This is a "disambiguation" post.
I've seen used in this forum as well as by Anil Srinivasan the term "harmonics" when what was meant was perhaps "harmony".
While the the basis of harmony and harmonic progression is derived from harmonics (such as a triad which is a combination of the fundamental, third and fifth harmonics), it encompasses a much larger idea.
"Harmonics" is a term used in physics, acoustics, electronics and radio engineering, etc... to mean integral multiples of a fundamental frequency.
"Harmony" is the term used to refer to the entire universe of chords, counterpoint, harmonic progression, etc... This is the term we should be using in any musical context . Seems like the term "harmonic" is often construed to be an adjectival form of harmony (hence we have harmonic progression, i.e., progression of harmony, and philharmonic orchestras, etc..). But this usage cannot progress, harmonically or otherwise, into a plural form "harmonics" (adjectives don't have plurals!) .
Once in a while, you'll see the term "harmonics" used with respect to guitar. This has nothing to do with "harmony" but actually harmonics. The first few harmonics (x2, x3, x4) can readily be generated in a plucked string by placing a finger lightly on the nodal points (halway, a third of the way, quarter way). This is a useful way of checking accuracy of tuning because beats are more evident at a higher frequency.
Check wikipedia for more.
"Harmonics" and "Harmony"
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uday_shankar
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Last edited by Guest on 10 Jan 2009, 22:56, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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cmlover
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VK
You have a valid point there! CM is not devoid of Harmony!
But how do we integrate it into the grammar?
The moment we think of accompaniment immediately there is the issue of Harmony. Originally the vedas (especially saaman) were chanted in groups and harmony was essential. There were no known accompaniments. Then came the laya instruments like uDukkai etc which only kept time and were not part of harmony. It is essentially vINa which starts the first attempt at accompaniment and it had to be in tune (shruti) to create harmony. Shilpa shaastra talks about the design of temples so that there is proper resonance during chants (naadakkaTTu) to maintain the harmony. How do we reconcile these ideas in the modern context of CM and integrate them into the scheme of things?
You have a valid point there! CM is not devoid of Harmony!
But how do we integrate it into the grammar?
The moment we think of accompaniment immediately there is the issue of Harmony. Originally the vedas (especially saaman) were chanted in groups and harmony was essential. There were no known accompaniments. Then came the laya instruments like uDukkai etc which only kept time and were not part of harmony. It is essentially vINa which starts the first attempt at accompaniment and it had to be in tune (shruti) to create harmony. Shilpa shaastra talks about the design of temples so that there is proper resonance during chants (naadakkaTTu) to maintain the harmony. How do we reconcile these ideas in the modern context of CM and integrate them into the scheme of things?
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uday_shankar
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vk
In the days when there were more ambassador cars (which had more musical horns than the conventional beep-beep type of horns in most modern cars) on India roads, ever so often we'd hear a major or minor chord among the medley of horns being sounded in unison. This does not mean that there was or is any harmony on Indian roads
.
Bottom line - there's no harmony in Indian music. This is not a weakness any more than that there's no meat in vegetarian food.
Some poster here named Babaji need not search ancient texts and torture words (tribhinnam??) to find something that doesn't exist. The vedas and/or anything written in Sanskrit ARE NOT the treatises of everything in the world.
In the days when there were more ambassador cars (which had more musical horns than the conventional beep-beep type of horns in most modern cars) on India roads, ever so often we'd hear a major or minor chord among the medley of horns being sounded in unison. This does not mean that there was or is any harmony on Indian roads
. Bottom line - there's no harmony in Indian music. This is not a weakness any more than that there's no meat in vegetarian food.
Some poster here named Babaji need not search ancient texts and torture words (tribhinnam??) to find something that doesn't exist. The vedas and/or anything written in Sanskrit ARE NOT the treatises of everything in the world.
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vasanthakokilam
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Uday, agreed. Since CML phrased his discussion item in a general way, I thought I will slip that in But the chord I hear in Mohanam is very pleasant unlike the street scene you vividly describe. In 'nannu palimpa', occasionally the frist pa of palimpa provides that nice effect especialy if it coincides with a strong pluck on the drone. Anyway, as you said, those are just side effects.
Also, your main point about the need to keep the words 'harmonics' and 'harmony' separate and not use them interchangeably is a good point and well taken.
CML, btw, accompaniment is not same as harmony. Different and aesthetically compatible melodic lines have to be played together for it to be considered hormony ( or polyphonic ) but multiple instruments/vocalists playing the same melodic line together does not qualify.
But the chord I hear in Mohanam is very pleasant unlike the street scene you vividly describe. In 'nannu palimpa', occasionally the frist pa of palimpa provides that nice effect especialy if it coincides with a strong pluck on the drone. Anyway, as you said, those are just side effects.Also, your main point about the need to keep the words 'harmonics' and 'harmony' separate and not use them interchangeably is a good point and well taken.
