Focus on song lists: Useful or detrimental

kedharam · Post by **kedharam** » 02 Oct 2008, 02:10

In my earlier days, I remember going for all MLV concerts, waiting to hear her sing â€œpazhani ninra paraman thandha pazhamadhaana dheyvamaeâ€

sirsub11 · Post by **sirsub11** » 02 Oct 2008, 10:53

Since a couple of forumites have expressed their views on songlists, just thought you would be interested to know that Sanjay has also started a thread on this subject in his blog, with several people responding with much vigour. My own take on this subject tends to veer towards providing an impressionistic sketch of a concert, highlighting what strikes me truly as the highlights. But hey, each to his or her own. In forums such as these, a detailed songlist does no harm and the keen followers can pore over every little detail. It's just that sometimes you can miss the wood for the trees. When I come out of a satisfying concert, generally one or two peak points of the performance keep ringing in my ears, and that's what stays in my head.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Oct 2008, 21:14

Sirsub,
Point taken.
However, the one or two peak points you mention which keeps ringing in our ears get translated a bit to those who were not at the concert and helps them when there is a list.
It is like this: you are in a new city. The first thing you do is go to the nearest shop and buy a map. You keep it with you, refer to it as you take a turn to reach the museum or whatever and to check your progress. As you get familiar with the area, you leave the map behind. I am not thinking of those who get absorbed in the map and do not see the landmarks in the city staring right in front of them--the lists only rasikAs, perhaps?

Now to Sanjay's blog. Thanks for letting me know...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Oct 2008, 21:27

Had a peek at Sanjay's blog.
Vijay has said it and I go along with it.
Look at the value of the list from the point of view of the performers too--one post there speaks of how lists help him while he/she buys CDs.
As for old listeners like me, a list is a 'memory jogger' too...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 02 Oct 2008, 21:34

I too agree that song-list is at best vicarious satisfaction for not being able to attend a concert. A report or a "review" can provide some more insights but as Kedharam observes, a concert is finally what the artiste(s) and every individual rasika makes of it. Sometimes there is a sort of a consensus on how it went but even here it is a generalization. I have, at times, not particularly enjoyed concerts that I thought were quite competent! As VK would probably attest, the single biggest factor is probably the rasika's own frame of mind.

Taking Kedharam's example, I probably wouldn't have made too much of the sahithya blunder - for one, my knowledge of Tamizh is woefully inadequate and for another, SAhithya has no more than a peripheral relevance in my appreciation of Indian classical music. Besides, I would have typically have switched off after the main piece/RTP. Net, net if the preceding content were musically rich, I would be inclined to dismiss any comment on the rest as a quibble.

The point is we look for different things in a concert as rasikas, of which a song-list is just one. If I were to put a number on the impact of a songlist seen on the net, on how I would actually enjoy the concert, my limit would be 10%.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 02 Oct 2008, 21:44

There is a sloka in Sanskrit-
Kanya varayate roopam, mata vittam, pita shruti,
bandhavaha kulam ichanti, mishtanam itare janah"
It says what the expectations of various people in a marriage are-
the girls looks for a handsome groom, the mother of the girl looks for the a wealthy son in law while the girl's father looks for an educated person with a good social standing ,as a son in law; the family of the bride(meaning the extended family) looks for a good lineage-kulam- and the various invitees(friends) look for good food!
The same goes for a cutcheri too I think; each goes with some expectation/anticipation and if that is is satisfied, each one one is happy.

kedharam · Post by **kedharam** » 03 Oct 2008, 01:49

Let me present a different scenario: Sanjayâ€™s Kovil kutcheri at Warren Road Pillaiyar temple, Chennai, 31st August 2008, 8:30 PM to 11 PM - A quintessential representation of the spirit of Chennai: little kids running around with some keeping tAlam, mosquitoes having a ball on a sultry day, the subtle fragrance of homam, incense and camphor fumes wafting around in the air, cacophony of car horns, my small intestines rumbling due to lack of food and water (I went there way too early thinking the concert will start at 5 PM) - celebrating the confluence of bhakthi (VinAyaka Chaturthi), vishranthi, (Late evening concert) and music not in its purest form! The concert started at 8.30. It was a pleasure listening to the team bring out the resplendent beauty of Bairavi and Kambhoji. I got lost in ArunAchala kaviâ€™s Yaaro ivar yaaro with N at Chandra bimba mukha malarale and Kavikunjara bharatiâ€™s (Azhagar Kuravanji) Ivan yArO - describing the beauty and divinity of Vishnu. In that Euphoria of being in the enchanting woods, I didnâ€™t bother to remember any tree or â€œsong listâ€

