Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 22 Jan 2016, 20:54

From a book (a century old)
IDEALS OF MUSICAL TEACHING
The old notion that the study of music should be for the production of a performer of music, has been well nigh replaced by the idea that the study of music is to enable the student to appreciate music and take part in its exquisite propaganda.
Of those who have performed this service for America there is one lady who has devoted many years to the dissemination of the ideas of
Leschitizky and Reiff on this important subject. Her pupils, numbered by thousands, are disseminating in middle America the notion that the true musician, like the true scientist,is one who dwells in spirit in a realm of idealism which he contacts in a mental and emotional way, 'a world in which he knows something of the rules of conduct and the criteria of life.
It is in these ideals, not in the products of technicians, that the great hope for humanity lies along artistic and aesthetic lines.
W, V-H,

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Feb 2016, 20:01

I am reminded of story. There was a dispute in the Court of a King. Two mothers were fighting about a baby - each one stated that she is the biological mother. The King could not come to any decision. There was a clever minister - like Birbal or Tenali Rama. He suggested that the baby should be cut into two pieces and one piece each given to the contesting mothers.

Hearing this, one mother kept silent; the other one cried out - "please, don't do that; give the baby to the other woman."

The minister looked at the King. The King understood that the woman who cried out is the biological mother.

Now, that is bhAva.

tyAgarAja would sing - kAmini vEshadhAriki sAdhvi naDatalu Emaina telusunA? (rAma nIyeDa - kharaharapriya)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Feb 2016, 20:42

Govindan,
It was King Solomon.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 01 Feb 2016, 20:43

arasi,
Thanks.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 03 Feb 2016, 11:54

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/asf5wxr ... _Ragas.mp3

No words for close to an hour .
Is this not CM.?
What I feel , is bhakti to me .Makes me speechless
CM
The ultimate truth

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Feb 2016, 12:48

Amazing stuff. Who are the artistes? KVN?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 03 Feb 2016, 13:13

will wait for a few more guesses.
will send u the name by email though

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Feb 2016, 13:16

Great indeed.

Kalyanaraman?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 03 Feb 2016, 14:11

nope. will wait for three more,excluding Sachi

to think that this happens in so many places , everyday

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 03 Feb 2016, 19:52

Sounds like somewhat younger TKG teaching someone.

It could also be R K Srikantan teaching his son?

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 03 Feb 2016, 20:36

The student sounds like NSG at times?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 03 Feb 2016, 20:41

negative
one left
clue: second half of the name ( not the one which stands for the place they hail from ) is the same as another amazing vidwan
both are not kalaidhis at Academy

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 03 Feb 2016, 20:52

tantalizing. the voice and mannerisms are so familiar yet hard to name (my bad).

If I may sneak in another guess, is it Sankara Iyer?

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 03 Feb 2016, 21:43

TRS? With the other vidwan being Pazhani Subramania Pillai?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 03 Feb 2016, 22:25

thanks folks
it was mayavaram rajam
wonderful is how i can describe this clip
cheers

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 04 Feb 2016, 05:27

GurugaLE, thank you from the bottom of my heart !!! A beautiful recording !

Mayavaram Rajam was my guess too though I was too timid/late to offer it up

But, honestly, i have heard very little of Mayavaram Rajam and never in person, so after hearing the clean and sonorous voice pegged at 2 1/2 kaTTai s'ruti (kambi padamAna sAreeram), I was going throuh a neti-neti process -- not quite like Ramnad Krishnan, not quite like early Nedanuri, not like early Puducode Krishnamurti, not quite like early TKG whose voice in teaching someone Todi in Bombay in the 60s/70s is nothing short of amazing (on an absolutely horrible recording though), not like Tanjavur Sankara Iyer which is very sonorous but raspier, kind-of/sort-of like MaruttuvakkuDi Rajagopala Iyer but I have only heard him sing kritis not free flowing alapanas like this and that too only at 1 kaTTai s'ruti etc...

when your hint of the non-Kalanidhi duo sharing the same name and my search for Mayavaram Rajam on youtube led me to his Shanmukapriya which was also at around 2.5 kaTTai ! and that clinched it.

I swear that if we had an early 1920 voice of Mudikondan Venkatarama Iyer it would probably be like this.

The clean akAra voice without any artifice, the utter lack of any "intellectual", "urban", "scholarly conceit that I read into the singing - are all very beautiful !!!

-Srini.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Feb 2016, 08:02

Unlettered as I am in 'vyavahAram's, it's the ear which comes to the aid in appreciation. Better qualify it as inner ear since the outer ones are failing...

KVN was a quick guess of course, but soon knew it wasn't.

