nIlAmbarI: RIP Dec 21, 2008

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 22 Dec 2008, 01:25

We regret to announce the tragic demise of rAga nIlambarI on Sunday Dec 21, 2008. The end came around 3 pm at the Madras Music Academy, resulting from grievous injuries inflicted by the vocalist.
Valiant attempts by the violinist to resuscitate her proved futile and she died of a madhyama arrest and a prolapsed niShAda. mAdhava (kRShNa) was summoned but He did not arrive, perhaps fearing for His life too.

rAga mOhana also sustained mild injuries but was saved by the timely intervention of kapAli.

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 22 Dec 2008, 02:08

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... 22008.html :rolleyes:

appu · Post by **appu** » 22 Dec 2008, 02:34

Vainika, Dramatic post. Which artist is credited with this untimely demise. Some more details please

vv ramesh · Post by **vv ramesh** » 22 Dec 2008, 08:38

Hello Rasikas,
I was amongst the rest of the delighted audience to the performance of Abhishek Raghuram in the Music Academy held on the 21st of Dec. There is no doubt that he is the magician and genius of an vocalist in the field of Carnatic music of our times. Regarding Neelambari or any of the Ragams attempted by the young star, one needs a very high technical caliber to judge or to comment. The applause of the audience, the over-whelming positive response of the fellow artists and the review by Mr. Chalanata in this link -

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7782-abis "¦ 22008.html

is proof enough that the concert was a huge success in all aspects, which is also my strong opinion. I condemn the baseless critical judgement by someone as jealous as VAINIKA

Barking dogs don't stop, which should not be of any bother.

iamkirinlemon · Post by **iamkirinlemon** » 22 Dec 2008, 09:22

Hi Vainika,

The term we use for people like you in the US is "hater". Haters' opinions are characterized by negativity w/out substance. If you didn't like how the ragams were presented, you might want to offer some concrete reasons, and there can be a discussion.

I was at the concert and I echo the statement of the review linked in this thread: CM is safe in the hands of people like Abhishek, and not only that, it will continue to grow precisely because people like Abhishek strive to innovate and invent.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 22 Dec 2008, 09:24

I read RIP as RTP and opened this thread eagerly

Vainika, please do elaborate on your claim!

vv ramesh · Post by **vv ramesh** » 22 Dec 2008, 09:30

Well said iamkirinlemon..

sadasiva iyer · Post by **sadasiva iyer** » 22 Dec 2008, 10:27

< tasteless comment deleted by mods >

Mod note: Sadasiva Iyer, let us not get excited. The discussion will take its own course. Also, make sure you do not use multiple ids.

sadasiva iyer · Post by **sadasiva iyer** » 22 Dec 2008, 10:42

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2008/de ... stival.htm

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 22 Dec 2008, 12:10

iamkirinlemon wrote:If you didn't like how the ragams were presented, you might want to offer some concrete reasons, and there can be a discussion.

i. If one examines the madhyama of nIlAmbarI, it is characteristically kampita. Unadorned (non-gamaka) madhyama does exist, but is never prolonged and usually resolves to gAndhAra or via a jAru to panchama. In contrast, one found an incongruous, almost suruTi-esque, pause on unadorned s'uddha ma towards the conclusion of the piece.

ii. Similarly, in the beginning of the AlApanA, there was an inordinately long pause on kAkali niShAda bereft of AndOlita gamaka - very uncharacteristic of nIlAmbari when one looks at the particular coupling of duration and gamaka-absence.

iii. As regards mOhana, I was not the only one who heard anusvaras of prati madhyama in the P-G and of kAkali niShAda in the S-D , lending it a mohana-kalyANI-ish feel in the beginning phrases.

If individuals have access to recordings of these AlApanAs, they could draw their own conclusions.

The critique is not to malign the artiste, who is undoubtedly very talented, but to urge him to pay more attention to rAga lakShaNas.

