Walk out during Thani????

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 14 Feb 2009, 07:16

erode14,

. BTW, where were you all along?Long time no posts!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Feb 2009, 08:37

Very busy teaching his students--and playing in a lot of concerts too, I hope...

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 15 Feb 2009, 14:31

While it is somewhat possible to pick up raga fu through sustained listening, I think it is harder with laya. There are infrequent lec-dems about laya but they are few and far between. I am sure there are many out there who would love to enjoy the thani as much as they do the rest of the concert. To this end, it may help if the mridanga vidwan gave a small overview as to what they will be playing before the thani - so people know what to watch out for.

Good idea?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Feb 2009, 16:15

Good idea Suresh but I don't think the main artiste would appreciate it too much! Lec Dems are more "implementable".

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Feb 2009, 19:47

To this end, it may help if the mridanga vidwan gave a small overview as to what they will be playing before the thani

They often will not know beforehand!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 16 Feb 2009, 16:50

vijay wrote:Good idea Suresh but I don't think the main artiste would appreciate it too much! Lec Dems are more "implementable".

Many vocalists are highly supportive of the percussionists and make requests to the audience on behalf of them. May be they can do the commentary for the thani

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 16 Feb 2009, 16:51

nick H wrote:
To this end, it may help if the mridanga vidwan gave a small overview as to what they will be playing before the thani
They often will not know beforehand!

So this may force them to plan a little. Is that a bad thing?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Feb 2009, 19:31

Suresh,
Good idea, but my little heart starts beating fast when I think of the prospect of a mini lecture which may grow into a mega one! An announcement by the vocalist to help out the listeners with an unfamiliar rAgA is fine. Other than that, any talk (however impressive) can ruin the momentum of the concert. I have experienced this intrusion by way of a prolonged speech in the middle of a concert and have been put off because not only did the concert time get curtailed, but the speech came just when the vocalist was in his elements.
If such a thing would help, what guarantee is there that 1) the erudite percussionist communicates to lay rasikAs in a way that is easy for them to understand (a great artiste isn't necessarily a great teacher)? 2) The listeners have the patience for this sort of a thing? They may still leave the auditorium or start chatting (as they do during boring speeches). If there truly are those who want to learn, some time ahead of the concert (say, 15 mins), the perccussionist might help the audience in getting familiar with the tALa pattern of the RTP--can sere as mike testing time too.
I am happy listening to an uninterrupted concert even if I do not understand the complexities of tALa. I still enjoy the sound of 'sound' percussion which aids and enhances the singing/playing...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Feb 2009, 21:17

sureshvv wrote:
nick H wrote:
To this end, it may help if the mridanga vidwan gave a small overview as to what they will be playing before the thani
They often will not know beforehand!
So this may force them to plan a little. Is that a bad thing?

Errr... yes!

This is supposed to be one of the improvised parts of a concert.

After reading Arasi's post now, I too am against the idea of any explanation from the mridangist. Quite apart from the danger inherent in the fact that some of our senior mridangists are more than a bit chatty, once they get a mic in their hands, the thani should, I think, not be separated out, but should be seen as part of the item of which it is, ummm, a part. It should flow from the preceding swaras and return to the song at the end.

A vocalist or instrumentalist can give the ragam, talam, title, composer at the start, or even mutter the names of ragas whilst singing ragamalika swara, without causing any interruption to our senses. For a start, in a vocal performance, the voice does not come as any surprise, for that is what we have been listening to. The sum total of this is just a few syllables.

Compare: "I'm going to start with some sarva laghu in chatusra nadai, and, after playing some varieties, I will play a korvai, give some different compositions, followed by another korvais. I'll pass you over to the ghatam player, to tell you what he will play... ... ... I'll play a section in tisra nadai, also giving the ghatam player a chance, and then we will take a koraipu, a misra koraipu, followed by a little more sarva laghu, farans, mohara and the final korvais. Would anybody like me to explain any of that?"

It sounds like a great idea, but when we consider the practicality, I don't think it sticks.

I've heard Karikudi Mani say that the composers of korvais should be credited like the composers of songs...

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 17 Feb 2009, 02:53

arasi wrote:Pun (pan)nagarajan at work again!

Bravo, nick! I dare not say encore!
(for your benefit:pannagam is also snake, as in nAga)

Arasi mam,

If I may, he is Punnagai Rajan(king Of humour), good at naya-vinyasam.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 17 Feb 2009, 11:25

nick H wrote: After reading Arasi's post now, I too am against the idea of any explanation from the mridangist

I am tending towards agreement.

