doubt in rendering talam for tisram

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Mar 2009, 13:02

Vidya Raja wrote:While singing tisram, can the tala be rendered with each anga as thakita thakita

No... each akshira, not anga.

using hand beats ? is it any different from rendering the tala with each anga taking 3 / 6 counts , but without explicity showing the beats with the hand?

the tala is there whether it is shown with the hand (or anything else) or not.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Mar 2009, 15:20

Your terminology is still confusing me, but now I am seeing a possible different meaning to how I understood your first post.

Do you mean that, for each beat (akshira), putting the equivalent of rupaka clap-clap-nothing, so each clap and each finger count is a sort-of-mini rupaka?

I've seen it done, so I suppose it can.

Certainly I too have seen khanda nadai pallavis with the khanda pattern of kriyas shown on each count --- but these tend to be much slower, making the clear counting out of five pulses per beat a practical proposition.

Hope I am not continuing to misunderstand you

. Anyway, hopefully one of the experts will be along to help out!

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 03 Apr 2009, 17:29

What is an akshira and what is an anga.
Can someone please explain

Thanks !

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Apr 2009, 00:21

You might have seen the series of small language books with names like "Hindi Through English".

In the same way, my explanations are processed through an English brain. Not everyone here will agree with my definition of akshira as a beat, but I use it in the sense of four beats in a bar, three beats in a bar, eight beats in an Adi Talam avarthanam, three beats in Rupaka talam, five in Khanda chapu and so on.

In that sense: Akshira is a beat, or a 'count'

Anga is a part of a tala cycle. Laghu is an example, so are drutha, anadrutha.

Chatusra Jati Triputha (Adi) tala has three anagas: one lagu, of four beats as it is chatusra jati, and two druthams of two beats each.

There's plenty online about the theory of talam!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Apr 2009, 21:40

I just saw this link from another thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a32ofRcGPbI

This is one way to keep thalam for tisram: 2 sub-beats + 1 rest sub-beat for each main beat of the thalam.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 20 Apr 2009, 19:06

nick H wrote:Not everyone here will agree with my definition of akshira as a beat, but I use it in the sense of four beats in a bar, three beats in a bar, eight beats in an Adi Talam avarthanam, three beats in Rupaka talam, five in Khanda chapu and so on.

In that sense: Akshira is a beat, or a 'count'

I think this definition is incorrect, as your disclaimer acknowledges.

The Sanskrit meaning of Akshara is "Letter".

In a musical context, Akshara implies a time-instant. I recall you used the term "Pulse" in another thread. So Akshara equates to a pulse. Multiple Aksharas make a beat. Conversely, a beat is sub-divided into aksharas.

If an "akshara" is an atom, a "beat" is a molecule. Got the idea?

In Tisra Nadai, you have 3 Aksharas in a beat, 4 Aksharas make a beat in Chaturashra Nadai, 5 in Khanda and so on.

The total time consumed by the aksharas of two different beats is constant.
The total time consumed by the aksharas of two different beats in different nadais is also constant.

Some implications follow from the above:
1. There are more aksharas in a beat of a higher nadai than a lower one.
2. An akshara in a lower nadai is of a longer duration than one in a higher nadai.

However, within a beat, all aksharas are of equal duration.

I also think Akshara and Akshara Kaala mean the same thing; the word "Kaala", which means "time", is perhaps to reinforce the idea that akshara is a time-related concept of Taala.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Apr 2009, 22:12

That is very confusing, and, according to the little that I have learnt, also very wrong... but I have to admit that different teachers and different schools use the words according to different definitions, which leaves us all no alternative but to be confused, especially when those of us who have learnt different things try to communicate!

pulse... madra. The number of pulses in a beat, which is an akshara, is determined by the nadai.

The meaning of akshara as letters can be seen, in the expression of an avartanum as

||tha ka dhi mi | tha ka ju no || --- 8 letters; eight aksharas, eight beats.