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Oct 2008, 02:01

Taking Kedharam's example, I probably wouldn't have made too much of the sahithya blunder

Vijay, your point is well taken. I want to point out that in Kedharam's example, it was not a sahitya blunder but a deliberate play with words which elicited some laughs from the audience. Those who can not read the tamil script would not get the context. Kedharam, you probably should transliterate and also translate for everyone's benefit. Thanks.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Oct 2008, 02:41

Yes, kedharam, the ambiance adds so much to a concert, no denying that.
If we keep the discussion going for a while, we may soon find ourselves being called either 'list-people' or 'non-list people'! It is not as clear cut as black and white with us rasikAs. In general, we all see the difference between the woods and the trees, of course.
To be list-obsessed is as bad as wanting to do away with them. I think most of us do not belong to either such unrealistic factions.
The relevant point here is that the song list sometimes raises a question about a particular song and takes it away from the topic of the content of the concert--which is what we have to consider--perhaps even have a separate section--Questions and Corrections on Song Lists where we can quote the concert and ask the questions, make corrections?. This might keep the concert related exchanges intact. For example: the composer is, the words are, etc-- and the reviewer can go to this thread and correct this in the review he has written. This way, the saree so-and-so wore (part of the ambiance!) does not have to lead to--you can buy it at such and such a shop, on to the same saree costing less in kanchipuram, etc!
I hope the administrator gives this a thought: that we have a separate section for list questions. Does this give lists importance? No! In order to keep the concert experience intact, I should think.
As we have our own personal amalgam of experience as we hear music, we also have certain notions and guidelines which are our own when we listen to it , and then in exchanging thoughts about it.
I can only speak for myself. As a person who in my earlier days in the forum thought that there was too much of an emphasis on a song list, I gradually changed my mind when I realized that I could benefit by going through lists.
When you return home after attending a wedding, you are greeted with the questions; how was the wedding? Was it a good meal? What was on the menu? With a concert, you are asked: how was the concert? What all did she/he sing? any RTP? What were the tukkaDAs?
Yes, we can stream-line the reviews by taking list related questions away to another (sub?) section. After all, we have very good reviewers here and we do want to zero in on what they have to say, and of course, go through their lists too

The moderators too can give this a thought. Ah, the once popular expression comes in handy here: the 'dilution' of reviews

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Oct 2008, 19:52

Well, 'list' less people are getting listless, and just as I expected, it has come to this that two kinds of people have been created--those who 'love' lists and those who go for the nuances

Let me leave all the music and go live with my lists now

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 03 Oct 2008, 20:03

So, some are 'LISTED MEMBERS' ' and some are 'UNLISTED MEMBERS'
I am both !

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Oct 2008, 20:15

So long as we are not 'enlisted'! Too old for that anyway

kedharam · Post by **kedharam** » 04 Oct 2008, 00:28

Punarvasu said, "So, some are LISTED MEMBERS and some are UNLISTED MEMBERS".
I am both.
The "Listed member" in me will remember his Chicago concert this way: Sanjay bring out the endearing sprightly gait of "Paramukham" (GNB'S sAhithyam in KAnadA) and his display of MDR's command in literature, bakthi, and music through "ThyAgarAja Gurum AshrayE" in KEdhAram.
The "Unlisted member" in me will remember the long six hour trek to Balaji temple against all odds (due to hurricane the interstates were closed and all side roads were fooded with water), the brawl between Sanjay and the rAgam KOmalAngi in his rendering of the ThAnam, and two vadais with sAmbAr. So here i am , a "listedunlistedcurean" - a work in porgress!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 04 Oct 2008, 03:45

