New look of MA - SK awards

rananthga · Post by **rananthga** » 29 Jul 2013, 10:25

If you measure SK worthiness by the impact that individual has had on the growth / appreciation of CM across the world - I'd argue Sudha definitely deserved it. While staying within the boundaries of chaste carnatic music and bhakti to her guru MLV - she's popularized it to many parts of the world. While this can be viewed as a controversial decision, I cannot imagine any year - where SK announcements have not been without controversy. When it comes to awards like this - a highly subjective process left to the whims and fancies of a few in the committee - we should expect these things.

However - I do feel saddened by Murali's statement (about transition from yesteryear to new generation) - my dear TVG sir, VVS, Kanyakumari, OST, NSG, Guruvayur Dorai Sir etc. are not considered SK worthy anymore ??. There are so many "endharo mahanubhaava's" whose contributions to music has been unparalleled. Before they signal the end of yester-year artistes, MMA should do something to honor these individuals.

This leaves me with a question - what's really the purpose of SK?

1. Is it a career booster?
2. Or acknowledgement of culmination of an amazing impact an individual has had on CM?

If SK is viewed as a career booster - I'd ask what's the point in giving this to someone in their 70's? If SK is an acknowledgement of the culmination of a successful journey then there are several deserving folks that need to be recognized before Sudha.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 29 Jul 2013, 10:31

Following RSachi's sage advice, I am happy to move on (albeit begrudgingly so).
Congratulations again to Smt Sudha Raghunathan!

And in the prophetic and immortal words of Bob Dylan from 1964:

"Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'. "

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 29 Jul 2013, 10:37

>> Let us celebrate the newly named SK.

Exactly.. i haven't attended her concert often... can some technically equipped person review her recent concert without any bias or being judmental on following

1. patantaram, sangathis intact on well known keerthanas - are sangathis adultrated/modified ?
2. manodharmam - alapana, neraval, swaram - how much of her school stamp is intact, and how much is her contribution
3. RTP - what's the complexity, and what's new
4. thukkada/post tani section

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 29 Jul 2013, 10:39

"with any bias" => should read as "*without* any bias" ...sorry about that

Corrected. -
Moderator

raghavt · Post by **raghavt** » 29 Jul 2013, 11:00

Hi,

I didn't want to take lead in stirring up the hornet nest. I fully agree to pattamaa Posts: 142. The fact that mr murali had to say that the decision was unanimous... we can be sure that there was something...
hard lobbying and what not.... the charm of sk has gone... with due respect to the sk designate... let me say its too early for her to take an award like sk... whatever may be the moto of MA.... this has brought down the weight of SK....

I had posted some honest opinion about other stuff much earlier in rasikas.org only to receive brickbats

so refrained from commenting...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Jul 2013, 11:00

In the spirit of what Sachi has said, I guess one has to accept that every year the choice is bound to leave a segment of us disappointed, but at the same time, one should probably also acknowledge that at the very least, the past several choices, including this year's have passed the red-face test. I may be setting the bar too low, but given the history of the MMA, I think the test is the answer to the following question: Was it awarded to avert a suicide! :p

raghavt · Post by **raghavt** » 29 Jul 2013, 11:04

"Was it awarded to avert a suicide!" hahaha l liked it rshankar sir... that was too good.

