Walk out during Thani????

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 26 Jan 2009, 17:13

Dear brother-member, srinivasrgvn, What you wrote is absolutely true. Many are unaware that while Laya instills confidence, brilliance and intelligence in music-students Shruti gives pleasure. While, in Hindusthani music, every musician must have the acquaintance of the Tabla, most surprisingly, all over the globe, no basics pertaining to any percussion instrument have ever been included in any syllabus of Karnataka music. Observing this defect, some of the rhythmical exercises have recently been included in the syllabi of Govt.Certificate and Diploma examinations which are being imparted now to the music-students of the Govt. Schools and Colleges of Music & Dance in Andhra Pradesh. It is very important to do so in respect of all the syllabi of Karnataka music all over the globe. amsharma

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Jan 2009, 18:09

msakella makes an important point for students of music. I suppose HM musicians need the information that they get from the tabla to follow the cycles, so must understand the patterns?

For the audience, though, we seems to have been around this circle so many times:

People walk out during thani avarthanam because they do not know or have any knowledge about the percussion instruments like mridangam, ghatam, etc.

---So what knowledge do the non-playing rasikas have of violin, flute, veena? Just as little as they have of mridangam, ghatam, kanjira!

---They say they do not understand the calculations of the thani. Do they then understand the calculations of the swaras? It is true that many claim they do not understand the thani, but if we examine that claim, it doesn't seem to make sense!

They may defend this latter point by saying that calculation is only a part of kalpana swara, that there is raga there too. I think it applies equally to kalpana swara as to thani that the emphasis on maths depends on the musician, for some it is very great, for others it is very less.

I do defend the right of an individual not to have enthusiasm for the thani, which is why I tend to focus on the effect on others of the walk out.

By the way: perhaps it was the concerts that I happened to attend, but it seemed to me to be less this last season.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jan 2009, 18:52

You may be right there, Nick. I did not see much of an exodus either this season. I like tanis more and more which does not mean that I know more of what is going on the stage. When they all come together (Sans noise, of course), it is as exciting as listening to other aspects of a concert.You are right again. You don't need to KNOW much to appreciate a tani, or for that matter the music which surrounds it. To be receptive to what is offered to you is the key to enjoying a concert. When you attend a lecture (out of interest), if you are an expert, you see the merits and demerits in the presentation, but others may glean a bit of information that may lead to their exploring more on that subject. CM being a sAgaram (sea) as we hear often on the forum, has divers (the knowledgeable ones), the swimmers (seasoned rasikAs) and those who stand on the shore and let the waves wet their feet. All are welcome to CM at their own levels of relationship with it. It is an experience which even at a minimal level cannot be dismissed as mere entertainment. Otherwise, a child who gets interested in a concert and sits through it quietly, knowing nothing much at all, is as much of a rasika as any other. It is natural for humans to be drawn to music. Genes and (or) exposure help in one's gaining experience in appreciating music. We are born with that ability. So, a child sitting through an entire concert need not be tagged as a highly gifted child or a prodigy! All toddlers love to play with pots and pans in the kitchen. We don't call them grand chefs in the making!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 26 Jan 2009, 20:11

I think the violin often gets a raw deal, volume-wise, in concerts.

I suspect that this recording was made by someone putting a single mike in the middle of the players. Flute is always loud, mridangam also. violin is much gentler. ...

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... -0101.html

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... shnan.html

As these threads demonstrate, violin has also been played to a sabha without any sound system. And indeed the violins were able to reach out into the hall for the second item, I can testify that. I was not present in the first one, but I'm sure it would have.

I have seen many accompanists hardly move their bow on the violin, which is perhaps why they're left inaudible. They probably think they'll be amplified nearly as much as the vocalist, due to which they physically reduce their playng volume.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 28 Jan 2009, 13:40

Sirs

Recently one person asked me in a Lecture-Demonstration how to appreciate Thani Avartanam ...

Then I said "You have to sit and listen".