CML, btw, accompaniment is not same as harmony. Different and aesthetically compatible melodic lines have to be played together for it to be considered hormony ( or polyphonic ) but multiple instruments/vocalists playing the same melodic line together does not qualify.
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cmlover
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VK
got your point. Then I have to agree with Uday that there is no harmony in CM!
I loved the medley of traffic sounds in India which I do miss very much here at NA. I once bought a car and drove it for about two years without knowing that the horn was not working! There never was the need to use it for such a long time!
got your point. Then I have to agree with Uday that there is no harmony in CM!
I loved the medley of traffic sounds in India which I do miss very much here at NA. I once bought a car and drove it for about two years without knowing that the horn was not working! There never was the need to use it for such a long time!
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asrini
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agreed. Thanks, Uday.
I am sorry I used the wrong term, and that too loosely - you can put it down to doing too many things. However, as you yourself point out, the "flautando" effect, or the idea of touching another string lightly, is the basis of polyphony, and therefore, the idea of integrating two disparate strings/notes, which is the basis for harmony - so perhaps, a partial redemption for my error
I am sorry I used the wrong term, and that too loosely - you can put it down to doing too many things. However, as you yourself point out, the "flautando" effect, or the idea of touching another string lightly, is the basis of polyphony, and therefore, the idea of integrating two disparate strings/notes, which is the basis for harmony - so perhaps, a partial redemption for my error
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Rishikesh
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Tribinnam:
Tribinnam, perhaps exists. As babaji says, probably it is not being put to practice that frequently. I did find the word and its meaning in Karnatik.com Glossary section, wherein it says that it is possible to play 3 chords simultaneously by violinists. I also found something in SAWF site regarding the same. I have heard veena players, like Sri Chittibabu, Sri Rajesh Vaidhya use tribinnam in veena. Sri Ganesh and Sri Kumaresh have also stated about the same in one of their concerts.
Tribinnam, perhaps exists. As babaji says, probably it is not being put to practice that frequently. I did find the word and its meaning in Karnatik.com Glossary section, wherein it says that it is possible to play 3 chords simultaneously by violinists. I also found something in SAWF site regarding the same. I have heard veena players, like Sri Chittibabu, Sri Rajesh Vaidhya use tribinnam in veena. Sri Ganesh and Sri Kumaresh have also stated about the same in one of their concerts.
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babaji
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http://www.karnatik.com/gamakas.shtml
Look for the second last gamaka and you will find tribhinnam.
http://theveena.com/Gamakam.asp
Look here as well you will find it.
By reading the definition we can easily come to a conclusion that what it mentions is harmony.we are not negligent enough to deny that.
This is particularly to you sri uday shankar.basically we can know more about these by asking instrumentalists because they are able to do harmony in their instruments.why is it that only when a chapter is written specifically about harmony regarding sopranos,tenors and all that we believe it.i think if there was something like that written then its probably lost.
Many artists are bringing this to our attention. like risikesh said i also heard ganesh kumaresh mentioning the exact same thing and they played a harmonial raaga alapana of raga janaranjani.they were also explaining about harmony in indian music and were also predicting how this could have found place in CM.
i have no thorough knowledge of sanskrit though i have learnt it its literally impossible for me to concoct this word tribhinnam.its not my job.as far as i am concerned i have never really used theory as the be all end all of music.i believe that music should happen with your inborn sound sense and manodharma.
Look for the second last gamaka and you will find tribhinnam.
http://theveena.com/Gamakam.asp
Look here as well you will find it.
By reading the definition we can easily come to a conclusion that what it mentions is harmony.we are not negligent enough to deny that.
This is particularly to you sri uday shankar.basically we can know more about these by asking instrumentalists because they are able to do harmony in their instruments.why is it that only when a chapter is written specifically about harmony regarding sopranos,tenors and all that we believe it.i think if there was something like that written then its probably lost.
Many artists are bringing this to our attention. like risikesh said i also heard ganesh kumaresh mentioning the exact same thing and they played a harmonial raaga alapana of raga janaranjani.they were also explaining about harmony in indian music and were also predicting how this could have found place in CM.
i have no thorough knowledge of sanskrit though i have learnt it its literally impossible for me to concoct this word tribhinnam.its not my job.as far as i am concerned i have never really used theory as the be all end all of music.i believe that music should happen with your inborn sound sense and manodharma.
Last edited by babaji on 16 Jan 2009, 11:03, edited 1 time in total.