The vocalists can substitute their swaras; still 8 letters; eight aksharas, eight beats, so long as we are keeping to first spead only.

Yes, it is time-related, but time is the currency of rhythm, so what is not time related? Especially in our music where tempo is not supposed to change with in the song, except according to the mathematical divisions of nadai, which changes the number of madras within the akshara, or multiplication of aksharas as in first-speed, second-speed etc.

You say I'm wrong; I say you are wrong, but, doubtless, we just learnt from different people who used the words in different ways.

Must poke my nose into a theory book or two...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Apr 2009, 23:06

This is the eternal confusion in CM terminology and one among many. ( Nick, don't bother too much with books, they confuse the issue more )

In discussions of this sort, I prefer to use beats and sub-beats.

Whether aksharas are beats and Mathrais are sub-beats or the other way, I have reconciled to not care.

Having said that, my own personal understanding is same as Nick's. ( Akshara is the beat and mathrai is the sub-beat ) But I absolutely do not know which is right or wrong,
which is more mainstream than the other.

So rephrasing the question of the original poster:

Do you show kriyas for each beat or do you show kriyas for each sub-beat?

One answer is: You show kriyas for the first two sub-beats of each beat ( as done by the kids in the above youtube link )
Second answer: Just treat it like any other adi thala and show the adi thala kriyas, one for each beat.

I have seen both but I think the first one is more common( though visually it looks too busy for my tastes )

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 21 Apr 2009, 00:35

I still think that akshara is not the same as a beat. But I should modify my earlier explanation a little.

I was thinking about this after my earlier post, and it occurred to me that there is a reason why the term "akshara" is used.

"Akshara", as I said, means "letter" in sanskrit. In musical terms, an akshara would be the equivalent of a letter - a swara or a drum-syllable.

They probably chose the word "akshara" as it is a very general term. To a singer it would mean "swara", and to a drummer it would mean a syllable.

It also doesn't seem logical to call a combination of swaras or syllables (ex. SRGM or tha ka dhi mi) an akshara.

I think Nick and I agree upto this point.

Tha-ka-dhi-mi | Tha-ka-ju-no || is indeed eight beats, as Nick says, BUT only in the first kaala, with one akshara per beat, and each akshara consisting of four matras.

In the second kaala, it is four beats - with 2 aksharas per beat and each akshara consisting of 2 matras.

In the third kaala, it is two beats - with 4 aksharas for each beat and each akshara spanning one matra.

So, akshara is a variable dependent upon kaala and is not the same as a beat.

Also, it is not the same as a time-instant as I mentioned earlier. Matra is time instant. An akshara can span one or more matras.

So how do we reconcile nadai into the equation? I'm too sleepy now. I will think of it tommorrow.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Apr 2009, 01:21

Girish, that all makes sense and I am sympathetic to your view on the literal meaning of the word Akshara. But no matter what we say here, that does not change how people use it commonly.

Having said that:

>So, akshara is a variable dependent upon kaala and is not the same as a beat.

You just added another dimension to the confusion

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Apr 2009, 02:51

Well, a quick look at karnataka Sangeeta Sastra by AS Panchapakesa Iyer, and (in rather more understandable English) TVG's mridangam book confirms (or at least agrees with) the relative definitions of matra and akshara that I was taught.

My interpretation of 'beat' in those terms remains my own; many define it in terms of the kriya that seems to be closed to 'beating', which makes, for example, both Adi Talam and Khanda chapu three-beat cycles, which, to me, is a nonsense. "Count" is perhaps a less ambiguous word.

The actual number of "words" per beat belongs to the concept of Kalai. This determines whether the adit-tala song we are performing has 8 words per count, 16, 32, etc.

The concept of Kaala attempts to assign an actual, fixed, measure of time to the elements of tala. It is based on that famous international standard the amount of time it takes to pierce 100 lotus petals with a sharp needle, which is approximated to the blink of an eye. That must be the sub-atomic particle of our conversation!

Laya indicates the speed, first speed, second speed, third speed.

