Dr Balamurali Krishna's concert in Bengaluru Ganesha Utsava-

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 20 Sep 2008, 15:21

Whatever may be the outcome, this discussion has generated wonderful prose in english. one should walk miles to hear such a language. .thanks friends, who took part in this discussion. cm lover states"I could never get bored of vedic chants" Cmlover,Arasi.,I could never get bored of your eloquence... gobilalitha

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Sep 2008, 20:40

suresh
Take a musical phrase of length five (khaNDa jaathi). Using 3 svaras you could produce 243 combinations. Is that boring? Listen to the magical pattern that BMK weaves in a short span in that clip that I posted. Perhaps people leave during Tani because they get bored unable to appreciate the beauty of the repetitive patterns.
Doesn't nature itself weave this marvellous living world with just Four nucleotides (adenine(A), cytosine (C), guanine (G) and thymine (T) ? God himself did not get bored with that since he commands shriShTi, sthiti. laya again and again!

By the by you shoudl listen to Emani Sankara Sastri playing Veda in the vINA (no words at all) before commenting on the monotony of the Vedic Music !

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Sep 2008, 20:55

gobilalita,
pUvODu SErnda nArum maNam peRum (the string gets perfumed by the flowers it weaves into a strand--the company one keeps, elevates one as well)!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Sep 2008, 21:24

nAr illAmal pUvukku mathippu Ethu?
It is too bad we have lost our erudite 'Garland Maker'!

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 20 Sep 2008, 21:26

the aim of any form of music must be melody to ears..........in this context any innovation may have to be accepted........

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Sep 2008, 23:56

cmlover wrote:suresh
Take a musical phrase of length five (khaNDa jaathi). Using 3 svaras you could produce 243 combinations.

Doesn't nature itself weave this marvellous living world with just Four nucleotides (adenine(A), cytosine (C), guanine (G) and thymine (T) ? God himself did not get bored with that since he commands shriShTi, sthiti. laya again and again!

(Without getting into the merits or otherwise of BMK's 3 note raga ), the above two that CML mentions cover the basics on what makes a line of musical composition come alive in its various colors and variations.

1. If one pays close attention to compositions, repetitions of phrases are quite common but they do not sound repetitive because a small kArvai in one of the notes changes things sufficiently. That is basically a change in laya. That is equivalent to having a few extra Ts and Gs in an otherwise similar looking genetic code to change the information content of that sequence.

2. The thala and laya structure puts a limit on the 'gene length' for the swara variations within a composition but the composer can choose that 'gene length' to fit what the composer is creating.

3. A CM composition's laya structures can be vast within the context of a particular thalam. Meaning, within Adi thala consisting of 32 sub-beats, other than a few conventions of aligning stress points, there are hundreds, thousands or millions of different ways of arranging the notes in different laya patterns. As stated in item 1, on top of the melodic sequence, which itself is quite numerous, one can overlay the umpteen laya patterns and make the same swara sequence sound quite different.

Which one is aesthetically pleasing is dependent on three things ( paraphrasing Kant )

- The inherent beauty of the music
- The inherent tastes of the listener.
- The context in which the music is received by a particular listener ( sometimes it is appealing, othertimes it is not. and so forth )

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Sep 2008, 00:34

Long before Kant our ancients have made pithy statements:
ra~njatE iti rAgam That which pleases is a raga
lIyatE iti layam That which melts or melds in an orderly fashin is laya
sangItam bhAvAtmakam Music depends on the mood

Actually as VK suggests kArvai is an inherant part of all music and whatever be the svara selections and patterns kArvai is the cement that embellishes and holds together music very much like the '0' (zero) or the null set in mathematics!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Sep 2008, 04:07

CML, It is interesting to think about your correlating kArvai with zero. Yes, the conceptualization of zero by our ancients is quite profound and an intellectual leap in many ways and shows how good they were in abstract thinking and reasoning. The puzzle for many mathematicians around the world at that time is how do you model ( represent ) something big without making it big. That is, if what one is trying to repersent is 10 times bigger, the model should not become 10 times bigger. I am amazed at the crispness with which our ancients solved that problem by introducing zero. One can imagine a conference where the inventor presented his idea. Panel. "What is your solution about?". Presenter:Nothing. Panel: It has to be about something. Presenter: No, it is about nothing. Panel: Are you saying you solved our model bloatedness problem with nothing. Presenter: Yes.. It is about nothing....... Panel: Hmmmm... You may have something here