Similar observations were made of his s'uddha dhaivata and kais'iki niShAda in tODi (Music Academy 2000 concert, Carnatica review), and his madhyamAvatI niShAda (Music Academy 2007 concert, Hindu review and pers. obs.).

vainika
(L Ramakrishnan)

Ref.
http://www.carnatica.net/mmmabhishek.html
http://www.hindu.com/ms/2008/01/01/stor ... 030300.htm

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 22 Dec 2008, 12:25

L Ramakrishnan, are you a violinist. If so I have seen you play. ANd it makes me take your comments more seriously.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Dec 2008, 12:27

vainika is a vainika. Yes, he does not make frivolous comments.

vv ramesh · Post by **vv ramesh** » 22 Dec 2008, 13:06

Let it be kampita, kakali nishada, daivatha or anything. Technical aspects never helps one to present a successful concert. Yes of course, considering Lakshanam is mandatory in Carnatic music, but for your information VAINIKA, Lakshya gnanam matters the most on stage. Thats when audience enjoy music to the maximum extent like I did. If you are too critical about such technical aspects, how will you appreciate stalwarts like GNB, Rajaratnam Pillai, Madurai Somu, Sethalapathi Balasubramaiam and many more. Probably, you haven't really listened to such great musicians. People like you are just fit for lecture demonstrations. So do not try to showcase your prowess of bookish knowledge. Better play your veena at home and enjoy yourself.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 22 Dec 2008, 13:33

vv ramesh wrote: Regarding Neelambari or any of the Ragams attempted by the young star, one needs a very high technical caliber to judge or to comment.

cf.

vv ramesh wrote:Let it be kampita, kakali nishada, daivatha or anything. Technical aspects never helps one to present a successful concert.

OK, so heads I lose, tails you win

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 22 Dec 2008, 13:52

vv ramesh......i guess vainika has every right to express his feelings........it is really offending when u tell somebody to sing or play his instrument at home and be happy. What has that got to do with the discussion at hand. Those comments were un warranted. Pls mind it.

vv ramesh · Post by **vv ramesh** » 22 Dec 2008, 13:58

Vainika

yes you proved u r jobless...

vv ramesh · Post by **vv ramesh** » 22 Dec 2008, 13:59

Accepted cooooooooooooool kapali sir

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 22 Dec 2008, 14:01

@@ vv ramesh, sadasive iyer

vainika is a very a talented and an exteremely knowledgeble person He doesn't post to malign an artist since he himself is a performing artist and well known in music circle.

You two have regsitered only today and your posts are in exterme praise of Abishek.

Please mind your words before making such posts else you will never be taken seriously in the forum

anandabhairavi · Post by **anandabhairavi** » 22 Dec 2008, 14:14

Oh !! they registered today?Seems both are same persons !! and some relation of Abishek? Hmm =(

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 22 Dec 2008, 14:14

Oh this is quite okay. Given the provocative nature of the obit I posted, I knew caustic responses would definitely come my way, and I have no issues with the tone of any of the rejoinders

I appreciate the zeal and fervour of AR's fan club and the artiste's extraordinary ability to reach out to (most of) his audience , though I would continue to stand by my point reg. rAga lakShaNas...

iamkirinlemon · Post by **iamkirinlemon** » 22 Dec 2008, 14:33

Personally I do not object to extended unornamented suddha M in nilambari (try singing the prayogam for yourself and extending M, and decide whether you like it or not, I think it delivers a different and very pleasant impact). Nor do I object to hints of N and M in mohanam (the hints already appear in standard gamakas in the ragam, and we accept shades of kakali N in kambodi for instance which initially I thought was even more "wrong"). I therefore consider this a relatively minor stylistic objection and that's fair, you can't argue right and wrong here, but certainly nothing has approached the dramatic level of ragams being killed (so, coolkapali and rajumds, as excitable as vv ramesh appears to be, you cannot deny that vainika himself started this thread in a mean-spirited fashion by maligning another artist).

A raga and its lakshana will not evolve unless artists try things like this. Abhishek Raghuram, as per that rediff interview, himself admits to wanting to push boundaries. In my opinion, it was a good concert, and more importantly, it is something you cannot hear from any other artist today. If I want to hear a traditional treatment of CM, I know hundreds of places to find it. If I want something more, Abhishek is one of the few people that is capable of delivering it. Find a recording if you can and come to your own judgment. Ultimately it is the rasika who defines how the music grows and evolves.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 22 Dec 2008, 14:49

iamkirinlemon,

Vainika's dramatic post (and headline) was intended to drive home the point that while innovation is always welcome in CM, there is a framework in which this should be done. Raga Lakshana is an important attribute. In the case of "Nilambari" there are no 2 schools of thought either to fall back as a safety net.