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 29 Jul 2013, 11:08

Or, probably a one-up on Bombay Jayashree who failed to win the Oscars

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 29 Jul 2013, 13:02

It certainly was not unanimous--anonymous sources tell me that when these-- initial discussions came up for SK there was a drum-beat for Sudha but Murali was quoted to be ambivalent and is purported to have remarked Ippo Enna Avasaram(a la Tiger style of remark purportedly made to LGJ's father in the early forties when LGJ's father persisted in requesting Tiger to sit thro' LGJ's maiden debut@ the Thyagaraja Aradhana--LGJ must have been 12 or 14 @ that time!).
I agree with Mahavishnu on most of the points. But my take on this--- based on my late father's interactions with the MA authorities over time--the initiative had steadily shifted from the Musicians who used to form the Experts Committe which used to choose the SK to the Executive Committee.All sorts of pulls and tugs dominated the discussions with no transparencies or criteria for selection ever laid down orally or written. The slights and insults to veterans like TMT or LGJ and many others too proudto toot their horns--all these have eroded the credibility and respect for MA amongst the Musical fraternity over the years--the Rasikas opinion expressed thro fourms like ours seldom made any impression on the MA authorities.
Even the when the Doyen of CM Music was alive(SSI) they(MA)selectively used his endorsement as a good Housekeeping Seal of Approval but more often ignored his recommendations. In fact MA got SSI "trapped" in the TMT=TNK SK selection process--forumites might recall(those old enough to be around @ that time) TMT was the original recipient for that year and he had also been informally sounded about it but before they could make it official, several forces vigorously campaigned for TNK and "steamrolled" the Committee in favor of TNK much to the embarassment of TMT who was so outraged that he had to be assuaged that he would be the nominee for next year--an unusual step inasmuch as the awards are decided only annually and not in advance-- and SSI was torn(afterall both were his disciples) but unable to stop/stall the process acqiesced in it with a warning to the MA folks that given that TMT is a principled man if they played this hanky panky again there would be serious consequences to the reputation of the MA. SSI personally appealed to TMT to accept the title when proposed--after demurrhal TMT agreed ---. still seething with the feeling of betrayal by his own guru.
Caveat: If I am not mistaken this was the first time two disciples of the same guru were honored consecutively not because of "due process" but because of extraordinary machinations and manipulations.

It is sad that all the prior lessons have not been learned and the MA has not thought of a "fair selection" process that enhances the credibility to music lovers all over the world--we all have our favorites but if given the right background of information,I believe we --CM lovers are reasonable people who would go along with the selection.
Rsaachi: I agree the banter may seem excessive but this forum's views --collective I might add--need to be vented not that this would be a factor in the selection process!!!

sruthi · Post by **sruthi** » 29 Jul 2013, 13:27

Wasn't Semmangudi himself just 39 when he got the SK award in 1947? I am sure several senior artistes at the time must have been equally upset by the decision of MA, as now.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 29 Jul 2013, 14:09

Dear Rasikas,

MA should not use ACHARYA awards to deny SK award.There is a great vidwan Sri Madurai GS Mani.His music is scholarly.
Definitely in any scale Sri Madurai GS Mani is a SK.He has been awarded Acharya a few years ago.
TVG,OST,Vijaya siva still stand a chance of becoming SK as they have not been conferred ACHARYA.Pl correct me if I am wrong.
It is difficult to digest this year's SK award.It would be good if the award criteria is transparent.

satyabalu · Post by **satyabalu** » 29 Jul 2013, 14:15

* My best wishes.
* She is popular. However, I do not think she gives Lec-Dems . as compared to her contemporaries.
* For her lineage she can give presentation of specialities of her Guru viz., Purandaradasa, Rare ragas, Sruti bedam,Dikshidhar kriris including Sri Viswanatham -Raga malika, Ekamberasa nayike-Poorvi kalyani...(neraval in "Omkara rupam sivam") &GNB favourites. to suggest a few.
* I also want to know details of her disciples who are performing.
* Curious to know if she can play any instrument besides being a vocalist.?
* She can use her celebrity status for furthering her mission of organising benefit program for the underprivileged.
* Any compositions /added chiitai swaram for any kriti? published any books/research papers in India /Abroad.?
* Any jugalbandi done by her ?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Jul 2013, 14:33

cmlover wrote:Now by the present trend who will be the next SK?

On the one hand, one event doesn't make a trend, and, with an annual event, a trend takes quite a few years.

On another hand, The Hindu reminds us of the several people who have been awarded SK at a relatively early age. Mind you. I do not comment here on the relative stature of those great people: only on the age.

Very well said, mahavishnu. I have nothing to add except that this choice is nothing but a cheap publicity stunt for the MA- a way of getting attention via glamour

Maybe. And I agree absolutely with your list of alternatives: were we on that committee there would be no dissent between us!