As a former enlistee, I vouch that it's no fun at all. As for this pro-list and anti-list debate, while many people are pro-list, not one person I've encountered in this forum reads too much into it and is an extremist (excuse the politicising; I'm caught up in the comedy that is US politics). So I don't think anybody is for a moment under any illusion that a nice list means a nice concert. But I have learned so much just from reading these lists: sequence in which ragas are sung (singing similar ragas like Reethigowla and Anandha Bhairavi one after the other, which was a debate in itself) by various artistes, krithis (same krithi sung in Saveri or Bhairavi, or in mishra chapu or viloma chapu), which line the neraval was done on, presentation of a certain rare raga (which can spur discussions on the raga's character)... I could go on for a long time. For me, lists are primarily educational and for that reason, very fascinating. But I wouldn't equate it with the quality of the concert!

Also, a distinction must be made between the significance of lists for a person who's attended the concert in question, and for a person who knows nothing about it. For the former, the concert experience is so much more (being real in the first place), but for the latter, a list is a big part of visualising the progression of the concert (at least technically) and creating this mental image of the concert that we can take "home" with us.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 04 Oct 2008, 11:51

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Taking Kedharam's example, I probably wouldn't have made too much of the sahithya blunder
Vijay, your point is well taken. I want to point out that in Kedharam's example, it was not a sahitya blunder but a deliberate play with words which elicited some laughs from the audience. Those who can not read the tamil script would not get the context. Kedharam, you probably should transliterate and also translate for everyone's benefit. Thanks.

The blunder then is my own! I guess I needn't have added that disclaimer in my previous post about my knowledge of tamil! And perhaps Sanksrit as well, given the word in question...I really ought to do something about this sorry state of affairs...

I think Bilahari's has summed it up well.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 04 Oct 2008, 13:07

Unfortunately 'list' has been made 'culprist' and I would say to the extent of 'much ado about nothing'.
A person who has attended a concert is on completely different footing, for him a list has hardly any
significance. He has experirnced the nuances, quality etc etc whatever you call it.
It is those who did not/cannot attend who benefit by a list.( am sure it is intended for them)
Surely they constitute a sizeable number. It is best to treat the list and review as two distinct parts.
The review portion going to the experience/nuances aspects.
and if both the reviewer and reader look at it that way there should not be an issue.

kannama · Post by **kannama** » 05 Oct 2008, 06:26

Purist, let me consider a slightly different take on you distinction between a "list" and a what you term as a "review". A "review" would be a "review" if it carries some critical analysis with it. What we find often is a "list", some eulogistic nonsense or some banal observation like the singers' voice did not cooperate, etc. That, to me, is not a "review".

This forum seems obsessed with list-based-discussions. How many in-depth cover-drive-on-the-up "reviews" have you read of concerts that convey real meaning? Does anyone over here really know or care? When I say "review" I don't mean just flowery, eulogistic and panegyrical descriptions of the concert. I mean in-depth reviews.

As I said, if people know how to analyze a concert, they would. If not, they resort to random assertions or shallow hand-waves.

I suspect I will get banished with a "if you don't like it don't read it" defensive retort from the usual suspects. But I issue a challenge to all of us. Let us raise the bar if we can.

Otherwise here is a proposal. This thread is called "Kutcheri Reviews and Recordings". I vote to create "Kutcheri Lists and Recordings" and "Kutcheri Reviews" as two separate threads. My view is that the latter thread will have very little traffic in it.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Oct 2008, 07:05

kannama: Point well taken. Here are a few add-on points.

1) This is predominantly a rasikas forum. We are not necessarily experts in all the nuances to write a critical review.

2) Reviews need not be a critical analysis. From a rasika point of view, it can be an anubhava varnana as rshankar recently stated while writing about a concert he attended.

3) When a few people tried to write somewhat deeply about the performance itself, they got some interesting emails from artists or their ardent fans. They were along the lines of 'what do YOU know about music?'. They have since then either abandoned writing reviews or resorted to providing song lists.