I understand your thinking on correlating zero with kArvai, in the sense, it introduces zero new notes but at the same time increasing the length of the music. Right on!!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 22 Sep 2008, 05:28

vasanthakokilam wrote:Which one is aesthetically pleasing is dependent on three things ( paraphrasing Kant )

- The inherent beauty of the music
- The inherent tastes of the listener.
- The context in which the music is received by a particular listener ( sometimes it is appealing, othertimes it is not. and so forth )

I would also add

- Quality of the musician who serves as the vehicle. For example, it is unlikely that MD had the impressive vocal capabilities of a BMK. So an MD composition sung by BMK may be far more pleasing than an MD composition sung by MD himself. Additionally, an excellent composition can be undone by an insensitive or poorly-trained musician, and vice versa a low-quality composition can be redeemed to some extent by excellent musicians. The latter point can lead to inflamed passions if discussed, so I will keep out of it this time !

As I mentioned earlier, I believe excellence can only be reliably measured in terms of sustained contributions, and cannot be judged based on one or two pieces of information.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 22 Sep 2008, 05:33

cmlover wrote:Fortunately the vast majority of us are not Trinity-bound-blind-folded and narrow-minded to eschew innovations and are Catholic in our tastes a much as is our Hindu Religion. That is enough for the present.

Excellent post.

I have decided to stay out of this thread as my views on "TNT" are probably more "explosive" than most!

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Sep 2008, 06:16

Just for the sake of 3 note experiment, I tried my hand with variations on the vedic chant. Here is the result of that. I tried to keep it to three notes S, N2 and R1 ( except for possible inadverdent fat finger. If you notice that please let me know ). I tried to create a temple aesthetic. It was recorded in a single shot ( with some clean up and post processing ), so it is all kalpanaswaram

http://www.esnips.com/doc/98098e11-551b ... sive128bit

http://boomp3.com/listen/c16f269la_d/mo ... sive128bit

(both links have the same content. Boomp3 does not seem to work for some people. I had better luck with Internet Explorer with streaming sites like ensips and boomp3 )

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Sep 2008, 07:14

Welcome SR!
Your rational inputs are always welcome but as you mentioned do make sure that you do not offend the finer sentiments of some Rasikas who have made-up their minds and are too sensitive

We can have an intelligent and intellectual discussion - one that will shed light but generate no heat

VK
It is fascinating to think about the role of 'shUnya' in philosophy and science and kArvai in the context of CM. Science is on the verge of answering the mystery of the Universe which is essentially empty, but for the mysterious God particle (Higgs Boson) which has been elusive till now! The whole scientific world is awaiting the results of the on-going expt at CERN. In our own philosophy which admits the OMkaara to be foundation of creation it is postulated that beyond the 'bindu' there is 'silence' which is the motive force for the Trinity represented by akaara, ukaara, makaara. That silence plays the role of the 'Higgs particle'. For example the subtle issue is explained in the amritabindupanishad (7):
svarENa sandhayEt yOgaM asvaraM bhAvayEt paraM |
asvarENa anubhAvena bhAvO vA abHAva iShyatE ||
( one should concentrate on (Omkaara) through the letters first and then meditate on it without regard to the letters. Finally on the realization of the non-syllabic form of OM the idea of the non-entity (brahmam) is attained as a tangible entity.)

In the musical milieu one may take the demonstration of Mali as a perfect example. More than 50% of his playing will be taken over by kArvai, but then they are so significant that the listener is able to perceive internally the fulfilling 'total musical experience'very much like the sigificant 'mounam' of Dakshinamurthy!

vaTa tarOr mUlE v^RiddhAH shiShyA gurur yuvA |
gurOstu maunam vyAkhyAnaM shiShyAstu chinna samShayAH ||

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Sep 2008, 07:28

Nice VK! Sound eerie! You should have modelled a wellknown suktam instead of kalpanasvaram since folks will be able to relate!
Why did you choose S, R1 and N2 ?
I guess R1 is the svarita; and do note that in vedic intonation it has an inherent gamakam and the udatta (I guess N2 in your case will have a distinct jaru).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Sep 2008, 08:04

Good job, VK! The 'eerie' sounds added liveliness to the piece. I was wondering if it would all end in a finale of a solemn OM SAnti SAnti Santi hi--in which case it would not have been an experiment, I suppose! A touch of Phillip Glass? May be not. But the fast bits brought to my mind some glass breaking sounds.
How about punctuating this with your flute playing? As a mix, like an ottu, (oTRu), whatever...

