Sudha Raghunathan- "fusion" concert Toronto: Apr 28, 2013

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 29 Apr 2013, 07:24

Ouch. ;(

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 29 Apr 2013, 07:29

Care to explain Ramesh?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 29 Apr 2013, 07:42

It was a train wreck. The music was loud, gimmicky, cheap and flashy in all the wrong places. The styles that they were trying to fuse, did not blend very well.

The purpose of the concert (in addition to its fundraising goals) was to invite newcomers and young people to Carnatic music. They didn't have to do that at the cost of turning the regulars away

I am not a puritan/prude when it comes to these things. My tastes are quite broad. However, if there was ever an experiment in failed aesthetics, this was it.

Such a pity, given the number of talented people on that stage. More about the show here: http://www.morningraga.com/raaga-poster.pdf

So, in summary. Ouch. ;(

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 29 Apr 2013, 08:37

aha .. looks like the fusion ended up in confusion. Was the goal of attracting youth and newcomers to CM met?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Apr 2013, 09:49

...looks more like diffusion and from what Ramesh describes the fuse has burnt out

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Apr 2013, 10:15

>They didn't have to do that at the cost of turning the regulars away

Wait a second, I have a big decision to make for the coming weekend! BMK was today and I thought I was taking a risk but I drew some encouragement from Mahavishnu's recent comments and decided to go. That turned out to be a great decision. ( for those who remember a discussion in another thread: First song was nAdhathanum anisham! Even before the maestro started the song, I got some browny points by telling people around me that his split will not be the usual one! It pays to hang around here!! )

We were discussing with a few other regulars in the crowd about how the Sudha's fusion concert is going to be next weekend. One person said that she knew Sudha well and so I better not plant any negativity in her mind

Based on some comments I read here, I told her it seems to be well received in other cities. That was earlier in the evening. Ooch! I may still go.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 29 Apr 2013, 13:36

Lord mahavishnu announces to the world with his couch

where as our local mahavishnu just says ouch

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Apr 2013, 15:09

Guys remember where fusion was rated in our survey. Way down at the bottom.
I am yet to encounter a CM fusion that I liked, and I have been attending many ouch sorry such attempts.

BTW, I got the Sringaram audio CD. Lalgudi has wisely stuck to a 95-5 Carnatic blend. The 5% chicory is some western rhythm which adds deep noise but no depth. The tracks are memorable: mostly vocals - especially the two vocal tracks sung by BJ and SS (Sowmya) with almost no instrumental noises.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Apr 2013, 16:36

Ahh... the great confusion strikes again. I wouldn't have bothered to look at the thread, but for the fact that there was a respected artist's name there --- and I'm disappointed not to see happier news.

Fusion tends top be focussed on percussion. I can remember one such performance that I enjoyed enormously*, featuring mridangam, tabla, bass guitar and other percussion. The other-percussionist was Pete Locket, and he is trained in both mridangam and tabla as well as drums from other nations; his experience and musicality is enormous. In such an instance, there is actually no "fusion" because it is not needed: it is just musicians playing together.

At the risk of offending, it is my belief that some of the Indian musicians believe that because they can "compose," as in playing/singing improvised music, that they automatically have the necessary skills to compose and orchestrate for other instruments and other genres. But, often, they don't.

Mahavishnu, was there a section of the audience that did enjoy this performance? Regardless of our personal tastes, and even what I see as my more-objective view of the musical content/merit of such performances, perhaps this is an each-to-their-own situation.

*There is another, which will be well known to many members here, which is a recording of PSP playing jazz. This is just astonishing, as it completely breaks away from what I usually see in fusion, which is Indian percussionists basically doing their normal thing to a Western background. PSP does not do that: he plays jazz

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Apr 2013, 17:49

I can write a cheque for a million dollars for anyone who can give me a link to that video/audio of PSP!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Apr 2013, 18:03

Whoa! Pretty sure that I found it on this very forum. So you'd better split the money between me, the original poster, and skris. That's fine: 1/3rd million $ will do me nicely

I think it was on sound cloud. I'll do some searching. If it wasn't here, it would have come from T. Sankaran's student Curtis, so will be buried in my email somewhere.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Apr 2013, 18:31

Try this.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 29 Apr 2013, 18:33

I suppose a one-word review raises more questions than answers. So, let me clarify further.