4) The reviews we read in newspapers are not any better either. With rasikas' reports here, we at least get more information about the concert and their personal take on what appealed to them.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Oct 2008, 07:19

VK's points one and two are critical. I would also like to clarify, kannama, what specifically you mean by an in-depth review. What sort of of information would you be looking for?

kannama · Post by **kannama** » 05 Oct 2008, 08:34

VK: Good points. I agree. Especially point-1. Not many people over here are able to go beyond "this artiste sang so mellifluously" and "I liked this person's bhava-soaked rendition", etc.

Yes, "anubhava" description is acceptable if it is beyond, "this rendition brought tears to my eyes" or "that rendition filled my heart", or "the rendition set a tranquil atmosphere", or "this rendition was intellectually and emotionally pleasing" or "this rendition had the power to turn non-believers into believers" or "this song appealed to everyone in the audience -- young and old alike". What nonsense. How do they know that it appealed to everyone in the audience? A critical review will at least talk to
(a) Why it brought tears to the person's eyes, or
(b) Why it filled someone's heart, or
(c) How it may have appealed to everyone in the audience.

In the absence of the above, these "reviews" are silly assertions and hand-waves. Not many over here are even able to address (a), (b) and (c) above.

I accept VK's point-3 above. Maybe VK and others were at the receiving end of artiste-wrath or fan-wrath. So, why not call this thread "Katcheri Lists and Eulogies"? That is all that happens.

I agree with VK that so-called newspaper "reviews" are also just nonsense these days.

VK and bilahari, when I say "critical review" I do not mean "criticism". What I want to hear is a discussion on nuances of a particular rendition. Was the rendition of "gangeyabhushani" similar to TNS's rendition? What prayogams were unique? What was special about the kannakus that were performed? What was the korvai pattern? What was unique about it? More, much more.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Oct 2008, 08:46

Kannama,
We here at RasikAs are all at very different levels in our knowledge of music. Yet, we are equal here as members and are entitled to write on our impressions (?) about any concert we attend. Some who write fairly regularly know quite a bit about music. There again, some, much more than the others. They bring their knowledge and their responses to a concert to us rasikAs. You may not care to read the review of a particular critic in a newspaper and you may do the same here. The gist of it is, as fellow rasikAs, we share our musical experiences, period.
I am sure you have experienced this: coming out of the concert hall, your friend says, 'that kalyAni was awesome!'. You say, 'really? I thought it was disappointing. But the Arabhi was fantastic!'--and she knits her brows...We do the same thing here. We bring our sangItAnubhavam of a particular concert to others, and we know that we may not agree with all that we read there. We don't need to agree on what we find in a review. Our tastes differ. You can write one too, and that would add to the variety.
As VK said, sometimes, the reviewers (who provide lists too), get discouraged by remarks and stop writing. We try to cajole them back into reporting concerts because reviews are a vital part of the forum. Yes, and the lists too, which are fodder to our musical minds.
The list is not an evil thing! It educates. I am not thinking of one's obsession with a list. Far from it! Was it Vijay or Bilahari who said that those who do not attend a concert find the list helpful in following what the reviewer says? We also relive our past experiences of listening to a particular kriti. Some of us of advancing years find the lists a helpful tool in remembering forgotten songs and also in learning about songs and rAgAs we do not know.
Someone remarked that anyone who pays any attention to lists lacks the ability to enjoy the nuances of music--in which case, I do not know the nuances of CM, nor do many others in the forum.
If you go back to the beginning of the thread, you may know that I have already suggested to the administrator that a sub-section on song lists is not a bad idea if he feels that a review veers away from the substance of it with many questions and corrections.
Lists are just a set of songs. It is the performer who breathes life into it, and even the 'so called' list people know that, and know it too well...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Oct 2008, 09:03

Now I am walking around in the house asking, 'list? what list? ah, the grocery list'!, add one more item to it, and there! I am done with lists...
--shubham--

kannama · Post by **kannama** » 05 Oct 2008, 09:04

Yeah, I don't mind if one person thinks 'kalyani was awesome' or if another thinks 'arabhi was not great'. These are random hand-wavy assertions. What I am interested in is "Why was kalyani awesome?" or "How was arabhi a non-conformist?". If you can't answer that, then don't make assertions for which the only comeback when a qualify-please is issued is, "I can't say. I am not qualified on the technical aspects. yedho yennakku pudichudu / pudikkalai. avalavu thaan solla mudiyum". Duh? What nonsense?

kedharam · Post by **kedharam** » 05 Oct 2008, 09:36

Mangalam!

kannama · Post by **kannama** » 05 Oct 2008, 10:15

shubha mangalam...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Oct 2008, 10:37

When Hindu changes to calling their friday thing "Friday Concert Lists and Eulogies", we will consider changing the title of this sub-forum

Just kidding.