Srini,
Good to hear from you. Your analysis makes me want to go back and listen to the whole thing. Not only do you know your stuff--your rasanai doesn't leave you when you examine the music. 'akku vERu ANi vERu' --analyzing as if CM is a pure science is not your way.The aesthetic experience remains intact in the process.

Now I need to go back and listen to the whole thing. Thanks to you and to Varsha for bringing it to us in the first place...

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 04 Feb 2016, 09:42

The clean akAra voice without any artifice, the utter lack of any "intellectual", "urban", "scholarly conceit that I read into the singing - are all very beautiful !!!

So was your post

without any artifice, the utter lack of any "intellectual", "urban", "scholarly conceit .......

I was blessed to have Sankara Iyer as my neighbor for several years , in the 80s

He taught me , an outsider then , to appreciate CM.... Kumbakonam vethalai too
Through countless sessions which ran like these.Followed by listening to his idol Amir Khan.
On days he got late for his concerts , I ferried him on my bajaj chetak!!!
There were days when I would see Dwaram Mangatayaru or Tirupprkadal walking in as I started for office.And I would decide to skip office to eavesdrop.Musical outpourings without a beginnig , without an end , without a plan..
The world in which musicians live OMG
early Ramnad Krishnan, early Nedanuri, early Puducode Krishnamurti, early TKG...all such delightful strands of a condition of mind
Days just like these.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 04 Feb 2016, 13:17

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/stgx3sa ... raniye.mp3
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/0oa7dc8 ... raniye.mp3
pl identify this song for me
raga composer....

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 04 Feb 2016, 13:33

The raga is Jyotiswaroopini...don't know any compositions in this raga and certainly not this one. Hope the raga ID helps in your sleuthing...

pperumal · Post by **pperumal** » 04 Feb 2016, 13:36

Thanks varsha for the class recording.
Do we know who the student is pls?

PP.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 04 Feb 2016, 14:02

no idea of student:(
thanks citravenu u sh

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Feb 2016, 14:18

Varsha,
I haven't heard this one before. Loved the ease with which it is sung, and the voice.

On other hand, Koteesvara Iyer's gAnAmuda pAnam has been popular even with old timers! How exotic a rAgA like this sounded then!

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 04 Feb 2016, 18:59

http://stotraratna.sathyasaibababrother ... g/a133.htm

this link says it is NS Chidambaram, but the ragam is not given right.
MMI's ganamudapanam is a joy. Who is the artist singing paripooraniye?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 04 Feb 2016, 19:27

Mayavaram Rajam

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 04 Feb 2016, 21:20

Thank you for posting the clips today and yesterday. I'm hooked onto the ragas clip. Cant stop!

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 04 Feb 2016, 21:58

I am yet to listen to the recordings - I look forward to listening to them soon.

I wanted to say Thank you for your generosity, Varsha avare!

I also wanted to say I liked Srini Pichumani's post #91, especially "GurugaLE, thank you from the bottom of my heart !!! A beautiful recording !"
(Srini, I presume you have some good kannaDiga friends from whom you picked up that GurugaLE part!)

Indeed Varsha avaru is a Guru - I have learned much from him in the last 10 years (Yes! I joined the Forum in 2006 summer!)

Sreeni Rajarao

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 04 Feb 2016, 22:07

Thank you for posting the clips today and yesterday. I'm hooked onto the ragas clip. Cant stop!

I discovered only yesterday
Cant stop!

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 04 Feb 2016, 22:24

can't get past the first raga sometimes! 'Enneramum' ketkalaam... Please share more of these

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Feb 2016, 23:56

N S Chidambaram is the composer. Lyric:
Paripuraniye Manonmaniye
By N. S. Chidambaram

Pallavi

Paripooraniye, manonmaniye,
Papa vinasiniye, yen thaye

Anupallavi

Parivodu inda parinai yellam,
Paripalithu idum para Shakthi Om

Charanam

Nithya niranjani nirmala Kalyani
Neela mani jaya geervani,
Sathiya jnana Jyothiswaroopini,
Sama rasa jnana sunadavinodhini

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Feb 2016, 07:21

Thank you Sachi for the swiftness with which you brought the lyrics!

We could do it diacritically so that mistakes are not made by tamizh and non-tamizh singers.

Interesting, how more rAgA names happen in the song

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 05 Feb 2016, 09:12

Thanks for identifying

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Feb 2016, 10:50

Any biography of Mayavaram Rajam available? Finding mostly audio clips on google and wikipedia article on his Guru.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 05 Feb 2016, 12:30

If Manambuchavadi Venkatasubba Ayyar had the credit of moulding the 'Pancha Ratnas' (five gems
of eminent musicians), Simizhi had his disciple-gems in Mudicondan Venkatarama Ayyar, Tiruvarur
Rajayee, Mayavaram Rajam, Flautist Rajarama Ayyar, Mayavaram Govindaraja Pillai and Harmonist S.S.Mani.