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uday_shankar
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babaji
I am aware of the instrumental technique called tribhinnam. The idea that multiple strings can be plucked/bowed or multiple keys can be pressed is quite intuitive. In fact one could say that many instrumentalists and amateurs "discover" the technique of tribhinnam quite independently and naturally and without knowing its name. So merely because there is a documented technique called "tribhinnam" doesn't make harmony a highly developed area in Indian music.
I did not read in a book that there is harmony in "sopranos, tenors, etc". In fact, I know for a fact that a single voice can only produce melody and there needs to be mutilple sources of sound (either from different places or the same instrument) for harmony to occur. I do know from intimate personal experience, rather than reading in a book, that harmony has been developed to an enormous degree in western classical music.
To give you an analogy, if "tribhinnam" is compared to the technique of holding a pen in one's hand and writing something in some langauge, "harmony" could be compared to the existence of the entire body of literature in that language.
I assure you, without prejudice or pejorative judgment and with great love for Carnatic music, that harmony is not developed in any genre of Indian music. Yes, several artistes are experimenting with melding harmonic ideas with Indian motifs. For example, the distinguished Chitravina maestro Ravikiran is experimenting with the rather difficult idea of melharmony wherein the elements of harmony do not disrupt the scale of the dominant raga. The violin maestro L Shankar has created some amazing polyphonic effects in some pieces. Anil Srinivasan does some interesting work. You have cited other artists too. This body of effort does not signify that there's harmony in Carnatic music.
This discussion was not the goal of my original post. I hope this thread does not turn into a TMK bhakti thread. I'm signing out right.....now!
I am aware of the instrumental technique called tribhinnam. The idea that multiple strings can be plucked/bowed or multiple keys can be pressed is quite intuitive. In fact one could say that many instrumentalists and amateurs "discover" the technique of tribhinnam quite independently and naturally and without knowing its name. So merely because there is a documented technique called "tribhinnam" doesn't make harmony a highly developed area in Indian music.
I did not read in a book that there is harmony in "sopranos, tenors, etc"
. In fact, I know for a fact that a single voice can only produce melody and there needs to be mutilple sources of sound (either from different places or the same instrument) for harmony to occur. I do know from intimate personal experience, rather than reading in a book, that harmony has been developed to an enormous degree in western classical music. To give you an analogy, if "tribhinnam" is compared to the technique of holding a pen in one's hand and writing something in some langauge, "harmony" could be compared to the existence of the entire body of literature in that language.
I assure you, without prejudice or pejorative judgment and with great love for Carnatic music, that harmony is not developed in any genre of Indian music. Yes, several artistes are experimenting with melding harmonic ideas with Indian motifs. For example, the distinguished Chitravina maestro Ravikiran is experimenting with the rather difficult idea of melharmony wherein the elements of harmony do not disrupt the scale of the dominant raga. The violin maestro L Shankar has created some amazing polyphonic effects in some pieces. Anil Srinivasan does some interesting work. You have cited other artists too. This body of effort does not signify that there's harmony in Carnatic music.
This discussion was not the goal of my original post. I hope this thread does not turn into a TMK bhakti thread. I'm signing out right.....now!
Last edited by Guest on 16 Jan 2009, 14:07, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
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Uday,
If not a 'big bang', a b(h)ang all the same, says Anil who occasionally bangs on the keys for emphasis--othrwise, his fingers flutter over them.
Anil,
It was a bang of a concert, the one I listened to where you brought several rAgAs together, interlacing them with a spirited madhyamAvati. Viji (Krishnan) Natarajan joining you in the duet on the violin with equal enthusiasm made it sound even better. Was the violin sound better than the human voice, I wondered. The concert was at once lively and calming. Would like to listen to more of your innovations. At least, to your concerts, I don't have to carry cotton wool balls with me, as Uday (rightly) does when sound systems accost your ear drums. Your music is soothing and I don't have to worry about an atrocious sound system...
If not a 'big bang', a b(h)ang all the same, says Anil who occasionally bangs on the keys for emphasis--othrwise, his fingers flutter over them.
Anil,
It was a bang of a concert, the one I listened to where you brought several rAgAs together, interlacing them with a spirited madhyamAvati. Viji (Krishnan) Natarajan joining you in the duet on the violin with equal enthusiasm made it sound even better. Was the violin sound better than the human voice, I wondered. The concert was at once lively and calming. Would like to listen to more of your innovations. At least, to your concerts, I don't have to carry cotton wool balls with me, as Uday (rightly) does when sound systems accost your ear drums. Your music is soothing and I don't have to worry about an atrocious sound system...
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babaji
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i don't know why somebody has to really sign out for a small thing like this.
By the way sri uday(if you are reading this or not)you had earlier mentioned that there was no harmony in carnatic music at all.