You seem to be taking very strictly ONE of the dictionary definitions. One of the definitions that M-W provides is 'a critical evaluation'. I grant you that. But then there are other meanings, namely, "a retrospective view or survey", "an account or a description of a concert". I guess those are the perspectives to take here.

If you insist any conversation about a concert ( as people are walking out of a concert hall or the written accounts here ) has to include the "why" of things to be considered "non silly", you are talking about a rapidly shrinking set of people you can converse with. What is the fun in that?

And it does not help if you characterize the voluntary efforts of rasikas here as "silly".

I see you are new here. Take your time and read the reviews posted here over the years and let us know if there are any that comes at least half way to your ideas on what reviews should be. That will be useful to all of us.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 05 Oct 2008, 10:40

So the list tops the 'HITLIST'. It should be give protection, lest it become endangered species.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Oct 2008, 11:49

Good Lord, Kannama, you're looking for a THESIS, not a review!

kannama · Post by **kannama** » 05 Oct 2008, 12:06

@VK, good points, especially about The Hindu.

I am not really new here. I have been reading with some anguish for the last 2 years, not really wanting to post because I saw nothing in common but a plethora of lists, an obsession with lists and numerous uncontestable assertions. After all, if someone says, "I and all my friends attained moksha after listening to ksheenamai" how can you challenge that hand-wave? The burial of Sangeetham was a blow.

I do apologize if I called rasikas here "silly". I did not mean to. I applaud the efforts of rasikas and I know it takes all sorts. But I don't think I called them "silly" anyway. I said that assertions that they make were silly. Assertions like "Song-A was so lovely it made my heart swell". "Song-B made me swoon with ecstacy", "Song-C uplifted me to the heavens and took the whole audience with it to attain moksha", etc... I termed these as "silly".

In the absence of an explanation of what really transported someone to moksha, I find these platitudes to be panegyric hyperbole to me -- what's the point? But I do acknowledge the efforts of rasikas and my attempt was more to uplift the tone than to demean the efforts.

As I said, I am ok with a "retrospective view" in a review. And yes, I grant that a literature review in any good journal paper or a PhD thesis is, after all, a survey of the literature that builds support towards a fundamental hypothesis.

And yes bilahari, in that sense, it may be that I am looking for more than empty platitudes. And I grant that my position may be untenable because it is less emotional and much more rational and grounded (thesis-like). Sorry. I just offered a point of view. Does not need to be taken.

My point is that, surely, we can do better than lists and platitudes?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 05 Oct 2008, 12:36

Kannama, to the extent that most of the write-ups on this forum fall short of "reviews", including my own occasional ramblings, I agree with you. Once in a while, when there is a rare flash of musical erudition (apoorva prayogams, kanakkuas, nadais, korvai, whatever) from particularly knowledgeable members of this forum, it does make for great reading. However I am also grateful even to those rasikas who take the time to provide "impressionistic" opinions and even plain songlists.

As Arasi, many of us here simply do not have the knowledge to qualify as reviewers. Fortunately this is not an expert forum. Erudition is welcome when it comes along but for the most part, this is for lay rasikas who are passionate about music. That being the case, someone looking to be educated by every post on this forum is in the wrong place (although with an open mind, one can learn lots - I have)

Regarding platitudes, there are two reasons - for one, we tend to write about concerts that we liked and that tends to skew the balance. For another, given our lack of expertise many of us (I for one, certainly) balk at giving negative comments. However there are some (Rajesh for example is refreshingly honest) who do not hesitate to call a spade a spade. I do wish we had more of those, even under an anonymous handle if that helps.

