TM Krishna - Music Academy - 27 Dec 2008

dhanyasi · Post by **dhanyasi** » 30 Dec 2008, 07:59

SSK wrote:
The legendary vidwans of the past never felt the need to take any credit, for any thing that they felt innovative, largely because canatic music, offers infinite scope for innovation, within the confines of tradition. In all their humilty the great vidwans of the past considered innovation as part of their service to music. This was and should be very natural to any vidwan.

SSK.. I am not sure how you know that for a fact.. Ego and a sense of achievement and recognition drives and will drive musicians, artists among many others"¦. I bet if rasikas.org would have been there in the times of Karaikudi Subbarama Iyer the topic would have still been discussed, though neither KSI (or TMK in this instance) never might have indented to take credit for it.. or do they?.. we will never know.. It is pointless discussing this in this field where most of the composers stamp their name in the compositions and there absolutely nothing wrong in it"¦ If I was one of them i will patent the compositions

SSK wrote:One of the most important thing to note here is that the ultimate goal of carnatic music is to lift the layman, skilled rasikas, vidwans alike from the world of ordinary to the realm of extradionary through rendition that is full of bhava and rasa.

In my opinion it is very hard thing to accomplish... if else how does one explain Brindamma appreciated from Semmagudi to Unnkrishnan but known to few in the popular circle"¦ there people who think "koniyadina"

Brahmam · Post by **Brahmam** » 30 Dec 2008, 23:52

the reply to this question "why bairavi varnam is singularly monumental? " can be answered in a few words or can even be submitted as thesis. i wish i had all the time to......

in short, Kalyani is a krama sampurna raga. Kanada is not krama but not bhashanga as well.

Whereas bairavi is a ghana bhashanga asampurna ragam. The prayogas are time honoured. handling of dwi dhaivatam gives it its unique flavour. The singular monumental Bhairavi ata tala varnam is so exhaustive and encompasses all the rare prayogas, covering lower P and touching upper M, with jaarus enriching the swara patterns that hop octaves, and many such spl aspects to its credit. Probably thats why the composer stopped with one all time composition of his.

Kanada varnam as a composition is not highly evolved like Bairavi. Kalyani again is not and cannot be exhaustive in covering the ragam.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 31 Dec 2008, 01:12

Brahmam, like you I am great fan of the varnam and agree that it is one of the greatest compositions in CM. But I am not sure whether one can claim it is unique without sounding subjective.

To respond to your points, bhashangas/sampurnas etc. are not quite relevant when we are discussing the merit of a composition. Also pretty much all the points in your second para are true of many varnas. Incidentally Bhairavi varnam goes down to lower madhyamam and I believe Adiyapayyar has composed at least one more varnam - there was a thread on this a couple of years back.

Again, while Viribhoni is a very elaborate detail of the ragam, I am not sure I'd call it exhaustive - several composer have taken the raga forward since...In fact the kaanada varnam may be a more "definitive" composition as varnams in such ragas often tend to be. Even there I would be careful about using the word exhaustive.

Notions of evolution are highly subjective and while it is a perfectly valid opinion, it cannot be stated as a fact.

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 31 Dec 2008, 10:20

I was given to understand that the key element which is the driver behind Carnatic music is bhakti-it is evident in the compositions of the Trinity and several other composers.
Is the element of bhakti visible in the lyrics of a varnam or on par with a kriti?Does a varnam tend to bring out the bhakti bhAva that is so evidently visible in Swarajathi or Balagopala??i am not too sure....
if so,does a varnam make a good candidate for a main piece?

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 31 Dec 2008, 11:04

vasanthakokilam wrote:Balaji, I understand why Misra Nadai Adi ( 7 times 8 = 56 ) and Chathusra Nadai Ata ( 4 times 14 = 56 ) are complimentary to each other. When Shri. Seetharama Sharma sang it in misra nadai, did the varnam sound any different melodically or rhythmically or the thala keeping kriyas are the only difference?

Member Vasanthakokilam you hit the nail in the head. This is the most intriguing question troubling my mind for quite sometime.