Unless and until one sits and listens to thani avartanam it is difficult for them to appreciate.
Rasikas who understand the difficult ragas mean to say that they started appreciating them even before they listened ? By patient hearing and decyphering only it is possible to appreciate. We can say that some section of the audience are impatient. If the artiste is popular and if the audience knows that the main artiste will sing interesting Thukkadas then "Kadanennu" (i dont know how to express in english) they will listen to the Thani Avartanam. For all the other artistes the exodus is evident. There are many other reasons also like transportation back home and darkness etc etc which can be attributed. One more reason that i can also see is that Thani in most of the concerts is pushed to the fag end of the concert. so may be we can try starting off the concert with a Thani Avartanam instead of Varnam .. hahahaha. If Varnam can be sung at the fag end why not Thani avartanam in the beginning ?
Many lecture-demonstrations are being held on various aspects of mridangam in each and every sabha and the attendance is as usual very thin. Hence i am at a loss to see the point of increasing the awareness through Lec-Dems which have been going on at different point of times at different places.
Unless audience themselves make a change in their attitude we can only keep on expecting change.

J.Balaji

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 28 Jan 2009, 16:03

If thani avarthanam is in the beginning of concert - then audience might come late(;-

-hari

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 28 Jan 2009, 16:55

if it is for a popular concert they wont come late Mr.Hari sir ...at least to get a good place they will come early in that way we can make them listen ..

JB

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Jan 2009, 21:05

Balaji,
I notice that increasingly, tanis are being played earlier in concerts--soon after the main rather than after the RTP. Am I right in thinking that they are played about midway during the concert? This way, the exodus can be stemmed. If tanis are not too long, along with availability of buses and autos at that hour, people would stay and learn to appreciate it. As you say, the more one listens, the more one learns to appreciate tanis. You don't need to know much either, believe me

Another thing to consider is the noise level. If mudangists go for loudness (however skilled), that may scare people away.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 28 Jan 2009, 22:05

I am reminded of a Professor in my college. You can walk in and out of his class at any point of time. But he reserved the right to mark the attendance at his will. If you had walked in just a minute before that , you get your attendance marked but if you had walked out a just a minute before, then you lost it (attendance carried 5% marks then).

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 29 Jan 2009, 02:56

That's rather funny, rajumds. I imagine he'd get sued in the US.

The only two feasible solutions at this stage seem to be:
1. Giving thani in the first hour or so of the concert (after the submain?)
2. Giving a 5-10 min break right before the main.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 29 Jan 2009, 05:19

Sri BRC Iyengar's take http://www.krishnaganasabha.org/article ... yengar.pdf

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Jan 2009, 09:36

Thank you, Mohan.
An excellent article which is both for novices and experts (among mrudangists too:)). There are times when even novices like me hear the mrudangam siing melodiously. Cannot forget how PMI's sound fascinated me as a child. It blended with the vocalist and in a tAni, interpreted and enhanced the singing, thus continuing the pattern of the melody.
This essay while it is simple enough to read, speaks about the history, aesthetics and a percussion instrument's role as an integral part of the concert, rather than as a venue for exhibiting one's own skills. Does it apply to tALa vAdya concerts or has one room for exhibiting one's skills more there?

Svaapana · Post by **Svaapana** » 29 Jan 2009, 11:51

Thanks for the excellent reference Mohan.

As BRCI had beautifully said "only a slim margin of tasteless exhibition is separated from an experience that can be deeply moving".

A request to mridangam players. It is a common practice for many vocalists to announce the name of the raga specially when it is an uncommon one, and some even announce the other details of the krithi. Similarly, prior to the commencement of the thani the mridangam player can give a brief explanation on the rhythm aspect and some salient features that they would like the audience to observe during their thani. This will not only establish rapport with the audience but will also help them (i.e. those who find it difficult to appreciate laya) understand the intricate structure of the thani.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Jan 2009, 14:58

It is a good article, yes. Thanks Mohan.

It is a reminder that just as all concerts are not great, and some may even be bad, so not all thanis are equal.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Jan 2009, 15:15

Yes Nick. Just as we may end up listening to not so great a violinist not once but several times during the concert!

blackadder · Post by **blackadder** » 29 Jan 2009, 17:32

Well said, arasi. It has always baffled me that one is willing to listen to a mediocre violinist during the solo essays on and off throughout the concert but does not have the same willingness to listen to a ten minute thani. I am not too sure if it is ignorance that causes this; I believe it is more a trend that has been set years ago and we all know how keen we Indians are on tradition. Even an obnoxious tradition of walking out the moment the thani starts and to head towards the canteen.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Jan 2009, 20:46

Many are not so willing.

