Violin accompaniment - An analysis of the best

[uday_shankar]

Once at a Bangalore concert of Mali, Chowdiah came in sat in the front row and after 10 minutes got up with a dramatic flourish threw his angavastram around his shoulders showing clear disapproval of Mali and walked out. The Bangalore audience rooted to Chowdiah began shouting and yelling at Mali and poor Mali had to beat a hasty retreat. So much for Chowdiah's broadmindedness.

I haven't heard this story but knowing what I do about flute Mali's behavior patterns, I would give Chowdiah the benefit of the doubt. Of the two, he was by far a more reliable marker of human courtesy and grace, from all accounts. This of course, does not take away from the great enjoyment I derive from Shri Mali's flute playing.

[uday_shankar]

No use shutting oneself in a cocoon and pretend as if there should not be any humour or leg pulling.

One has a constitutionally guaranteed right to one's petty inanities in the name of "humor", but it is unreasonable to expect that everybody partake of it.

[radhasuryanarayanan]

It does warrant more postings.i agree with CACM.
Shri bhagawan mentions that LGJ performed with his children.
But in later years as already known due to various reasons GJR Krishnan &Viji perform duets.
In the case of Dr.Narmadha she performed with MSG (the epoch maker as mentioned),
You hv to agree on the vast difference when the epoch maker himself performs and the next generation performs.
The lists of violinists of the next generation had more to share from the mainstream performers.
Dr.Narmadha is unique performing both CM & KM concerts.
God's own country
Devil's own people.
But even every Devil deserves its due.
Violin techniques cannot be equated to gimmicks.
I am surprised for this ur usage that LGJ 's recital is free from gimmicks.
Plz let me know what exactly u mean by gimmicks.
LGJ never wanted his children to accompany and Lalgudy Viji started accompanying very recently .
You may refer print media concert records for the same.
Both MSG and Narmadha : did solo and accompaniments.
MSG was of the opinion as seen in his interviews that accompaninent gives challenges and also makes the accompanying artist to think faster and apply the mind.
So he encouraged Narmadha to pursue accompaniments paralell to solo concerts from her very early part of the career.
People know what an outstanding performer she is.
All musicians and rasikas know these facts.but how come this escaped ur kind attention.
There is no bias Nick but only facts.
The sugar coats melt and the musical capsules stay on.
Shrikant has highlighted requisites for accompanists ratings.
To me it seems more like a summary of what the great violinists did. Eureka.
As Cacm rightly puts it LGJ; MSG and TNK brought their own traditional flavour and made it their style..

IT DOES WARRANT more POSTINGS! I am not even writing anything because if I write that Kumbakonam Rajamanikam Pillai, Mayavaram Govindaraja Pillai, "Soundiah" Chowdiah, "Suswaram" Thiruvalangadu Sundaresa Iyer, Chittoor Gopalakrishnan, MC, R.K.Venkatarama Sastriar- for that matter any one who accompanied M.S.S. because Sri.T.Sadasivam made sure they were competent and good for their role-not to mention SEVERAL others WERE EQUALLY GREAT as Accompanists,
I can expect more brickbats than I am getting already...In my view LGJ, MSG, TNK BROUGHT a NEW DIMENSION to accompanying on the violin: LGJ in my view was one of the greatest MUSICIANS in MANY ASPECTS and DIMENSIONS of twentieth century Carnatic music, MSG was TECHNICALLY the BEST, TNK had the uncanny ability to bring out the greatness of anyone he accompanied. As I find the level of tolerance is low from my experience I just read & enjoy the opinions & writings of many here who after all are the custodians of the future of our music.
I also contend that there are many violinists of today who are EXCELLENT AS WELL AS IN OTHER INSTRUMENTS TOO.. VKV

The 3 great violinists established a masterly position to the violin solo and dedicated their time i must say ;their life time to make it so popular and by their performances convinced people on the greatness of the instrument..
They reached people thro accompaniments; thro solo violin concerts.
They had no bias and had an open mind to absorb and reproduce anything with their violins.
Their legendary output must not be reduced to such cheap levels just for the sake of Shrikant..the silent angel..


The rest of the world follow them.
Shrikant mentions on the applause.
While the vocalists body language attracts visual attention and convinces even the layman thro swaying movements EastWNSouth, all violinists talk thro their subtle violins with minimum gestures.
Kunnakudy ,legendary violinist was very well known for his action and crowd packed concerts.
I was totally moved when I heard LGJ Naajivadara.WOW.what a Bilahari.
Shri Bhagavan ; You are a great fan of LGJ.
I am a fan of all the three great violinists.
Shrikant seems to be controversial thirsty uses LGJ violin maestro the legend for his own expressions.
All violinists play their role in accompaniments to follow the main artist like a shadow.
Shri TNK in one of his recent intetview a couple of years ago mentioned the scope of timings to the accompaniments in earlier days and present days.
This was remarkable.
He clearly highlighted that during his own yesteryear concerts it was a healthy tolerance between vocalist and violinist with mutual respect.
Shrikant..plz tell me wr this s happening: i mean the tolerance.Leading vocalists do feel that they are the main artistes and the accompanying artistes are a sub division.
MSG sir said once in a crt...
It s team work.
The musical virtuosos Chembai;Madurai Mani Iyer; GNB and all the leading artistes of their generation encouraged their
Endaro mahanubavulu Andariki Vandanamu.
If Tyagaraja can be so modest y not the rest of the musicians.
All Musical concerts hv a message that music is Divine.
The moment music comments becomes politics cum
ego centric music is like a beautiful Tanjore Tambura without strings ; without Jiva.
Music lifeless....no salvation.
Music Bliss ....only Sat + chit + ananda.