Recently I played for Mohana Varnam in which the artiste sang Tisra Nadai directly from Charanam (Sannuthaanga sri). The artiste instead of singing Chatusram and Tisram later, started the charanam directly in tisram. When i heard the recording it sounded as though I was playing only in Chatusra Nadai at a faster pace. As the tala was also not audible in the recording it is difficult to find out whether the artiste is singing in Tisra Nadai or Chatursra Nadai. Moreover when the artiste finally came back to Charanam after the last line she sang in Chatusra Nadai then only it was clearly visible that all along it was Tisram. (I have played and i know it was tisram but while listening there was no difference is wat i want to stress ... read on for more)

This is one side of the Story. Another side is that while accompanying it has always been a mystery whether to accompany for the song or the tala or the inherent laya. It is the individual artiste's judgement to decide then and there. On that day i decided that i would play exactly as the varnam goes whether it is tisra nadai or chatusra nadai. Assume the same varnam is being sung at a faster pace than the usual pace (irrespective of Nadai) what we will do ? we will of course play as per the varna lines and the chittas. So i did exactly that and there i found out that how difficult is it to make the real feel of tisram for kritis that are already set. More over i told the main artiste that if you are doing tisram of the Pallavi or charanam of a varnam then it is better to do chatusram first and then tisram next to differentiate for the invisible audience.

And hence my conclusion goes like this (and there may be counters also --> which i welcome since it will enhance my accompaniment in future, if anyone else is able to give a better option) For playing set kritis (like Varnas, Pancharatnas or tillanas) irrespective of their nadai it will be appropriate to play for the song than for the tala or laya. Hence whether the Viribhoni Varnam is sung in Misra Nadai Adi Tala or chatusra Nadai Ata Tala the playing style wont change. It will be the task of the main artiste to maintain the Misra Nadai Adi tala where he can prove his prowess. (If i had missed out on some point let me get bk to it later)

J.Balaji

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 31 Dec 2008, 15:10

Thanks Balaji sir - that was quite detailed and insightful.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 31 Dec 2008, 15:20

Does the choice of composition really matter for main/ submain status? For me, as long as the composition has a viable neraval line, it will do. So many yesteryear masters never even sang krithis thoroughly, bringing out the beauty in each word of the sahitya, etc. MMI used to race through songs like Niravathi Sukhada and Ma Janaki to get to the neraval or swaras (manodharmam was his forte), and in renditions like that, it is the specific neraval or kalpana swaras or other manodharma component that sticks out in my mind but not the krithi rendition itself. When the krithi itself is dealt with elaborately and patiently, like many of TMK's chowka kala renditions (i.e. Dakshinamurthe in Shankarabharanam I heard at YGP two weeks ago), even if the artiste stops at just the krithi rendition, I'd feel immensely satisfied. With such a rendition, excessive manodharmam would detract from the krithi itself. As such, I do not believe the composition being chosen is as important as the WAY in which it is rendered in the concert. And not everybody can strike such a brilliant balance between composition and manodharmam as MDR did (and in renditions where he'd sing Endaro - krithi itself - for 20 odd minutes, he'd restrict neraval and swaras to 10 min only).

P.S. Amongst varnams, along with the ones Vijay has mentioned, I absolutely adore the Reethigowla varnam, and even more than that, the Narayana Gowla varnam. I would LOVE to see TMK take up Maguva Ninne elaborately!

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 31 Dec 2008, 16:43

The debate whether the RTV sung by Krishna is traditional or otherwise is futile. He has a large following and draws huge crowds. The bottom line is he may do any thing in the name of innovation and if it goes down well with his fans ,then why should be concerned about the traditional rasikas who scoff at such innovations?..He is like Kunnakudi Vaidhyanathan who had a very large following and played to please them . If supporters of traditional carnatic music are seething with anger because of such innovations then they better stay away from such concerts. Such innovations will last only as long as the rasikas accept it. If it is otherwise you can be sure that the sabhas will not give a platform for such exercise. I am not supporting or am against such innovation. This seems to be the order of the day. Bye Ragjay