I am not against fusion music at all; in fact my handle "mahavishnu" is actually derived from my love for the great John McLaughlin and the Mahavishnu orchestra from the 70s.

Till I heard them, the only raga based fusion I was exposed to was "Norwegian Wood" by the Beatles and "Within you without you"(loosely based on bahudari) and some of their lesser known pieces like "Inner Light" that only hardcore fans would know.

After having discovered electric fusion, almost by divine intervention, I happened to meet the people that were responsible for introducing John McLaughlin to Indian music, T. Viswanathan and Prof. S. Ramanathan, during my time in Connecticut (the latter very briefly though I have heard a lot about their interactions from Geetha Benett). I have spent numerous hours with Viswa, talking about the similarities between suddha dhanyasi and blues scales. In fact, I have heard Viswa play the blues without breaking his tradition in an impromptu performance he gave with Ramnad Raghavan.

Much of this inspiration can be seen in the music of Shakti; where tracks like "Get down and shruti" blend the carnatic idiom seamlessly with the beauty of the guitar work inspired by greats like Wes Montgomery. What L Shankar brings to this form of "fusion" is pure genius; truly inspired stuff. They can even get Muthiah Bhagavathar's Samayamidhe in Budhamanohari sound like jazz. I hold this as the benchmark of any Indian-Western amalgamation of sorts.

I have kept up with fusion of various kinds of the years. There is wonderful stuff including the classic Dave Brubeck with Pazhani Subramania Pillai (circa 1958), Ravi Shankar with Philip Glass/Jean-Pierre Ramphal, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan with Michael Brook, Nishat Khan with Gregorian chants, to modern electronic (mixed) music of people like DJ Cheb, who recorded an amazing album called "Krishna Leela" featuring tracks from Baby Sreeram, Akkarai Subhalakshmi and Trivandrum Balaji with Bill Laswell on bass. But all of this could be the subject of another thread.

So, where does Sudha's music fit in this spectrum? Nowhere. What we heard at Sudha's show was some diluted form of Carnatic music with loud drum and bass accompaniment. That said, the musicians she had on stage (Amit Heri and Keith Peters) are both extraordinary in terms of raw talent. When they extended their improvisation of strong Carnatic ragams like Nattai or Todi, they had no clue how to structure it. The end result was pure noise.

it is my belief that some of the Indian musicians believe that because they can "compose," as in playing/singing improvised music, that they automatically have the necessary skills to compose and orchestrate for other instruments and other genres. But, often, they don't.

Nick, I couldn't agree more. Composing for another genre is a specialized skill. Expecting to just shine in this genre, is like expecting to take a graduate course in Quantum optics with no background and expecting that the Professor will like your answers.

VK: Please go. You will be contributing to a charity etc. But in the words of Dante Allighieri: Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate (All hope abandon ye who enter here).

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 29 Apr 2013, 18:35

Nick, RSachi: A fuller link with more history.

http://www.tajmahalfoxtrot.com/?page_id=56

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Apr 2013, 18:47

Thanks, you generous folks.
I have seen this Brubeck PSP piece- link sent by a very resourceful friend some time back.
But when I saw Nick's post, I was a bit preoccupied complaining to my bank on some missing DD (and also 'where's my 1 M USD!!?'..type of questions) and so greatly appreciate your ready response.

I will once again listen to the audio.
many thanks...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Apr 2013, 19:08

mahavishnu wrote: Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate (All hope abandon ye who enter here).

