Is CM drifting away from Bhakthi?

[vgovindan]

I am a simple man educated in Tamil medium - studied upto SSLC - and learnt English the hard way over the next 50 years. Therefore, I do not understand the Queen's English - and not been able to make out whether people are talking straight or not. Pardon my ignorance.

If people want to ridicule what I said, well it is up to them - no regrets. But I mean what said about the tempo and boisterousness of the version of kRti because I understand the depth of it and the mood of the composer when he would have composed and sung it.

It has nothing to do with the mythology attached to it because I go by the wordings of the kRti.

[shankarank]

Sri V Govindan - no queens English nor Srinivasa Sastri silver tongue. I am also arguing from a very naive perspective. My feeling and wish is that we both should sit under the same umbrella and take what we look for from the music.

Rest of any tone was standard forumese! a new language! said for effect and no ulterior intentions.

Namaskarams!

[munirao2001]

Whether, we talk science or vedanta, we deal with a world of appearance and the 'reality' is elusive to our naked senses, appliances or intellect. To think that bhakthi alone is irrational or a burden seems to be as prejudiced as that not believing in god is a sin.

- KCSir's.

Vedanta teaches goal of intelligent being, purusha, Vidwan & Vidushi-bhakthi, devotion can obtain even if avoids the effects by shunning the occasion of karma, activity (keertana sense of mind) even when the power of karma, activity continues; just as with fire the effect of burning does not follow if wood is withdrawn, though the fire still possesses the power of burning. It is impossible to avoid the occasions (keertana) altogether because they too are connected potentially (with soul/pure intelligence). "Nimittanam api shakthi-lakshanena sambhandena sambad-dharanam atyanta parihara asumbhavat"-Badarayana, Brahma sutra, p.673, 9.
Consummation of liberation-keertana bhakthi, follows the attained qualities of eternal, immortal (archives of recordings giving recall pleasure); pure (strict conformance to the lakshya and lakshana); wise (delivery of pleasure); free (from truth of belief and faith). Vidwan, Vidushi of this nature (attained) does action with truth of fact, fact of his realization (by reason and logic). Thus the activity of Vidwan, Vidushi dependency on the qualities, upadhis, limitations, ascribed to them (upadhi-dharma-adhyasena) and not on their own nature, nature where a duplicity exists as it were, they see the other, embraced by the self of knowledge, that duality of bhakthi of nama, rupa (name and form/body) of sahithya bhavam, bhakthi; bhakthi of anama, nirakara (beyond name, emotion, without form/body, abstract). Performing keertana in lyric is with bhakthi as a matter of vasana, appearance only, unreal, not real in the full sense, upalabdhi, apperception, aham-pratyaya-vishaya with raga-dvesha-adi-dosha-prayuktah, State of Being connected with defect like, love and hate.

munirao2001

[SrinathK]

shankarank You can see the limits of intellect in the postings of our esteemed member Sri Muni Rao - I have been reading since the Cherished Goals thread - and I don't see much of conversation between him and others!. Many times he loses me before the sentence completes.

He is a very knowledgeable soul with the best intentions as far as I've read his writing content wise, but the real difficulty for some of us is his style. We come away thinking, "If only he could convey it in simple, easy to read sentences without so many terms". For easy communication, a single sentence should not try to convey too many things at once. More than one comma in a sentence = too complicated. In fact, I sometimes feel like I'm given a list of keywords with which I have to mentally construct the sentences.

You see therefore, that even when he pitches in with his insights, it's like no one even bothers to read, which is sad.

Additionally, a single line space between paras would make it much easier to read. For effective conversation, one sentence should talk about exactly one thing. Too much "jargon" also sends anything you have to say over your reader's head. I feel that one should not use any unknown terminology in conversation -- it makes your subject matter look far more complicated and alien than it really is.

Back to the topic, I feel a major problem here is the inability to connect deeply with the lyric. It takes special effort and only those musicians have taken the trouble to do so (even to the point of learning additional languages) talk about how important the lyrics are. For others, it may just be <cough> "baggage" that comes with the music. All said and done, if one were to take the trouble, one would find that the lyric is no less a creation of genius than the melody.