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 31 Dec 2008, 22:03

Dear Bilahari,
I just wish to point out that MMI HAS RENDERED MANY PIECES either briefly or in great detail. Actually he has rendered BOTH Niravathi Sugada & Maa Janaki (along with others) as MAIN pieces of concerts as well as sub-pieces. His extensive Niravals at Appropriate places is remarkable to those who know the subtelities of the compositions.It depends on his particular concert emphasis. Like Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar he was one of the few who could bring out the greatness of the compositions in three minutes or one hour. He was rare in this regard. I have heard his concerts for over a decade(1953-1967 & rest in recordings of concerts).VKV

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 31 Dec 2008, 22:41

VKV sir, I too am a die-hard MMI fan, but it was just my personal opinion that in such pacy renditions I would remember the manodharmam rather than the krithi. I did not mean to question his music at all! Rereading my post, I can see how it might appear to be a criticism of MMI's music but I just did not know how to express my idea better. Please excuse me.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 31 Dec 2008, 22:52

@ Bilahari

Yes, you have a point. Even I sometimes feel that big alapanai (maybe thanam) followed by huge kriti and big neravals and big svarams make the time for the main piece too big ... and even a favourite main ragam can be made boring by this.

Taking a smaller kriti and decorating it with a lot of extempore raga elaboration (in alapanai, maybe tanam, neraval and svarams) is almost like an RTP imho.
---
And I think that kriti can be made to stand out if it is finished before neraval and svarams begin.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Dec 2008, 23:39

There are certain krithis that can make neravel and kalpanaswarams of artists sound ordinary. Just yesterday, I was listening to the rendition of thalli ninnu nera-kalyani-syamasastri by an artist I adore immensely. You all know how unique a song construction this piece is. The niraval and kalpanaswarams sounded very good and top notch. But when the artist got back to the song, it was quite astonishing to feel the difference in the inherent quality of music between the kalpanaswarams and the song itself and how my favorite artist looked ordinary in spite of doing an excellent job.

Now I am on a quest to hear more renditions of this piece to see who has done an adequate job of niraval and kalpanaswaram to match this piece.

This is related to my own personal taste/wish that the niraval and kalpanaswaram should incorporate some of the laya aspects of the surrounding song. I realize this is a minority opinion and most of the artists do not care for it since it curtails their freedom a bit. The same way many mridangamists, during thani, try to play the lay patters of the artists' niraval and kalpanaswarams, I want the artists to try to sing niraval and kalpanaswaram in the laya framework of the song.

For many songs it probably does not matter much. But, for a song like 'thalli ninnu' with its strong and characteristic laya patterns, the artist can exhibit a lot of restrained creativity by improvising within the laya framework set out by Syama Sastri in this song. I think that is much more difficult to do than the flattened out multi avarthana swara sequences with a templated laya structures.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 01 Jan 2009, 00:02

VK, do you have any particular rendition in mind where the laya framework of a krithi has been followed or at least considered in neraval/ swaras? This is a very intriguing point you raise, and not one I have ever considered before. Would Chembai's neraval in Parithana Michithe (there's one on Sangeethapriya's tribute site to him) qualify? I have always been especially fascinated by that neraval and just couldn't put a finger on the reason.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 01 Jan 2009, 03:06

VKV sir, I too am a die-hard MMI fan, but it was just my personal opinion that in such pacy renditions I would remember the manodharmam rather than the krithi. I did not mean to question his music at all! Rereading my post, I can see how it might appear to be a criticism of MMI's music but I just did not know how to express my idea better. Please excuse me.
Dear Bilhari,
I am for criticism so no need to feel bad etc. ANY fan of MMI is automatically a friend of mine & soul mate!.... It took me 8 years before I could open my mouth & discuss music with MMI. Same is true of the many greats I was lucky to interact with. As a result I WAS LUCKY TO KNOW why THEY DID WHAT they did! I was hoping that the various analyses would be more based on studies as opposed to reactions of persons. Unfortunately this forum while interesting does not appear to enable one to discuss things at a "deeper" level.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jan 2009, 03:25

Unfortunately this forum while interesting does not appear to enable one to discuss things at a "deeper" level.

This forum is what we make it out to be. So you should not feel constrained. If it is very technical, there is always the technical section. If you are referring to enthusiam of members for such topics, give it a try and see what happens. Differences in opinions and perspectives, grand agreement or apathy -- all are possible outcomes.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jan 2009, 04:48

Bilahari: No concrete example to quote right now. I will listen to that Chembai piece and see if it fits this model. Actually, I do not know apriori what all an artist can do within the framework I am thinking of but there are a lot of creative artists out there and I am hoping they will come up with something along these lines and still not feel restrained in their manodharmam.