Ramesh, IIRC, a variant of that quote welcomed us as we entered the dissection halls!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Apr 2013, 19:12

You may not think us so generous when you get our bills ]

Mahavishnu, thank you for that link. Having just heard the one, I won't listen to it now, but will store it away safely for another day

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 29 Apr 2013, 19:14

Ravi: how interesting. My freshman year physics professor wrote that on the blackboard on the first day of class.
I guess that it must have been primed to the surface from the deeper recesses of my memory when I wrote about taking a course in quantum optics!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Apr 2013, 19:28

Folks,
pAmbaNai thuyilbavar (one who reposes on the couch Adi SEshA) expanded that 'ouch' by painting a large canvas of what goes by the name Fusion (which makes me turn away and seek refuge in the nearest sabha, even without seeing who's performing there!).
And here's is an open-minded person about genres who listens to artistes whom I happened upon in my youth (The Beatles, for example). My son and others started recommending other musicians (how else would I have found McLaughlin without my offspring's guidance!).

Every year, I have tried attending a fusion concert, just for the sake of it--and how turned off I have been, most of the times! Even early this year, because two of my favorite musicians were part of it, I ventured out to be at such a concert, but couldn't stay till the end. A shame.

Perhaps this new genre can be simply called Confusion, so that the faint-of-heart can avoid attending such noisy happenings.

No turned up nose here, folks. Just that the music you hope to hear goes up the chimney and you have a house full of noise

May charities fill their coffers. I'm all for it. Still, good causes with less noises appeal to CM rasikAs in general, I think.

Mahavishnu,
Now I get how you got your moniker

The confluence concert (I call it that to distinguish such a one from the 'con' fusion concerts) I listened to via streaming was Ravikiran's Meloharmonic one at Cleveland this year--and I wasn't even there! If it made such an impact even via streaming, I can imagine what it was like for those who were actually there. This is what I would call what was originally meant by the term fusion. And to think, the participants were mainly little children! I have a feeling that they can tell a fusion concert from a confusion concert in a wink. Bless them!

VK,
No harm trying something new--a sign of being open-minded--and you are known for your innovations, but if Mahavishnu's impressions make an impression, you may stay at home and experiment on creating another new rAgA

There are going to be hundreds of others rushing to the hall and that's good for the charity!

Interactions among artistes of different genres is a welcome thing--so long as it's done with responsibility and with sensibility to make the best blend of both, without sacrificing their intrinsic qualities...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Apr 2013, 19:40

Mahavishnu, I'm listening to Dave Brubeck's Calcutta Blues from that same page: superb. More here.

Arasi, unless you know that they actual excel in the genre, it might be better not to watch your "favourite artists" doing it. Also, if they are your favoured ones, they probably know you, and are likely to ask what you thought ...and that can be embarrassing. It's one thing to tell them, "Well, I won't thank you, it's not my thing," when they invite you, but quite another to be honest about afterwards.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 29 Apr 2013, 20:26

I have been fortunate to discuss this topic with Dave Brubeck (who lived less than 20 miles from Weslyan & whose son Darius was a s.i.music student at weslyan u)
his FABULOUS DRUMMER MORELLI as well as the IMMORTAL PALANI. The FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE I sense based on my own PREJUDICED observations are:
1) The FUNDAMENTAL APPROACH of the above three artists was based on realizing& appreciating the strengths of various syestems of music & the ABILITY to IMPLEMENT things at a seriously HIGH LEVEL & and not just dwell on superficialities & DILUTING THINGS- what is usually called "DUMBING DOWN"
2) There was no attempt to PROVE ANYTHING.
3) The creativity level of the MAJOR artists in my opinion -a subjective view- was stratosphorically SUPERIOR.
I am ready for brickbats. VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Apr 2013, 20:35

No brickbats. Very astute observations. I particularly like No. 2.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Apr 2013, 21:14

Nick H wrote:Mahavishnu, I'm listening to Dave Brubeck's Calcutta Blues from that same page: superb. More here.