However, I have long felt that Sudha is an artist who is not taken as seriously as she deserves, and, as exhibit number one, I offer the fact that I do not take her as seriously as I believe she deserves! If the MA has made a mistake or an error of judgement here, then let that be pronounced in January 2014. Those who frequent the Academy season, and especially the early-morning events and lecdems will be in a position to report on how this year's season leader [what do they call it?] conducts and contributes to the affair.

arasi wrote:You and I are the only senior rasikAs in this discussion, it seems. Well, Nick is lagging behind, but catching up

Oh for those wonderful days when people used to think I was forty-something and not senior at all X. Anyway, everybody in this thread, even if they are twenty years younger, is senior to me in music (But hey, that doesn't get them a discount on the trains, hee hee

)

The appreciation of serious CM will go on too, with the younger generation of discerning rasikAs.

well, exactly (although the numbers of the young give cause for concern, but that is another story) and SK is but one award, one event in the year.

That the committee was unanimous in the choice--is a worrying statement, I agree. It may be indicative of what's coming--that the older musicians may not be considered for the award, and even among younger ones, the choice will be for a musician who has most popularity...

As I said, one event doesn't make a trend. It's only one year. What, by the way, is the average age of this committee? I would expect that many of them could make feel young. Or has Sri Murali (whom I have nothing against, and without whom the MMA might not still exist in any respectable form) surrounded himself with youngsters?

mahavishnu wrote:chairing the academic proceedings of the conference.

Oh yes, that's what they call it

I had just booked my tickets for my music season pilgrimage yesterday.

Oh good! Happy you will be in Chennai this year and looking forward to seeing you

ramamantra wrote:Accepting and receiving SK award is like facing the veiled waterloo, more than an accolade. Most musicians start wasting away after receiving it. Many middle aged musicians suddenly tend to age after that. So, it is all the same if given to older people who wld even otherwise age naturally or youngsters who have achieved the 'pinnacle' and don't know what to do. Why bother!

I think there may be some cause/effect confusion there. At a certain age, people tend to waste away, and at middle age, people tend to start ageing fast (as I bemoaned above

).

The list of currently-surviving SKs includes some who are very active indeed, and a few who seem to defy age itself.

Pardon me, ladies and gentlemen,
But this banter seems, to my limited mind, a bit excessive if continued in this vein, and then there will be no winners.

Let us celebrate the newly named SK.

Yes, I agree. My congratulations to Sudha stand, and I say again, that we should at least wait and see until December.

However, regardless of individuals, if the MA has taken a decision to "youth up" then I think that deserves comment and is just as wrong as being elderly-focussed. Age should not be the criteria.

rananthga wrote:However - I do feel saddened by Murali's statement (about transition from yesteryear to new generation)

Quite.

mahavishnu wrote:Following RSachi's sage advice, I am happy to move on (albeit begrudgingly so).
Congratulations again to Smt Sudha Raghunathan!

And in the prophetic and immortal words of Bob Dylan...

Ahhh... SK for Bob Dylan? The committee (as Arasi imagines it), sitting down, speaking the word "Bob," with one voice, getting up and going home again? At least it would give me the opportunity to bemoan that they never gave it to Gerry Garcia!

devan · Post by **devan** » 29 Jul 2013, 16:26

sruthi,you have hit the nail on the head.had it been awarded to sanjay (a male)this uproar would not have happened.yards sticks are different still.

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 29 Jul 2013, 16:58

devan - in my opinion - with vidwat alone - there is no comparison between sanjay and sudha.. Sanjay is far far apart ! I am not biased in saying this. if you look for mass appeal, sudha is the winner...but, you have nityashree, and aruna sairam also in same bracket...

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 29 Jul 2013, 18:09

Let us welcome the selection (of Sudha Ragunathan) whole heartedly. In a way it is good that MA has chosen some one active in the field. Hope this welcome change is continued in future.

doyoucare · Post by **doyoucare** » 29 Jul 2013, 18:47

>>and SSI was torn(afterall both were his disciples) but unable to stop/stall the process acqiesced in it with a warning to the MA folks that given that TMT is a principled man if they played this hanky panky again there would be serious consequences to the reputation of the MA<<

ROTFL at the irony!!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Jul 2013, 19:19

skris,
About the two awards I suggested: If you think it's superfluous, considering that there are other no-fuss, rasikA-based ones like the sangeethapriya award (Pattamma also brought it to my attention), then my suggestion serves no purpose, I see now.

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 29 Jul 2013, 19:32

MA is fast becoming BCCI - if not already. one may justify with all kinds of logic but this choice will remain an insult not only for the ones who are left out this year, but also to the awardees of the recent past. All respect to her music, but its not there yet!