Finally we need to ask the question whether a highly technical review is an adequate judgment on a concert. I've sat through countless technically perfect performances that were plainly boring and some of my favourite artistes are those with grave flaws. Uday's fascination with Mali, for instance, exists in spite of his highly refined ear for tonal accuracy. Ultimately a concert is a communication between an artiste and a rasika - a report that is true to that communication is, in my opinion, one worth reading notiwithstanding its technical content, or lack thereof.

A sidenote on sangeetham. I was a great fan of the website and do miss it very much but I am not sure whether the quality of reviews/reports was any better (the editorial content is what set it apart). However there was more "criticism" that we see on this forum. On the other hand I believe this forum has reached a critical mass that has resulted in numerous reports on concert activities around the world on a scale that it is in a different league from the sangeetham days.

kannama · Post by **kannama** » 05 Oct 2008, 13:49

Vijay. I liked your considered response.

I am not for negative comments because of VK's reason-3 stated previously, nor am I against writing about concerts that we like. But what I want to know is more than a list or an "I attained nirvana" type platitude! What I want to know is "what made you get there". If you can't answer that, does one have to post? I have no problems with orgasmic brilliance. I want to know what made it so! Is that wrong? Now this is where this forum falls short for me. A critical analysis is what I am for. And that need not translate to a boring technical analysis. Read Roebuck's articles and read Bobbilli Vijay Kumar's to know the difference!

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 05 Oct 2008, 16:04

kannamma - reading through 30+ posts since yesterday. Pretty much all arguments are true - if a person posting a "review" is knowledgeable enough, he will write "why" something was good, and not so good. In the absence of that, it may not be complete as you expect. There are artist themselves who participate and write review like erode nagaraj, mannarkoil balaji, who add lot of value while writing reviews. Other than that, for layman reviews, like mine, can't have high expectations!

I request you to set the ball rolling by reviewing one of the concerts in happening in your area for navarathri, or review one of the concerts available in sangeethapriya. Please do participate regularly in writing reviews, and set high standards for others.

-hari

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 05 Oct 2008, 17:35

Because ,I am very much interested in cricket and its literature, I know that PeterRoebuck and BobbiliVijaykumar are present day cricket correspondents. . Do you mean to say that all rasikas members should know about them and read all the articles written by them ..do you think they are world famous writers? Even the millions of cricket lovers are only interested in knowing the scores and learning the results of the matches,people who have time at their disposal towatch matches on tv Most of them do not read aricles.,some of the ardent cricket lovers do not even know English. I have also read cricket articles by NEVILLE CARDUS(POETICAL LANGUAGE) AND Jack Fingleton.. your asking rasikas to read Roebuck and Bobbili is irrelevant to the issue sorry, if I have wounded you. gobilalitha

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Oct 2008, 21:34

What I want to know is "what made you get there". If you can't answer that, does one have to post?

Yes, Unequivocally, The reasons have been already discussed here.

I do not know why you keep harping on this point when we have moved on to considering what improvements can be made along the lines you suggested.

Secondly, I am 100% sure now that you have not read many of the reviews posted here. You only mention song lists and nirvana. But there are a whole lot of reviews that in fact provide the kind of information you are talking about. What s_hari wrote is quite relevant in this respect.

I asked you to read those and mention which ones come part ways to what you are expecting. Until then there is no point to this regression.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 05 Oct 2008, 22:33

Kannuku kanalam ponal yenna kannamma, buddhiki puriyamal ponal yenna kannamma,
kadhu onre kettale podhume....!!!
(what if you cannot see or understand , you only need an ear to listen....that is what music is about.)

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 06 Oct 2008, 01:00

Yes, I really would like for kannama to take the initiative and demonstrate what he/she wants by writing a review for our forum. Additionally, it would be appropriate for kannama to provide specific examples from reviews (referenced per thesis guidelines, naturally) to substantiate his/her claims, since I cannot find such exaggerated and exuberant statements about moskham and nirvana in even 10% of our reviews over the last couple of years. After all, kannama, if you want us to provide specific observations to support our feelings in reviews, you must do the same in your comments!