"Bottom line - there's no harmony in Indian music. This is not a weakness any more than that there's no meat in vegetarian food. "
for which i replied that there is harmony in our system.i won't say that word again.i am getting bored just typing it again.
then you replied(for the final time at least thats what i think) that
"Some poster here named Babaji need not search ancient texts and torture words (tribhinnam??) to find something that doesn't exist. The vedas and/or anything written in Sanskrit ARE NOT the treatises of everything in the world."
now i can and probably the members can see here that i have stuck to the post about whether harmony actually exists in our system or not.whether it plays a major role or why it was not developed today is not the original point of your post.i did not elaborate on it in my previous post as well.
but once again i will not accept that harmony is not being practised in carnatic music.like you said a single voice cannot produce a harmony and that is why karaikudi mani sir has many singers in his ensemble to produce harmony like how western musicians did.but it actually started way back centuries ago when it was called vadya vrinda.i believe a book is written by some author on this subject and its available at carnatic book centre.
the way you frustratingly express
"This discussion was not the goal of my original post. I hope this thread does not turn into a TMK bhakti thread. I'm signing out right.....now!"
why i don't understand this has to happen.anyway if its your wish then.but i assure you i am just contributing that little information which is almost obscure into the forum of rasikas thats all.
by concluding i would like to say that if melody is veda then harmony is upaveda and not the veda itself.
By the way sri uday(if you are reading this or not)you had earlier mentioned that there was no harmony in carnatic music at all.
"Bottom line - there's no harmony in Indian music. This is not a weakness any more than that there's no meat in vegetarian food. "
for which i replied that there is harmony in our system.i won't say that word again.i am getting bored just typing it again.
then you replied(for the final time at least thats what i think) that
"Some poster here named Babaji need not search ancient texts and torture words (tribhinnam??) to find something that doesn't exist. The vedas and/or anything written in Sanskrit ARE NOT the treatises of everything in the world."
now i can and probably the members can see here that i have stuck to the post about whether harmony actually exists in our system or not.whether it plays a major role or why it was not developed today is not the original point of your post.i did not elaborate on it in my previous post as well.
but once again i will not accept that harmony is not being practised in carnatic music.like you said a single voice cannot produce a harmony and that is why karaikudi mani sir has many singers in his ensemble to produce harmony like how western musicians did.but it actually started way back centuries ago when it was called vadya vrinda.i believe a book is written by some author on this subject and its available at carnatic book centre.
the way you frustratingly express
"This discussion was not the goal of my original post. I hope this thread does not turn into a TMK bhakti thread. I'm signing out right.....now!"
why i don't understand this has to happen.anyway if its your wish then.but i assure you i am just contributing that little information which is almost obscure into the forum of rasikas thats all.
by concluding i would like to say that if melody is veda then harmony is upaveda and not the veda itself.
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uday_shankar
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babaji
I am sorry, I didn't mean to snipe at you and then get out of the discussion. No insult there, just that I've run out of succinct explanations.
You have a point that you didn't say anything about a "major role", etc... But what you cited as an example of harmony in Indian music, namely the technique of tribhinnam is only the tip of the iceberg, a rudimentary technique independently discovered by most instrumentalists. It's the technique of writing with a pen, not the body of literature. Harmony as is normally understood, is a much more involved idea than tribhinnam or vAdya vrindas or vAdya vrindas playing different tribhinnams. I've tried explaining my point of view here, but beyond this it requires extensive personal contact with examples to explain what I'm trying to say, which is beyond the scope of this forum.
I am sorry, I didn't mean to snipe at you and then get out of the discussion. No insult there, just that I've run out of succinct explanations.
You have a point that you didn't say anything about a "major role", etc... But what you cited as an example of harmony in Indian music, namely the technique of tribhinnam is only the tip of the iceberg, a rudimentary technique independently discovered by most instrumentalists. It's the technique of writing with a pen, not the body of literature. Harmony as is normally understood, is a much more involved idea than tribhinnam or vAdya vrindas or vAdya vrindas playing different tribhinnams. I've tried explaining my point of view here, but beyond this it requires extensive personal contact with examples to explain what I'm trying to say, which is beyond the scope of this forum.
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Rishikesh
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Those days, DKP & DKJ used to sing together. DKJ used to mix well by singing at his upper & lower sthayis to align with DKP's sruti. Similarly MSS amma and Srimathi Radha Visvanathan used to sing well together with Srimathi Radha mixing it well at different sthayis to match with Amma's sruti. Another example, how the famous Smts Brinda & Muktha used to sing together at different pitches.
Can this type of singing be called as "harmony"? Or is it to do with singing with more than two voices?
Can this type of singing be called as "harmony"? Or is it to do with singing with more than two voices?
