Can we change anything in music of trinity?

[kvchellappa]

Sanjay Subrahmanyan
"There is no “must” in art, because art is free" - Kandinsky
(P.S. The title is my handiwork. Sanjay has nothing to do with it).

[shankarank]

Free pursuit of art is a must! Just so, we can create some resistance to it!

Ask him to define art first instead of quoting one liners. What is his view of art?

[Sivaramakrishnan]

May be not because 'art is free'
but
users 'exercise freedom'
and
justify 'there is no must'!

[Sachi_R]

What is my view of art?

Here you are. It is in the cloud, I made using some software. I hope this also counts...

[kvchellappa]

Does it not contradict this?
Sanjay Subrahmanyan
‏‘Art lives from constraints and dies from freedom’ - Leonardo Da Vinci

[kvchellappa]

RSachi,
My curiosity is whether we can do it to trinity!

[Sivaramakrishnan]

RSachi,
My curiosity is whether we can do it to trinity!

Agree.

[sureshvv]

CM is Art + literature + liturgy.

So the freedom has to be exercised very carefully.

[sureshvv]

Does it not contradict this?
Sanjay Subrahmanyan
‏‘Art lives from constraints and dies from freedom’ - Leonardo Da Vinci

No. Does Grammar impede your ability to write freely?

[SrinathK]

You want even more changes?

[srikant1987]

The other day, a Kannadiga friend of mine remarked how fiendishly complicated the grammar of old Kannada poetry is.

I don't remember how the conversation started and proceeded, but I observed that possibly the printing press led to prose literature becoming more common. When literature is orally transmitted, all the extra grammar helps preserve the contents accurately. This becomes unimportant for written literature.

Prose offers some solid advantages in that you can focus on the idea and the subject rather than the metre and the rhyme.

Of course, all of it doesn't translate directly for music. Music might serve as a medium to express emotions, but not so much for algebra.

In Carnatic music, we have rAgam, tAnam, swarams, neraval and compositions themselves, with decreasing amount of flexibility to the artiste.

[Sachi_R]

When literature is orally transmitted, all the extra grammar helps preserve the contents accurately

Absolutely! I confirm it is true very much for Samskrita!

[sankark]

When literature is orally transmitted, all the extra grammar helps preserve the contents accurately

Absolutely! I confirm it is true very much for Samskrita!

Rather than the grammar per se, I think the effect of the grammar is the important thing - a cadence/rhythm/aural effect that is created by the grammar; if you miss few syllables (acai or metremes) here and there the rhythm/cadence gets broken and it helps to keep the text true. Especially in works like thiruchchanda viruththam or thiruppugazh. I would aslo think the grammar followed the work; not the other way around.

Downside: a very clever linguist/expert can find new metremes to subvert the meaning while maitaining the cadence/rhythm.

As to kvcs question, yes we can. Though, we shouldn't.

[kvchellappa]

I just happened to read this from 2003 interview of Sanjay: ""The contribution of the Trinity to Carnatic music is so vast that one lifetime is not enough for anyone to learn all the songs that they composed. So I'm happy trying to learn rarely-sung compositions, improve on my rendition of them and try to achieve that perfection that all of us aim for in whichever profession we may be in."
I remember TMK saying in one MMU that what the trinity have done, no one else has done to CM though I do not know his current opinion.

[srikant1987]

Absolutely! I confirm it is true very much for Samskrita!

The Vedas were transmitted orally for centuries before they came to be written.

[RSR]

How about Purandaradasa, Annamacharya,Badrachalam Ramadasa who preceded the Trinity by a good three centuries? And even Purandaradasa was preceded by other Haridasas. Hype should be avoided.

