Casual atttitude of the Podhigai channel.

[CRama]

It is a good gesture that of late Podhigai TV is giving more coverage for carnatic music. But yesterday I was shocked to see their casual attitude while recording the programmes. Yesterday,11 Oct at 9.00 to 9.30 PM there was a carnatic music programme containing Tamil songs by Rahul Narayanan, a very young musician who sang reasonably well. The list consisted of Balakrishnan pada malar, Enraikku siva kripai, Nadamadi thirintha, Mannu pugazh. The songs were rendered without raga alapana, swaram etc. But the shocking point was that there was no sruti- no tampura, sruti box or any such device. How such a music programme can be recorded. Is there no tampura or sruti box in the TV studio. This shows their very casual attitude.

[sureshvv]

Were there any accompanists? Usually artistes carry their own sruti box. Did not Rahul bring one?

[Rsachi]

So let me get this right- DD Chennai in semi prime time featured a Carnatic vocalist without a Sruti box or tambura or Radelesque contraption?

[Nick H]

This is, indeed, shocking --- but isn't it a breakthrough?

I think this man should get the new Nobel prize for music!

[Rsachi]

Nick,
But we shouldn't be so easily surprised. I have attended a few concerts in recent years where musicians perform with a backdrop picture of Thyagaraja holding aloft a tambura. It is more than a prop, it looks like he is putting tambura for the modern-day musician since there is no other tambura in sight!

[vasanthakokilam]

I think Nick may be thinking along the lines of what I am thinking.. We will see.

I understand CRama's point that when normally sruthi sound is there with any CM performance, not having it may be due to the fault of DD, if it was not consciously planned to be that way, for whatever reason. Having said that, let me use this occasion to ask about a thing I have been thinking about of late.

If the singer sang to perfect sruthi suddham without a sruthi box and conveyed the implicit Adhara Shadja (tonic) through the song itself, that is an achievement in itself, wouldn't it be? Now, it may be a bit odd to us rasikas who are used to the sruthi sound. I agree it will have a different total sound and texture which may not be palatable to our ears. But the sruthi sound, in addition to providing the comfortable and smoothing backdrop, also helps the rasikas in getting a grasp on the tonic which is needed for properly pegging the raga as opposed to its numerous sruthi shifted counter parts. But if the singer anchored on the sa adequately ( or if there was a violinist, as Suresh asked, they could provide that anchor as they do during sruthi bedam ), then in theory it should still sound OK raga wise. And once everyone has comfortably settled in on the Sa, we do not even need that reference constantly, the song will provide it with its various tensions and eventual resolutions to the Sadja.

I was wondering about this based on the western notions of the tonic. I took a western music appreciation course and there the official notion of a tonic ( or key ) is it is the tonal center of the piece.. That is a fuzzy and artistic definition. In various demonstrations, without any sruthi sounds, the teacher sang a little bit and stayed a little above the tonic and asked class to sing the tonic and everyone did that perfectly. He called that a natural ability of humans to resolve to the tonic. I was reminded of that occasion when I read this thread.

[Rsachi]

Dear VK,
Film music, where lots of instruments and voices perform together in sruti alignment , has also no tonic=sruti backdrop. But I believe that from nadaswaram, shehnai to everything else, both HM and CM use tambura/sruti for a reason, not as mere tradition/convention. I feel the entire musical experience, apart from the performer'a own output, varies in fundamental ways. In fact as a corollary, I feel a beautiful shift in mood when they shift to madhyama sruti for one or two light items towards the end. So my lay rasika ears do feel a big difference without that tambura in both HM and CM.

[kunthalavarali]

sureshvv,
K J Dileep was the Violinist, I don't remember the mrudangam artiste.

[sureshvv]

Can't believe all these people landed up at the studio without a sruti box. Reminds me of my electrician who asks me for my tester when he visits

[Rsachi]

There is a famous bhajan, sumiran karle mere mana.. The words go:

tu sumiran karle mere mana

kUp nIr bin, dhEnu kShIr bin dharti megh bina (well without water, cow without milk, earth without clouds)
jaise taruvar phal bina rain chand bina. (like a tree without fruit, night without the moon)
dEh nain bin mandir dIp bina panDit ved vihIna. (body/face without eyes, shrine without lamp, scholar without knowledge)
taise prani Hari naam bina. (so a man without the remembrance of God)

Maybe we should add 'gAyak tAnpura bIna'

[varsha]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd_wzMxk7j4
YOU FORGOT TO ADD THIS SONG :tmi:

[Nick H]

I think Nick may be thinking along the lines of what I am thinking.. We will see.