Last edited by Rishikesh on 20 Jan 2009, 10:41, edited 1 time in total.
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jananee
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Arasi ji - I echo your feelings about Anil's concert. The one with GJR at the Krishnamurthy Foundation is still so fresh in my mind. The violin did at tiems sound better than the human voice ! It was a very moving experience. The combination was just too good...I cant wait they release a CD...
Last edited by jananee on 20 Jan 2009, 12:52, edited 1 time in total.
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uday_shankar
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Harmony requires polyphony. For polyphony, two voices or sources of sound is sufficient but they should be singing/playing different melodies/tunes. This too is a very simplistic explanation..like if I said rAgas are scales. Harmony is something more than polyphony.Rishikesh wrote:Can this type of singing be called as "harmony"? Or is it to do with singing with more than two voices?
Just like the gradual development of rAga swroopa, various types of gamakas, etc.. over centuries, perhaps millennia, harmony is not something that can be developed overnight or can simply occur by throwing multiple voices or instruments together. It is a complex artistic development that took centuires in the making.
We in India did not evolve our music along harmonic lines but we developed profound melodic and rhythmic complexities. This is really the end of the story and I am really, really signing out or I will lose my sanity...
Last edited by Guest on 20 Jan 2009, 16:02, edited 1 time in total.
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vijay
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Please don't sign out Uday. I think this thread has already helped me understand harmony/polyphony a little better. A simple thing like the requirement of 2 diff tunes for polyphony is something I did not know (although, I guess, fairly obvious from the term itself). It would be good to get more fundaes on some of the things you have touched upon.
Anil when is Charsur coming out with the CD of your lec dem?
Anil when is Charsur coming out with the CD of your lec dem?
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babaji
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Yes uday lets forget what happened with this discussion in the beginning.i would also like to know what is polyphony and harmony and how it was developed.was there any special breakthrough with regard to writing harmony and how they have developed it.
This subject is quite interesting.so please enlighten me uday.Don't get me wrong.please share your knowledge with everybody here that is the aim of the rasikas.org forum.
This subject is quite interesting.so please enlighten me uday.Don't get me wrong.please share your knowledge with everybody here that is the aim of the rasikas.org forum.
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uday_shankar
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Whoa, wait all of you !!! I'm just an amateur dabbler and I'll be glad to share what I know, which is not much 
. I have not formed articulated theses of these topics in my mind and I am a poor student of historical development (in many cases, I write my own history based on how I think something might have evolved !!!). I just spring up and clarify something that I see as erroneous, based on my own experience. My "clarifications" could be erroneous too!
Better would be to ask questions and I can try to answer them.
Perhaps real experts like Anil can chip in where I go wrong or can't answer something.
. I have not formed articulated theses of these topics in my mind and I am a poor student of historical development (in many cases, I write my own history based on how I think something might have evolved !!!). I just spring up and clarify something that I see as erroneous, based on my own experience. My "clarifications" could be erroneous too! Better would be to ask questions and I can try to answer them.
Perhaps real experts like Anil can chip in where I go wrong or can't answer something.
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asrini
- Posts: 59
- Joined: 15 Jan 2008, 00:26
Okay - first off, I am no expert. I just play what I know
Jananee and Arasi ji - thanks for your compliments on both concerts - I am glad you enjoyed them. Vijay - abs. no clue when the DVD is out - will find out. Have been busy traveling.
I don't think the difference between polyphony and/or western harmony the way we undersatnd it can be explained away in simple definitions and easy terms. Second, the whole idea of harmonic motion, or finding "concordant" pitches with the dominant melody is a complex art by itself and usually taught as a subject/course matter on its own.
Polyphony certainly takes its origin from havign two independent melodic strains. Counterpoint music, and much of early Bach music - like fugues and two-part inventions carry this notion.
What I WILL offer to do is to write a one/two pager on the essential differences and post it on the forum in an appropriate section as soon as I can find some space to breathe. I have one more concert tomorrow with Vid. Ravikiran and after that, I have some time. Is that acceptable?
Jananee and Arasi ji - thanks for your compliments on both concerts - I am glad you enjoyed them. Vijay - abs. no clue when the DVD is out - will find out. Have been busy traveling.
I don't think the difference between polyphony and/or western harmony the way we undersatnd it can be explained away in simple definitions and easy terms. Second, the whole idea of harmonic motion, or finding "concordant" pitches with the dominant melody is a complex art by itself and usually taught as a subject/course matter on its own.
Polyphony certainly takes its origin from havign two independent melodic strains. Counterpoint music, and much of early Bach music - like fugues and two-part inventions carry this notion.
What I WILL offer to do is to write a one/two pager on the essential differences and post it on the forum in an appropriate section as soon as I can find some space to breathe. I have one more concert tomorrow with Vid. Ravikiran and after that, I have some time. Is that acceptable?