Additionally, kannama remarks that specific comments, maybe about prayogas, should figure in reviews. Suppose we do manage to figure out a phrase or two that we liked. Then it could easily be asked, what was so appealing about that phrase? We could try to dissect that phrase and even be able to indicate a particular glide from one note to another as very emotive. Then it could be asked, what was so emotive about that glide? In this sense, we could continue our dissection infinitely (or finitely until our knowledge or patience runs out) without actually providing satisfactory evidence for our claims.

Needless to say, most of us rasikas would love to improve our technical knowledge of music. But where can such technical examination of art take us? We are, after all, rasikas and not musicologists or vidwans. We appreciate music at whatever level we are capable of or willing to. Music is our pastime, our passion, our interest, but for most of us, not our occupation. If we are able to dissect a concert technically as a full time musician, we might find value in learning about the specific elements that we feel contributed to the concert's success or failure, and try to adopt the successful elements in our own performance and try to obliterate the bad. However, as rasikas, what do we gain from such exploration other than a certain pride in being able to understand music at such a microscopic level-- a pride that hovers near hubris?

Additionally, we must ask ourselves, what is the purpose of posting such a technical review in a rasikas' forum (other than to quash the anguish with which kannama has been reading posts for two years here)? The population of rasikas in this forum is naturally variegated and extends all the way from young music students and people who love the art but know very little about it (and still are creditably passionate about it!) to full-time musicians and artistes. The median rasika, I imagine, has learnt music for a few years and can keep tala and guess major ragas, but is hardly well-versed in the nuances of the art. When we post a review on concerts, what is our aim? Personally, my objective is to share MY experience with rasikas. Readers in turn are interested by what the singer sang, what I thought of the concert, how many people showed up, what he sang really well, how the accompaniments were, etc. If I provide specific and technical details (not that I can) about the concert, can I even successfully share it with the readers? How many of them would understand or even care about it? Are they even examining it closely for details?

Additionally, there is certainly a limit to writing about a concert. At a certain stage, phrases are just letters on the website and have no aesthetic or musical significance to readers. They need to hear it themselves in order to understand how I saw it (and taking it further, they need to have sat through the concert just like I did and with my mindset to understand my viewpoint).

You could argue naturally that we need to upgrade our knowledge of music so that ultimately we could all write scholarly reviews and understand each other. However, we are at the end just listeners. Who have lives as students, doctors, lawyers, scientists, parents, and cannot realistically, even if we wanted to, suddenly and vigorously upgrade ourselves in music.

So is your expectation, kannama, even considerate of the three dimensionality of rasikas.org?

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 06 Oct 2008, 01:12

Bilahari,
I think you have spoken on behalf of most of us. Very well expressed.

kannama · Post by **kannama** » 06 Oct 2008, 09:01

s_hari and bilahari: Good points. I accept most of them and will come back with responses to a key point that bilahari makes.

But first VK says, "I do not know why you keep harping on this point when we have moved on to considering what improvements can be made along the lines you suggested."

I did not get the impression that we had moved on to considering what improvements can be made along the lines I had suggested. But if you think we have moved on, I am fine with that.

I shall post a less platitude-filled, panegyrical review of the next concert I listen to. Thanks for the invite and the suggestion, s_hari.

bilahari, you asked for an example of the sorts of platitude-filled review that gets my goat -- and I agree that any such opinion of mine ought to have been adequately substantiated/referenced. In my defence, I have not done so thus far in this debate and kept it at a fairly general level, because I did not want to hurt the feelings of any specific (volunteer) rasika. No good can come from taking specific aim. Generalities are better for this, in my view. But if you (bilahari, s_hari, VK, et al) want me to give specific examples despite this feeling, I am happy to do so.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Oct 2008, 09:52

No good can come from taking specific aim. Generalities are better for this, in my view. But if you (bilahari, s_hari, VK, et al) want me to give specific examples despite this feeling, I am happy to do so.