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 29 Jul 2013, 19:43

satyabalu wrote:*
to suggest a few.
* I also want to know details of her disciples who are performing.
* Curious to know if she can play any instrument besides being a vocalist.?
* She can use her celebrity status for furthering her mission of organising benefit program for the underprivileged.
* Any compositions /added chiitai swaram for any kriti? published any books/research papers in India /Abroad.?
* Any jugalbandi done by her ?

AFAMK goes ' NO ' is the answer. Let us hope that the above items will be taken care .

Thanjavooran
29 07 2013

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 29 Jul 2013, 20:03

She has produced a jugalbandi CD with an HM artist.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Jul 2013, 21:29

Listen here: http://mio.to/artist/8/2608-Sudha_Ragun ... Panshikar/

gardabha_gana · Post by **gardabha_gana** » 29 Jul 2013, 21:39

She did a fusion of sorts on a US tour recently!

GNB_LGJ_PR · Post by **GNB_LGJ_PR** » 29 Jul 2013, 21:45

On the one hand I feel happy that MA has recognized the reach, appeal and greatness of the GNB bani but as MKR sir(our forum Tiger) aptly put it "Ippo Enna Avasaram". Atleast four great vidvans of the previous generation deserved it IMHO (TVG, VVS, GD and KRM) and I feel very sad for them not being recognized by MA yet

I see this as a tactical move by MA to exonerate itself when they award SK to "you know who" next year.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Jul 2013, 21:50

I'd rather see it go to you-know-who than to you-know-who

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 29 Jul 2013, 22:11

Mahavishnu has brought out very valid points..
I do have highest regard for Sudha Ragunathan and her music..
Vishnu could have avoided about her personal trade marks!

Shri Murali’s statement that the award to her represents the transition from musicians from yesteryears to the next generation,”

If it is the case nobody suits the slot better than Chitra vina RaviKiran..( read it with the reasoning putforth for Aruna Sairam)

Academy's Sangeetha Kalanidhi Award has been always like Oscar Awards….if not Noble one..
Artists with merit also get awarded out of turn..once in a way!
Sangeetha Kalanidhi award seems to be not always related to artistic skills…
MD Ramanathan was not awarded the sangeetha Kalanidhi when he was alive
BalaMurali Krishna was awarded that at a very young age…so as SSI..
Whatever way you look at it, it defies logic..
There has to be transparency in the selection process…
Voting process may by introduced among members of the Acadamy in which non members among musicians can take part ..voting after screening interview by eminent musicians …
In this process personal likes and dislikes can get eliminated..
Even in our poll.only around 30 members participated among 7000+ members..
As such It may be necessary to think about poll being representative for larger number of voters..

Wishing the new SK the best wishes to carry on the mission!

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 29 Jul 2013, 22:17

arasi wrote:skris,
About the two awards I suggested: If you think it's superfluous, considering that there are other no-fuss, rasikA-based ones like the sangeethapriya award (Pattamma also brought it to my attention), then my suggestion serves no purpose, I see now.

Arasi, no it's not that. What will be the difference (as compared to all the existing awards) if we have our own awards? Will we award to deserving non-Sangeetha Kalanidhis only, or else what is the criteria we should use? I don't yet see the rationale behind the proposed award. Is it to correct the apparent wrongs in the SK selection process? We will need a lot of clarity through detailed discussions before we embark on this exercise. I am not ruling it out at this stage but I have myself not thought it out. Others can also opine.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Jul 2013, 22:39

Good suggestion srkris
AFAIK there is no award for CM selected really by the CM Rasikas.
The sangitapriya award does not fit the bill since it is selected by a commitee where issues other than
CM are taken into consideration. For example the award is made to those who serve best the CM Rasikas.
We need an award which is Rasika based, based on their knowledge and appreciation of CM.
As the largest International group of CM Rasikas we are eminently qualified to recognize the best among CM
and honour them periodically.
We can solicit opinion from our vast membership as to how such an award may be strctured and the relevant criteria.

Let us hear from our members..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jul 2013, 23:58

We can look at the mechanics of the People's choice awards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Choice_Awards

"..Throughout the 20th century, the awards were based upon results from Gallup polls. Each year, Gallup took a survey of different categories for favorite actor, actress, movie, artist, television program or group. The scope was unlimited—the public could choose whomever or whatever it liked. The results of the annual survey were announced in the form of the People's Choice Awards.
Since polls have margins of error, many years' awards have had ties in at least one category, when Gallup declared that the voting was so close that a single winner could not be chosen. For instance, in 2003, both Spider-Man and The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring were recognized as Favorite Motion Picture."