...

If the singer sang to perfect sruthi suddham without a sruthi box and conveyed the implicit Adhara Shadja (tonic) through the song itself, that is an achievement in itself, wouldn't it be? Now, it may be a bit odd to us rasikas who are used to the sruthi sound. I agree it will have a different total sound and texture which may not be palatable to our ears. But the sruthi sound, in addition to providing the comfortable and smoothing backdrop, also helps the rasikas in getting a grasp on the tonic which is needed for properly pegging the raga as opposed to its numerous sruthi shifted counter parts. But if the singer anchored on the sa adequately ( or if there was a violinist, as Suresh asked, they could provide that anchor as they do during sruthi bedam ), then in theory it should still sound OK raga wise. And once everyone has comfortably settled in on the Sa, we do not even need that reference constantly, the song will provide it with its various tensions and eventual resolutions to the Sadja.

Exactly. Of course my remark was a little tongue-in-cheek, because of course that sound is part of the music that we are used to hearing. Experimentally, it would be interesting to see how performers and audience get on with out it, and practically, it could often be turned down by half. Let me take a turn at crying tradition and ask when the tampura ever produced the high-volume drone that is often heard from the stage, sometimes drowning out softer elements of the music.

I was wondering about this based on the western notions of the tonic. I took a western music appreciation course and there the official notion of a tonic ( or key ) is it is the tonal center of the piece.. That is a fuzzy and artistic definition. In various demonstrations, without any sruthi sounds, the teacher sang a little bit and stayed a little above the tonic and asked class to sing the tonic and everyone did that perfectly. He called that a natural ability of humans to resolve to the tonic. I was reminded of that occasion when I read this thread.

I'm not sure about this, but maybe base might be a better word than centre?

There are 23 lectures on western (mostly classical) music here: Yale Lectures on Listening to Music. Theory-light, and appreciation-heavy, they are brilliant and entertaining. The concepts of tonic, dominant, subdominant and the basic chords are covered in the first few lectures, so those who do not need the subsequent overview of Western classical need not proceed further --- but it is so good that I plan to buy the professor's book! Tonic and dominant are none other than Sa and Pa, I think?

Rsachi, I wonder if Thyagaraja received the usual pittance for his playing in your photo!

[vasanthakokilam]

Nick, I have watched that course. Very entertaining indeed. That professor is the grand-daddy of western music appreciation book authors.
He also mentions about 'tonic' being the tonal center as well, in addition to demonstrating the innate nature of the tonic that is carried in the song that enables the students to automatically sing the tonic note as a way to achieve resolution. Also worth noting is,in the western notion of Key, he will point out while listening "look, the key has changed". To my ears, it sounded like 'Yes, there is a difference, there is a difference is texture and it has a very strong resemblance to what I heard before the key change". But the trick of the trade there is to change it while maintaining a familiar refrain and then deviating away from that. At least that is how it sounded to me.

When I was watching that, I did let my imagination wander about what a similar CM appreciation course will be like. I think it can be made and it can be quite wonderful too. It has to be done right and in a manner that does not look down up on the audience, not stodgy, with a sense of humor and lightness that appeals to all generations, especially the younger ones. I have definite ideas on how that can be structured ( shamelessly copying the professor's format - why not- but applied to CM ) but I have not yet picked the right musician/personality to present the course That is a tough one. ( this is all in my own mind, like how we talk about who will be a good actor to play a particular role ).

This is indeed a good topic in a separate thread.

I think such a course can be good for CM as well as an art form since an informed person can become an entrenched person in the ecosystem, providing long term value across multiple generations.

( P.S.: Music and iPad are good weight loss tools. How? I watched most of that course on the iPad while working out. It made me look forward to the work-out. It is that good )

[mahavishnu]

VK: here's a start. from TM Krishna, a DVD released on rasikatvam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHUmHxkkEsI

However, a more in-depth course on CM appreciation is still badly needed. More importantly, we need one that would combine western terminology so it can be shared more universally.

[Nick H]

VK, Great coincidence , You are the better student, and you remember better what the good prof said. Nice to share the pleasure of the experience with you though . It's always great t o watch a good teacher at work, and it is always great to see someone who loves their work and their subject and can infect others with that.