From A GARLAND
If a couple of concerts will assuage pain of failing to find more , let me know

you can expect an elaborate kannadagowla kriti to supplement the raga inputs

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Feb 2016, 15:31

Another couple lines from the foreword (of Another Garland):

To all future time, not only doth restore
His life, but makes that he can die no more."

vilomachapu · Post by **vilomachapu** » 05 Feb 2016, 17:45

If Manambuchavadi Venkatasubba Ayyar had the credit of moulding the 'Pancha Ratnas' (five gems
of eminent musicians)

Who were these Pancharatna disciples of Manambuchvadi, please?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 05 Feb 2016, 20:05

'Five Gems' of Manambuchavadi Venkatasubba Ayyar:
Maha vaidyanatha Ayyar
Patnam Subramania Ayyar
Tyagaraja, grandson of Tyagaraja
Sarabha Sastri and
Fiddle Venkoba Rao were the top disciples of Venkatasubba Ayyar.
Source A Garland
N RAJAGOPALAN

vilomachapu · Post by **vilomachapu** » 06 Feb 2016, 17:50

Sarabha Sastri

He's the problem. Sarabha Sastri was born only in 1870 (died 1902 at age 32). I wonder whether Manambuchavadi would have lived that long, i.e., at least until 1885 or so to teach Sarabha Sastri. Manambuchavadi was besides being a disciple of Thyagaraja was his own aunt's son, so he might not have been very much younger to Thyagaraja. (1767 to 1847)

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 06 Feb 2016, 22:14

Rich classical silky brigga voice. Somewhat like Ramnad Krishnan. Thanks Varsha for the treat

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 08 Feb 2016, 05:20

Years ago I wrote an essay including the following paragraphs about bhakti in CM.

This was to justify a project called "New Directions in Indian Classical Music,"
which was commissioned by the San Francisco Foundation
and active from 2008 - 2010.

(Here's more about that: http://gautamtejasganeshan.com/newdirections.html, including the following disclamatory afterword - "Essentially, it was a project to render Carnatic music as free-improvised, "pure" music. As if the music needed freeing or purifying. Now "new directions" is no more, and some other directions prevail. But for your interest, and as a record, here's a bunch of info about it.")

--

"What originated as a spontaneous musical outpouring of bhakti ("devotion") now typically occurs as a recitation of centuries-old material that may or may not reflect the personal convictions of the musician, and especially may or may not be relevant to a diverse worldwide audience with every capacity to experience the same wonder and awe as Tyagaraja did, but perhaps with little affinity for Lord Rama, his ishta-devam, much less an ability to understand his understated poetry in the Telugu language. This can place an upper bound on the integrity of the performance, and sometimes makes self-important virtuosic vehicles out of paeans originally written with such humility, intelligence, and fervor.

The realities of the new global context for this (and all) traditional music strain the original cultural coherence of artist and audience, with the effect that the central aesthetic value of this music, its subtle expression of universal human sentiment, is difficult for many new listeners to discover within the disorientation of "This is not my music" or "I don't speak that language" - especially in the case of Carnatic music, which has struggled to attain wider appeal with its focus on vocal repertoire in regional languages (even though it's awesome, right?)."

(That last parenthetical links to:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/carnatic/cmc.html)

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 08 Feb 2016, 09:26

Several issues are raised there:

>>"diverse worldwide audience"
Before we simply say diverse it becomes pertinent to examine what kind of diverse audience we are talking about - what are their belief systems if any - and what are the tenets behind those belief systems etc. That will take us beyond just talking about this as just music!

>>"But perhaps with little affinity for Lord Rama, his ishta-devam":

Continuing from the above it becomes necessary to examine why this would present a problem? what ishta-daivam means? etc etc!!

The aesthetics of Carnatic music is so valuable and beautiful - yes - that we are made to wonder why it should not reach a lot of people. But it seems we assume that every other music of yore has the ability and reach to affect anybody at random.

You can see what the West is doing : http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/ ... ition.html

The military - industrial complex will do what it takes at home - but will run liberal arts programs in ivy-leagues to confuse the rest of the democratic population!- can we call it aestheticization of power?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 Feb 2016, 15:41

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote:
This can place an upper bound on the integrity of the performance, and sometimes makes self-important virtuosic vehicles out of paeans originally written with such humility, intelligence, and fervor.