Then there is some material about 'Switch to online voting' which may be more appropriate for what we are talking about. Or a combination of both.

These methodologies may not directly translate to CM, so people will have to tweak it and also learn by trial and error.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 30 Jul 2013, 07:52

thanjavooran wrote:
* I also want to know details of her disciples who are performing.
* Curious to know if she can play any instrument besides being a vocalist.?
* She can use her celebrity status for furthering her mission of organising benefit program for the underprivileged.
* Any compositions /added chiitai swaram for any kriti? published any books/research papers in India /Abroad.?
* Any jugalbandi done by her ?

AFAMK goes ' NO ' is the answer. Let us hope that the above items will be taken care .

- Sangeetha Swaminathan is a prime disciple of Sudha Ragunathan
- Sudha raised a lot of funds for various causes like Kargil victims, Cancer centres - through her organisation Samudhaaya
- She has sung several jugalbandhis with Hindustani musicians as well as musicians of other genres
- she has sung many complex pallavis - for example a pancha nadai pallavi at the Music Academy in the early 1990s

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 30 Jul 2013, 08:13

As a huge GN fan, I am not sure Sudha Raghunathan is a true representative of GN school.

First, GN's approach to ragas, the kalapramanam - esp. the big ragas - thodi, kalyani or even rakthi ragas - Yadhukulakamboji or the polish of krithi rendition.
When one listens to SKR or MLV (to a slightly lesser extent), one can easily discern the GN "plan" in the approach to the ragas.
GN concerts (from photos) and MLV concerts will be full of disciples providing vocal support and thus providing concert exposure.

In my view, Sudha's music is focussed more on pleasing the rasikas (as many composers as possible, I never understood this funda) instead of focusing on raga alapana, kalpana swara virtuosity. Everyone wants to be the successor of MS mantle

I have heard that MLV was a great human being and she developed / supported many younger musicians - A. Kanyakurmari, G. Harishankar, Tiruvarur Bakthavatsalam ...

Among the musicians of today, Sanjay Subramanian has caught on to the GN touch esp. the Kamboji phrasings along the lines of Enai Marandhu ... Another musician who has imbibed the raga portrayal of the GN plan is Sangeetha Sivakumar, but she does not get much press.

Anyhow, SK is also given to the popular concert performing musicians of that period. In that metric, Sudha Ragunathan fits that criterion.

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 30 Jul 2013, 09:09

>> Can sudha play an instrument

-- yes. Tanpura

>> Jugalbadhis !

-- yes, she did perform with TMK

SK is now more like Padma award, lot of lobbying etc... it has lost its charm... as annamalai says - if popularity is sole criteria, i have nothing against it. I have stopped hearing popular music years ago !!!

Someone compared MAA Vs BCCI... Good comparison... seems both are arrogant...but not sure MMA is as rich as BCCI

Both have contributed in their respective fields, but to limited extent...

what is MMA's mission statement (if they have one?)...How are they different from other sabhas (Don't say they have Posh auditorium with great accoustics and good Loo !!) why are we paying more attention? It's time to move attention to other sabhas where music gets priority over politics and lobbying.. my two cents...

Rajagopalan_V · Post by **Rajagopalan_V** » 30 Jul 2013, 12:16

Thus spake the (unsolicited) Advice-peddler Indian who also happens to be a self-proclaimed Carnatic Music rasika ...

The Madras Music Academy should consider instituting a new award viz. 'Sangita Kala Ranchaka' to be given to the 'most popular' amongst Vidwans/Vidhushis.

Sort of a 'listener's choice' type award which could be given to those past masters who popularize the art form by various means -- including a combination of one or more of the following -- hard work, perseverance, 100s of concerts over the years across the globe, glitz, glamour, couture, leveraging noveau technologies, gizmos, gadgets, contributing to social causes through music and/or leveraging the popularity attained through music, gaining competence, fame and popularity in other genres such as filmi music, fusion experiments, albums, panel judge in delivering historic verdicts on the "sheer bhaavam brought out by a kid in singing "kaLyaanandhaan kattikittu pudichukkalaamaa", reaching traditional music to masses through innovative initiatives, ithyaadhi....