The violin return is often taken as an opportunity to visit the loo, read the newspaper... or just chat with a friend sitting a couple of rows away!

There is one point that I think I didn't repeat in this iteration of The Thani Discussion, which is that it is not just carnatic music that suffers. Back in the days that I attended a few rock concerts, I can say that the percussion solo there was also an excuse for many to "escape" to the bar, especially if it was expected to be long and complex. There is an opposite, but equally annoying, western-audience reaction, which is the explosion of delight to a piece of very ordinary tabla tekka. It's a bit like applauding the sitar player for a piece of wonderful tuning up!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 29 Jan 2009, 23:33

Aha, so CM is not alone in this quandary. Nick, this season I noticed several people leaving as soon as violinists started their main solo essays. If anything the cancer is spreading.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 30 Jan 2009, 18:28

Hi,

I cannot appreciate the thani technically. The thani playing always impresses me.
And I should be there for 'that' to give support to the laya artist who supported the main artist for which I have come.
So I can always be there but knowing it technically will help me to stay back with my mind analysing and improving myself over a period of time.
Probably I need to take a course on it.

And though it looks like many leaves during thani, a portion of the crowd take it as a interval to go to restrooms and come back.

Also laya vidwans do not take the-crowd-leaving as a serious problem, I guess. It is more of a distraction when you start the thani.
And again laya vidwans know that the main artist will not like to loose the crowd that has come for tukkada or RTP.
I think if they feel that they have got a crowd (crowd of main artist like Sanjay or TMK ...) to show their talent in a short period say 10-15 min
which otherwise they wouldnot have got in another main artist or on a solo laya concert, then everyone in the hall is happy
including the main artist. Offcourse there are exceptions like UKS, Mani who are larger than the main artist.

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 13 Feb 2009, 19:34

The three kinds of Percussion Solos are there....

1. laya vinyAsam - solo

2. live & awesome - soul-owe

3. laya vi - nAsam - so low

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 13 Feb 2009, 20:00

erode14 wrote:The three kinds of Percussion Solos are there....

1. laya vinyAsam - solo

2. live & awesome - soul-owe

3. laya vi - nAsam - so low

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2009, 00:04

Could I extend that to

4. laya ad Nausiam - for the few who really don't know when to stop!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Feb 2009, 00:11

Pun (pan)nagarajan at work again!

Bravo, nick! I dare not say encore!
(for your benefit:pannagam is also snake, as in nAga)

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 14 Feb 2009, 00:41

Brilliant Erode sir!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 14 Feb 2009, 07:16

erode14,

. BTW, where were you all along?Long time no posts!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Feb 2009, 08:37

Very busy teaching his students--and playing in a lot of concerts too, I hope...

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 15 Feb 2009, 14:31

While it is somewhat possible to pick up raga fu through sustained listening, I think it is harder with laya. There are infrequent lec-dems about laya but they are few and far between. I am sure there are many out there who would love to enjoy the thani as much as they do the rest of the concert. To this end, it may help if the mridanga vidwan gave a small overview as to what they will be playing before the thani - so people know what to watch out for.

Good idea?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Feb 2009, 16:15

Good idea Suresh but I don't think the main artiste would appreciate it too much! Lec Dems are more "implementable".

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Feb 2009, 19:47

To this end, it may help if the mridanga vidwan gave a small overview as to what they will be playing before the thani

They often will not know beforehand!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 16 Feb 2009, 16:50

vijay wrote:Good idea Suresh but I don't think the main artiste would appreciate it too much! Lec Dems are more "implementable".

Many vocalists are highly supportive of the percussionists and make requests to the audience on behalf of them. May be they can do the commentary for the thani

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 16 Feb 2009, 16:51

nick H wrote:
To this end, it may help if the mridanga vidwan gave a small overview as to what they will be playing before the thani
They often will not know beforehand!