There is another issue of just how much of those lyrics resonate with your experience. We have to admit that for all the reverence we have for our composers, it is their experience and beliefs talking whereas at some point you want to express YOUR experience. Which is why the themes of @arasi's compositions, which aren't about gods or goddesses, but it can resonate with many people. You need the depth of experience within you to bring out that thing we call the "soul". When that soul is present, then it becomes bhakti.

For my own example, I couldn't quite get the grasp of Dikshitar until I travelled to a lot of places across the country. To see the flow of Ganga in the mountains near Rishikesh and to remember that krithi "gange mAm pAhi girisha shira sthithe - gambhira kaaye" -- it's a sight to remember, to see the river before it is touched by pollution.

Fortunately for us, Indian wisdom gives us a practically infinite number of options in which we can perceive that soul -- from gods and goddesses to genius to mother nature to the universe to a moment of timeless silence. You know those verses that begin with "Ya devi sarva bhuteshu" or the 10th chapter of the Gita. There was even a chapter in the Bhagavatam about how one wise soul sees the whole world as his guru (which is a refreshing take on the whole concept of jagat-guru -- something which I think even the Maha Periva once said).

One can be honest to say that some angles of experience resonate more than others (e.g. the raga or the silence more than the lyric or the rhythm more than the raga) and therefore one is more selective about what one likes in the music. It's also fully ok if someone says that they don't like something. But it's unfair to make a sweeping statement that simply dismisses an entire aspect of the music as "not important" as if it were gospel fact.

I won't therefore say that CM is trying to get out of bhakti -- but our musicians may just want something more out of it than to simply recite the experiences of others in foreign tongues. I just wish though that they'd take some time to explain themselves rather than making a brash one liner.

[arasi]

Srinath,
I thank you and Vasanthakokilam for mentioning those compositions of mine in this context.

They are born out of my wondering how men look upon the women in their lives and what their feelings may be towards them. We do have plenty of songs describing a woman's state of mind (written mostly by men!).

Suryaprakash has sung them with empathy. engirundO vandAi CD contains the songs from that set of songs. I let Suryaprakash choose the songs which appealed to him most. Our team work was fun to the extent I came up with a song or two in response to his wanting to add more shades of feelings to the collection.

This is the only CD of mine where gods and divinity are not addressed. Sumitra Nitin (2 CDs), Neela Ramgopal and Gayathri Girish have sung my compositions with enthusiasm and empathy too, in those CDs.

For those who do not know how EngirundO vandAi came about, it sprang from a discussion we had here at Rasikas I owe it to Arun. His thoughts and his song spurred me...

[shankarank]

This is the only CD of mine where gods and divinity are not addressed.

Looks like men have made Women's life an un-divine experience that it became ripe for a compositional theme!
By the way there are so many lines in Upanishads where Gods and divinity are not addressed - the Shanti mantra as one example. We seem to feel a difference anxiety with the west when it comes to these matters.

[arasi]

I don't think you quite understand it the way it is. It's more like the first line of an old hit song: I want to look inside your head, yes I do, yes I do. I thought about how men feel when they love a woman, care for her...how they grow in their understanding of her, how dejected they feel when they're rejected by her and so on...

[shankarank]

So you become the first one to empathize with men's travails Anyways I will try to get a copy and listen..

[arasi]

Thanks for that But seriously, if I were the first woman to empathize with men, how in the world do you think menfolk survived until now

[SrinathK]

@arasi, I was just listening to this padam for the 1st time today -- the way Brinda and Mukta have sung it...

ninnu jUDa. rAgA: punnAgavarALi. tripuTa tALA.