And the traditional 'Sangita Kalanidhi' award could still go to the most deserving senior artiste based on his/her accomplishments, vidwat, hard work, erudition, patAntharam, bAni, bhAvam, musical virtuosity, creative genius, mastery over pallavi, laya, thALA, kaNakku Vazhakku, soulful and mellifluous music, dedication, devotion, bHakti towards music, sheer musicality and many such musical parameters....

This could be a clear 'sweet spot' solution to the decades-old contentious issue of the vidwat vs. popularity debate.

AsatOmA satgamaya .....

jodha · Post by **jodha** » 31 Jul 2013, 13:11

May be the MA thinks the SK awards should be like Nobel whereon the criteria is merit and not age.The merit of a vidwan is highly subjective.Some one points out hat an SK awardee should be sound in theory & mentor ship.If U go by these how TVS got SK ! he has only one disciple RSP in the performing circuit.So MA could have saved this banter at least had they selected Charumathi Ramachandran who qualifies better than SR IMHO.Congrats SR any way.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 31 Jul 2013, 13:53

Dear Friends,
In case you go by number of disciples on the performing stage,take the case of Sri Lalgudi Jayaraman.I can list the following:
Lalgudi Shrimati
Bombay Jayashree
Saketaraman
T Rukmini
HK Venkataram
Vittal Ramamurthy
Padma Shankar
Visaka Hari
Pakkala Ramadas
GJR Krishnan
Vijayalakshmi
There may be a few more.
Sri TVGoplakrishnan has many disciples performing on the stage in Mridangam,Violin,Vocal.
Sri MDR taught at Kalakshetra .In spite of his being very knowledgeable,There are no performing artists on the stage.
In some cases,there may be no correlation to get SK award based on the student criteria.However the students performing on stage should be an important one to get SK honour.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Jul 2013, 14:35

If the award is supposed to represent a contribution to carnatic music over and above performance, then students, teaching, lecturing, could be an important part of that. If it is about performance, then that should not be expected. Isn't it only the few who combine great skills in both performance and teaching?

prabuddha · Post by **prabuddha** » 31 Jul 2013, 16:19

Actually it would be a good idea for the artistes to band themselves together and give out awards. That will show a different perspective from say that of the Academy. The Academy is an organization of patrons even though many of the members are very knowledgeable. In the 21st century, for the artistes not to have their own association and to hang on to the patrons' organization is anachronistic and feudal. In addition, rasikas should band themselves too and give out their own awards.

So now we can have three different perspectives. CM unfortunately still lives in the world of Serfoji, Thukkoji and Ekkoji and I don't mean that as a compliment.

puru00047 · Post by **puru00047** » 31 Jul 2013, 17:37

arasi wrote:
Yes, the arts reflect life in another way too. Think of this: "We want our most accomplished and beautiful daughter to marry a music-loving man, coming from a highly cultural family, looks are not important, nor money", some folks say, and the next thing you know, they are bragging about their tall and handsome son-in-law who's making millions. Music appreciation? Don't ask.He loves doing night clubs...

Superb, prime minister. :ymapplause:

puru00047 · Post by **puru00047** » 31 Jul 2013, 18:05

SK's like peerage/honours/quangos these days. Anyone who's watched Yes Minister would agree

"Jobs for the boys"

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Jul 2013, 19:42

Just like Oscar the selection of SK should have two components:
Popular votes and Expert committee.
By no stretch of imagination SR will make it then..
Popular votes, KJY will bag the trophy with ease
Expert committee TVG will lead the pack...