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vijay
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This is prompted by Ustad Amir Khan whose Bageshri Kanada is presently gracing my room. A "jod" raga, of which I suppose this is an example, (I may be wrong in this case but my argument would remain), is not, AFAIK, constructed with any harmonic intent. But could a polyphonic character be engineered through a union of harmonically compatible ragas? I don't even know what makes two melodies "harmonious" so I will leave it there...but perhaps experts could throw some light on whether this is at all possible...
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
vijay,
Here's some fundae while we wait for Anil's one page summary!
My first recommendation is to pick up some WCM, if you haven't already. I would recommend baroque composers, specifically JS Bach - violin concertos, piano concertos, Brandenburg concertos, etc... For me those were love at first sight, more than 3 decades ago. Still gives me the goosebumps just to think about them.
Without that listening experience, your understanding will be merely intellectual "fundaes" which will disappear from your head very quickly.
One cannot really explain the universe of "harmony" readily in simplistic terms anymore than one can explain rAgas to somebody who doesn't listen to any kind of Indian music.
The simplest "harmony" I can think of, which is also "polyphony" of a kind, is the idea of singing "seconds" in pop/rock music. "Seconds" are the singing of the same lyrics simultaneously in a different "tune", according to some rules. These "rules" are not some arbitrary rules but based on the psychoacoustic experience of harmony. One personally feels the warmth of the harmony.
I've noticed that dyed-in-the-wool Carnatic rasikas are unable to get "warmed" by the experience of such harmonious blending. Nothing wrong with that, perhaps it can be learned and cultivated.
But what are seconds ?
Take the Simon and Garfunkel piece "I'd rather be a sparrow than snail"
Taking some arbitrary tonic, the line may be notated as follows (the lower octave in lower case and the next one in upper case):
p , S , n3 , S , R2 , G2 , R2 , G2 , M1 , P , , ,
The seconds I might sing to that might be
g2 , d1 , p , d1 , n3 , S , n3 , S , R2 , G2 , , ,
When you look at it on a note by note basis, you'll find that they are separated at every stage either by 3 or 4 semitones. These separations impart the "warmth" of harmony on a note by note basis as the tune unfolds. There may be other "seconds" too. I chose this particular seconds because:
a) The main tune is in a harmonic minor scale (S R2 G2 M1 P D1 N3) and I wanted the seconds to remain within the same scale
b) This is the most intuitive seconds to me
Now tell me if you can picture this rudimentary demonstration of "seconds" musically. I can demonstrate it sometime I'm in Madras instead of freezing my rear end in Pittsburgh.
Here's some fundae while we wait for Anil's one page summary!
My first recommendation is to pick up some WCM, if you haven't already. I would recommend baroque composers, specifically JS Bach - violin concertos, piano concertos, Brandenburg concertos, etc... For me those were love at first sight, more than 3 decades ago. Still gives me the goosebumps just to think about them.
Without that listening experience, your understanding will be merely intellectual "fundaes" which will disappear from your head very quickly.
One cannot really explain the universe of "harmony" readily in simplistic terms anymore than one can explain rAgas to somebody who doesn't listen to any kind of Indian music.
The simplest "harmony" I can think of, which is also "polyphony" of a kind, is the idea of singing "seconds" in pop/rock music. "Seconds" are the singing of the same lyrics simultaneously in a different "tune", according to some rules. These "rules" are not some arbitrary rules but based on the psychoacoustic experience of harmony. One personally feels the warmth of the harmony.
I've noticed that dyed-in-the-wool Carnatic rasikas are unable to get "warmed" by the experience of such harmonious blending. Nothing wrong with that, perhaps it can be learned and cultivated.
But what are seconds ?
Take the Simon and Garfunkel piece "I'd rather be a sparrow than snail"
Taking some arbitrary tonic, the line may be notated as follows (the lower octave in lower case and the next one in upper case):
p , S , n3 , S , R2 , G2 , R2 , G2 , M1 , P , , ,
The seconds I might sing to that might be
g2 , d1 , p , d1 , n3 , S , n3 , S , R2 , G2 , , ,
When you look at it on a note by note basis, you'll find that they are separated at every stage either by 3 or 4 semitones. These separations impart the "warmth" of harmony on a note by note basis as the tune unfolds. There may be other "seconds" too. I chose this particular seconds because:
a) The main tune is in a harmonic minor scale (S R2 G2 M1 P D1 N3) and I wanted the seconds to remain within the same scale
b) This is the most intuitive seconds to me
Now tell me if you can picture this rudimentary demonstration of "seconds" musically. I can demonstrate it sometime I'm in Madras instead of freezing my rear end in Pittsburgh.