P: ninnu jUDa galige nI innAllaku
A: ninnu jUci nAlugaidu nelalAyE muvvagOpAla
C1: ninna rEyi kalalOna kannula gaTTinaTluNDa vennuDa digguna lEsi vedaki kAnaka
kannItucE paiTadaDisi karagi cittanonditi nannu dalacitO lEdO nA nOmu phalamA
2: viDemani yannamani vEDukani niddurayani eDabAsinadi moda lEmiyu lEdugA
aDavilO proddu gUka andhakAramaina vAnalO taDasi dOva gAnani dAni valeyunna tanaku
3: kannavArADukonEdi kannelu navvukonEdi vinnavO vinalEdO vinarA I vinta
ninnu gUDinadE modalu nI tODidE lOkamai yunnAnintE vErE manasaiyuNTinA muvvagOpAlA

“When he comes home after a long time”

The heroine in this lyric is a wedded wife (swiiya) who is ardently in love with her husband who, in her estimate, is Muvvagopala incarnate and she is quite confident of his affection for her although she is of a modest temperament (Madhya). Ksetrayya returned home after a few weeks or few months’ absence, which period he spent in the premises of Muvvagopala temple, engaged in penance culminating in a trance and outcome of the another lyric “shripati sutu”. In the present lyric, it is felt that Ksetrayya depicted verbatim, the welcoming sentiments expressed by his wife Rukmini on seeing him back home after an absence of three or four months. Like the heroine in this lyric we can get a picture of Ksetrayya’s wife to be a domesticated young bride with timidness and shyness at the start and gradual assertion and self confidence, but, she would always like to be good to her husband in spite of his being wayward at any time (i.e. uttama)

Meaning:
It has been possible to see you, after such a long time!
Four or five moons have passed away since I saw you last, O Muvvagopala!
It has become …
Yester-night in my dream when you appeared, as it were real, before me, rising from my bed, O Vishnu, having searched and failed to find you
With upper cloth soaked in tears, I pined away in grief;
may you have thought of me or not, O fruit of my austerities
It has become …
Not a single pleasure, ever since you left me, no dinner, no betel and nut, no entertainment, no sleep;
as if, when the sun has set amidst wilderness, darkness and rain,
I grope like one, who is completely drenched and lost her way in woods!!
It has become …
The loud thinking of my parents and the laughing light talk of the young maids may have reached you or not,
You will be surprised to hear that ever since you had me, you alone are the center of my world, and my mind remains undiverted; O my Muvvagopala!!
It has become …

I wonder if the padam lore has focused on the way a man feels as much.

[shankarank]

Thanks for that But seriously, if I were the first woman to empathize with men, how in the world do you think menfolk survived until now

You want me to believe Women didn't understand their own agenda quite well? Anyways I give it to you M'am - you are the poet queen!

[arasi]

Srinath,
A beauty...Thanks!

The hunter, and later the breadwinner came home
Home to her and to all that she could offer--

Then came the time when both went out--each
To their workplace, both providers, coming home
To what? Mutual caring and sharing? If it weren't so
MuvvA gOpAluDu turned monster and RukmiNi into witch...

[arasi]

Shankarank,

Our posts crossed. I was writing the above before you mentioned it, queen or not

[shankarank]

MuvvA gOpAluDu turned the third child and RukmiNi into bhadra-kAli - where bhadra means protection by bringing order in the house! - is more like it.

[SrinathK]

Heroes and heroines as a rule, never have to deal with the mundane stuff. Hence it's endless appeal.

@Arasi, your scenario would be more suited for a married Radha - Krishna relationship than a married Rukmini - Krishna relationship if heroine temperaments are kept in mind.

[vgovindan]

I wonder if the padam lore has focused on the way a man feels as much.

I will relate a story in the life of Mirabai. She went to Mathura to meet a great saint - Ramananda?. However she was refused admission. The disciples told that he (Master) has refused to allow any woman.

Mira replied "In Mathura, I thought there was only one Man - Krishna. Now, I realise there is a competition."

The disciples conveyed this to the Master. The Master came running to meet Mira.

Kshetrayya is considered a saint composer who used SrngAra as his mode of worship - like Jayadeva. There is a Telugu movie on him with Nageswara Rao in the lead role.

The relationship between Atman and ParamAtman is very potently illustrated through SrngAra bhAva. That Paramatma can be worshipped in any method is true - Bharati has attempted it in his Kannamma Song - as a male to female.