My main issue is, I can not feel the differences in laya structures during a multi-avarthana kalpanaswarams between a misra chapu or adi. But when they get back to the song line, you sense the layam of the song.

For example, some MC songs take the 3+2+2 and arrange it differently over multiple avarthanams:

( 3 + 2 + 2 ) + ( 3 + 2 + 2) --> ( 2 ) + ( 2 + 2 ) + ( 3 + 2 + 2 ) + 1

or

( 3 + 2 + 2 ) + ( 3 + 2 + 2) --> ( 1) + ( 2 + 2 ) + ( 3 + 2 + 2 ) + 2

or

( 3 + 2 + 2 ) + ( 3 + 2 + 2) --> ( 2 ) + (3 + 2 + 2 ) + ( 3 + 2 )

Normally, these are thought to be misra chapu with different eduppus. But with such odd count laya like MC, composers like syama sastri
had a field day playing with alternate bunch of these structures over multiple avarthanams. The building block of 3 + 2 + 2 is there but it is broken up and put
back together in different forms, with occasional strict 3 + 2 + 2 to make sure the base MC feel is not lost.

I am just wildly suggesting ( I know it is easy to just suggest ) that artists can do something similar in niravals and kalpanaswarams by periodically bringing back the laya structures of the song
while improvising variations. This way, a long sequence of kalpanaswaram has a good chance of sounding perceptibly different in the context of a misra chapu song vs an adi song.

For all I know, this may be standard practise by the artists, I may not be feeling the laya right.

(If this gets too much into laya discussion, we can move them later to the right section. )

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 01 Jan 2009, 13:33

VK,
You can give try at paridAnamichchite by GNB-TC-PSP. The neraval seems to have the same KC flavour throughout. This concert is the one with BrOchEvArevarurA (kamas) as the main.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 01 Jan 2009, 19:13

bilahari wrote:Does the choice of composition really matter for main/ submain status? For me, as long as the composition has a viable neraval line, it will do. So many yesteryear masters never even sang krithis thoroughly, bringing out the beauty in each word of the sahitya, etc. MMI used to race through songs like Niravathi Sukhada and Ma Janaki to get to the neraval or swaras (manodharmam was his forte), and in renditions like that, it is the specific neraval or kalpana swaras or other manodharma component that sticks out in my mind but not the krithi rendition itself. When the krithi itself is dealt with elaborately and patiently, like many of TMK's chowka kala renditions (i.e. Dakshinamurthe in Shankarabharanam I heard at YGP two weeks ago), even if the artiste stops at just the krithi rendition, I'd feel immensely satisfied. With such a rendition, excessive manodharmam would detract from the krithi itself. As such, I do not believe the composition being chosen is as important as the WAY in which it is rendered in the concert. And not everybody can strike such a brilliant balance between composition and manodharmam as MDR did (and in renditions where he'd sing Endaro - krithi itself - for 20 odd minutes, he'd restrict neraval and swaras to 10 min only).

P.S. Amongst varnams, along with the ones Vijay has mentioned, I absolutely adore the Reethigowla varnam, and even more than that, the Narayana Gowla varnam. I would LOVE to see TMK take up Maguva Ninne elaborately!

I read in a book on CM that MMI always sang some songs without RNS and those are like shri mathrubootham, O jagadamba etc. Just to stress on the deity.
I also noticed that MMI rushes to neraval in Maa Janaki in his commercial release. But I guess noone could even render this song after he popularised it just to stress on the krirthi. It could never appeal to anyone as those songs are popular for the neraval and swaras. I have heard this from SSI (recorded) and then live by TVS and also Gayathri Girish. But the feel that MMI gives is a magic.

ram_vocalist · Post by **ram_vocalist** » 16 Jan 2009, 14:09

I love TMK's concerts .. but Viriboni as main item is outright gross ..the beauty of carnatic music lies in demonstartion of Manodhrama within its frameworks (definitely not a limitation as others might suggest) .. and it will be challenging for the artist too to just execute that .. and it is where his/her craftmanship is appreciated .. if things like these are allowed anybody can perform anyway .. there will be no uniqueness and claim themselves to be innovative.