[hnbhagavan]

Dear Radha,

I would like to clarify as CACM has pointed out that TNK/LGJ/MSG were epoch makers in violin playing.
Please listen to Lalgudi and Srimathi recordings available in sangeethapriya to know what I mean.I have equally enjoyed the violin duet concerts of MSG and Narmadha as well TNK and Viji Krishnan.Just for your information:
I wish to point out that GJR Krishnan and Vijayalakhsmi played with Lalgudi till 2006.GJR played with Lalgudi from 1975-2006.GJR and VIJI are on concert platform since the early 1980's.
AS VKV pointed out that all the three had different qualities.There is no question of bias and it is on record that Sri LGJ fought with Music Academy for prime slot for violin concerts and in 1965,his violin duet with Shrimati was scheduled.
I am aware that the the violin trinty had mutual respect and admiration.During Lalgudi 80 celebrations,Sri MSG was honored in the function at Music Academy.

[varsha]

One must be sensitive towards humour also. No use shutting oneself in a cocoon and pretend as if there should not be any humour or leg pulling.

I will not quarrell on this leaving you to your ways . This thread is about take aways for the likes of the OP . If you have something to say about TC other than those hearsay comments please feel free to educate us . As far as the connection between my sadness and humour is concerned I will stay in my cocoon knowing well that I shall fly one day as a butterfly , I derive my occasional sadness from the utterings of well known minds - One of whom , famously said
The soul is born old but grows young. That is the comedy of life.
And the body is born young and grows old. That is life’s tragedy.
This thread is about folks who want to appreciate the likes of TC as early as possible in life.

[hnbhagavan]

Dear Radha,

I am surprised by your comments and it is obvious by your remarks GJR and Viji performing together is not held in high esteem by you.I should say that these are incidental and depend on the training imparted.It is creditable that they are performing since early 1980's.
There have been great violin trio concerts by LGJ ,GJR and Viji.One such concert was in 1997 at Bangalore Gayana Samaja.You want to conclude that only I am biased.
I agree that if i am biased towards LGJ,then it is for sure that your postings are biased towards MSG/Narmadha.
I would say that Sri MSG Suresh,MSG's son was a late introduction on stage and hence the combination of MSG and Narmadha continued for long.
I would like to inform you that i have never missed opportunities to listen to any of the trinty or for that matter present generation violinists.
As Nick suggested,there cannot be absolute comparisons and each one can have his/her preferences.But what is history cannot be ignored.

[venkatakailasam]

Unfortunately, in the enthusiasm,
We have forgotten about Parur greats..stretching for over a century when violin was first introduced in Hindustani Music in 1909 by Parur Sundaram Iyer. In 1916... The legacy of this Parur tradition has been carried forward MSA and MSg..
While appreciative language is used on MSG, no mention has been made of MSA and his brilliant sons..
Shri MA Sundereswaran
Shri MA Krishnaswamy
Shri MA Ananthakrishnan

He has concerts with four violins, including his three sons.
Listen here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oSOouridiE

Another notable omission is that of M Chandrasekaran..Oh! what a violin player is he!!

" Shri M. Chandrasekharan's connection with music was firmly established over 60 years ago, when he began playing the violin at the age of 11, after which he went on to accompany many great stalwarts in the field of Carnatic music. Deeply appreciative of the importance of not just the lyrics, but also its melody and bhava, the prolific violinist is known for his success in bringing out the subtlest of musical nuances. He is also considered an expert in the laya aspects, recognizing and adapting to intricate rhythmic patterns with ease and grace. Sri Chandrasekharan also presents vocal concerts, and sometimes sings along during his solo violin recitals" and also along with his daughter Barathi.... He has composed various musical forms in different languages, and has travelled the world performing, enthralling audiences all over. All with his physical difficulty..

It is sad that subjective decisions are thrust with out comprehensive consideration..

Not that I am not for the great trios mentioned by learned members above.....

objective look is more welcome for laymen like me..

[hnbhagavan]

Dear Venkat,

You are right.Sri M Chandrasekharan's accompaniment was highlighted by Sri KVN in one of the interviews given to SRUTHI.MS Anantharaman is also in Parur mould .
He and MSG have given duet concerts also.

[SrinathK]

So now can we have some links to Chowdiah's accompaniment so we can hear the music and do a bit of analysis for ourselves? Will the thread once again get some clear direction?

I don't wish to neglect any name, but first let's savour one artiste's music before going on to another. And if we want to discuss about artistes and all the gossip and attitude issues that go on, kindly open a "vambu" thread exclusively dedicated to that.

Coming back to TC, here's a video from a film he made starring Chembai and Palghat Mani Iyer, which is probably the only available video of his playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQtWVGAQwNQ

Chowdiah's swara playing is quite distinctive and I actually get the impression at times that his violin is singing the syllables of the swaras. Also he excels in playing a huge number of notes in a single bow. But towards the end he goes for the gimmick and uses a bow technique from left hand pizzicato to strike the string with the tip of the bow while playing kalpanaswaras and I think it still comes out well -- technically speaking it takes quite a bit of bow control to maintain an even bounce. I have seen that technique used in left hand pizzicato (plucking) where in addition to plucking the string, the bow strike also creates a sound very similar to plucking.