"integrity of the performance" sounds like an oxymoron.

The realities of the new global context for this (and all) traditional music strain the original cultural coherence of artist and audience, with the effect that the central aesthetic value of this music, its subtle expression of universal human sentiment, is difficult for many new listeners to discover within the disorientation of "This is not my music" or "I don't speak that language" - especially in the case of Carnatic music, which has struggled to attain wider appeal with its focus on vocal repertoire in regional languages (even though it's awesome, right?)."

Yes. Some amount of effort is required of the listener.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 Mar 2016, 15:09

I just read in 'Violin Playing as I teach it' by Leopold Auer:
"Whenever I had an opportunity of hearing Joachim play, I always felt as though he were a priest, thrilling his congregation with a sermon revealing the noblest moral beauties of a theme which could not help but interest all humanity."

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 22 Mar 2016, 08:59

kvchellappa wrote:I just read in 'Violin Playing as I teach it' by Leopold Auer:
"Whenever I had an opportunity of hearing Joachim play, I always felt as though he were a priest, thrilling his congregation with a sermon revealing the noblest moral beauties of a theme which could not help but interest all humanity."

The institutionalized faiths have inspired many to think outside the box and always think of separation. It is explained in first 3 - 5 minutes in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGL8SesIo6Y

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 24 Mar 2016, 20:25

@sureshvv

"integrity of the performance" sounds like an oxymoron.

I see what you mean, if you're pointing out that "performance" can mean "just for show," and hence inherently sort of fake (according to this view, i.e. not long on "integrity.") I take it this is roughly the same as Plato's grievance against poets & actors - that in not telling, or being able to tell, the truth (in comparison with philosophers), their doings are immoral.

Here, though, I meant performance more casually, like just a concert. So, "integrity of the performance," as I meant it, just refers to the "does the guy really mean it" factor, which I do think is a legible concept, and something worth considering.

Now, this essay overall I wrote many years ago, and probably wouldn't write it the same way now. So I'm not standing by all its statements with adamantine fervor. It's just food for thought at this point.

Yes. Some amount of effort is required of the listener.

Correct. You've gotta learn Chinese to appreciate the subtleties of Chinese poetry, no question.

But I think we can distinguish language fluency from aesthetic appreciation. Translation of literature, for instance, is not useless - on the grounds that "Well, people should just put in the effort to profit from reading the original only." The extreme version of this attitude is not found in Hinduism, I believe.

So, first of all, translation itself is an art worthy of being appreciated, as A. K. Ramanjuam would have it. (And meanwhile I re-emphasize that what I am doing is NOT translation. Unless, once again, we're speaking figuratively, like "translation of the experience of intuitively understanding the song text.")

And second, my original point was more that what is valuable about the music - that is, absolutely not "dumbed down" (as I take it you too are arguing for, in endorsing listener effort) - is sometimes not served by lyrics, especially when the lyrics are not understood, or even cared to be understood. I think on this point, taken in itself, I would have the support of half of rasikas.org.

And in fact I gave two years of concerts with no words at all, as a case in point.
A "performance" of the point, even.

(I encountered limitations, which are another topic perhaps.)

The point is, I don't think learning Telugu is necessarily part of the "effort" needed to understand CM. YES - understanding does bolster appreciation, no doubt, and in fact one could argue that only native speakers really get the full effect. I, for one, always learn the meanings of songs. And you know what I find? CM lyrics are a beautiful world of bhakthi and poetry, but once in a while the emperor is wearing no clothes! I don't consider them sacrosanct revelations from a trance - I'm pretty sure they're just basically hard work, artistry, and dedication. They have certainly evolved in being handled, for one thing. (sometimes improving, sometimes being lost.)

Bhakthi sometimes looks like a day job.
Just ask any parent, for example.

So anyway, more prattlings in a well from me...

- G

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 24 Mar 2016, 23:01

Thanks G. Appreciate the prattlings

Followed most of your response, except

Bhakthi sometimes looks like a day job.
Just ask any parent, for example.

May be you can elaborate. Being a parent my curiosity is piqued

Agree with most of what you write.

A carnatic performance is designed to move the rasika. A good performer uses all the tools at his/her disposal.
Being aware of the mood that is being evoked is a primary strength. The best performers are instinctively and
acutely aware of the the rasika's mind. I don't know where "integrity" fits in. It must. May be you can explain

Learning Telugu is not necessarily needed to understand CM. Even knowledge of the
ragas or talas is not required, Many rasikas are content with enjoying the melodic aspects and not curious about
the laya or lyrical aspects. But a good carnatic performance can press the right buttons to raise your awareness of the
beauty behind all of these aspects. CM is a bottomless well.