[Ponbhairavi]

And oothukAttar whose contribution is in no way inferior to Any of them according to Maestro Ravi kiran, and who is ignored for reasons other than musical

[kvchellappa]

In my view the trinity burst forth contemporaneously and there was a renaissance of CM. They set to tune their compositions (vaggeyakkaras) and had a lineage of disciples. Though there were composers prior to the trinity (Tamizh moovar for example), the extant tunes are as set by later day musicians as I understand. Subsequent to trinity we have eminent vaggeyakkaras and all of them seem to have drawn inspiration from the trinity.
When a speaker praises a celebrity, usually superlatives are used. The next day another celebrity will be praised sky-high. That is the way of the world. Same Vyasa (accepting the common belief) praises different gods in different puranas. So we have a tradition!
Let us construct a hypothetical scenario.
All trinity songs are lost and no singer knows them. But there are singers who know the compositions of others in various languages. Will CM die or survive? Will it be far poorer if it survives?

[arasi]

Poorer, most certainly. But survive, it will.
I am interested in watching how this thread is going to go. Ironic--right on the heels of the other thread where a responsible vidushi's thoughts about a certain refrain--which to her seemed more suitable for an important work by one of the three composers came up. Too much ado for what we thought was mighty important in the scheme of things ensued.
Let's see how responsibly we rasikAs deal with this thought of: what if we lose the treasure trove of the CM trinity's compositions by some evil spell or whatever...

[sankark]

Poorer, most certainly. But survive, it will.
I am interested in watching how this thread is going to go. Ironic--right on the heels of the other thread where a responsible vidushi's thoughts about a certain refrain--which to her seemed more suitable for an important work by one of the three composers came up. Too much ado for what we thought was mighty important in the scheme of things ensued.
Let's see how responsibly we rasikAs deal with this thought of: what if we lose the treasure trove of the CM trinity's compositions by some evil spell or whatever...

We don't even **know** what treasures have been lost already - unknown unknown.

[sureshvv]

Too much ado for what we thought was mighty important in the scheme of things ensued.

How so? I thought good points were made (may be more forcefully than necessary) that convinced people about how they felt already

[sureshvv]

In my view the trinity burst forth contemporaneously and there was a renaissance of CM. They set to tune their compositions (vaggeyakkaras) and had a lineage of disciples. Though there were composers prior to the trinity (Tamizh moovar for example), the extant tunes are as set by later day musicians as I understand.

Among the things that the trinity did was to expand the horizons of the system - defining new ragas and increasing the scope of existing ragas through their compositions. It has not happened at that scale since.

[arasi]

Oh, good! Thanks for adding the smile All's well that ends well...
Amicable differences are fine. It's the irreconcilable ones which bother us all.
Also, long tirades are tiring, more so for those of us who are of a certain age

[shankarank]

Of course, all of it doesn't translate directly for music. Music might serve as a medium to express emotions, but not so much for algebra.

There are plenty of note-sequences that have been used to do arithmetic, as well as some algebra - if you consider a multi nADai , multi kArvai rhythmic pattern as algebra - like 3*x + 3 + 3*y + 3 + 3*z - where x =3, y=2, z=1.

Many rAgAs like karaharapriya are masquerading under some virtuous sequences ( if you say phrases - then with gamakas that don't shine) , that would be no where except for some kritis of rhythmic grandeur like pakkala nilapaDi, and cakkani rAjA.

A marriage nAdasvaram artiste in 80s would cringe and touch his stomach ( and say abba) if you asked him to play pakkala nilapaDi. You cannot do these without Alapana and Alapana will be incomplete without the song. A tODi kriti like rAju veTala can be sung without Alapana. Even bigger ones. Same goes for Bhairavi - a koluvai can be sung without Alapana. It is just NOT karaharapriya - it doesn't work for that. You need both.

It all boils down to what is defined as music. And that has nothing to do with what you consider as music - there are plenty that never react or take interest even when music surrounds them.

And there are plenty of 5 note, 4 note rAgAs where the grandeur is achieved purely by rhythmic setting. A Lec Dem by KBMK , Arun Prakash on pallavis at PS Swamy Sabha - Arun 's take was , rAgAs like Dharamavati will take any rhythmic force. Rather those rAgAs ( no! sequences rather) will live only by Rhythmic force.