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 22 Sep 2008, 09:08

CM Lover wrote,
"

Look at what your friend 'fanatic' wrote which prompted me to respond:

coolkapali wrote:
CM Lover, I am sorry to say that you have completely missed the point. Anyways, seems most of the others have got it. So I will leave it at that.

Also dude, CM is neither an open book for anybody to scribble watever they want. Tat is why it is called Classical and not Lighty or Film. Do u understand why Mahathi Rag is very popular in the FILM field now????

He apparently is deluded at having a copyright on the CM Bible! Though he has every right to his personal views, I have the equal right to appreciate BMK's INNOVATIONS including his raga Mahati...

It is getting tiresome and let me call quits but just warn you that any indecent language will not be tolerated at this Forum.
"

Dear CML. I did not know adressing you a dude was indecent, nor did i know that calling somebody a fanatic is decent. I have been in this forum for quite some time and have never crossed the limits of decency. And for the first time, I am tempted to. So let me also warn you not to make unwarranted comments. Ur tone only indiacates that you were not able to take my observations about BMK's compositions in the right sense. MR FANATIC (am being decent ok), I have every right to make my comments. U need not take it personally. We are not here to subscribe to whatever any body else says. That completely destroys the spirit of the forum. Also just because somebody seems to agree with me on some point, he need not be my friend and vice versa. Come on all of us here are friends. And again, there is absolutely nothing personal about this entire discussion. We are all CM Lovers , not just you.

I will again repeat for the sake of everybody who is following this thread. I have NEVER EVER questioned the Vidwat of BMK. Mark this 100 times. NOR am i close minded. I am an ardent fan of Mali, Mandolinji, Kadriji, Seshu ( with his Shruthi Bedam etc), etc etc. THese guys have innovated quite a deal, but they have never tampered with the system. MR BMK IS DOING THAT. Tats my last word about this. AND MIND U IT IS AN OPINION.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 22 Sep 2008, 09:49

Yes, CML. That is the languge of Silence. 'mounttiRku mozhi uNDA enRAl, uNDu.'.

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 22 Sep 2008, 12:04

cmlover wrote:It is fascinating to think about the role of 'shUnya' in philosophy and science and kArvai in the context of CM. Science is on the verge of answering the mystery of the Universe which is essentially empty, but for the mysterious God particle (Higgs Boson) which has been elusive till now! The whole scientific world is awaiting the results of the on-going expt at CERN. In our own philosophy which admits the OMkaara to be foundation of creation it is postulated that beyond the 'bindu' there is 'silence' which is the motive force for the Trinity represented by akaara, ukaara, makaara. That silence plays the role of the 'Higgs particle'. For example the subtle issue is explained in the amritabindupanishad (7):
svarENa sandhayEt yOgaM asvaraM bhAvayEt paraM |
asvarENa anubhAvena bhAvO vA abHAva iShyatE ||
( one should concentrate on (Omkaara) through the letters first and then meditate on it without regard to the letters. Finally on the realization of the non-syllabic form of OM the idea of the non-entity (brahmam) is attained as a tangible entity.)

In the musical milieu one may take the demonstration of Mali as a perfect example. More than 50% of his playing will be taken over by kArvai, but then they are so significant that the listener is able to perceive internally the fulfilling 'total musical experience'very much like the sigificant 'mounam' of Dakshinamurthy!

vaTa tarOr mUlE v^RiddhAH shiShyA gurur yuvA |
gurOstu maunam vyAkhyAnaM shiShyAstu chinna samShayAH ||

CML- Excellent! I lookforward to these type of discussions. This post in particular is very interesting. You have correlated so many concepts in one post- shUnyam, empty set,kArvai,Om kara, Maali's music and finally to the silence of Dakshinamurthy. Kudos to your postings!!!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Sep 2008, 17:37

My dear coolkapali

Let me assure you first that I have no bitter feelings towards you. It is unbecoming of me to have reacted to your language (note, I fully respect your opinions, not that I agree with them!). After all what is the use of all the philosophy that I read and digest as well as the divine CM that I enjoy if I cannot take in a criticism or two even if it were couched in a language that outwardly was provoking! Reminded me of the incident narrated by Sambamoorthy on Thyagaraja's life. Once while the saint was keeping a watch on savouries laid out in the sun for drying, a neighbour's playful kid in pursuit of his game walked all over them. The angered Thyagaraja caught up with him and thrashed him for being reckless. Later he felt very sorry for losing his 'cool' and blamed himself for his mercurial temperament. Perhaps he did recollect the pranks of Rama as a child pelting the Kubja with clay balls which led to her simmering anger leading to seeking revenge later (which Kamban so eleganly states as paNDai nAL uNDai uNDathanai unninAL ) which formed the 'seed' of the whole Ramayana episode!