RKrishnamurthy · Post by **RKrishnamurthy** » 31 Jul 2013, 23:54

The tenure system in its Universities is a reasonable example to follow in considering many awards. It is a long and arduous journey that takes six to seven years before a young faculty is “tenured”, which implies life long appointment. In a way it can be treated as an “award”. There may be slight variations from university to university, but the criteria is embodied in these three areas.
(1) Professional competence: How good are you as a teacher? How many courses did you develop? What innovations have you made in the class room? How many students are taking your classes? What is their feed back?
(2) Professional recognition: What is your scholastic out put? How many peer reviewed papers you have published? How many grants have you obtained? How many MS and PhD students have you advised? How many books have you written?
(3) Professional service: How many committees have you headed or served? Have you done anything for the community in terms of your expertise? How many papers have you reviewed? How many grant proposals have you reviewed? How many meetings did you organize or chair?
All these criteria are discussed at several levels, internally and externally, before a decision is made. I am not saying the system is 100% fool proof, but it is nearly so, given the number of bodies who deliberate on these criteria again and again. You are also told how your review went at various levels so you have a chance to appeal if necessary.
In the case of Carnatic music, whether it is the SK or awards given by other sabhas or the awards given by organizations in the US, there is no well defined criteria or if there is one, adherence to that. It is all highly subjective , arbitrary and invariably one “strong man” decides who should get what. The Carnatic scene and the SK culture is still highly Tamil Brahmin centric and that itself poses a question. Still, the main thing to look at is this. Many deserving candidates may not get a coveted award, but those who get it must justify that award. Age is no consideration here. Mossbauer got a Nobel prize for his PhD thesis at the age of 24. He deserved it, at the same time many deserving people did not get the Nobel prize too (there is a white man element here, I must admit, similar to the Tamil Brahmin element in CM).
Dr Rama Krishnamurhy

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Aug 2013, 00:08

That is an interesting insight, but it goes with a situation where the awardees have considerable, daily, professional and ethical responsibility and is also necessarily teacher-centric. Unless the MA wants to give its SKs teaching jobs for life, making them responsible for the production of young musicians and its reputation as a teaching organisation its awards do not really compare to those of an institution where higher education and research are the daily bread.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 01 Aug 2013, 03:02

Well RKrishnamurthy & Nick have given this discussion an entirely new flavour.

While we have a proliferation of sabhas, with the Music Academy leading the pack, the respectability of the academy has been taking a hit over the years... and like the United states' economy is to the world economy, there is no clear alternative to the Music Academy, so it carries on like a lumbering giant oblivious of its successes or failures, or even it's raison d'être.

As its name shows, it was probably conceived originally as an "Academy" which means it was a vidwat (or knowledge) oriented institution. It should have evolved into something like a university undertaking lots of research etc. However it has evolved into a commercial sabha doling out sangeetha kalanidhis without transparency, regardless of the competence or popularity of the awardees.

Do we really therefore look for a university type institution - which incorporates a lot of academic rigour into its decisions and deliberations, as the posts above have called for? Is there really a demand for such an entity in the Carnatic Music scene today?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 01 Aug 2013, 06:02

The criteria for SK eligibility is not at all clear. Here are few of my observations on this:

- The majority of awardees to date have been prolific performers at the highest level.
- A handful have been musicologists (eg Prof Sambamoorthy or TL Venkatarama Iyer) or composers (Papanasam Sivan or Ponniah Pillai).
- Teaching ability doesn't seem to have been a major criteria although some of the performer-awardees are music gurus of note as well (Ariyakudi, Semmangudi, GNB, Pinakapani, Vedavalli, UKS).
- Seniority (in age) seemed to be a criteria but there are several exceptions.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 01 Aug 2013, 07:36

Dear brother-member, mohan, Always a society needs an efficient, honest and reliable teacher only but not a performer who always strives hard only for his/her self-aggrandisement. For a common person each and every performer appears like a great GURU and even the performer himself/herself thinks in the same manner. But, as the common person doesn’t have any yardstick either to assess the teacher’s knowledge to teach or the quality of the lesson he/she imparts to the aspirant or even to adjudge the quality of the aspirant after learning the lesson, he/she must remain satisfied with the available music-teacher on hand and the standards. In the absence of this knowledge, it is very difficult to find such a teacher even one in hundreds or even in thousands of performers. In which way a thief only can locate another thief a true teacher only can recognize another teacher. But, as all these musicians receiving all these ritual awards or titles or honours are only efficient in performing but not in teaching at all they cannot even locate an efficient teacher. To tell the fact, while it is very easy to shape a person as a good performer it is not that easy to shape a person as an efficient teacher and such a teacher only helps to maintain a healthy society. I became surprised when accidentally, three or four years back, I had been to Kalakshetra, came across some of the vocal-music-students and found that they are also not taught in the way they should be taught. More over, very sadly I found the same in all the Music-colleges and Universities of all the States I have visited. That is why the urgent need is to produce efficient teachers only but not performers. amsharma

devan · Post by **devan** » 01 Aug 2013, 21:20

it is a bitter truth.failed musicians become muscicologist or teachers.world is running because of the practical people.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Aug 2013, 22:44

The old saying those that can't do, teach has some basis in truth, but it completely overlooks the many specific skills of the teacher.