I have always been confused by kalai and laya in this context --- but I think that kalai is a matter of composition, whereas laya is a mater of performance.

Phew....

I really do think that all this was specified by people who were a bit top-heavy in the intellectual department, but, I suppose that, in many ways, that really is the nature of carnatic rhythms!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Apr 2009, 03:31

>by people who were a bit top-heavy in the intellectual department,

And they have left the average layman rasikas way behind.

I have a rather unified view of kaLai, kAlam, naDai(gathi) but it is my own. From previous discussions on this topic, people do not really agree with me but atleast my model fits all the observed things together in a framework.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Apr 2009, 21:21

I do knot know enough at all to be confused or to confuse! All I ask is, why not keep akshara in the letter sense and deal with it strictly in that sense? The reason is, there is svarAksharA which just fits like a glove in that context. Why drag it into the rhythm section?

Nick,
Top-heavy intellectuals were experts in languages and synonyms and perhaps liked coining new expressions too:)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Apr 2009, 22:38

...and they loved dissection, classification and naming things!

But Akshira is not at all dragged into the rhythm sense, it is well established there. The first thing I noticed in my theory book, when I checked to make sure my memory cells had not become entirely twisted, was the different talas with lengths (number of counts) given in akshiras. If I check back to my mridangam-class notes, there are pages, from my guruji, of n-akshira thiermanams, n-akshira korvais. It is the word synonymous with beat (as I use it in English) or count --- except to those to whom it isn't.

It's all a bit like big-endians and little-endians, which, when I was small, was about which end of a boiled egg one broke open to eat it*, and is now to do with the order in which a computer stores bits to make a byte.

*Swift: Gulliver's Travels

devi · Post by **devi** » 22 Apr 2009, 22:47

Ha ha Nick! simply love reading your posts!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Apr 2009, 15:26

Thank you

!!!

<Blush>

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 12 Dec 2009, 00:50

Hi,

I have this doubt:

Tha-ka-dhi-mi | Tha-ka-ju-no || is indeed eight beats, as Nick says, BUT only in the first kaala, with one akshara per beat, and each akshara consisting of four matras.

In the second kaala, it is four beats - with 2 aksharas per beat and each akshara consisting of 2 matras.

In the third kaala, it is two beats - with 4 aksharas for each beat and each akshara spanning one matra.

Does that mean that the way in which we put the talam changes. For 1st speed it is 8 times
2nd speed - 4 times
and 3rd speed it is 2 times is it.

I thought the say in which we render the solkattu is what changes and the way we put the talam remains the same.

can anybody clarify pls. Hope i am able to convey properly

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Dec 2009, 01:16

I thought the say in which we render the solkattu is what changes and the way we put the talam remains the same.

That is correct.

I'm confused though, by some other things you say.

Look at it this way...

1st speed (1-kalai) say Ta Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Ju No once to one cycle
2nd speed (2-kalai) say Ta Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Ju No twice to one cycle
3rd speed (1-kalai) say Ta Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Ju No four times to one cycle

(Tisra: say it three/six times to one cycle)

Your hand should be keeping to same speed, your voice should be speeding up.

(there is something where this relationship is reversed. It generally comes in Ragam Talam, Palavi performance in concerts. I don't think it happens in dance, but cannot be sure)

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 12 Dec 2009, 06:55

Dear brother-member, laya2, You have conveyed your idea properly and our brother-member, nick H, also answered it properly but your interpretation of ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“matraÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ is incorrect. Even though all the modern works either skipped it off or mostly mis-interpreted it, as per Sangita Ratnakara, it is the duration taken to utter 5 short syllables i.e., ka-cha-ta-ta-pa which is almost equal to only one second and in which either 3-units or aksharas (Trisra) or 4-units or aksharas (Chaturashra) or 5-units or aksharas (Khanda) or 7-units or aksharas (Mishra) or 9-units or aksharas (Sankeerna) should be accommodated either elongating or shortening its dauration irrespective of the number of units accommocated. amsharma