And speaking of acoustics, from what I can hear in the video, Chowdiah's violin actually sounded ok without the mic -- acoustics attenuates out harsher sounds with distance. The problem however would be when a mic is actually placed next to such a violin or what the musicians themselves on stage heard, which would be very different from what the audience would have heard.

Actually in large halls with significant reverb, a sharp edge in one's bowing actually helps articulation by allowing the notes to be heard quite distinctly (otherwise it could sound like a "mish-mash" of echoes), therefore all western concert violinists actually try to deliberately sound scratchy in a hall otherwise the sound would not carry. For example here's actually a case study of how two different people heard the same violinist sound completely different when a) listening from the stage and b) in the balcony. There's a reason why the cheap seats are often next to the stage in such halls.

http://www.freemantlemusic.com/15bHeifetzUpClose.pdf

From what I have heard of Strads and Guarnerius violins, they actually have a tendency to produce "edgy" sounds up close and I have read that a violin that sounds too sweet under the ear will hardly be able to project, something very important when playing without a mic. In some western solos I have seen the mic at least 6-8 feet away from the violin in question and high up in the air rather than being placed right next to the bridge.

Chowdiah used 3 very closely spaced pairs of strings tuned 1 octave apart and it always sounded like he was playing octaves on his violin. This would (if I remember the physics right) increase the intensity by a factor of 4x.

There's also this concert of GNB with Chowdiah in Mysore 1957. I own one copy of the concert and there too Chowdiah was in fine form. There is also a wonderful Tamadam En Swami (in Thodi) in my private collections and Chowdiah plays some superb phrases in his reply to GNB's alapana and kalpanaswaras -- I'll share it once I find it. As I do not have much Chowdiah I hope someone can upload more of his accompaniment.

[Shyamala Rangarajan]

This is in response to some posts regarding Ganesh & Kumaresh as accompanists.

Even though Ganesh & Kumaresh have been soloists from the beginning, they have also accompanied vocalist & instrumentalists, on some rare occasions. Here are the links to Ganesh accompanying Flute Baskaran, some time in 1989.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zswQw5xdD8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sWH4VNnEYA

Ganesh has accompanied vocalists like Semmangudi, Maharajapuram Santhanam, Hyderabad Brothers, Trichur Ramachandran, TVG.

Kumaresh has accompanied vocalists like Seshagopalan, Trichur Ramachandran, TVG - again on rare occasions. Ganesh is a top notch vocalist also and he has given number of vocal concerts and Kumaresh used to accompany Ganesh on violin on such occasions.

[Rsachi]

Chowdiah accompanying Manakkal Rangarajan
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... al#p232184

[Rsachi]

I request Varsha to upload the Manakkal Rangarajan recordings as it will be very interesting for new listeners.

[venkatakailasam]

Deleted

[hnbhagavan]

All the vidwans,we discuss in the forum are much more knowledgeable and definitely,I am not qualified to comment.It is my good fortune to have enjoyed this great music.
But the facts should not be distorted as a rasika mentioned that GJRK and Vijayalakshmi did not perform with Sri Lalgudiji.Records show that GJRK played with Lalgudi during 1975 - 2006.It is another matter that he was able to train his siblings and they are performing since early 1980's.
Madam Narmadha is like wise very senior having accompanied Sri MSG from late 70's.
To me GJRK,Vii as well as Narmada have performed on the stage for almost 35 years now.

[cacm]

"kittappa"I feel sad whenever I read the word Soundiah or about that Ariyakudi Joke - searching for more strings .....
How easy it is to decry . Appreciating takes so much more effort

Indeed. Petty and inane so-called "wit" has always been highly rated and widely quoted in Chennai's Carnatic circles.

.......IN MANY INSTANCES MOSTLY MISQUOTED.

'Soundiah' was the name given to Chowdiah by GNB. Ariyakkudi and many others were aghast at TC's experiments with multiple strings. They rightly averred that TC was being insensitive towards not only their music, not only to his own violin play but to CM itself. Jokes, humour were all part and parcel of CM. There is nothing to feel sad about here. One must be sensitive towards humour also. No use shutting oneself in a cocoon and pretend as if there should not be any humour or leg pulling.........
They BOTH (Ariyakudi & G.NB.) both CLEARLY WERE ADMIRERS OF T.C. & plainly STATED at that time they said these comments that they meant it clearly as jokes. They did not say anything in public about multiple strings etc. Any one who ha listened to THE GNB-T.C.-MURUGABHOOPATHY MYSORE CONCERT one of GNB'S BEST esp. AFTER his HEALTH SETBACK will hear T.C. taking on a member of the audience in Kannada & Tamizh saying (not exact quote) " Sruthi serallae yenru sollarava yellarum NANNA KELUNGO INRAIKU". T.C. HAS NEVER IN MORE THAN 200 CONCERTS AT LEAST I have attended EVER did anything detrimental to any artist on stage. On the other hand when Vellore Ramabhadran was sustituted for Palani who fell ill in 1964 M.A. MMI CONCERT- HIS FIRST MAJOR SUCH APPEARANCE THO' HE HAD ACCOMPANIRED ALL THE MAJOR ARTISTS FOR SEVERAL YEARS ALREADY- MMI & T.C. STRUCTURED their singing & playing to make V.R. SHINE & HE BECAME AN INSTANT HIT AFTER THE CONCERT. V.R. has PUBLICLY STATED that MMI& T.C. made special efforts & that concert (Mohanam R.T.P.- BRILLIANT) was what made him count in MADRAS. I happened to be present at M.M.I'S House when a rasika urged MMI not to have T.C. as accompanist. MMI LITERALLY threw the person out of his house saying T.C. was his SENIOR and he will not ALLOW such statements made to him or in his presence.