PS: I hope none of what I wrote discourages you. I appreciate your dedication to the art and your effort to make it your own,

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 25 Mar 2016, 01:46

sureshvv wrote:
Bhakthi sometimes looks like a day job.
Just ask any parent, for example.
May be you can elaborate. Being a parent my curiosity is piqued

Me too (parent.)

What I meant literally is that sometimes the "devotion" of being a parent takes the form of cleaning up messes and losing sleep, not necessarily always emotional raptures.

What I meant in context, by analogy, was that some people's hagiographic rear view mirror makes them think our saint composers were composing under the influence of some inscrutable source of inspiration, the method of accessing which must be lost in the sands of time, unavailable in our modern age, which is further descended into kali yuga, or something.

Whereas in fact I think mystical insight is timeless (i.e. available now too), and tends to stun its recipients with its utter ordinariness - basically that "This is it." As in, you want to write a timeless song? Do the work, just like it seems - no magical shortcuts. This is it. So, "de-mystifying" songwriting in CM, to me, does not mean underestimating the quality of the output, but simply acknowledging that it's not something only demigods are capable of.

Suppose Thyagaraja showed up at his Aradhana in Cleveland, for instance, or even Thiruvaiyar, for that matter. Don't you think one possible response he might have is "Why are you still just singing my songs predominantly? Why hasn't anybody else loved Rama as personally as I did and felt like writing lots of songs about it? I suppose this means I actually failed to convey the love I experienced, if nobody since has been as moved as I was to create because of it!"

I guess I'm responding in part to the tone I perceived in another comment elsewhere about the "meaningful and deep" lyrics in CM, which was posted in criticism of my own songs, as if that's it, the possibilities of meaning and depth were available only in the 18th century and are now foreclosed, or are only possible with respect to your ishta devam and not mine, etc.

sureshvv wrote: The best performers are instinctively and acutely aware of the the rasika's mind. I don't know where "integrity" fits in. It must. May be you can explain

Or, maybe we should ask the "best performers" instead.

sureshvv wrote: PS: I hope none of what I wrote discourages you. I appreciate your dedication to the art and your effort to make it your own.

Absolutely not. Your comments are well-taken. And to be quite blunt, I'm not doing it primarily for your sake anyway. "Janaranjakam" ought to be a byproduct, and that too there is no such thing as "Sarvajanaranjakam."

(I hope you know what I mean and take this in the right spirit.)

- G

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Mar 2016, 04:14

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote: Me too (parent.)

What I meant literally is that sometimes the "devotion" of being a parent takes the form of cleaning up messes and losing sleep, not necessarily always emotional raptures.
- G

Sort of what love is - work! As this song eloquently says: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h_y9F5St4j0

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 25 Mar 2016, 07:37

Opinions are Opinions as such. So are impressions and views are ones own. The artist should sing to once own satisfaction; trying to please others IMO is waste of effort. Listeners enjoyment must be the bye product.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 25 Mar 2016, 08:02

The whole issue of bhakti and a musician being expected to be a bhakta in order to deliver the song in the way it is intended by the composer, is totally wrong. There are but only nine rasas of which the most dominant rasas in any musical system is kAruNyam -SrngAram. There are very few compositions in other rasas which have withstood the time - they are much momentary in nature. The all-pervading karuNA rasa be it in Indian, Christian, Sufi etc is undeniable.

All that the artist is expected to do is to bring that emotion to the fore in the lyrics. He is not expected to be a bhakta.

It is all nice to talk of global audience. But basic human emotions and their response has not undergone an iota of change. Therefore,let us not deride the ever-lasting appeal of karuNa rasa.

CM drift away from bhakti - is a totally misconceived topic. CM artists may or may not have inclination to go by the core concept of 'communication' through the form of music. All the talk of 'those who want lyrics, let them go to bhajana', is nice.
In Sanskrit, there are two terms - lakshana, lakshya. Today's CM is just lakshana music and nothing to do with lakshya. In our days we used to taught by Tamil Pandits about the misapplication of language - 'sukkumi-laguti-ppili' (சுக்குமி-ளகுதி-ப்பிலி) - Today's CM musicians just belong to this category- there may be exceptions - they may please pardon me.

Somewhere else, someone questioned as to how ashThapadi came to be sung in musical circuits. I responded that ashThapadi is one of the most famous items in bhajana sampradaya and that it could have 'percolated' to CM from there. Yes, CM is not the master - it is but the parrot. The master has always been - and will always be elsewhere to pour out their hearts in search of that 'anurAga' - the universal love.