In Hindu tradition, the relationship between Atman and Paramatman is more delightfully depicted as nAyikA - nAyaka - the Atman as nAyikA. The other way round is very rare. And it goes by the equation between Atman and Paramatman.

[shankarank]

Heroes and heroines as a rule, never have to deal with the mundane stuff. Hence it's endless appeal.

@Arasi, your scenario would be more suited for a married Radha - Krishna relationship than a married Rukmini - Krishna relationship if heroine temperaments are kept in mind.

I thought you meant these compositions [:cough] are supposed resonate my experience. Now you are pushing me into a fantasy land that Hindi movies offer in abundance. You are trying to have it both ways?

[shankarank]

For my own example, I couldn't quite get the grasp of Dikshitar until I travelled to a lot of places across the country. To see the flow of Ganga in the mountains near Rishikesh and to remember that krithi "gange mAm pAhi girisha shira sthithe - gambhira kaaye" -- it's a sight to remember, to see the river before it is touched by pollution.

Did any musician that rendered this provide the same feeling as what you got when you actually went there? Dikshitar is supposed to be the epitome of rAga bhava - does that also include sAhitya bhava?

I think what Dikshitar and the musician achieved was etching the words into your memory with abstract music. Dikshitar got his words as a debt from the sages and ancestors - he borrowed more than say tyAgaraja - in a well formed language but richly paid back his by setting them to lilting music.
tyAgaraja paid it back by setting a spoken language (mostly) to a new form of Chandas ( yati viSrama) and music by borrowing much less directly.

The Chandas ( both verses and rhythm) then became a parasite hopping on to a musician whose agenda is to render the music as he sees fit.

There is adRSTa phala (talked about by Bharata IIRC) in various forms - the spiritual if a listener focuses on meaning ignoring musical idiosyncrasies, the abstraction wrought by the rhythm and melody, and finally the invisible hand (ritual) of verses getting etched by musical repetition that you can then take to Rshikesh or a listener can take to a Harikatha or a sangIta upanyAsam - where a more contextual than literal meaning may be explored. Lets remember that the language sometimes is only as good as a syntax.

Muni Rao I think has attempted to say this many times.

All in all there may be disappointment if we expect the musician to create the gandeur of flowing Ganga.

I see that many Western Symphonies are trying to create Rain and Thunder sounds now - to relate to people

[sureshvv]

I thought you meant these compositions [:cough] are supposed resonate my experience. Now you are pushing me into a fantasy land that Hindi movies offer in abundance. You are trying to have it both ways?

You are the one who is "supposed to resonate" (or not). At the end of the day, it is in the rasika's mind. If the music moves you (from CM or even Hindi movies), it has fulfilled its misson.

[SrinathK]

Did any musician that rendered this provide the same feeling as what you got when you actually went there? Dikshitar is supposed to be the epitome of rAga bhava - does that also include sAhitya bhava?

I believe I stated that as an example of an occasion where you can get up close and personal with the lyrics.

Dikshitar's lyrics have plenty of sahitya bhava. The trick is however, to be there and experience it through your own eyes, unlike Thyagaraja, who makes you see through his eyes. Yes, the music did etch the words in too. But all said and done, did it just sound like you were being a little condescending to Diskhitar's genius?

For that matter it is rather unfair to expect anyone singing Thyagaraja krithis or Dikshitar krithis to be like Thyagaraja and Dikshitar in all respects, isn't it? So I won't say that it is the musician alone who provides that feeling ... a large part of "feeling the bhava" as a rasika is actually entirely of my own making -- and this is something very very important. A not so insignificant part of the musical experience is self generated by the rasika, but it needs the music to inspire it.

If anyone has an issue that the music is not abstract enough, then one can just keep stripping at it until it reaches the highest form of universal abstraction --- silence. I think the real problem is not with the composed music, it's actually an urge to indulge more in manodharma sangeetham that isn't getting fulfilled to it's heart's content.