As much as I was going through a depression cycle you gave me an electric shock which set me thinking on a number of philosophical and musical issues even to the extent of our friend VK attempting to capture the melody of vedas in three notes

It has lead me to meditate on the beauty of CM with no notes in tune with the dictum:
Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard are sweeter." -
-- John Keats

Thank you and my apologies for labelling you a 'fanatic'. After all aren't we all fanatic about our love for CM

Good day!

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 22 Sep 2008, 18:03

SIR CM LOVER,

I am really sorry if i have offended you in any way. If calling you a "dude" is not desired by u, I will never use tat wrd with u again. Its out of habit, I use it in every other sentence during the day.

BUT HATS OFF SIR. It takes a huge heart to patch things up. That's the spirit. Have learnt a lesson from you. Anyways, I am also looking fwd to a lot of discussions amongst the forum members in the future and am sure all of us will respect each other's sentiments.

Way to go folks. (Sir tat does'nt include you, u r always the respected Sir CM Lover

)

Musique4ever · Post by **Musique4ever** » 22 Sep 2008, 22:11

And they lived happily ever after

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Sep 2008, 22:17

Like Serena and Venus

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 23 Sep 2008, 13:27

"All is well that ends well"

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 23 Sep 2008, 15:39

It looks as though, this is "THE END FOR THIS THREAD".

Thanks one and all for lively discussions.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Sep 2008, 21:17

You are Cool, KapAli!

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 24 Sep 2008, 13:40

Thanks Arasi.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Sep 2008, 21:13

I posted the three note piece in the context of the discussion of what we can do with three notes. The main point I want to make there is, that the laya which binds the notes together provides for all the variations we hear. This is true of other three note experiments as well. I do not mean to re-start the debate about whether it is classical or not, just pointing out that 3 notes may sound too small a number but the laya makes up for it.

BTW, a technical point on what I used to make that piece. The iPhone and iPod touch now have music applications. One of them is a virtual piano and you can play it with touching the keys. It is quite nice and even a child can create brigha like effects like a professional just by sliding the fingers over the keys

Seriously, I think such "toys" will be great to give to a child and some of them will get hooked on to the music that is produced as they touch the screen. In my limited playing around, a child can reliably produce karaharapriya raga bhava with such sliding of fingers over the key board ( after setting it so that all white keys produce karaharapriya swaras ). That seems to be because karaharapriya seems to have both a scalar personality as well as a gamaka oriented personality.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Sep 2008, 22:36

Thanks VK
if there is more interest in 3 note-svaras as well as technicalities we should dicuss them in a separate thread under the Technical section and leave BMK here with the 'mangaLaM' declared!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 25 Sep 2008, 00:05

'mangaLam pADI', discussion on 'mangalampaill' can be finished

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 25 Sep 2008, 07:43

Incidentally, THERE IS AN EXCELLENT MANGALAM SUNG/COMPOSED by BMK on Lord Venketeshwara...........this is sung in the same tune as his traditional Bhdrachala Ramadasa's "rAmachandrAya janaka rAjajA manoharAya". Can rasikas provide link to this song..............and thre by this thread can be formally closed ??

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 25 Sep 2008, 13:00

vasanthakokilam wrote:Just for the sake of 3 note experiment, I tried my hand with variations on the vedic chant. Here is the result of that. I tried to keep it to three notes S, N2 and R1 ( except for possible inadverdent fat finger. If you notice that please let me know ). I tried to create a temple aesthetic. It was recorded in a single shot ( with some clean up and post processing ), so it is all kalpanaswaram

http://www.esnips.com/doc/98098e11-551b ... sive128bit

http://boomp3.com/listen/c16f269la_d/mo ... sive128bit

(both links have the same content. Boomp3 does not seem to work for some people. I had better luck with Internet Explorer with streaming sites like ensips and boomp3 )

What you have played essentially is the three notes (s r and n) out of Revathi raga.
(Revathi being s r m p n) . and tantamounts to half the raga. This is what Mr Coolkarni perhaps
meant in his earliest post (...a raga half explored ) and questioned what innovation is this?
Seems justified !!!