Good stuff. What is Morello playing? It seems to be something he is striking with his hand, the bass sounds pretty much like Kanjira, the high end sounds like a standing african drum. As Nick said, when it comes to Percussion, the fusion is so natural that the genres disappear. Listen to that 'Thani' section ( starting at around 5:40 ), it can as well be a snippet of a CM thani.

One thing about the Jazz rasika community that is quite strikingly different is, they are always in search of 'fusion'. We can say that fusion is their way of life. They seek that out so much in an outwardly manner and without reservation, Jazz without renewed sounds is considered dead Jazz. That is the reason you will find Jazz musicians always looking for collaboration with other generes. CM can fit within that mould well in some respects. Interestingly, there is something still in tact which gives us the feeling that it is still Jazz. It is an amazing thing that it can absorb and assimilate so many different things yet not lose its identity.

What Sri. VKV says about not having to prove anything is so right. When what you do naturally as part of one's musical thinking is to seek out new sounds and techniques and incorporate it, the question of proving anything does not arise. The musical aesthetics is the goal and a good artist knows instinctively when he/she has attained it. Such things can not be arrived at by summing the parts in an artificial fashion. That may be the problem with attempts at fusion which refuse to fuse together well and the resulting friction causes more heat and noise than light.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Apr 2013, 21:39

Very interesting observation about jazz, about which I know very little.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 29 Apr 2013, 22:01

VKV, That captures it more succinctly than I could have ever expressed. Like Nick, I don't see any brickbats coming your way for saying that. In fact, I think my major gripe with Sudha and party yesterday was that they dumbed the music down.

Vasanthakokilam: you are absolutely right about the ability of jazz to take in influences from everywhere. Brazilian music to Indonesian gamelan, and of course, CM.

Interestingly, there is something still intact which gives us the feeling that it is still Jazz. It is an amazing thing that it can absorb and assimilate so many different things yet not lose its identity.

And not only is that invariant maintained in the wake of change, there are several individuals (Miles Davis for e.g) who have re-invented their own playing several times over five decades. The term "fusion" itself has its origins in blending jazz with other forms of music, especially those with complex beat patterns and time signatures. People like McLaughlin, Allan Holdsworth and Larry Coryell excel at this.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Apr 2013, 23:31

Alan Holdsworth? Another favorite with us too! Haven't heard Larry Coryell.

Oh, another musician, Steve Topping, yet another Alan Holdsworth fan is a Rasikas.org member!

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 30 Apr 2013, 00:59

Arasi, we spoke of Holdsworth when we were trying to make sense of this other British guitarist's words that you had unearthed from the sleeve notes of a record. In fact, we discussed his words so much that this person actually made an appearance on our forum

Sadly, I have forgotten his name. [Post crossed yours, yes. Steve Topping]

Coryell is an excellent jazz guitarist. Less known compared to the McLaughlin-s and the Metheny-s of the world. A great album with him and L Subramaniam was produced by an artiste named Kavichandran Alexander, who used to live in Santa Barbara, CA.

Kavichandran is an absolutely brilliant man, who used to produce with a record company called Water Lily acoustics. Not sure of his whereabouts now.

He produced some amazing albums with Ravikiran, Taj Mahal and Viswamohan Bhatt (strongly recommended) that had a cover of the old Robert Johnson's blues.
The album cover is here:

Kavichandran also brought together Viji Krishnan (TNK's daughter), Poovalur Sriji with some folk musicians. He records his music (only acoustic, almost no amplification at all) in pristine venues like old cathedrals. The sleevenotes on these records were worthy of being in a history book themselves.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Apr 2013, 02:24

Wow! You amaze me with all this!
And I have neither the ability to go back to old posts nor have the 'for ever regenerating' brain cells that you folks possess. Thanks for stoking the fizzling out embers of memory in me!

But the aging brain cells in me do remember that we started this thread with SR's fusion concert!
I did hear the streaming of her proper concert from the Cleveland festival and really liked it.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Apr 2013, 03:02

Amazes me, too, with the breadth and depth of musical knowledge and understanding. Great!