I look forward very much to your Carnatic version. Part of it should be its placing in the music of the world. Music is largely universal, and many of its techniques must surely compare with others from other cultures. The professor made rather a generalism of non-western music when he spoke of the comparatuve weakness of melody in western music. Not that it doesn't have beautiful tunes, of course it does, but it is fettered by the direct movement from one set frequency to another, neglecting what lies between.

[chalanata]

The discussion and all is ok. But is he (the singer without a sruti box and complying with sruti perfectly) not better than a seasoned singer singing with several intricate sruti boxes around and not conforming to sruti even a bit?

[uday_shankar]

If the singer sang to perfect sruthi suddham without a sruthi box and conveyed the implicit Adhara Shadja (tonic) through the song itself, that is an achievement in itself, wouldn't it be?

vk, This statement is wrong at many levels. I believe:

1. THE TAMBURA (OR ELECTRONIC BOX) IS NOT AT ALL FOR AADHARA "REFERENCE"

The notion that a seasoned Carnatic or Hindustani singer, who has been practising for years, often at the same shruti, needs an "aadhara" reference is laughable. Most professional, and even amateur singers can give an entire concert without a shruti reference. They may not LIKE to do so because they would like to FINE-TUNE their singing by constantly blending with a tambura (here I am getting ahead of myself).

2. REMEMBER, IF IT SOUNDS MELODIOUS AND RIGHT, IT IS 95% SHRUTI SHUDDAM, BUT REAL SHRUTI SHUDDHAM IS THE OTHER 5% AND IT CAN BE JUDGED ONLY IN THE PRESENCE OF A WELL-TUNED TAMBURA

Now we come to the real purpose of a tambura and the real meaning of shruti shuddham. For all intents and purposes, a "good" melodious voice can get it 95% right. This is the case with casual singing situations where singers with good voices sing a film song in a living room or with a karaoke or whatever. Yes, people with absolutely no musical background do get confused "where to start" sometimes but often once started they can continue with the rest of the melody reasonably well.

The business of shruti shuddham, on the other hand is a sadhana of constantly blending to a very high degree of perfection with a properly tuned tambura. So your statement, "if a singer sang to perfect shruti shuddam without a sruthi box and conveys implicit aadhara shruti" is extremely wrongly worded. The 95% shruti shuddham would convey the aadhara shruti within 10%. This happens all the time in film songs, western music, western classical music, etc.. On the other hand, "perfect shruti shuddam" is never an idea isolated from the presence of a tambura and can therefore never be "conveyed" without it.

Needless to say, the sadhana of shruti shuddham is pursued an order of magnitude more seriously in Hindustani music than Carnatic music. The most unfortunate situation in Carnatic music is the sloppiness of vina players in tuning up their instruments. In general I have found that the more strings an instrument has, more the care exercised in tuning it right! Santoors players (72 strings), chitravina players (21 strings), sitar players (about 21 strings) and sarod players (about 20 strings) tune to a high degree of perfection. I guess they have no choice because the alternative is total cacophony .

The discussion and all is ok. But is he (the singer without a sruti box and complying with sruti perfectly) not better than a seasoned singer singing with several intricate sruti boxes around and not conforming to sruti even a bit?

This is a good question. I have listened to the recording of many old masters well past their prime. Particularly some recordings Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar comes to mind. The saving grace in those recordings was the soothing presence of an audible tambura, tuned and played by an expert professional tambura artist who were around in those days. Without that tambura background, I could never listen to those Ariyakudi recordings. On the other hand, I have some Lalgudi Jayaraman recordings where there is no audible tambura (it would have been audible to the violinist but not in the recording). In this case there's a lone violin with absolultely no other sound playing a raga alapana. This sounds empty and "mottai" to me. We also see this sometimes on Indian TV with a Lalgudi sitting under a tree or a Kunnakudi on the beach playing a lone violin. This sounds too "mottai" to me. Listening to Indian Classical music needs a perfetly tuned, very audible tambura in the background to make the experience complete.

[Nick H]

Where much of the sound of an instrument comes from sympathetic vibrations of strings that are not actually touched, might not inaccurate tuning of those strings mean (assumning the correct frequencies are played on the melody string) leave them silent, and the instrument sounding thin and nothing like it should?

I don't have a very accurate ear for pitch. Maybe that is a blessing in disguise . But I remember one student concert in London where there seemed to have been no attempt to tune the veena talam strings, and the result was very unpleasant. I could not understand it, I had not heard such cacophony from a veena, even in the hands of a child, before, nor, thankfully, since.