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 25 Sep 2008, 15:36

Purist, that is exactly what I meant. However u can call me Cool Kapali and not Cool Karni.

nsbhushan · Post by **nsbhushan** » 25 Sep 2008, 17:44

Purist wrote:What you have played essentially is the three notes (s r and n) out of Revathi raga.
(Revathi being s r m p n) . and tantamounts to half the raga. This is what Mr Coolkarni perhaps
meant in his earliest post (...a raga half explored ) and questioned what innovation is this?
Seems justified !!!

With this logic, Hamsadhwani is half of Shankarabharana, Hindolam is half of Natabhairavi and so on...

Musique4ever · Post by **Musique4ever** » 25 Sep 2008, 20:32

These people, believe it or not, have done a jugalbandi with Rig and Yajur Vedas ! I am too ignorant to comment
on the performance myself. Perhaps our dear CM Lover Sir may have something to say ?
http://ghanapati.com/

Musique4ever · Post by **Musique4ever** » 25 Sep 2008, 20:35

Manjunath Ji, here's Sir's Mangalam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu6IJwAN_Ac

You can use it when this thread eventually does wind up

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 25 Sep 2008, 21:20

Prince ji - THANKS.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Sep 2008, 22:11

Purist, coolkapali: I do not dispute the points you make. My motivation is orthogonal to that. The question raised was along the lines of 'is three too small a number to afford for variety' ( atleast that is how I choose to interpret one dimension to this discussion ). There was also a statement that if you take the words out of the vedas, the music itself will sound repetitive. That may be so but that does not imply that three notes can only produce repetitive music. I wanted to wrap all these thoughts that are pointing in various directions in to a coherent stream and state that laya is the binding factor that affords tremendous variability to three notes.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Sep 2008, 23:11

Thanks Varmaji for that Mangalam as well as the nice reference to vedic juglabandi.
At the first blush it was interesting to hear an impeccable vedic accent from a Financial-expert-turned-vedic scholar. The synchrony is quite remarkable but is traditional as we usually observe when we invite 12 paNdita to chant rudram/camakam for the rudraEkAdashini. Interestingly I noticed him using S R2 G2 as the three notes which are the notes occurring in Kharaharapriya. Rightly we have been told that the Vedas form the foundation of this raga! During Ghana pATHaM he also uses the pancamam effectively which gives a pleasant musical ring to the recitation. The sAma gaanam of course uses more notes of kharaharapriya.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Sep 2008, 23:53

CML, I think what matters with vedic chants are the two intervals rather than swarasthanas themselves (based on a concept of Adhara Shadjam). The two intervals involved are '1 whole tone' and ' 1 semi tone'. So whether we call them S R2 G or N2 S R1, it does not matter a lot. But if one instinctively interprets a karvai of the middle note of the two intervals as SA, then yes, we can make distinctions of that sort and assign raga names to them. Not withstanding the fact there is sometimes a tampura sound in the background with some vedic chant recordings, if we can rely on what is written about vedic time musical origins, during Vedic times, they were concerned only with those two intervals and not Aadhara shadja/swarasthanas/ragas.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Sep 2008, 00:58

I suppose you mean N2 S' R1' .... since the order matters.
Is there any intrinsic reason for choosing the whole tone and a semi tone? (I mean not another whole?)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Sep 2008, 03:25

CML, yes for the sequence N2 S' R1' ( or the lower octave ). I do not know the intrinsic reason. I have been under the impression that those are the two intervals traditionally used for vedic chants and mentioned thus in ancient texts. My info is hearsay.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Sep 2008, 19:51

VK
just listen to the following Gregorian Chant
http://rapidshare.com/files/148568918/g ... 2.mp3.html
I note that it is S R2 G2 P mostly and a final sortie into D2.
The singer primarily dwells on the panchamam and has a glide into gandharam and rishabham and occasionaly descending to shadjam. In spite of the notes I could not hear mohanam due to the absence of the characteristic gamakams. But note that this is made of whole tones only unlike the semitone in the vedas. Vedic chants predate Gregorian by several thousand years. Also note that the notes are softer in the Gregorian compared to our vedas and there is a general lack of laya !

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Sep 2008, 09:17

CML, I hear it that way also. It felt like Mohanam as the piece was ending.

May be Martin can shed some light on this chant.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Sep 2008, 09:41

A solo would be niice. I heard some several years ago--Aruna Sairam and the singer gave a performance, taking turns. She also sang a kalyANi, I think. The solo of a chant was soothing and sweet. The instrumental kind works in lulling a baby to sleep!