Aztec2012 · Post by **Aztec2012** » 19 Jan 2009, 09:09

Hello ,

I had attended the concert. walked out of the concert in between.Not that I was busy or had some other work. Could not sit. As usual the hall was damn packed. He knows to make the auditorium full by bringing too many students and relatives , neighbors,friends, etc . He s trying to place himself different . I hardly see any difference. Having learnt the concepts of RTP from the great legend Shri. Chengalpet Ranganathan he should try singing great rtps in different thalam rather just singing in Adi talam and Kandajathi Triputa thalam. Why cant he render Chatsura Ragam Tanam PallaviÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s instead of attempting varanam as main piece ??? Why cant he sing RTP as the main piece. All this chatsura RTP are renedered in Studios after several takes. Any artist can sing a ragam for a hr . It is not at all big deal as people state. Any artist of his status can sing.

I remember his interviews talking about commercial carnatic music . He says for our survival we have to take it commercial or else none of the artist would take it as a profession. But Mr.TMK has forgotten about customer satisfaction. The evolving concept of commercialism. For all his attitude problem and arrogant way of handling people , sabha, rasika s we should sack him by not attending his concerts. Only then he will understand the real meaning of commercialism.

I saw of one the rasika walking to him and requesting a song. He replied, " You donÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t have to decide what I should sing, Come and attend the concert and leave. DonÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t do all these things " These were the exact words used by him. He would be more than 50 yrs old man. He was shocked he could not reply saw him walking off silently. It is serious attitude problem.

Amruthavarshini · Post by **Amruthavarshini** » 19 Jan 2009, 09:14

If what Aztec2012 says is true, then, I am sure it is quite a serious problem. i cant imagine a present day young musician could act so arrongantly with a rasika.

Aztec2012 · Post by **Aztec2012** » 19 Jan 2009, 09:30

MrTMK talks abt Bhakthi, tradition , Great legends.. If he had admired the legends he wud not behave so . Yesteryears musicians were not just musicians .. most of them were personification of simplicity and perfection....

Aztec2012 · Post by **Aztec2012** » 19 Jan 2009, 09:38

My personal experience last at krishna gana sabha .. He was singing Pibare rama rasam .. I love that song. No doubt he presents very well .. I took a snap thru my mobile when he was singing it ... Inbetween the song he stopped the singing and asked me to stop taking pics. It was such an embracing moment. The whole auditorium was looking at me ... It is out of the love that we have towards ur music we take pics.....He cud not accept this small thing ....

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 19 Jan 2009, 10:09

See, no matter how condescending TMK might be to rasikas, people will keep thronging to his concerts and buying his CDs and there will never be a need for him to change his attitude. The fact is he can get away with such behaviour because he does happen to produce high quality music and that is essentially what an audience wants from a concert- good music.

For me, an issue like this always boils down to whether an artiste and his art are separable. If we listen to good music coming from this artiste whom we personally dislike, can we appreciate the music? Or out of our preconceived hatred for an artiste, would be be more likely to rubbish his music even on occasions where it might be good? I don't for a moment believe there is a correct answer to this question. Personally, I would LIKE to be able to separate music from the man (and I admire TMK's music very much and am increasingly detesting the man), and once I start listening to a concert, I can generally forget who's making this music and it's the music and only the music which matters at the moment. But sometimes I do wonder if I should sacrifice some good music (not like there's a paucity of it) to specifically avoid an artiste to protest his sickening behaviour to his own consumers. Would any self-respecting company treat its customers this way (now that music is apparently a commercial thing, we may as well extend the analogy)? I can't say I would object to people doing the latter either. A message has to be sent and for money-minded individuals, lessons can only be taught by material reduction in album sales, concert ticket sales, etc.

But right now for me, let him continue putting out good music and I'll keep listening to it (the music, not the man).