MKR wrote

The amazing thing about TC was that he rose above all that pettiness--was one of the most large-hearted musicians of ANY era--both on and off the stage.Once in Bangalore(this was related to me by LGJ himself) when LGJ performed before a packed audience TC is supposed to have remarked to the audience"Is there anyone in this world who could have played like LGJ much to the embarassment of LGJ--

......MKR IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AS ALWAYS!

Once at a Bangalore concert of Mali, Chowdiah came in sat in the front row and after 10 minutes got up with a dramatic flourish threw his angavastram around his shoulders showing clear disapproval of Mali and walked out. The Bangalore audience rooted to Chowdiah began shouting and yelling at Mali and poor Mali had to beat a hasty retreat. So much for Chowdiah's broadmindedness.[/quote].........
THIS REFERENCE is I think wrong as I attended that particular concert. The violinist was R.R.Keshavamoorthy a T.C. Sishya (played on 7 strings also) who could not follow& REPRODUCE what Mali did on flute. He did walk away telling Mali YOU play these notes on violin. MALI actually switched places & played Violin( he was very good at it too!)& asked his disciple Dindugal. Natarajan to play Flute & the concert went on. If one wishes to PUT DOWN MALI there are instances in which MILD DISAGREEMENTS did happen in his concerts. For example there is a famous one in a Bombay concert where TNK complained Mali deliberately played things not reproducible on violin; TNK challenged Mali &proceeded to play things on violin that could not be played on flute. This is available on tape in their own voices! Also PMI in general liked to play in a fast tempo & mali in a slow one. In Viribhoni Mali slowed things to such an extent PMI just sat & did nothing. On enquiry he said at this pace there is neither a need for thalam or a necessity for mridangam. Mali lived in his own UNIVERSE of course it was an exciting & large one & at times he would dwell alone there....Bottom line TO ME IS ARTISTS of yesteryear had ENORMOUS GENIUS as well as ABILITY to ADMIRE their fellow GREATS!.....
I WISH MADRAS WOULD BUILD A CHOWDIAH HALL TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE THOUSANDS OF CONCERTS & ARTISTS HE UPLIFTED! Of Cousre Karnataka & other states are far superior when it comes to such things....VKV

[Rsachi]

VKV Sir,
Thank you for that info. about the Bangalore concert.

Incidentally R.R.Keshavamurthy was not a disciple of Chowdiah but was a fellow disciple under Bidaram Krishnappa. He was a rival of Chowdiah and made his own 7 stringed violin.
Just today I bought this Kannada Encyclopedia of Carnatic Music! Here is the page on R.R. Keshavamurthy (would someone like to translate, please?)

[venkatakailasam]

Sad to see the controversies...As Srikanth has said in a earlier post,

let the issues not related to assessment as such be discussed in a separate thread if it not inconvenient to

the mods..to open...

Sorry to note even an earlier one opened by Dr. vkv, is discontinued and again one opened by RSachi....

[cacm]

VKV Sir,
Thank you for that info. about the Bangalore concert.

Incidentally R.R.Keshavamurthy was not a disciple of Chowdiah but was a fellow disciple under Bidaram Krishnappa. He was a rival of Chowdiah and made his own 7 stringed violin.

THANKS FOR THE CORRECTION. I have heard him but when I was growing up in Madras V.Sethuramiah & R.R.K. were talked about as T.C.'S DISCIPLES & I just accepted that as I was in no position to verify anything! At least T.C. was SO TOWERING it was an easy pill to swallow! Can you elaborate if you can how his 7 string violin was different? I have attended talks where T.C. DISCUSSED the advantages of 7 strings violin & all the DISCUSSIONS obviously centred around T.C'S INVENTION! VKV

[girish_a]

Here is a video of the movie "Vani" in which Chembai sings a song in Shanmukhapriya. Chowdiah plays the violin and PMI the Mridangam. The movie was produced by Chowdiah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQtWVGAQwNQ

Don't miss the swaras.

[cacm]

I CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH for the great service you have done in giving a link to this clip. For those who have heard them in person (as well as those seeing this clip) like me it is a REVELATION of not just the DIVINE NATURE of the music produced by the group.It clearly shows why Chembai's voice was considered by PMI to be among the top three, PMI'S YET unmatched PRECISION, AND T.C'S BRILLIANCE & DEXERITY. Even tho' the clip is old the music this video PROJECTS their personalities perfectly too!....A great piece of our musical heritage! Thanks again, VKV

[Rsachi]

Dr. VKV,
RRK's 7 stringed violin : sorry I am not competent to explain its differences from Chowdiah's innovation.

About "Vani": Mr.Srikantiah, the author of the book on T. Chowdiah published by Mysore University, mentioned to me that the movie Vani was conceived and produced by Chowdiah to raise funds for a cause (temple project?) espoused by Chembai. He mentioned that Chowdiah lost a lot of money on the movie. He had enacted also the lead role in it.

[varsha]

https://archive.org/details/ChowdiahAIRTributePart1

AIR s tribute , broadcast in the National program of music .
As the OP wishes , I will keep putting up a few more tracks until he says next .
There is enough material for almost all violinists
Will be taking up M Chandru next .
Among the forthcoming tracks on TC is a duet with Doreswamy Iyengar

[venkatakailasam]

Hope I can post this one..
Bhairavi-Ragam_Tanam Pallavi...Veena and violin...