Last edited by Guest on 21 Jan 2009, 09:20, edited 1 time in total.
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vijay
- Posts: 2522
- Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06
Thanks Uday. That was very useful and I completely agree that without listening to it, theoretical constucts are meaningless. I have heard a bit of WCM before I got into CM (in fact I came to CM through WCM!) - Bach was and is one of my favourites especially the Brandenburg concertos - his Fugue is my daily wake-up call and after 2 years it is still inspiration enough to get up and face the day! I can't say that my listening is very vast but I am generally attracted to compositions that are strong on melody. I am not able to appreciate Chopin for instance.
I get the general idea about seconds...I have not heard this particular song - the only S&G song I remember is the popular Bridge over troubled waters but the tune is quite clear thanks to CM notations! But let me see if I can get hold of a CD. Is this related to the concepts of perfect fifth, perfect fourth, major third etc.?
I get the general idea about seconds...I have not heard this particular song - the only S&G song I remember is the popular Bridge over troubled waters but the tune is quite clear thanks to CM notations! But let me see if I can get hold of a CD. Is this related to the concepts of perfect fifth, perfect fourth, major third etc.?
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Always_Evolving
- Posts: 216
- Joined: 16 Oct 2007, 08:33
The song is El Condor Pasa - derived from an ancient Andean tune. It's available on Youtube but not with seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOPCSetZxWE
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
For those who wish for, or can stand, a session of harmony rich romantic pop, can I also recommend The Mamas and the Pappas.
Barber's shop quartet is a rich vein of harmony too --- I guess the idea was to orchestrate, in the absence of instruments, with the human voice.
As someone who obviously grew up on Western, rather than Indian, music, I have to say that, whilst I do not consciously miss harmony when I listen to Carnatic, there is a richness in these harmony-full pieces that delights me when I hear it.
Barber's shop quartet is a rich vein of harmony too --- I guess the idea was to orchestrate, in the absence of instruments, with the human voice.
As someone who obviously grew up on Western, rather than Indian, music, I have to say that, whilst I do not consciously miss harmony when I listen to Carnatic, there is a richness in these harmony-full pieces that delights me when I hear it.
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babaji
- Posts: 85
- Joined: 01 Dec 2006, 14:55
i am also an amateur composer both carnatic and western(i do'nt like to categorise it i would probably call it music anyway).
Much of what i am listening today eveolved with pop in my early childhood days.in fact i am going backwards day by day.in my teens i listened to metallica and dream theater and few stuff but i was'nt listening to other stuff apart from these.then my mind shifted to european bands known to experiment music in progressive and neo progressive,psychadelic acid and indo prog genres.
Finally the classical music came my way and what was the first i listened to............it was chopins waltzs
that i came across.what utter beauty and tapestry and the way his melody flows.i also listened to his other compositions.Really chopin is the pianoplayer of the romantic era and i am sure there were none to almost reach the heights he attained with piano.
Then mozarts requiem was something that will leave an impression in my mind as the greatest composer of the west no wonder he is being equated with sri thyagaraja.
All along i was only listening to these music offcourse with the carnatic classical music i was learning as well.but then came these russian composers.
I started with Nikolai rimsky korsakov,rachmaninoff,mili balakirev and tchaikovsky.and among these four rimsky korsakov is the only one that had the deep effects in me to compose.
i cannot speak in a few sentences about this person better somebody just read about him and his music.
in my opinion however bach and beethoven did not really amuse me they might have come from the classical era of the west still they did not have that something that this person had.however beethoven would be a better choice amongst these two.
Much of what i am listening today eveolved with pop in my early childhood days.in fact i am going backwards day by day.in my teens i listened to metallica and dream theater and few stuff but i was'nt listening to other stuff apart from these.then my mind shifted to european bands known to experiment music in progressive and neo progressive,psychadelic acid and indo prog genres.
Finally the classical music came my way and what was the first i listened to............it was chopins waltzs
that i came across.what utter beauty and tapestry and the way his melody flows.i also listened to his other compositions.Really chopin is the pianoplayer of the romantic era and i am sure there were none to almost reach the heights he attained with piano.
Then mozarts requiem was something that will leave an impression in my mind as the greatest composer of the west no wonder he is being equated with sri thyagaraja.
All along i was only listening to these music offcourse with the carnatic classical music i was learning as well.but then came these russian composers.
I started with Nikolai rimsky korsakov,rachmaninoff,mili balakirev and tchaikovsky.and among these four rimsky korsakov is the only one that had the deep effects in me to compose.
i cannot speak in a few sentences about this person better somebody just read about him and his music.
in my opinion however bach and beethoven did not really amuse me they might have come from the classical era of the west still they did not have that something that this person had.however beethoven would be a better choice amongst these two.