No, let us not go there. Let us take for granted that there are platitude filled reviews

Do the opposite. Quote a review or two from this forum that meets you half way or quarter way.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 06 Oct 2008, 19:34

Kannamma has lamented the quality of the reviews of music, which have no technical details and are filled with hyperbole. As the author of a few of these myself, (not on this forum, but on our own websites), I would like to say a few words ..

Music is one of those "assymetrical" areas of knowledge, where it takes a lot
more training, talent and skill to produce content than to appreciate it. In
contrast to, say, quantum physics or higher mathematics, where discussion tends
to be confined to an elite circle of people highly educated on the technical
details, an "ordinary" person, even one with no knowledge of music, can still be touched by a well executed musical piece - carnatic, or otherwise. Enjoymnet of music is fundamental to the human soul, and everyone experiences it.

To put this in context, let us take some other art which is hard to do but easy
to enjoy - say cooking. If we go to a good restaurant and have a wonderfully
satisfying meal, how would you describe it to someone else? You can try to
describe and recreate the sensations - "Started our dinner with the mint
flavoured tomato soup and makkai seekh kebab(corn kababs), followed it with
rotis and a mixed vegetable mushroom vegetable and finally to the yummy subz
chilman biryani......it was simply outstanding. The aroma took our breath away
and the taste lived up to the expectations created by it. The restuarant was
well laid out with a fantastic ambience." (from an actual review on the
internet). Or if you are an expert, and want to make sure everyone knows it, you
can say something like "the mushroom subzi was good because they clearly sauteed the mushrooms in butter BEFORE adding the spices". In either case, it is
impossible to convey the essence of the meal to anyone who has not eaten it.

It is the same with music. A concert is an intense personal experience. At some
level, it is un-describable. This is fundamental to the nature of the art, and
not a defect in the reviewer. As a matter of fact, I've had the situation many
times where I thoroughly enjoyed a concert, and when listening later to a
recording of the same concert, wondered why it didn't sound as good. (Before you
say bad recording, I must note that as an organizer, I had recordings made right
from the sound board, perfect in all respects!). To take our analagy with
cooking, you must have noticed that take-aways or doggie bags never succeed in
replicating the restaurant dining experience.

So what is a reviewer to do to capture the thrill and joy of a live concert
that he has enjoyed and convey it to others? He lapses into song lists and
raptures, which may sound empty on cold clinical analysis, but convey rather
more than the sum of the words they are written in when interpreted together
with the reader's other experiences.

- Sreenadh Jonnavithula

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Oct 2008, 20:43

Sreenadh, the cooking analogy came to my mind as well. You have made some very good points with that analogy. When 'rasam' comes out great, even the maker of that rasam can not really describe the exact ingredients and the precise recipe that made the difference that day. One can always try to characterize it in terms of chemical equations but then one may not get invited again for dinner

Your 'take out' analogy to song lists is interesting. Yes, the 'take out' is like listening to a concert recording whereas the bill from the restaurant is the song list.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 07 Oct 2008, 12:52

Well brought out ShrutiLaya. Though my post (# 35) was in lighter vein the import was, it is only listening
experience(bliss) that matters. Reviews howsoever intellectual cannot replicate nor convey in words
for one to experience.
The list is meant for those wanting to know what the artist sang and the review for those who wish
to know how it was.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 07 Oct 2008, 13:35

Wonderful explantion Shruthilaya !

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 11 Oct 2008, 12:51

One can listen to tapes of old concerts and you have stalwarts singing the same songs in many concerts. Semmangudi singing "Deva Deva Kalayamithe", "Marubalga", "Birana brova ithe", etc. You have Madurai Mani Iyer singing "Kapali" or "Ma Janaki". There are countless such examples. Yet nobody seemed to have complained then and I don't have a problem listening to those concerts because I see different handling of the ragas and/kritis in those concert tapes. That is an outstanding testament to the depth of their knowledge of music.

When today's rasikas demand the song list in reviews on this site and some folks and musicians complain about their lack of musical acumen, I wonder if they are barking up the wrong tree. Who is to say that these rasikas aren't knowledgeable? Maybe their evaluation is that since they do not see depth in today's musicians, they could at least hope for breadth and want to hear different kritis from an artist each time he performs in a concert.

Just my two cents on the matter.