E SWARA015- Lalgudi Shri Jayaraman-Mysore Duraiswami iyengar veena With TVG on mrudangam....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-W_ENH47_c

[SrinathK]

Hey girish I shared that video a little earlier. I've also felt his violin sounds way better without close miking, which was what it was designed for. Was amused to see some of the tricks he does, but still nicely executed!

The 7 string violin was a very difficult one to play so Chowdiah often played his own phrases and avoided those sung by the vocalist if they couldn't suit the instrumemts. He also introduced gear tuned pegs to stabilize the tuning.

[venkatakailasam]

Here is a very rare one...( not linked to the topic of the thread on hand..)

Violin-parimala ranga pate-telugu-kamboji (pallavi)played by Narayanasami Iyer Pudukottai
Recorded in March 1905 at Madras by William Sinkler Darby & Max Hampe for the Gramophone & typewriter Ltd (later- Gramophone company - HMV) One of the first recordings made in South India..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCwRYw46 ... e=youtu.be

[venkatakailasam]

E SWARA-0019-INS-001-Parur brothers-MSG-MSA-Violin duet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYqSet41bxQ

There seems to be a Alapana by MSG also..??

[vasanthakokilam]

Here is a very rare one...( not linked to the topic of the thread on hand..)

Violin-parimala ranga pate-telugu-kamboji (pallavi)played by Narayanasami Iyer Pudukottai
Recorded in March 1905 at Madras by William Sinkler Darby & Max Hampe for the Gramophone & typewriter Ltd (later- Gramophone company - HMV) One of the first recordings made in South India..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCwRYw46 ... e=youtu.be

rare find indeed venkatakailasam. The tone of his violin is quite different.

Vikram Sampath's site has two more of his songs.

http://archiveofindianmusic.org/artist_sound_clips/154

(the second one is laeled 'Hamsadwani'. It sounds quite folkish. Is it Hamsadhwani?)

[Rsachi]

VKM,
good catch. Surely it is not Hamsadhwani - has prominent Dha and Ma....and only some Ni... definitely a folksy raga (Jinjhuti-ish)

[kittappa]

The concert was a violin concert of Mali's in 1956. My grandfather had attended that concert. Mali's violin play was so entrancing, full of sruti shuddham and sublime that Chowdiah feared that his reputation in Karnataka would nosedive. He therefore behaved as he did. The audience shouted and heckled Mali and asked him to take up and play the flute. Someone thrust a flute in his hands and he played. Many who attended that concert can testify to this unsavoury happening. According to many rasika of those times Mali had no equal in violin play, none including Papa, Rajamanikkam Pillai or Dwaram or Chowdiah or LGJ, TNK, MSG etc could ever imagine the kind of quality that Mali exhibited on the violin.

[varsha]

http://chowdaiahandparvati.blogspot.in/ ... -mali.html

[uday_shankar]

According to many rasika of those times Mali had no equal in violin play, none including Papa, Rajamanikkam Pillai or Dwaram or Chowdiah or LGJ, TNK, MSG etc could ever imagine the kind of quality that Mali exhibited on the violin.

Why not mridangam and vina ! According the same mysterious rasikas, Palghat Mani Iyer, Palani Subramania Pillai and others couldn't even imagine that kind of mridangam playing in their wildest dreams. As for vina, S Balachander was ready to bump him off in jealousy and envy. In fact, Mali is Krishnavatara himself and if not for his malicious detractors and McDowells, he would have led all of mankind to moksha.

[smala]

Krishnavatar.

Geniuses and brain haemorrhage.
Geniuses and eccentricity.
Geniuses and seclusion.


All of the above : Malli.

[venkatakailasam]

mali holding violin...

[venkatakailasam]

There seems to be a similar incident involving Chembai..

" Conflict In Chettinad [1936]

The place - Kottaiyur in Chettinad. The occasion - a wedding. Chembai was giving a performance with Mysore T. Chowdiah (violin), Palakkad Mani lyer (mridanga) and Pudukkotai Dakshinamurthy Pillai (kanjeera) as his sidemen. When there was a pause in the proceedings, a prominent person stood up and said the guests assembled desired to hear Chowdiah play solo. The violinist could not find any reaction on Chembai's face. He continued to sing and the sidemen performed with him.

There was another interruption soon. Now there was a chorus demanding a solo performance from the Mysorean. Chembai and his cohorts continued to ignore the clamour. In the event, there was confusion and many of the guests began leaving, while some came near the platform and shouted.

Chembai now stopped singing and, with an air of insouciance, asked: "What is it you want, please?" The common response was: "We want Chowdiah to play the English Note!"

Whereupon, Chembai said: "That's all! Okay, I will conclude my concert in a few minutes and after that you can ask him to play for you what you want".

The chorus sang: "No! we want him to play now!"

Chembai spoke again now, quietly but firmly. He explained the tradition followed in music concerts and said that it was not the done thing for an accompanist to play a piece which the main musician had not taken up.

The angry audience was not mollified; if anything, the lecture seemed to have irritated them further. Some said other musicians had heeded similar requests made by them.

Chembai said that he could not oblige simply because others had done so. "I will now conclude the concert by singing the mangalam. You can then do what you want."

An angry man shouted Chembai would not ever again be invited to perform in the town. Chembai replied that he was not born to sing only for the people of Kottaiyur and that he was not very earnest to perform there.

