see others participating in it.

ksrimech,

Unfortunately, the discussions with original poster are one-way street. He wants exhaustive information from others in a format he prescribes and will not tolerate even the mildest contrary-opinion/word. I stopped discussions with him other than the occasional help with lyrics from Lakshman sir's CD and from my own collection.

As I said, I had decided not to get involved in going-nowhere discussions but it pains me to see him take you to task for your very excellent and patient replies. srkris has still problems with the website and he has not yet re-enabled the forum email; otherwise I would have just sent you this via email. Let me be bad person and take the rap from SK. I learn a lot from this forum and I have become more humble because of generous persons like you. Thanks.

Please see this thread for similar discussion.
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13130

[smala]

...Let me be bad person and take the rap from SK. I learn a lot from this forum and I have become more humble because of generous persons like you. ...

Krsimech and Enna Solven:

I too took a rap sometime ago for pointing out some facts : OP specializes in very tiresome insistent, one-way only type elongated post of questions within questions.

In return, Sri Lakshman has been exceedingly patient and giving - the OP managed to give a perfunctory thanks. It will be something like.."Thanks for yr replies " - coming from someone who can write a detailed list of formatted questions this "yr" seems to indicate a grudging thanks. To the reader on this public forum, it becomes tiresome since the answers do not seem to satisfy the OP unless couched in the very same language/format asked by the OP. The same questions get repeated ad infinitum, looping into given answers. Suggesting Google search facility does not seem to help even with sites pointed out.

A recent instance was that the OP missed the P (clearly stated by Sri Lakshman) for the janya and the OP then states that had Lakshman mentioned the important word janya, he would not have missed it! The OP's insistent need for every i to be dotted and t to be crossed, that every question be pinned to the answer in his style, reminds one of a bureaucrat's style of correspondence from the Babu Raj days.

[ksrimech]