But...

1. How about if the vocalist gives a short burst of running commentary at each key point during the thani?

2. Or a printed sheet is circulated that contains a more elaborate description.

Does that sound more workable?

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 17 Feb 2009, 12:03

The very reason people walk out during Thani only because of it is played during fag end of the concerts. We have a typical set Varnam, keerthanams, RTP , Thani and thukkadas. Hence the main artists should consider giving more than once as it used be or it should not be the penulitimate

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Feb 2009, 12:10

How about if the vocalist gives a short burst of running commentary at each key point during the thani?

Remember that LCD screen idea to display the raga/thala information

It can be put to good use here. A shishya of the mridangist can type in a tweet of a running commentary during the thani.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 17 Feb 2009, 13:29

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Remember that LCD screen idea to display the raga/thala information

Aah... You technology aficianados are so persistent. Just worried that you may replace the artistes with a hologram pretty soon

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 17 Feb 2009, 13:48

Punarvasu wrote:erode14, . BTW, where were you all along?Long time no posts!

as arasi said, been a bit busy that i hardly found time for myself and sharing... shall become active soon...

thank you arasi, kadambam, vijay, punarvasu, nick....

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 17 Feb 2009, 13:52

sureshvv wrote:
Aah... You technology aficianados are so persistent. Just worried that you may replace the artistes with a hologram pretty soon

That will be great. You can have the same concert at multiple venues .

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Feb 2009, 14:21

Sureshvv, there are already people trying their hand at automated CM- I remember a thread in the not too distant past to this effect. So no worries, technology is enveloping us surely!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Feb 2009, 14:40

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Feb 2009, 16:04

And this is only the most recent thread on the topic!

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 17 Feb 2009, 16:41

Rude, inconsiderate, uncivil, bad mannered, childish etc. are the words that describe the people who walk out. You may cite any number of reasons why they walk out - poor rendering, badly designed Sabhas etc, but the flaw first lies with these walkers, period.

I can't help feeling dismayed when venerable looking ladies and gentlemen make their way to the doors as soon as the Tani starts.

I will suggest that organizers should demarcate a couple of rows at the back of the Sabhas for "Tani walkers" and put up prominent signs that people intending to head out during Tani may please take their places in the said area.

When you can have the vote-of-thanks before the end of a concert because people will not stay to hear it at the end, why not have a similar arrangement for another similar reason?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Feb 2009, 20:03

Yes Cool, this thread comes across as though Yeti is stomping around the slopes of the Himalayas!
Two suggestions which appeal to me:

Suresh's idea about a print-out which explains the tani. It can b handed over as you enter the hall so that you have plenty of time to look at it (fan yourself, if it is hot!) and get an idea about it. When the time comes, we would be ready to take it in at our own levels of understanding. After a few concerts with the print-out, even those who are indifferent may start lookin gforward to a tAni.

Yes, VK. I would like an 'above the stage' moving display of commentary, as we see simultaneous translations in an opera.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Feb 2009, 22:55

It would be fascinating, when watching a performer like Sankaran, to know what nadai they are playing at any moment, as they progress through several. Other than having a mridangist sitting by me and whispering, it is about the only way I would be able to follow such intricacies.

Otherwise, I fear that, because it is ever moving on, the explanation will always be too late!

I was rather chuffed the other day to have correctly understood that I was hearing a khanda koraipu in tisra nadai (confirmed by a student of UKS who was sitting next to me). As someone who has sat through a number of mridangam classes, those words have an inkling of meaning to me (like I might recognise it, but could not possibly play it, or even explain it in depth) --- but, as an example, would they be very enlightening to most, should they appear on our mythical LCD?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Feb 2009, 01:26

(confirmed by a student of UKS who was sitting next to me). As someone who has sat through a number of mridangam classes, those words have an inkling of meaning to me (like I might recognise it, but could not possibly play it, or even explain it in depth) --- but, as an example, would they be very enlightening to most, should they appear on our mythical LCD?

See, I want that benefit you had, of having a disciple of UKS sitting next to you, to be available to everyone. I think it will be educative and enlightening to a lot of people if some information about the dynamics of the thani as it progresses and unfolds is provided somehow. May be it has to a bit less technical but that can be worked out over time. For example, Koraippu is something people hear and can identity very well.

