Aryan invasion a myth?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Jun 2008, 19:30

A series of very interesting articles.

Archeological and historical data to refute the Aryan Invasion:

http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifa ... n-Invasion

Genetic proof to refute the Aryan Invasion:

http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifa ... ebate.html

[quote]We will not call it, of course, an â€œIndian invasionâ€

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 03 Jun 2008, 20:05

Just a cautionary note. NS Rajaram's views may or may not be accurate but they are hotly contested by much of mainstream scholarly opinion. Apparently he produced a seal of a horse from the IV Civilization (which is seen as a key link to disprove the invasion theory given that the Aryan is said to have introduce the animal to India). Some scholars have alleged that the seal is a fake. He has also claimed at some point to have deciphered the script. This has found very few serious takers.

The "invasion" theory now has many doubters even among mainstream historians but the possibility of a migration of a reasonable size from the north-west, friendly or otherwise" and possibly in phases, has support from scholars across the spectrum.

We probably need people like Rajaraman to challenge conventional wisdom but his methods/agenda attract more than a fair share of skeptics. In any case, AFAIK, any theory about IV/Aryans is not much more than an educated guess at present.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Jun 2008, 20:10

Vijay,

The genetic articles were what caught my eye, and they are certainly not 'tainted' by Rajaram, who I agree is a controversial figure to say the very least. But don't most anthropologists believe on the basis of cuurent beliefs that the movement of 'man' occured from Africa through parts of Asia to the rest of the world?

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 03 Jun 2008, 22:13

rshankar,

Thanks for the extremely interesting link.
I am attaching below a link which you may find informative.

http://www.indiaforum.org/india/hinduis ... page3.html

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Jun 2008, 22:36

Very interesting! Thanks for the link.

What is distressing is that all of these theories are just that - theories. There can be no proof to verify the correctness of one over the other. Such issues should remain in the context of academia, and help in the creation and maintenance of academic careers. Yet, people fight over this; it shapes politicians, and worse, politics; and reverberates in areas where it should not!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Jun 2008, 22:37

The genetic studies on the other hand are certainly way more convincing!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Jun 2008, 22:43

I thought that the Aryan Invasion theory was so discredited now that it was actually refered to as a 'myth'!

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 03 Jun 2008, 23:21

ravi: the indian genome database consortium has recently published their findings in the Journal of Genetics (pdf available from their site) - there is evidence for considerable admixture.. was a tad disappointed that there wasn't much by the way of "unique" susceptibility factors for mental health disorders or diabetes..

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Jun 2008, 04:39

vijay wrote:Just a cautionary note. NS Rajaram's views may or may not be accurate but they are hotly contested by much of mainstream scholarly opinion. Apparently he produced a seal of a horse from the IV Civilization (which is seen as a key link to disprove the invasion theory given that the Aryan is said to have introduce the animal to India). Some scholars have alleged that the seal is a fake. He has also claimed at some point to have deciphered the script. This has found very few serious takers.

The "invasion" theory now has many doubters even among mainstream historians but the possibility of a migration of a reasonable size from the north-west, friendly or otherwise" and possibly in phases, has support from scholars across the spectrum.

We probably need people like Rajaraman to challenge conventional wisdom but his methods/agenda attract more than a fair share of skeptics. In any case, AFAIK, any theory about IV/Aryans is not much more than an educated guess at present.

Although I agree that the "horse" incident caused lot of mudslinging on Rajaram, there is no need to see everything he does with tinted glasses.

The Sindhu-Saraswati civilization being the same as vedic civilization is gathering more acceptance now.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Jun 2008, 04:41

nick H wrote:I thought that the Aryan Invasion theory was so discredited now that it was actually refered to as a 'myth'!

Now that's why it has been packaged as the "Aryan migration" theory

-Ramakriya

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Jun 2008, 07:08

knandago2001 wrote:ravi: the indian genome database consortium has recently published their findings in the Journal of Genetics (pdf available from their site) - there is evidence for considerable admixture..

Nandagopal,

That is indeed interesting - would love to read that one. Can you post at least one of the authors?

knandago2001 wrote:was a tad disappointed that there wasn't much by the way of "unique" susceptibility factors for mental health disorders or diabetes..

I am not surprised by the lack of clearly identifiable susceptibility loci - IMO, these are such multifactorial diseases that nothing is going to leap out - it is probably 'small' contributions from each of these that result in the final phenotype (like the little drops of water that make the mighty ocean!). Additionally, I think these diseases do not have the same pathophysiology in Asians as they do in Caucasians or even the African Americans.

Ravi

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 Jun 2008, 08:24

While this is all very interesting .. how can we link it to a discussion on Indian music?

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 04 Jun 2008, 12:54

ravi: i've e-mailed the paper and supplementary data to you - please check.

mohan: The nature vs nurture debate does its rounds in music circles â€“ on occasion with rhetoric - â€œmusic runs in the blood.â€

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 04 Jun 2008, 12:54

Anyone knows what was the classical music style like among the Indus Valley people?

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 04 Jun 2008, 14:53

An interiew with Ahmad Hassan Dani
www.harappa.com/script/danitext.html

Rudra: supreme deity of dance, drama and music; Vedic music; Guru Shishya Parampara
http://www.itcsra.org/sra_hcm/sra_hcm_c ... indus.html

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 04 Jun 2008, 15:21

Cienu thanks. David Frawley also evokes strong reactions from a section of academia.

Ravi, I agree - nobody really known what happened with any degree of accuracy. It is sad and quite odd to see reseacrhers/historians peddling their own agendas, much of which has political backing of some sort, instead of trying to unravel one of the greatest mysteries of world history.

Ramakriya,
The Sindhu Saraswati equivalence is largely a product of satellite imagery that shows the mythical Saraswati river flowing underground, with a course that shows a remarkable degree of convergence with the excavated IV sites. it is of interest that in the Rig Veda, it is Saraswati that finds pride of place as Aryavarta's mightiest river while the Ganges hardly merits a couple of mentions. This proves, say the theory's backers, that the SAraswati/IV Civilization and the Aryan were one and the same. I don't remember all the counter-arguments against it but one of them is the lack of any symbolic reference to horses in the IV sites. Since the Aryan texts extensively refer to the animal, the absence of corresponding evidence in IV excavations is rather glaring. This is what led Rajaraman to "produce" a horse seal! Also early Vedic texts supposedly present the picture of to a bucolic/agrarian world far removed from the thriving urbanization of the IV sites.

Even if there was an "aryanization" of the sub-continent, migration is definitely has more acccpetance than "invasion". There is simply no evidence of an armed conflict of any significant scale among the IV ruins. The bones, in particular, suggest death from natural causes rather than warfare.

Rajarman deserves some credit for advancing some very radical arguments which has done a fair bit to rattle the scholarly consensus that was largely a product of colonial times/agendas. However I, for one, find that his writing reeks with a very suspicoiusly saffron flavour.

Anyway this is a controversial subject and I am no expert, so I will let it rest at that.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Jun 2008, 19:19

srkris,
Mainly nomadic-- sindhu bhairavi?? Or just bhairavi?
Besides, was there a funny bone in them as well as musical genes??

Mohan,
Bear with me...