Aztec2012 · Post by **Aztec2012** » 19 Jan 2009, 10:36

Let me put it this way .. U go to cafe coffee day .to enjoy the ecstasy of coffee... When u place a order employee behaves or serves u in bad way.. Would u accept it ? Wont u ask him ? Will you feel like going back to CCD again ? Wont those experiences refrain ur visits? Inspite of loving the coffee ....u wud atleast stop visiting that branch .. Its like that with TMK s concert..Of course his abundance knowledge , great voice is simply out of world. I cannot comment abt his knowledge or find mistakes in his music.. Its not fault findin its just an expectation from a fan.... To be a legend not only music matters... When we talk abt MS .. Do u think only music that strikes in our mind ?? No her simplicity , smile , Way of respecting people ... too many in the list...When he sees music as a commercial aspect in all ways.. Then it his duty to fulfill the wants of his customers...

Should we call it Adangam (in tamil ) from a big fan .. I dont know ....

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 19 Jan 2009, 10:50

Bilahari , I agree with you. Ideally I woluld prefer to separate the music from the artist.

But as the saying goes, thoughts become words.

The attitude of an artist will slowly start refelecting in his music.

A bakthi and emotion laden music will emanate from an artist only if he is oriented in that way.

Music of MS / DKJ / KVN is so appealing to me because of thier bhavam and I feel that an artist with an arrogant attitude can never get it, at the most he may imitate.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Jan 2009, 10:59

Bilahari,
I agree with your concluding line. Let him keep putting out good music and rasikAs will keep listening to him.
Another point: star musicians like him do not have to fill the hall with friends and relatives. They are there because they want to hear them too. At times, I know it is difficult for the musician and the sabhAs to provide seats for all kith and kin. I know that sometimes, even kith and kin buy a ticket to enter the hall.
While I have not experienced TMK's behavior in the manner described by several of the forumites, I do know he can 'come across' as not so tolerant a person with sound men and photographers. Then again, how many of us as rasikAs can put up with bad sound and clicking cameras? Not that I am saying that all the above incidents are fabricated. With all the blows that are aimed at his behavior, I wonder how many are justified. No, I am not defending TMK here. I have this nagging feeling that he 'comes across' worse than what he means. More tact, a little more tolerance on his part?
The profession has so many pressures--just as it is with most rasikAs. When we are under stress, our reaction to it goes unnoticed most of the time because we are not as visible as performing artistes. I am not sure if other musicians are exemplary in their behaviorl. The very polite one may not mean it and the ones who mean it may not say it.
Yes, Bilahari. What they offer us in music is our concern. The rest is not our business. By the way, there were great men and women among old timers, but not all of them were faultless in their behavior!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 19 Jan 2009, 11:50

I had a very good experience with TMK once about 4 years back in kalAkruthi sabhA in egmore (they used to conduct it in a marriage hall near dasaprakAsh hotel). This sabha certainly does not have good patronage and there were only about 25 people towards the end of main. I asked Shri TMK to sing a RTP , tmk excused me in a polite manner and instead sang a long rAgamAliga slokham IIRC maulav gangA of appiah dikshitar. To that extent he was nice to me.

Unfortunately looks like TMK is getting more and more popular for the wrong reasons.To me there is just an excess stick here, particularly if rasikas make calls like we rasikas have to boycott it is just plain nonsense. I am with bilahari here that art and artist have to be clearly seperated.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 19 Jan 2009, 12:41

Folks let us not get carried away by the accusations that a few (mostly anonymous) posters level against the artiste. I can make up any number of anecdotes against pretty much any artiste - doesn't make them true.

Like Arasi I have never seen him behave arrogantly - in fact my experiences have been quite positive. But TMK certainly has strong opinions and seems to enjoy voicing them in a very public manner. This can rub a lot of people the wrong way and the conservative CM community is not exactly appreciative of precocious comments from youngsters.

I fear that this may turn out to be a huge distraction for him - my unsolicited advice is that the artiste be more diplomatic about touchy issues and keep it in the private domain - there are too many touchy (and influential) sensitivities out there...once he grows a few more grey hair, I am sure his views would become more acceptable!