Having that label of 'Koraippu' for that sound pattern may not be much but it does help people converse about it later on. That is what helps with the fandom. 'Kanda Koraippu' adds to that scholarship and talking of 'Kanda koraippu in thisra nadai' puts one in the top 10 percentile and others would want to know what it is so they can get up there

For venues that do not have LCD screens ( probably all venues right now ), an immediate solution is to use internet technology like Twitter ( or even simple SMS ) where one signs up as a follower of that disciple. The disciple can send out short 140 character messages/tweets about what is going on and the followers can follow along ( of course with their cell phone in silent mode )

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Feb 2009, 02:02

Having that label of 'Koraippu' for that sound pattern may not be much but it does help people converse about it later on.

Yes, that is true, and even more intelligible to someone who knows the meaning of the word because they speak the language.

After all, much of what I call 'understanding' in this area is actually little more than the ability to associate some words with some patterns --- sarva laghu, korvai, tiermanum, mohara, koraipu

But, bare in mind that the conversation I had with that guy (who recognised me from the audience at his 2004 arangetram!) was:

"Was that khanda korraipu?"

"yes, in Tisra nadai"

"Great! That's what I thought it was!"

So it was confirmation after the event.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Feb 2009, 13:51

As a relative noob, to me part of the problem is the extreme overloading (of meaning) of the terms. Also mridangists seem to be talking about a different time interval most of the time

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Feb 2009, 00:53

Perhaps we could discuss that over a cup of tea one day?

Generally, I would say that understanding is hard to come by, and that 'understanding' terminology has actually meant being able to reel off the definition, and then the definitions upon which that definition depends.

I mean stuff like this: Krovai consists of two parts. The first part is called 'the first part' and the second part is called 'the second part.... Yes, knowing the definition does help us to recognise a korvai, but it is not very enlightening.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2009, 04:30

Right. Up to a certain extent knowing the terminology helps in communication which is needed for getting a better appreciation of the fine arts like CM.

Try explaining how the vocalists know the end of the thani so they can take back control. You have to use terms like Farans, Korvai and Theermanam. May be the best one can do without any terminology is, 'look for fast based strokes followed by some structured playing which repeats three times followed by a short sequence of sounds played three times....' Sort of works but becomes quite wordy after a while. To a computer scientist you can extoll the virtues of this with their own terminology 'It is like payload and content acting as a protocol trailer/delimiter' :rolleyes: Terminogy again but in their domain!

Crisp terminology is fine since it helps in communication and education but with art forms like CM its usefulness is sometimes significantly reduced due to ambiguities and lack of clear and standard definitions. We also have to concede that art forms are such that we can only provide scientific methods only to some limited extent. It should also be understood that any such 'descriptions' should not confused with 'prescriptions' and so one should always expect variations from such descriptions.

raghavt · Post by **raghavt** » 26 Mar 2009, 15:47

Why the audience walks out of the thani??? Answer - Why don't everyone come and listen to music concerts??? Because they are unable to understand the ragas and also, unable to enjoy it. Being a percussion show, its very important that a person should understand the item that is being presented. So, as per my thoughts, majority of rasikas who come for concerts do not have the know how of the intricacies of the art of south indian percussion, be it Mridangam, Kanjira or anything. A student of the Mridangam can very well understand the patterns, the ideas that the artist is trying to present. But what is it that for the person who does know the tala pattern, nothing else??? Recently, I had attended a concert of Shri Neiveli Santhanagopalan with Trichy Sankaran and BS Purushottaman on the Kanjira. The moment Thani started, all went to rest room and I felt very bad. Its really an insult to Sankaran sir. Sankaran sir was unwell and did play around 40% of his calibre. But, it was awesome (to me).

Raghav

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Mar 2009, 22:40

because they don't understand

So... they do understand the rhythmic complexities in kalpana swara?

We've been around this loop a few times, raghavt

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 26 Mar 2009, 22:51

raghavt wrote:Recently, I had attended a concert of Shri Neiveli Santhanagopalan with Trichy Sankaran and BS Purushottaman on the Kanjira. The moment Thani started, all went to rest room.

Hmm was the main item preceding the tani in tOya-vEgavAhinI by any chance?

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 27 Mar 2009, 17:48

I hate this habit and I think it's disgusting, rude and extremely disrespectful. I have noticed that no Caucasian, chinese or even north Indian walks out of a carnatic concert once seated. The only people to walk out are us South Indians. It makes my blood boil to see people leaving in droves just when the violinist starts delineating the main raga or when the thani starts to play. These people have no taste in music and should have never been allowed to purchase a ticket in the first place. They give rasikas of music, especially in foreign countries a bad name (imagine if you were a caucasian watching all these people leave halfway during a Sanjay concert in Pittsburgh)? These people ought to be branded as congenital ignoramuses and never allowed within 500 metres of a music venue again.