The news spread Chembai had antagonised the people of Chettinad.

But, when tempers cooled, good sense prevailed. Members of the community soon decided to invite Chembai to sing at another function in the town. Bhagavatar again performed with the same set. It had ended well; and all was well.

http://chembai.com/chembaianecdotes.html

[varsha]

and said that it was not the done thing for an accompanist to play a piece which the main musician had not taken up.

Gosh ! How times change :-*

[pattamaa]

>>. Gosh ! How times change :-*

Time just started changing since last one year! expect more changes soon in sitting position etc

[venkatakailasam]

" Time just started changing since last one year! expect more changes soon in sitting position etc "

There seems to have been a misunderstanding between TC and Palani Subramania pillai in Chembai's concert..
" The first Chembai kutcheri in which Palani Subbudu participated as a sideman was in 1926. Thereafter he played for Chembai numerous times, until his premature demise in 1962. It appears Subbudu ran into a difficulty with violinist Chowdiah at one time. As a southpaw, he had to sit to the left of the vocalist, but Chowdiah objected to this - not once but many times. Chembai, however, backed Subbudu.

He told Chowdiah he would realize the correctness of this arrangement one day.

His words came true some years later. The backing Chembai gave Subbudu manifested itself in a remarkable manner during a 1941 performance in Bombay. Bhagavatar made room for as many as four tanis, or percussion solo interludes, during the concert. According to Subbudu, Chembai instinctively knew the role the sidemen could play in making a concert a success."
These are there always and are as old as when Concerts started in Sabhas...

[uday_shankar]

Chowdiah used 3 very closely spaced pairs of strings tuned 1 octave apart and it always sounded like he was playing octaves on his violin.

Yes but there's a peculiar imbalance in his use of octaves which gives a strange effect like "Shepard tones" if you listen closely. I can see why he did it...So lets beging at the beginning (BTW, I haven't seen Chowdiah in action, the video posted too grainy to make detailed observations, so all of this is merely by listening carefully):

The violin's G-D-A-E strings are tuned as S1-P1-S2-P2 in CM (ignoring variations by Smt. Narmadha such as P1-S1-P2-S2). Also, the strings decrease in gauge in that order. Also, the last string (E string) is a plain steel string while the others are wound strings. From this starting point, Chowdiah seems to have striven to boost volume as well as bring that unique octave tone by pairing the P1, S2 and P2 strings with their octave, closely spaced so that he could bow and stop in pairs. The last string, S1 was left by itself and Chowdiah rarely played it anyway.

Now comes the interesting part...should the additional string for each pair be tuned one octave up or down ? Chowdiah did it as follows:

1) For the P1 string, he chose to tune the pair DOWN by an octave, choosing a heavy gauge (possibly viola?) string.

2) For the S2 string, the main Sarani, he chose to tune the pair UP by an octave, possibly using a string of the same gauge as the E string.

3) For the P2 string, the main panchama, he chose to tune DOWN by an octave. The reason is obvious...one octave up from the E string would sound too shrill.

So the final configuration is as follows:

1) S1
2) P0-P1
3) S2-S3
4) P1-P2

The main sets of playing strings are 3) and 4) above and one can immediately see the anomaly that leads to the "Shepard tone" effect. While the Sarani is paired with it's higher octave, the Panchama is paired with its lower octave. This was poor Chowdiah's great conundrum which with his great vidwat and panache he bravely carried on. Another problem for Chowdiah was that the inherent divergence of the strings made the double stopping harder as he went up the finger board. Still he managed gamely all the way to mel Panchama on the Pa pair without difficulty.

I would have loved to work with Chowdiah to try to "solve" these problems . Sadly, the seven string innovation is all but dead because the orthodoxy has decided that one should not tamper with the ancient, sastric, vedic Indian instrument called the "vayalin" introduced to the pristine art form called Carnatic music by Baluswamy Dikshithar in the ancient days of circa 1830 AD.

This would (if I remember the physics right) increase the intensity by a factor of 4x.

Not really. Also, a word of caution about mixing intensity and the psychoacoustic perception of loudness. So here's a quick primer...

Acoustic pressure p is analogous to voltage V and hence power P is proportional to its square. But you can't reduce that to saying that the intensity increases by a "factor of 4x". It's a little more complicated. When you add a string, ignoring other effects, you are not increasing p because each string vibrates at the same original amplitude and hence radiates a pressure wave with the same peak or RMS value. Each of these pressure wave have the same power so you're basically doubling the power. However, it doesn't end there either. Power is measured in dB with reference to some reference ambient noise level. Let us assume that the power of the ambient noise is P0. Now recall that dB is calculated as 10log(power ratio) or 20log(pressure or voltage ratio). So we have:

Intensity of 1 string (dB) = 10logP/P0 (1)
Intensity of 2 strings (dB) = 10log2P/P0 (2)

Now recall that logAB = logA + logB

Therefore, splitting equation (2) appropriately,

intensity of 2 strings (dB) = 10logP/P0 + 10log2

Plugging in the value of 10log2,

Intensity of 2 strings = intensity of 1 string + 3dB

But wait...a 3dB increase in intensity says nothing about the psychoacoustics of loudness perception. Empirical studies have shown that on average, the human mind perceives a doubling of loudness for every 10dB increase in acoustic power.

So bottom line: Chowdiah's pairing of strings will increase the perception of loudness by about 30-35%.