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 19 Jan 2009, 22:50

Folks,

I am quite shocked by the incessent bashing of TMK. All because he dared question some of the opinions on rasikas? I think the people at rasikas need to consider this before reacting the way they have in the other thread on TMK and Bhakthi. If you feel strongly abt bhakthi, then tolerance to other people's opionions is perhaps the first watchword. And clearly, some of the individuals on here found it hard to digest some of TMK's opinions. Thats fine, but railing, ranting and hateful words abt the individual on a continue basis gets old soon. That sort of response is what can be expected of "fanatics", and the moderators (members first, however u call them) on here clearly know how to fan the flames of "hate".

While this forum started off with the best of intentions, it is pretty obvious that it no longer can claim to truly be a constructive forum. It is going down the path of the erstwhile sangeetham, and I am not saying this in an ominous way. The individuals masquerading as moderators and members first on here definitely have their own agenda, and are gossip prone. TMK comes across as arrogant, but I dont believe he is. He is quite open to suggestions abt his music, and I know this because I have definitely interacted with him in several instances. I am not saying we need not voice our opinions abt the man and his music, but the reams and reams of hate I am seeing here, and the threats, curses etc are just not in good taste.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 20 Jan 2009, 01:40

Aztec2012 wrote:I took a snap thru my mobile when he was singing it ... Inbetween the song he stopped the singing and asked me to stop taking pics. It was such an embracing moment. The whole auditorium was looking at me ... It is out of the love that we have towards ur music we take pics.....He cud not accept this small thing ....

Aztec2012... You have not learned your lesson. In your selfish attempt (definitely not out of your love for music or concern for your fellow audience member) to capture your photo, you were disturbing the artiste, accompanists and the audience. You were hauled up for this. Now stop behaving like a child, own up to your mistake and promise all of us you will not do it again. May be next time you see some other nitwit try this, you can try dissuading them from attempting the same as a way for expiating for your past mistake.

PS: Would it be too much to ask you to spell your words correctly as a token of consideration for fellow forum members?

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 20 Jan 2009, 09:59

sureshvv wrote:
Aztec2012 wrote:I took a snap thru my mobile when he was singing it ... Inbetween the song he stopped the singing and asked me to stop taking pics. It was such an embracing moment. The whole auditorium was looking at me ... It is out of the love that we have towards ur music we take pics.....He cud not accept this small thing ....
Aztec2012... You have not learned your lesson. In your selfish attempt (definitely not out of your love for music or concern for your fellow audience member) to capture your photo, you were disturbing the artiste, accompanists and the audience. You were hauled up for this. Now stop behaving like a child, own up to your mistake and promise all of us you will not do it again. May be next time you see some other nitwit try this, you can try dissuading them from attempting the same as a way for expiating for your past mistake.

PS: Would it be too much to ask you to spell your words correctly as a token of consideration for fellow forum members?

Sureshvv,

On the point of distraction by photo , money collecting in sabhas etc: I cannot even concentrate listening to the songs when such things are done, how can a singer
focus on his concert when lights are flashing. especially the alapana. It is mind boggling, how the top artists deliver high quality music day after day in spite all those troubles.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 20 Jan 2009, 10:04

Aztec2012 wrote:Hello ,

I saw of one the rasika walking to him and requesting a song. He replied, " You donÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t have to decide what I should sing, Come and attend the concert and leave. DonÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t do all these things " These were the exact words used by him. He would be more than 50 yrs old man. He was shocked he could not reply saw him walking off silently. It is serious attitude problem.

Difficult to believe this incident.

I saw him in one of the concert singing Mokshamu kalada after a request by audience in Odukathur mutt.
The song was delivered as though he planned it. Meaning with utmost sincereity.

I had a few email interactions on thanking him on his blore concerts, in the last two years, he comes across
as a very nice person , almost thanking me in every occassion.

I once out of my enthusiasm, mentioned some raga that he can consider for Blore concerts, and he replied
with a nice reply thaT he will try to include . Considering the effort in concert planning, compromises that a
popular artist needs to do for attracting general rasikas, that is the most apt reply. Those replies characterise
him as a very genuiene rasika friendly person.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 20 Jan 2009, 11:49

Yes. Some of these professional photographers act so self important and show no concern that they are covering a live event with an audience. I have seen TMK haul one of them up at Sastry hall (I think he stopped singing, gave a big fake smile and asked the photographer if he will now move on

) and admired his taking a stand.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 20 Jan 2009, 12:13

Hmm...I tend to get a little touchy about photography since I like to take photos myself. I guess the key is to be as unobtrusive as possible - turn off the flash and try and find a discrete position, preferably on the side and wait until the main piece is over.