For a common person each and every performer appears like a great GURU...

Yes, they do, and the would-be student, at least when they are a beginner, has the eternal problem, if you have no experience in something, how can you tell if your teacher is any good? The only suggested answer to that that I can find is to look at their students rather than at the teacher. But still, one is judging something that one is not really qualified to judge.

skris wrote:As its name shows, it was probably conceived originally as an "Academy" which means it was a vidwat (or knowledge) oriented institution. It should have evolved into something like a university undertaking lots of research etc. However it has evolved into a commercial sabha doling out sangeetha kalanidhis without transparency, regardless of the competence or popularity of the awardees.

Another thing that I'm unable to judge, but others here are. Just what is behind the facade and public events of the MA? To what extent does the expert committee "expert (verb)" as part of the academy? How much research does it do? There are certainly some extremely eminent and scholarly people associated with it.

SK, as it stands, unlike USA-University tenure, is, essentially, just another gong, another medal, another plaque on the wall. What we see is the people who have been awarded it, and we see that, give or take the odd controversy, that yes, they are the prime of carnatic music --- but don't most sabbhas give their awards and titles to the best? But SK is the only one that people bother about. In fact, it is the only one that I can actually name!

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 02 Aug 2013, 03:41

In my opinion, the similarities between SK and the tenure process are superficial at best. I say this having served in a number of tenure committees over the years. While the rigor undertaken to vet and verify a person's credentials might have some common basis, the SK process is more like the procedure to nominate a "Distinguished" professor. While majority of faculty members on any campus are tenured in some way or the other, very few reach the Distinguished rank.

Here, we don't look for minimal standards to make tenure, but excellence. Not potential to be great, but established credentials that showcase their greatness.

In the case of SK, we would look for people who excel in performance, research, service and pedagogy. One can be weighed more strongly than the others depending on the candidate in question. But seniority (years of consistent service and public presence) is a highly prioritized factor. It is not an award given for flash-in-the-pan phenomena. Even geniuses wait their turn!

So, if we look historically from the time of Muthiah Bhagavathar to TL Venkatrama Iyer to GNB to Alathur to Ralapalli Ananthakrishna Sarma to KVN to Maharajapuram Santhanam to TNS (just a sample for every decade), you will see them having excelled in one or a combination of these factors. Some have been greater performers than teachers, some have been great vaggeyakkaras (including PS who is one of the greatest ever) but average performers, but in the end it all balances out.

Nick: SK is a very different award from all the other ones, which are given out of turn (as in no particular order) and the level of consideration/scrutiny is not the same. The reason you don't remember the other awards is because they don't matter as much (except to young artistes for whom it may be a career booster). No CM buff keeps track of who won Sangeetha kala nipuna or Nadha kala vipanchee (with all due respect to these awards).

For SK, seniority and established credentials are everything. Every society/fraternity is recognized for the rigor it shows in assessing its greats. We are looking for the same level of scrutiny in the establishment of the Sangeetha Kalanidhi and the President of this year's conference.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 02 Aug 2013, 06:22

Dear Mahavishnu,

In case you define SK as equivalent to Distinguished Professor,then none it should be none other than MADURAI GS MANI.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 02 Aug 2013, 07:47

One has to agree regarding Shri GS Mani..of what is stated by hnbhagavan..

read http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/06/01/stor ... 120300.htm

I read in another article about him thus " The man is a genius! His music is one of pure manodharma. On-stage innovation is his hallmark. The music comes straight from the heart, pours straight into the soul.

But singing is only one of his several musical talents. He has composed hundreds of songs, scored music for thousands of Tamil films, acted in a few, created plays, taught music all over the world."

http://rameshsaregama.blogspot.in/2010/ ... -mani.html

One more name that comes to mind is that of Shri SR Janakiraman...

A touch of subjectiveness cannot be avoided as it is human..MA is not different..

as people will not be able to see their own back...