[sureshvv]

I am a simple man educated in Tamil medium - studied upto SSLC - and learnt English the hard way over the next 50 years. Therefore, I do not understand the Queen's English - and not been able to make out whether people are talking straight or not. Pardon my ignorance.

Sir. You are more knowledgeable and well prepared than most of us. Your humility does not hide it.

If people want to ridicule what I said, well it is up to them - no regrets. But I mean what said about the tempo and boisterousness of the version of kRti because I understand the depth of it and the mood of the composer when he would have composed and sung it.

It has nothing to do with the mythology attached to it because I go by the wordings of the kRti.

I hope nothing I said is taken as ridicule. But I am not able to dismiss the mythology that easily. If this song was able to bring back a man presumed to be dead, I believe it would probably be due to the "life" in it. So the "tempo and boisterousness" could be appropriate.

[vallknowme]

sureshvv said "If this song was able to bring back a man presumed to be dead, I believe it would probably be due to the "life" in it."

"elan vital" as Henri Bergson would say. What song are you talking about by the way?

[vallknowme]

<redacted. If you like to say something to individual members, please use the forum email facility>

[sureshvv]

sureshvv said "If this song was able to bring back a man presumed to be dead, I believe it would probably be due to the "life" in it."

"elan vital" as Henri Bergson would say. What song are you talking about by the way?

"Na jeevadhara"

See above for discussion and clips.

[shankarank]

Interesting to hear Subbudu's take on compositional themes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Pv0G8k20I starting 38:47

[kvchellappa]

From a book (a century old)
IDEALS OF MUSICAL TEACHING
The old notion that the study of music should be for the production of a performer of music, has been well nigh replaced by the idea that the study of music is to enable the student to appreciate music and take part in its exquisite propaganda.
Of those who have performed this service for America there is one lady who has devoted many years to the dissemination of the ideas of
Leschitizky and Reiff on this important subject. Her pupils, numbered by thousands, are disseminating in middle America the notion that the true musician, like the true scientist,is one who dwells in spirit in a realm of idealism which he contacts in a mental and emotional way, 'a world in which he knows something of the rules of conduct and the criteria of life.
It is in these ideals, not in the products of technicians, that the great hope for humanity lies along artistic and aesthetic lines.
W, V-H,

[vgovindan]

I am reminded of story. There was a dispute in the Court of a King. Two mothers were fighting about a baby - each one stated that she is the biological mother. The King could not come to any decision. There was a clever minister - like Birbal or Tenali Rama. He suggested that the baby should be cut into two pieces and one piece each given to the contesting mothers.

Hearing this, one mother kept silent; the other one cried out - "please, don't do that; give the baby to the other woman."

The minister looked at the King. The King understood that the woman who cried out is the biological mother.

Now, that is bhAva.

tyAgarAja would sing - kAmini vEshadhAriki sAdhvi naDatalu Emaina telusunA? (rAma nIyeDa - kharaharapriya)

[arasi]

Govindan,
It was King Solomon.

[vgovindan]

arasi,
Thanks.

[varsha]

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/asf5wxr ... _Ragas.mp3

No words for close to an hour .
Is this not CM.?
What I feel , is bhakti to me .Makes me speechless
CM
The ultimate truth

[sureshvv]

Amazing stuff. Who are the artistes? KVN?

[varsha]

will wait for a few more guesses.
will send u the name by email though

[vasanthakokilam]

Great indeed.

Kalyanaraman?

[varsha]

nope. will wait for three more,excluding Sachi
to think that this happens in so many places , everyday

[shankarank]

Sounds like somewhat younger TKG teaching someone.

It could also be R K Srikantan teaching his son?

[pvs]

The student sounds like NSG at times?

[varsha]

negative
one left
clue: second half of the name ( not the one which stands for the place they hail from ) is the same as another amazing vidwan
both are not kalaidhis at Academy

[pvs]

tantalizing. the voice and mannerisms are so familiar yet hard to name (my bad).

If I may sneak in another guess, is it Sankara Iyer?

[KSJaishankar]

TRS? With the other vidwan being Pazhani Subramania Pillai?