ERRATA
In the interest of accuracy, please note that the word "power" is used loosely above. For example, "power" is not measured in dB, it's measured in Watts. However, what I mean is a power ratio.

[venkatakailasam]

I am unable to comprehend whether TC who seems to have had no formal education..

can build so much complex mathematical calculations in to the system…

These can be attained only by constant practice ( “ asura Sadhakam “) and

keen observation of cause and effect…as well as trail and error…

[uday_shankar]

venkatakailasam,
The math is not "complex" by any stretch of imagination . However, the intention of my post was to clarify something posted by SrinathK and not to suggest that Chowdiah used the math. That is an unfortunate misreading on your part. To give you an analog that may help...the mridangam was built by craftsmen for millennia using traditional empirical methods but C.V.Raman wrote an analytical, "mathematical" paper on it. Similarly, Chowdiah did something intuitively while we try to put it in some analytical framework. Get it ?

BTW, as for myself, I actually like working with my hands to build musical instruments while keeping the math in sight to provide a little bit of analytical markers along the way.

[venkatakailasam]

US..I understand...thank you..

[alpajnani]

....
So the final configuration is as follows:

1) S1
2) P0-P1
3) S2-S3
4) P1-P2

The main sets of playing strings are 3) and 4) above and one can immediately see the anomaly that leads to the "Shepard tone" effect. While the Sarani is paired with it's higher octave, the Panchama is paired with its lower octave. This was poor Chowdiah's great conundrum which with his great vidwat and panache he bravely carried on. Another problem for Chowdiah was that the inherent divergence of the strings made the double stopping harder as he went up the finger board. Still he managed gamely all the way to mel Panchama on the Pa pair without difficulty.

I would have loved to work with Chowdiah to try to "solve" these problems . Sadly, the seven string innovation is all but dead because the orthodoxy has decided that one should not tamper with the ancient, sastric, vedic Indian instrument called the "vayalin" introduced to the pristine art form called Carnatic music by Baluswamy Dikshithar in the ancient days of circa 1830 AD.

......

Acoustic pressure p is analogous to voltage V and hence power P is proportional to its square. But you can't reduce that to saying that the intensity increases by a "factor of 4x". It's a little more complicated. When you add a string, ignoring other effects, you are not increasing p because each string vibrates at the same original amplitude and hence radiates a pressure wave with the same peak or RMS value. Each of these pressure wave have the same power so you're basically doubling the power. However, it doesn't end there either. Power is measured in dB with reference to some reference ambient noise level. Let us assume that the power of the ambient noise is P0. Now recall that dB is calculated as 10log(power ratio) or 20log(pressure or voltage ratio). So we have:

Intensity of 1 string (dB) = 10logP/P0 (1)
Intensity of 2 strings (dB) = 10log2P/P0 (2)

Now recall that logAB = logA + logB

Therefore, splitting equation (2) appropriately,

intensity of 2 strings (dB) = 10logP/P0 + 10log2

Plugging in the value of 10log2,

Intensity of 2 strings = intensity of 1 string + 3dB

But wait...a 3dB increase in intensity says nothing about the psychoacoustics of loudness perception. Empirical studies have shown that on average, the human mind perceives a doubling of loudness for every 10dB increase in acoustic power.

So bottom line: Chowdiah's pairing of strings will increase the perception of loudness by about 30-35%.

ERRATA
In the interest of accuracy, please note that the word "power" is used loosely above. For example, "power" is not measured in dB, it's measured in Watts. However, what I mean is a power ratio.

Uday_Shankar - excellent analytical writeup. One thing I would like to clarify however is the P0 value you use (in the intensity comparison calculations) is not truly the same for the two strings. The predominant component of P0 is arguably whatever swara the main player is singing at that instant [and for arguments sake: + the hum of the sruti (which is "broadband") + any mridangam output (broadband lower on left side and S1 on the right) - which can be quite large in amplitude]. Hence, in the frequency domain, the "noise floor" for the two strings are different.....(given perception is frequency specific, we have to separate out the noise floor by frequency domain buckets)

In line with this it is a common technique to play an octave higher or lower if you want the violin to standout. Where Chowdiah's genius lies is that with this design he ALWAYS has a component that is higher or lower by an octave regardless of where the main singer was singing.

[uday_shankar]

Hence, in the frequency domain, the "noise floor" for the two strings are different...

Yeah, I know...I struggled with that for a minute but I just wanted to introduce the minimal quick and dirty analysis without getting deeper into the DSP stuff.

Where Chowdiah's genius lies is that with this design he ALWAYS has a component that is higher or lower by an octave regardless of where the main singer was singing.

Precisely ! This is what led him not to use two identical strings in unison. Octaves stand out uniquely. This also proves that Chowdiah's goal was more than just volume ( the usual "Soundiah" or "Sevudiah" nonsense quoted by idiots all over the Carnatic world).

[VijayR]

But wait...a 3dB increase in intensity says nothing about the psychoacoustics of loudness perception. Empirical studies have shown that on average, the human mind perceives a doubling of loudness for every 10dB increase in acoustic power.

So bottom line: Chowdiah's pairing of strings will increase the perception of loudness by about 30-35%.

Uday, very lucid explanation!!! Minor edit to accentuate your point... in fact, an increase of 3dB in intensity is not even 30-35% in perceived loudness. It is only about 23% in perceived loudness.