(I shall be watching N Ravikiran in a couple of hours )

[vasanthakokilam]

Uday, thanks. Glad you jumped in, I was thinking of you while on this topic.

Alright, you took apart the straw-man part of my sentence and I agree with that. I take back that word 'perfect'.
And your comments are actually more in line with the topic of the thread than my tangential offshoot about the use of sruthi reference.

I think Nick, ( possibly ) you and I are in agreement with the succinct way chalanata phrased it and that was essentially the main point of the first theme of my response, barring the unfortunate use of the word 'perfect'.
And , as I also wrote, let us grant that CM/HM without the sruthi sound has a different texture which you characterized as Mottai. We are good.

What remains is the use of the sruthi sound as a reference. Let us deconstruct that notion carefully and without mingling scientific/rational/reductionist ideas and artistic hand-waving ( both have their place in this discussion ). Also please state if the purposes of the sruthi sound that you state are just your own personal view point on this topic ( or limited to a small group who show research interest in this ) or this is how it is commonly understood. That will also help the discussion.

I am not sure about professional singers starting right on the dot at the desired accuracy to Sa. Some may be gifted with such a talent but I see a lot of musicians syncing to the sruthi box at the start of the song. And, after some major kalpanaswara thunderstorm, I tend to think that when calm returns, having the reference in the background is a great way to be confident that you are back at your sruthi on a kArvai at the desired level of accuracy. ( see I am avoiding the word 'perfect' ).

The need for sruthi sound as a reference is especially true when they switch to Madhya(ma) sruthi.
So, you may be stretching the reality there by so categorically stating that the sruthi sound is immaterial to the professional singer
to maintain the tonic. And what you state seems to assume that most professional singers have the ability beyond the required and mandatory sense of relative pitch. ( granted, they do not need the sense of absolute pitch which seems to be relatively rare but they need more than the relative pitch since you are saying the reference on which the 'relative' is defined is not necessary. )

I have one question for which you are one of the right persons to comment on ( or one of the few who may even care to show interest ).

I mentioned about the use of the sruthi sound for the listener ( beyond the aesthetics it adds ). Say there is just the vocalist ( no tampura, no violinist, no mridangist etc. ). She sings a snippet of a song that I am not familiar with. It is in a raga that I know. What are the clues
in the song itself for the rasika to latch on to the raga? That is, what are the clues in the song itself that helps us disambiguate between that raga and (m)any of its sruthi shifted counter parts. Let us restrict it to the CM and HM contexts. Let us say the long kArvai at the end of the pallavi may provide that clue since that is typically done but that is really not part of the song technically.

[Nick H]

I am not sure about professional singers starting right on the dot at the desired accuracy to Sa. Some may be gifted with such a talent but I see a lot of musicians syncing to the sruthi box at the start of the song.

The main artist is not alone, there is at least a violin and a mridangam there, and, bewteen them they must agree to a tuning and prepare themselves and their instruments to sing from that tuning. In the movies, doesn't one of the string players in the jazz band sing out, "give us an 'A'!" In world without a sruthi box, and assuming no other artificial tuning aid, one of the musicians must provide Sa, and the others must adjust to it. Depending on the insruments involved, even in Western music it doesn't really matter that that A is 440hz, and the Sa, of course, could be anything.

So, my theory is that tuning, at least initial tuning, is a side issue. Yes, they use the sruti box, because it is there, but that is a side issue, and I am sure they would get by without it. However, the aesthetic of the music would change. Uday, and many others I suspect, would find it thin. Actually (here I go, throwing in a controversial word ) --- it would have lost the element of carnatic music that could be said to add harmony.

I'd like to see a series of concerts without the electronic box. Not because I really have anything against electronics, the tambura would have to be amplified, but because I'd be interested to experience tambura aesthetic rather than sruti-box aesthetic. For the experience.

[srikant1987]

Here's a big "AMEN" to your post, Uday!

Invigorating, that was!

[harimau]

Nick,
But we shouldn't be so easily surprised. I have attended a few concerts in recent years where musicians perform with a backdrop picture of Thyagaraja holding aloft a tambura. It is more than a prop, it looks like he is putting tambura for the modern-day musician since there is no other tambura in sight!

There is an electronic sruthi box near the left hand of Sri O S Thyagarajan. So, one could assume that a real tambura was not requested or needed by the musicians.