So this may force them to plan a little. Is that a bad thing?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Feb 2009, 19:31

Suresh,
Good idea, but my little heart starts beating fast when I think of the prospect of a mini lecture which may grow into a mega one! An announcement by the vocalist to help out the listeners with an unfamiliar rAgA is fine. Other than that, any talk (however impressive) can ruin the momentum of the concert. I have experienced this intrusion by way of a prolonged speech in the middle of a concert and have been put off because not only did the concert time get curtailed, but the speech came just when the vocalist was in his elements.
If such a thing would help, what guarantee is there that 1) the erudite percussionist communicates to lay rasikAs in a way that is easy for them to understand (a great artiste isn't necessarily a great teacher)? 2) The listeners have the patience for this sort of a thing? They may still leave the auditorium or start chatting (as they do during boring speeches). If there truly are those who want to learn, some time ahead of the concert (say, 15 mins), the perccussionist might help the audience in getting familiar with the tALa pattern of the RTP--can sere as mike testing time too.
I am happy listening to an uninterrupted concert even if I do not understand the complexities of tALa. I still enjoy the sound of 'sound' percussion which aids and enhances the singing/playing...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Feb 2009, 21:17

sureshvv wrote:
nick H wrote:
To this end, it may help if the mridanga vidwan gave a small overview as to what they will be playing before the thani
They often will not know beforehand!
So this may force them to plan a little. Is that a bad thing?

Errr... yes!

This is supposed to be one of the improvised parts of a concert.

After reading Arasi's post now, I too am against the idea of any explanation from the mridangist. Quite apart from the danger inherent in the fact that some of our senior mridangists are more than a bit chatty, once they get a mic in their hands, the thani should, I think, not be separated out, but should be seen as part of the item of which it is, ummm, a part. It should flow from the preceding swaras and return to the song at the end.

A vocalist or instrumentalist can give the ragam, talam, title, composer at the start, or even mutter the names of ragas whilst singing ragamalika swara, without causing any interruption to our senses. For a start, in a vocal performance, the voice does not come as any surprise, for that is what we have been listening to. The sum total of this is just a few syllables.

Compare: "I'm going to start with some sarva laghu in chatusra nadai, and, after playing some varieties, I will play a korvai, give some different compositions, followed by another korvais. I'll pass you over to the ghatam player, to tell you what he will play... ... ... I'll play a section in tisra nadai, also giving the ghatam player a chance, and then we will take a koraipu, a misra koraipu, followed by a little more sarva laghu, farans, mohara and the final korvais. Would anybody like me to explain any of that?"

It sounds like a great idea, but when we consider the practicality, I don't think it sticks.

I've heard Karikudi Mani say that the composers of korvais should be credited like the composers of songs...

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 17 Feb 2009, 02:53

arasi wrote:Pun (pan)nagarajan at work again!

Bravo, nick! I dare not say encore!
(for your benefit:pannagam is also snake, as in nAga)

Arasi mam,

If I may, he is Punnagai Rajan(king Of humour), good at naya-vinyasam.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 17 Feb 2009, 11:25

nick H wrote: After reading Arasi's post now, I too am against the idea of any explanation from the mridangist

I am tending towards agreement.

But...

1. How about if the vocalist gives a short burst of running commentary at each key point during the thani?

2. Or a printed sheet is circulated that contains a more elaborate description.

Does that sound more workable?

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 17 Feb 2009, 12:03

The very reason people walk out during Thani only because of it is played during fag end of the concerts. We have a typical set Varnam, keerthanams, RTP , Thani and thukkadas. Hence the main artists should consider giving more than once as it used be or it should not be the penulitimate

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Feb 2009, 12:10

How about if the vocalist gives a short burst of running commentary at each key point during the thani?

Remember that LCD screen idea to display the raga/thala information

It can be put to good use here. A shishya of the mridangist can type in a tweet of a running commentary during the thani.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 17 Feb 2009, 13:29

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Remember that LCD screen idea to display the raga/thala information

Aah... You technology aficianados are so persistent. Just worried that you may replace the artistes with a hologram pretty soon

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 17 Feb 2009, 13:48

Punarvasu wrote:erode14, . BTW, where were you all along?Long time no posts!

as arasi said, been a bit busy that i hardly found time for myself and sharing... shall become active soon...

thank you arasi, kadambam, vijay, punarvasu, nick....

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 17 Feb 2009, 13:52

sureshvv wrote:
Aah... You technology aficianados are so persistent. Just worried that you may replace the artistes with a hologram pretty soon

That will be great. You can have the same concert at multiple venues .