Dammit if you need to pee do it before the concert. If people walk out, lock them out for good.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Mar 2009, 20:53

Dammit if you need to pee do it before the concert.

My big problem is that, if this is the case, the one point in the concert where I simply dare not leave is, of course, the thani!

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 29 Mar 2009, 09:32

According to our friend friend bala747 and using his own language about visiting the loo, there should be a notice board,' patients with diabetes' may please refrain from attending the performance. Afterall a visit to the loo is not at one's will and pleasure. It is a punishment for patients. gobilalitha

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Mar 2009, 20:19

GBL,
This topic has been going round for ever. We all have our intolerance levels tested every now and then. At such moments, I immediately think of the collective mass of such moments that those perfrming on the stage have witnessed! I appreciate them for their putting up with it--and rising above it all to give us solid performances. The elderly vidvAns, as much victims to debilitating diseases, don't get up in the middle of a performance!
Somehow, 'audience' status gives more freedom, even to them! That is why they arrive at a performance rather late, and get up and go smack in the middle of a piece! All the same, I am immensely pleased when I see performers attending the performances of others, even when they are not part of an event which preceded the concert. I have seen and have heard of TRS being an exemplary vidvAn who sits through a concert like any other listener. There could be others. Recently, I witnessed TNS in the audience, listening to a good part of a concert. I have seen NSG arrive for his concert early, and instead of going back stage, come and sit in the audience to listen to the artiste who sang before him.
There are some (often in the Academy) who arrive late and make heads turn (and they like their entrances to be noticed while other stars just sneak in!), and after chatting with those sitting next to them, get up and leave!

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 30 Mar 2009, 03:28

Give a 5 mins break before and after the main song.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Mar 2009, 10:40

A "five minute break", like most five-minute jobs, will take considerably longer!

Intervals are usual in London concerts. I recall a performance by TNK... He started exactly on time, leaving many of the audience scurrying to their seats, announced the interval, saying it would be fifteen minutes, and started playing exactly fifteen minutes later, regardless of the fact that many of the audience had not returned. It was a lesson to us all!

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 30 Mar 2009, 14:26

Here's something interesting I observed during a recent concert. The concert was very good, and after a sumptuous Hemavati (SriKantimateem), it was time for Tani, and the mridangist started off. I fully expected the walk-outs to begin immediately. But surprise! No one ventured out. "Wonderful", I thought. This is such a refreshing change.".

Then, about 3 minutes into the Tani, an old gentleman gets up and makes his way to the door. Then, following the old man's lead, one after another, nearly a dozen people exited the concert hall. All within a minute of the old man setting the bad example.

It takes just one bad apple, I guess.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 30 Mar 2009, 20:34

HNBhagavan of Bangalore
Walk out during Thani is a great disrespect to the artists.Infact disciplene is lacking in our audience.Many people come to a concert and walk just after an hour or so.True there can be exceptions.Generally there is a mass walk out during Thani.I sometimes feel that an awareness program must be organised in this regard.
HNBhagavan

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Mar 2009, 22:26

girish: I would fault the followers than the leader in this case. Who knows why he got up, he may have had health specific issues like what GBL mentioned. Whatever may be the case, that does not mean others should consider that as a blanket approval to walk out. Reminds me of the behavior of Penguins, they stand at the edge of the ridge ready to take the jump into the water. All it takes is one to jump and all other penguins will jump.

vnbharadwaj · Post by **vnbharadwaj** » 31 Mar 2009, 02:15

I think the Mridangam artists are annoyed more by rasiks sitting in the front row and keeping 'THAPPU' thalam than by people walking out.. If the rasikas understand that listening to music is itself a ;YOGA' demanding 100% attention and single minded concentration, such situations may be avoided.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 31 Mar 2009, 02:49

To borrow a bit of humor from the Hilarity thread...
Don't drink too much thaNNI
Or you will be walking out during thani!

talalaya · Post by **talalaya** » 13 May 2018, 22:46

Was my post deleted? Was it so offensive? I thought it was pretty constructive?

Extremely poor Board Manners

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 14 May 2018, 04:40

Nick H wrote: ↑20 Feb 2009, 00:53 Perhaps we could discuss that over a cup of tea one day?
......

Caffeine is a diuretic and both coffee and tea have plenty of it.

So discussing it over a cup of tea will only lead to people leaving during the tani for a bio-break!

rasikas.org

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