[varsha]

thanks folks
it was mayavaram rajam
wonderful is how i can describe this clip
cheers

[srini_pichumani]

GurugaLE, thank you from the bottom of my heart !!! A beautiful recording !

Mayavaram Rajam was my guess too though I was too timid/late to offer it up

But, honestly, i have heard very little of Mayavaram Rajam and never in person, so after hearing the clean and sonorous voice pegged at 2 1/2 kaTTai s'ruti (kambi padamAna sAreeram), I was going throuh a neti-neti process -- not quite like Ramnad Krishnan, not quite like early Nedanuri, not like early Puducode Krishnamurti, not quite like early TKG whose voice in teaching someone Todi in Bombay in the 60s/70s is nothing short of amazing (on an absolutely horrible recording though), not like Tanjavur Sankara Iyer which is very sonorous but raspier, kind-of/sort-of like MaruttuvakkuDi Rajagopala Iyer but I have only heard him sing kritis not free flowing alapanas like this and that too only at 1 kaTTai s'ruti etc...

when your hint of the non-Kalanidhi duo sharing the same name and my search for Mayavaram Rajam on youtube led me to his Shanmukapriya which was also at around 2.5 kaTTai ! and that clinched it.

I swear that if we had an early 1920 voice of Mudikondan Venkatarama Iyer it would probably be like this.

The clean akAra voice without any artifice, the utter lack of any "intellectual", "urban", "scholarly conceit that I read into the singing - are all very beautiful !!!

-Srini.

[arasi]

Unlettered as I am in 'vyavahAram's, it's the ear which comes to the aid in appreciation. Better qualify it as inner ear since the outer ones are failing...

KVN was a quick guess of course, but soon knew it wasn't.

Srini,
Good to hear from you. Your analysis makes me want to go back and listen to the whole thing. Not only do you know your stuff--your rasanai doesn't leave you when you examine the music. 'akku vERu ANi vERu' --analyzing as if CM is a pure science is not your way.The aesthetic experience remains intact in the process.

Now I need to go back and listen to the whole thing. Thanks to you and to Varsha for bringing it to us in the first place...

[varsha]

The clean akAra voice without any artifice, the utter lack of any "intellectual", "urban", "scholarly conceit that I read into the singing - are all very beautiful !!!

So was your post
without any artifice, the utter lack of any "intellectual", "urban", "scholarly conceit .......

I was blessed to have Sankara Iyer as my neighbor for several years , in the 80s
He taught me , an outsider then , to appreciate CM.... Kumbakonam vethalai too
Through countless sessions which ran like these.Followed by listening to his idol Amir Khan.
On days he got late for his concerts , I ferried him on my bajaj chetak!!!
There were days when I would see Dwaram Mangatayaru or Tirupprkadal walking in as I started for office.And I would decide to skip office to eavesdrop.Musical outpourings without a beginnig , without an end , without a plan..
The world in which musicians live OMG
early Ramnad Krishnan, early Nedanuri, early Puducode Krishnamurti, early TKG...all such delightful strands of a condition of mind
Days just like these.

[varsha]

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/stgx3sa ... raniye.mp3
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/0oa7dc8 ... raniye.mp3
pl identify this song for me
raga composer....

[uday_shankar]

The raga is Jyotiswaroopini...don't know any compositions in this raga and certainly not this one. Hope the raga ID helps in your sleuthing...

[pperumal]

Thanks varsha for the class recording.
Do we know who the student is pls?

PP.

[varsha]

no idea of student:(
thanks citravenu u sh

[arasi]

Varsha,
I haven't heard this one before. Loved the ease with which it is sung, and the voice.

On other hand, Koteesvara Iyer's gAnAmuda pAnam has been popular even with old timers! How exotic a rAgA like this sounded then!

[pvs]

http://stotraratna.sathyasaibababrother ... g/a133.htm

this link says it is NS Chidambaram, but the ragam is not given right.
MMI's ganamudapanam is a joy. Who is the artist singing paripooraniye?

[varsha]

Mayavaram Rajam