[varsha]

Bravo !!! Uday and the original Poster Srinath. I am reminded of a A PERSIAN FABLE
------
Sing a song of Glory, and you will be that Glory.
Nothing , are you , but a song ; And as you sing, You are.

You thought you were the teacher.
And you find you are the one who is taught.

You thought you were the seeker,
And you find you are the one who is sought.
---------------

[varsha]

https://archive.org/details/01VarnamKhamboji

This Violin_VeeNa DUET Was broadcast from ALL INDIA RADIO, MADRAS, in 1975.
Mysore_T_Chowdiah- Violin
V_DoreswAmy_Iyengar-VeeNa.
CN_MuthuswAmy-Mridhangam
4.BengaLUru_KS_Manjunath-Ghatam

Recording seems to have begun a few seconds after the broadcast started and the last item abruptly ends but enough of KAmAch is there to enjoy!

[alpajnani]

......
Octaves stand out uniquely. This also proves that Chowdiah's goal was more than just volume ( the usual "Soundiah" or "Sevudiah" nonsense quoted by idiots all over the Carnatic world).

From what I have read/heard (anecdotal?) his intention was to make the violin "heard" against the full throated outputs from the likes of Chembai etc. and as you correctly point out his goal was definitely no just "volume"....perhaps more knowledgeable rasikas with more personal lines into Chowdiah could enlighten us (RSachi?).

That said, I have heard lesser players (who shall remain unnamed) try their hand at the 7 stringed approach and truly fail miserably.....an experience that has made me appreciate Chowdiah's skill (and perhaps the width of his fingers as well) quite a bit

One has to realize that he not only had to develop the 7 stringed mechanical setup, but had to also figure out a completely new Bani (particular gamaka's to avoid, fingering techniques etc.) so as not to make apaswaras. Note that when playing in two octaves, even a very small variation (even WITHIN the structure of a gamaka/bhriga) is easily amplified and stands out - particularly any slight variations in position between the two "1 octave" offset strings (which is why in certain schools of violin one is taught to play S1 on the S1 tuned string when trying to shift the index finger to the S2 position on the P2 tuned string - even a relatively new student can figure out if S2 is in the wrong position when S1 and S2 are played together!) AND each finger placement now has to be aligned not just at a single point on one string but along a line across the fingerboard - requiring much stiffer finger articulation which will limit range.

[Rsachi]

Alpajnani,
My middle name is Ajnani.
You may find more value in reading this:
: http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/12/14/stor ... 720300.htm
I do believe Uday has put the matter in excellent prospective.
Positives for adding and tuning the sympathetic strings as Chowdiah did:
1. Richer volume (30-50%)- we really have no way to check this via recordings. However when singers first protested, it was because of the loud volume.
2. Richer tone by producing higher and lower octave sympathetic vibrations - easy to understand since we get a richer tone in instruments like the sitar, chitravrena etc by additional strings any way.
Negatives:
1. Tough to play
2. Sense of apaswaras
3. Limitations on possible gamakas.

Someone clever solved a slew of problems by creating the mike system. But the cure has many other side effects, like unwanted loudness, harshness and distortion.

Perhaps the seven stringed violin is obsolete. But Chowdiah will always hold a special place in the history of Carnatic violin.

Let me close by saying that the pleasure that listening to Lalgudi and others has given me in my lifetime far exceeds the joy I got listening to Chowdiah. I did hear him live a dozen times in 50s and 60s in solo, vina violin combo and with big name vocalists. But then I am also an alparasika apart from being an ajnani.

[uday_shankar]

in fact, an increase of 3dB in intensity is not even 30-35% in perceived loudness. It is only about 23% in perceived loudness.

Gotta be careful with all the psychoacoustic stuff . It's a subjective evaluation that's already "linearized" in some way, so I made a conservative calculation, even if it might diminish my case.

Rsachi
We have not been discussing sympathetic strings here. We've been talking about Chowdiah's main playing strings. The sympathetic string version was the "19 stringed violin" that Chowdiah was supposed to have brought to some concert (7 playing + 12 sympathetic strings).

[uday_shankar]

One has to realize that he not only had to develop the 7 stringed mechanical setup, but had to also figure out a completely new Bani (particular gamaka's to avoid, fingering techniques etc.) so as not to make apaswaras. Note that when playing in two octaves, even a very small variation (even WITHIN the structure of a gamaka/bhriga) is easily amplified and stands out - particularly any slight variations in position between the two "1 octave" offset strings (which is why in certain schools of violin one is taught to play S1 on the S1 tuned string when trying to shift the index finger to the S2 position on the P2 tuned string - even a relatively new student can figure out if S2 is in the wrong position when S1 and S2 are played together!) AND each finger placement now has to be aligned not just at a single point on one string but along a line across the fingerboard - requiring much stiffer finger articulation which will limit range.

This is very important. One more thing to add (and then I have to sign out...crazy busy!) is related to the well-known fret and bridge position of guitars. When strings of different gauges, say tuned an octave apart, are pressed down on the fret board (or finger board in the case of the violin) there are small variations in the positions of the notes due to several physical characteristics. And it may vary from one string to another, height, etc...We encounter such problems routinely with chitravina, where the Sarani and Panchama are reinforced with the mandhara. Electric guitars often have individually adjustable bridges for each string, to address the problem. The problem gets accentuated as you proceed up the fretboard. This problem is probably the root cause for Chowdiah's difficulties with apashrutis from time to time in his last days. If he had lived longer, perhaps he would have designed a violin with individually adjustable bridges for each string . That would have greatly mitigated the problem.