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Feb 2009, 14:21

Sureshvv, there are already people trying their hand at automated CM- I remember a thread in the not too distant past to this effect. So no worries, technology is enveloping us surely!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Feb 2009, 14:40

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Feb 2009, 16:04

And this is only the most recent thread on the topic!

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 17 Feb 2009, 16:41

Rude, inconsiderate, uncivil, bad mannered, childish etc. are the words that describe the people who walk out. You may cite any number of reasons why they walk out - poor rendering, badly designed Sabhas etc, but the flaw first lies with these walkers, period.

I can't help feeling dismayed when venerable looking ladies and gentlemen make their way to the doors as soon as the Tani starts.

I will suggest that organizers should demarcate a couple of rows at the back of the Sabhas for "Tani walkers" and put up prominent signs that people intending to head out during Tani may please take their places in the said area.

When you can have the vote-of-thanks before the end of a concert because people will not stay to hear it at the end, why not have a similar arrangement for another similar reason?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Feb 2009, 20:03

Yes Cool, this thread comes across as though Yeti is stomping around the slopes of the Himalayas!
Two suggestions which appeal to me:

Suresh's idea about a print-out which explains the tani. It can b handed over as you enter the hall so that you have plenty of time to look at it (fan yourself, if it is hot!) and get an idea about it. When the time comes, we would be ready to take it in at our own levels of understanding. After a few concerts with the print-out, even those who are indifferent may start lookin gforward to a tAni.

Yes, VK. I would like an 'above the stage' moving display of commentary, as we see simultaneous translations in an opera.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Feb 2009, 22:55

It would be fascinating, when watching a performer like Sankaran, to know what nadai they are playing at any moment, as they progress through several. Other than having a mridangist sitting by me and whispering, it is about the only way I would be able to follow such intricacies.

Otherwise, I fear that, because it is ever moving on, the explanation will always be too late!

I was rather chuffed the other day to have correctly understood that I was hearing a khanda koraipu in tisra nadai (confirmed by a student of UKS who was sitting next to me). As someone who has sat through a number of mridangam classes, those words have an inkling of meaning to me (like I might recognise it, but could not possibly play it, or even explain it in depth) --- but, as an example, would they be very enlightening to most, should they appear on our mythical LCD?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Feb 2009, 01:26

(confirmed by a student of UKS who was sitting next to me). As someone who has sat through a number of mridangam classes, those words have an inkling of meaning to me (like I might recognise it, but could not possibly play it, or even explain it in depth) --- but, as an example, would they be very enlightening to most, should they appear on our mythical LCD?

See, I want that benefit you had, of having a disciple of UKS sitting next to you, to be available to everyone. I think it will be educative and enlightening to a lot of people if some information about the dynamics of the thani as it progresses and unfolds is provided somehow. May be it has to a bit less technical but that can be worked out over time. For example, Koraippu is something people hear and can identity very well.

Having that label of 'Koraippu' for that sound pattern may not be much but it does help people converse about it later on. That is what helps with the fandom. 'Kanda Koraippu' adds to that scholarship and talking of 'Kanda koraippu in thisra nadai' puts one in the top 10 percentile and others would want to know what it is so they can get up there

For venues that do not have LCD screens ( probably all venues right now ), an immediate solution is to use internet technology like Twitter ( or even simple SMS ) where one signs up as a follower of that disciple. The disciple can send out short 140 character messages/tweets about what is going on and the followers can follow along ( of course with their cell phone in silent mode )

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Feb 2009, 02:02

Having that label of 'Koraippu' for that sound pattern may not be much but it does help people converse about it later on.

Yes, that is true, and even more intelligible to someone who knows the meaning of the word because they speak the language.

After all, much of what I call 'understanding' in this area is actually little more than the ability to associate some words with some patterns --- sarva laghu, korvai, tiermanum, mohara, koraipu

But, bare in mind that the conversation I had with that guy (who recognised me from the audience at his 2004 arangetram!) was:

"Was that khanda korraipu?"

"yes, in Tisra nadai"

"Great! That's what I thought it was!"

So it was confirmation after the event.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Feb 2009, 13:51

As a relative noob, to me part of the problem is the extreme overloading (of meaning) of the terms. Also mridangists seem to be talking about a different time interval most of the time