Nevertheless there is no doubt that Abhishek is a young and immensely talended artist with a great manodhrama. Time is on his side. I am pasting a link below on my comments on Abhishek in an earlier thread (4)

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... h2008.html

iamkirinlemon · Post by **iamkirinlemon** » 22 Dec 2008, 14:54

cienu,

That is a fair point. I would respond by saying I think a more relaxed interpretation of this framework is required. And in fact I would say there are INFINITELY many schools of thought on how a ragam is to be treated - one per performing artist. No two artists do the same thing. If I believe every prayogam should be a certain way, then I can write a computer program to sing ragam. The belief that "This prayogam SHOULD be sung this way and otherwise is wrong", for such small things, is in my opinion not healthy for the growth of CM. For the concert in question, the objections raised do not draw the identity of the ragam into doubt, ESPECIALLY when viewed in a larger context. The rasika should have an open mind.

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 22 Dec 2008, 20:35

There is nothing new that Abhishek sing in this style. I too attended his MA concert last year and posted that he signs differently (There are no classical pidis and more of up and down the scale). May be, he will learn over period of time. Age is in his side, and he is under able guidance of PSNarayanaswamy and his grand father / grand mother (his grandmom is lalgudi's sister). Hope he restrain himself upto some extent and still continue to improvise.

-hari

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Dec 2008, 21:42

vainika... you make strong points. Makes me curious of your opinion of the music of Dr. M. Balamuralikrishna? I think he attempts to render ragas with a different blend of gamakas that makes them sound fresh and unique. Abishek seems to be inspired by similar ideas. Unfortunately I have missed both his concerts so far. I hope I am lucky enough to attend at least a couple of his concerts before the season is over.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Dec 2008, 21:56

vainika... you make strong points. Makes me curious of your opinion of the music of Dr. M. Balamuralikrishna? I think he attempts to render ragas with a different blend of gamakas that makes them sound fresh and unique. Abishek seems to be inspired by similar ideas. Unfortunately I have missed both concerts of Shek so far. I hope I am lucky enough to attend at least a couple before the season is over.

falafel · Post by **falafel** » 22 Dec 2008, 23:01

im late to this discussion padron, i am just reading all this. i was just participating in another thread dealing with similar issues. what is innovation? is some innovation ok and other innovation less ok? is it innovative when someone sings an ata talam varnam smack in the middle of a concert? but less innovative to stretch a raga's traditional prayogams? i'm curious.

i attended this music academy concert of abishek. i thought it was somewhat refreshing to hear a different intrepretation of ragas like neelambari and mohanam. i think that makes him unique, maybe. do we want everyone to sing the same ragas? i definitely dont.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 23 Dec 2008, 00:47

As the other forum regulars have already said, vainika/ramki is not capable of malice. His opinion is based on firm technical grounds that comes from years of association with a hoary school of Indian classical music.

I do not have the benefit of so much gnaanam myself. In fact, when I bumped into him at Woodlands the night of the concert, I was left a little red faced (to the extent the colour shows up on Mahogany skin!) when my cautious endorsement of the youngster's Mohanam met with a shake of disapproval!

I will maintain, though, that I found Abhisek's approach engrossing and even enjoyable although I could see that he was testing the boundaries of the raga (and the patience of some sections of the audience!). I have a small weakness for musicians who seek something beyond the obvious.

But I can also understand why that irks the classicists - the grammar of our music is what makes it so special...mindless tampering is like defacing a monument. While no one can take away an an artiste's right to innovate, Abhisek will have to live with the fact that his path will step on many a conserative toe. And even the great Balamurali whom someone mentioned, could not completely shrug off his reputation for having a suspect sense of aesthetics.