Here's a musical interlude that I just stumbled across. Enjoy

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Apr 2013, 11:44

Good find Nick. Well played by the pakisthani orchestra!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Apr 2013, 13:00

It's a strange coincidence: I hadn't given Dave Brubeck a thought for months, then ended up listening to his music because of the PSP thing ...and then came this Pakistani performance. All in a day!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Apr 2013, 14:25

Just bought it!

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 30 Apr 2013, 16:29

mahavishnu wrote: The purpose of the concert (in addition to its fundraising goals) was to invite newcomers and young people to Carnatic music. They didn't have to do that at the cost of turning the regulars away

I think such programs do a big disservice to both sides. Newcomers who think they're listening to Carnatic music will never be able to figure out what it is.

Nick H wrote: Mahavishnu, was there a section of the audience that did enjoy this performance? Regardless of our personal tastes, and even what I see as my more-objective view of the musical content/merit of such performances, perhaps this is an each-to-their-own situation.

Whenever there was any sustained "episode" of playing, the audience applauded, regardless of what was played. It is hard to know what to make of it!

Nick H wrote: At the risk of offending, it is my belief that some of the Indian musicians believe that because they can "compose," as in playing/singing improvised music, that they automatically have the necessary skills to compose and orchestrate for other instruments and other genres. But, often, they don't.

In this case, I don't even think they were trying. They were following the carnatic style of each artist being left to express himself in turn! So sometime during the maathe varnam, you have a segment of random guitar playing. Or so it sounded to me ..

- Sreenadh

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 30 Apr 2013, 16:41

I've got this CD (mumtaz Mahal) too and I've probably listened to it once. Not really my cup of tea. I do like the music of Shakti, however. Recently, the work of Karaikudi Mani, Balasai and others with Western musicians is pretty good.

I agree with Nick and others in saying that Fusion is not easy to do well. You need to really take time too learn the various forms being 'fused' and also to practice together.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 30 Apr 2013, 17:58

I think such programs do a big disservice to both sides. Newcomers who think they're listening to Carnatic music will never be able to figure out what it is.

I agree totally with Sreenadh's assessment. I think this exercise achieves little. Although there were several hundred people that day and I'm sure their fundraising obligations were met. What was not clear to me is the relationship between what was presented and the movie with Shabana Azmi that many of these tracks came from. I believe the movie did well commercially.

Nick: That is a great track. I saw these Pakistani musicians featured on a blog sometime ago, when a friend sent me this along with another track called Rawalpindi blues. This was their take on the old Akashvani/AIR intro tune (in subhapantuvarali: G | R S d | R S d p d S d p|) that had been looped/orchestrated by the same folks.

RSachi: That was quick. I especially like the track called "Come on in my kitchen", it is an old song by Robert Johnson that has been covered by them. As Mohan notes, tastes are very subjective. I liked it as a very unique way of treating a classic blues song and not necessarily for the Indian music in it...

I will start a thread on "Album reviews" that lists several of my favourite non-traditional/fusion renditions (including classics like L Shankar playing bilahari with Frank Zappa) and we can continue this discussion there.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Apr 2013, 23:54

...with Frank Zappa?

Gosh. Obviously they were only in it for the money

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 01 May 2013, 01:56

Ha!

As promised, I've started a new thread on fusion recordings in "Album reviews". Let us continue our fascinating discussions on user recommendations on that thread. http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=21288

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 May 2013, 02:50

Nick H wrote:Obviously they were only in it for the money

Or, as Emma Thompson would have it, 'for the filthy lucre!!

Naanum.Puritan · Post by **Naanum.Puritan** » 01 May 2013, 08:06

To "Mahavishnu" & all his "bhakthas",
I was also at this Morning Raga concert in Toronto...

No offense but, I think that one person's opinion does not overrule what seemed to be the acceptance of 600+ people.
Nowhere did the organizers nor the performers mislead the audience to believe that this was to be pure carnatic music nor anything like a regular kutcheri.