Photographers are advised to grow a thick skin (which is one of my weakest points) but the general rule is to ask before turning the lens on strangers. Unfortunately in a concert situation this is often impossible. So if the hall does not explicitysay anything about photography I assume that it is allowed. In dance programmes, the artistes usually announce their preferences usually saying that flash photography is not allowed (which implies that non-flash photography is OK).

I think most artistes are Ok with photography - I have seen people (in the audience) taking photos of Krishna at fairly close range and he did not object. I guess it is partly how you go about it and partly, the artiste's mood. If you are discrete, don't use flash and wait for the tukkada section, I don't think most artistes would have a problem (although over-enthusiastic volunteers might). OTOH, if you prance around in front of the stage when Tisram is being done, I can understand the artiste's agitation.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 20 Jan 2009, 12:41

Getting back to the concert itself, another reason I really missed it is the Bilahari rendition. Naa Jeevadhara is probably my favourite composition in the raga and is so rarely performed nowadays. My favourite renditions are probably by violinists TNK/Rajam (commercial with brilliant alapanai), LGJ (after another brilliant raga), and also Santhanam. I find that it takes a very special combination of delicateness and forcefulness in voice to sing Bilahari well. There has to be so much azhuttham in descending to the madhyamam but such softness in the nishadam. I have been very pleased by TMK's pallavi in Bilahari in the Charsur release, but most vocalists cannot seem to bring out the raga bhava very well. Violinists on the other hand seem to have a special affinity to the raga (but also rarely venture away from Paridana Michithe).

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 20 Jan 2009, 13:11

mahesh3 wrote:......Folk I think the people at rasikas need to consider this before reacting the way they have in the other thread on TMK and Bhakthi. ....

Can anyone please provide the link for this thread? I could not locate.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 20 Jan 2009, 13:18

It is in the general discussions section. You can't miss it!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 20 Jan 2009, 13:26

Purist, enjoy!
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... -fest.html

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 21 Jan 2009, 13:38

bilahari wrote:Purist, enjoy!
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... -fest.html

Thanks Bilahari. Don't know how i missed when the thread was on.
It was like flood gates open. Offered my 2 cents in the following
'TMK replies' thread.

gnbaluu · Post by **gnbaluu** » 29 Jan 2009, 01:29

vijay wrote:Viribhoni was indeed the main as I had heard sometime back! Impressions/reviews anyone?

Yes i agree. it was mind blowing, i really dont care about the rules of carnatic music. i really enjoyed music that day. It was the best ever performance i have been to in my life.

gnbaluu · Post by **gnbaluu** » 29 Jan 2009, 01:33

rajaglan wrote:
sureshvv wrote:
Aztec2012 wrote:I took a snap thru my mobile when he was singing it ... Inbetween the song he stopped the singing and asked me to stop taking pics. It was such an embracing moment. The whole auditorium was looking at me ... It is out of the love that we have towards ur music we take pics.....He cud not accept this small thing ....
Aztec2012... You have not learned your lesson. In your selfish attempt (definitely not out of your love for music or concern for your fellow audience member) to capture your photo, you were disturbing the artiste, accompanists and the audience. You were hauled up for this. Now stop behaving like a child, own up to your mistake and promise all of us you will not do it again. May be next time you see some other nitwit try this, you can try dissuading them from attempting the same as a way for expiating for your past mistake.

PS: Would it be too much to ask you to spell your words correctly as a token of consideration for fellow forum members?

Sureshvv,

well excellent point made here. why do we need to take photos of musicians while they are in a concert? is it to show some one that we have been there ? I guess we just need to enjoy the music without distracting any body. Finally we then add a tag pf arrogance etc to that singer if he objects to it.

G N balasubramanian

On the point of distraction by photo , money collecting in sabhas etc: I cannot even concentrate listening to the songs when such things are done, how can a singer
focus on his concert when lights are flashing. especially the alapana. It is mind boggling, how the top artists deliver high quality music day after day in spite all those troubles.