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violinvicky
- Posts: 18
- Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 17:19
Enjoyed this discussion. I have only one thing to add:
To cut a long story short:
Tribhinnam is just as much existent in CM (as an equivalent of Harmony in WCM) as Portamento in WCM (as an equivalent of Gamakams in CM);
Now the long story itself :
I would like to think all forms of "classical" musics in the world were aware of various similar concepts breadth wise and went on to engineer some of them deeply and mastered them to the extent that they formed the foundation of those respective genres and became the unique symbol of identity.
For instance, Tribhinnam as the name suggests is only the 3 part Harmony where as we have the rudimentary Seconds, the usual 4 part harmony of SATB; Singing different tracks together to form a counterpoint, singing subsequent lines over one another with lag (i.e., Overlapping the 1st line again by another source while the second line is in progress) and above all the concept of Chords and Chord progressions etc., show the depth of Harmony in WCM.
Similarly, if Portemento is a Gamakama, its just Jaru Gamakam to be specific in CM. Here the same concept has been engineered in depth such as Gambitham, Spuritam, Aahattam and above all Moorchana Gamakam which is absolutely characteristic of the given raaga etc.,
Going back to the tag line of this discussion, I think the concept of Harmonics (as used in acoustic physics) is as relevant to CM as WM at a basic level. This is illustrated by the importance given to the combination of Sa, Pa and Melsthaayi Sa together. (as can be seen they are the first, second and third harmonics). They are used to emphasize the Shruti and are treated as Jeeva Swaras etc., Its at the level polyphonic Harmony (more than 2) that the WC went deeper to form , upto the 6th harmonics to be specific, that has become the essence of the genre.
Now, why didn't WCM didn't go further than the 6th Harmonics ? Because then it will lead to frequencies that are not part of the known 12 note swara system that is fairly common in all forms of world music. Therefore higher harmonics are probably not that much in "Harmony" any more after all. But who knows, may be the Arabic, middle eastern and Eastern European music thrive on Quarter notes (outside of the 12 swaras and NOT Vivadhi swaraas) and perhaps there the concept of harmonics is taken still deeper to form Harmonies.. So keeping WC as the benchmark to illustrate the relationship between Harmony and Harmonics is also not complete.
The bottom line is, All forms of music are rather common in terms of 'awareness of various concepts' but differ at the level of aesthetics, engineering and exploration that went into these concepts.
With Love
Vicky
To cut a long story short:
Tribhinnam is just as much existent in CM (as an equivalent of Harmony in WCM) as Portamento in WCM (as an equivalent of Gamakams in CM);
Now the long story itself :
I would like to think all forms of "classical" musics in the world were aware of various similar concepts breadth wise and went on to engineer some of them deeply and mastered them to the extent that they formed the foundation of those respective genres and became the unique symbol of identity.
For instance, Tribhinnam as the name suggests is only the 3 part Harmony where as we have the rudimentary Seconds, the usual 4 part harmony of SATB; Singing different tracks together to form a counterpoint, singing subsequent lines over one another with lag (i.e., Overlapping the 1st line again by another source while the second line is in progress) and above all the concept of Chords and Chord progressions etc., show the depth of Harmony in WCM.
Similarly, if Portemento is a Gamakama, its just Jaru Gamakam to be specific in CM. Here the same concept has been engineered in depth such as Gambitham, Spuritam, Aahattam and above all Moorchana Gamakam which is absolutely characteristic of the given raaga etc.,
Going back to the tag line of this discussion, I think the concept of Harmonics (as used in acoustic physics) is as relevant to CM as WM at a basic level. This is illustrated by the importance given to the combination of Sa, Pa and Melsthaayi Sa together. (as can be seen they are the first, second and third harmonics). They are used to emphasize the Shruti and are treated as Jeeva Swaras etc., Its at the level polyphonic Harmony (more than 2) that the WC went deeper to form , upto the 6th harmonics to be specific, that has become the essence of the genre.
Now, why didn't WCM didn't go further than the 6th Harmonics ? Because then it will lead to frequencies that are not part of the known 12 note swara system that is fairly common in all forms of world music. Therefore higher harmonics are probably not that much in "Harmony" any more after all. But who knows, may be the Arabic, middle eastern and Eastern European music thrive on Quarter notes (outside of the 12 swaras and NOT Vivadhi swaraas) and perhaps there the concept of harmonics is taken still deeper to form Harmonies.. So keeping WC as the benchmark to illustrate the relationship between Harmony and Harmonics is also not complete.
The bottom line is, All forms of music are rather common in terms of 'awareness of various concepts' but differ at the level of aesthetics, engineering and exploration that went into these concepts.
With Love
Vicky