I did not hear the Nilambari but I would personally be less tolerant of deviations in such ragas. While Mohanam is a scale with some scope for interpretation, Nilambari is no more than a set of musical phrases and is unlikely to be able to withstand intrusive interventions of the sort that has been described..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Dec 2008, 04:45

iamkirinlemon wrote: The belief that "This prayogam SHOULD be sung this way and otherwise is wrong", for such small things, is in my opinion not healthy for the growth of CM. For the concert in question, the objections raised do not draw the identity of the ragam into doubt, ESPECIALLY when viewed in a larger context.

Building on Vijay's point about not messing too much with Nilambari for fear of losing it, I wonder what Ramki's opinion on what 'iamkirinlemon' writes above. In the larger context, how much of Nilambari was lost? Was the identify of nIlAmbarI established without any doubts first? We all know nIAmbarI when we hear it from the overall raga familiarity, would a casual listener who has that much level of familiarity with the raga find something odd? Was it encroaching on any other raga? These are not meant to defend Abhishek's approach, I just want to know for the sake of knowing.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 23 Dec 2008, 07:04

Let us agree that what the vocalist sang was Abhishek-ki-Nilambari

If there can be Mian-ki-Malhar, there can be Abhishek-ki-Nilambari.

With that simple re-naming, the controversy ends immediately.

As to the comment that while folks like Abhishek would be folk heroes and vainika would be fit only for lec-dems, the reasons for lec-dems is that we have folk heroes corrupting Carnatic Music. Somebody needs to periodically remind the public at large and practicing musicians what the raga lakshana is.

Take for instance Gaulipantu. The lakshana geetham very clearly states it is an upanga raga of Mayamalavagaulai. No one can then argue that it can take prathi madhyama or that it is a bhashanga swara. Yet we have one whole school singing Gaulipantu with prathi madhyama. In fact, it is rare to hear it rendered with suddha madhyama. If this is an instance of evolution taking its own course, then by that standard for evolution we should all revert to swinging from tree to tree. It is time for some people who consider Abhishek's Nilambari to be evolution to check their backsides to see if they have started growing a prehensile tail.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 23 Dec 2008, 08:02

Perfect Harimau!

IMO, the ultimate effect of some of these impassioned defenses by 'die-hard' fans/sycophants (call them whatever) of these artists is usually contrary to that intended by the posters - they sound silly, petulant, and in the ultimate analysis, make the artist sound silly as well. If the artist's caliber is truly such that the criticisms posted are indeed inappropriate, then, it is that very same caliber that should be the rejoinder - not the clamor of two-bit, ha'-penny rasikas like us!

vv ramesh · Post by **vv ramesh** » 23 Dec 2008, 09:16

Well said harimau thats more exciting.

Jigyaasa · Post by **Jigyaasa** » 23 Dec 2008, 09:42

I wonder if vv ramesh even understands the nature and purport of harimau's comments... He's now stepping on his own foot!

vv ramesh · Post by **vv ramesh** » 23 Dec 2008, 09:54

pl wait for me.. of course i am in track boss.

vv ramesh · Post by **vv ramesh** » 23 Dec 2008, 10:17

One should have the courage to sing nilambari as he sang the other day and now he has got the reptutation for his own nilambari, itself is a credit like u said yourself in your post.
Abhishek-ki-nilambari.
Rasikas knows about who is corrupting music and who is not. Thats why Abhishek is at the helm and entertaing rasikas , and other few people sitting near computer and do unwanted comments about those concerts. keep doing it. No one gonna stop it.

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 23 Dec 2008, 11:04

VV Ramesh....ur comments are quite stupid to say the least. I request the regulars who take time off from their hectic schedules to have a chat with fellow raikas to just ignore this guy. He is PATHETIC.

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 23 Dec 2008, 11:06

I am not worried if that offends u VVR, bcos u deserve more than that, but i am really sorry if i offend guys like vijay and vainika with my language. Pls tell this guy that we are all not jobless vettis who want to waste their time typing nonsense.

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 23 Dec 2008, 11:09

Also, VVR u r a big nuisance. Can u stop TYPING ur ignorance to full throated glory? ITS A REQUEST, if i were abhishek i would have completely disowned you.