The point of a fusion concert is that the artists are given the platform & freedom to express their creativity and music while continuing to maintain their own respective styles. Therefore, as a member of the audience, one is required to sit before them with an open mind. If you aren't of that mindset, it isn't mandatory that you attend such concerts. Furthermore, no one was forced to remain throughout the concert.

Finally, coming back to the audience and even the organization, BKM is known for its long history of support for great music and there are many, MANY puritans (myself included) as well as members of older generations that thoroughly enjoyed the concert.

So, while I do agree that it is "to each his own" , I also believe that the educated audience of Toronto and the ALL the other cities that received this show with open arms & standing ovations, could not ALL be mistaken.

On a side note, to criticize the artists & their performance motives is disrespectful and uncalled for.
Respect is something everyone deserves to receive & an individual's opinion should not get in the way of that .

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 May 2013, 09:06

Dear Toronto Puritan,
Hold on. We have two assessment points. Yours that it was highly enjoyable and 600 people gave a standing ovation. And Vishnu's saying: The music was loud, gimmicky, cheap and flashy in all the wrong places. The styles that they were trying to fuse, did not blend very well.

This thread shows we all respect our talented stars like Ravikiran and Sudha. We also invest time and effort to attend their concerts. And fusion concerts produce unpredictable impact and disappointment.
We'll have to live with that. Period.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 01 May 2013, 10:39

A few quick points in response to Puritan.

Was my review harsh? Yes, absolutely. A harsh review should not be confused with disrespect for artistes or their motives. In fact, I spoke about the talent on a number of occasions.

as a member of the audience, one is required to sit before them with an open mind. If you aren't of that mindset, it isn't mandatory that you attend such concerts.

Nowhere in any of the above posts is there a comment about mismatched expectations. It was very clear to this reviewer that it was a "fusion" concert. The comments were about the quality of the fusion and not about the genre. I did not go there expecting pure carnatic music and come away disappointed. I have made a case for why this was terrible fusion, as these things go. Some of us even described what the desired ingredients would be for there to be success in this realm. You seem to have missed this entirely.

On a side note, to criticize the artists & their performance motives is disrespectful and uncalled for.

OK, Srkris. Time to take down the whole site ]

Jest aside, I think it is important that the artistes get this feedback from the rasikas community and are not stuck in the bubble they are in where everyone praises the emperor's new clothes, and all they see are the indiscriminate standing ovations (there are too many of them in my opinion). The six hundred applauding people that you speak of, also clapped every time the music reached a critical point of loudness. I am unable to take the collective behaviour of this whimsical crowd (in this city or elsewhere) as a barometer of the quality of a musical performance.

Lastly, none of what I wrote has anything to do with the organizations that host these artistes or run these concerts. If an artiste has a poor showing at the music academy, it is not the academy's fault nor does it reflect on everyone that was in attendance. In fact, I am glad that this was able to generate revenue for the host organizations and charity. My only wish is that they were able to achieve the same goals with better music.

All the best to you and welcome to our forum.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 May 2013, 12:00

Mahavishnu has made all the points that I was thinking. Let me just respond a little more forcefully on one of them...

On a side note, to criticize the artists & their performance motives is disrespectful and uncalled for.
Respect is something everyone deserves to receive & an individual's opinion should not get in the way of that .

Rubbish!

Criticism and art go hand in hand. They always have, and they always will. Complain, if you like, about uninformed criticism (although I would say that everyone, informed or not, is entitled to have and express their opinion), but perhaps you don't recognise the experience and expertise of some of the contributors to this thread. Welcome and stick around: you will find their writing and reflections well worth it. I certainly have, for quite a few years.

Of course... you are entitled to criticise the criticism... Expect hearty and friendly debate

Actually, this thread has more positive content about fusion in general than is usual here!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 May 2013, 17:46

Rest of the offshoot discussion split off to this thread: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 48#p240848