rAgAs in Western/Non-Indian Music

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 11 Jan 2009, 12:49

I was just watching one of the Toyota ads in TV which had the shades of rAgA valaji. I am curious to know what are the other ragas (apart from the ubiquitous shankarAbharanam) that are usually featured in Western/Non-Indian songs. Some reference to albums would be useful. Thank you.

I will keep updating this list as and when someones posts a new rAgA:

1. shankarAbharanam
2. valaji
3. rEvathi
4. kathanakuthUhalam
5.kIravAni
6. suddha dhanyAsi
7. mOhanam
8. hEmavathi
9. simhEndra madhyamam
10. suddha sAveri
11. madhyamAvati
12. karaharapriyA

saramati · Post by **saramati** » 11 Jan 2009, 13:02

i guess revathi and kathanakuthoohalam are also reminded of, whenever i hear western music

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Jan 2009, 15:33

If you hear Blues influenced rock musicians, you will hear some resemblances. There is a fairly long and repeated guitar solo by Jimi Hendrix in the song 'third stone from the sun' which reminds me very much of our music.
Here is a little sample of that in this piece: http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=sWKwBfTHRMM starting at 2:39 and till 2:58 . There is another song of his where he plays the same melodic line with less distortion and 'sEshtai'. So what raga is that familiar line between 2:39 and 2:58 ?

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 11 Jan 2009, 16:39

VK, Thanks for posting the sample. Is the rAgA jana sammOdhini?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Jan 2009, 19:12

The scale of keeravani (harmonic minor scale) is quite popular in rock music
So is the scale of suddha-dhanyasi (minor pentatonic scale).

Arun

lalithanandini · Post by **lalithanandini** » 11 Jan 2009, 21:46

Some scales that find a parallel in the different music traditions of the world include

Mohanam - Pentatonic is seen in the music of China, Japan, Korea
Hemavathi - Music of the Middle East
Simendramadyamam - Hungarian Music
Sudda Saveri - music of China, Japan, Korea
Madyamavati - music of China, Japan, Korea
Karaharapriya - Ireland

Dr. M. Lalitha and M. Nandini

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jan 2009, 00:34

Arun: This is Harmonic Minor, right: http://www.we7.com/#/track/Ive-Got-To-S ... Id=1299203

I have to really stretch to see the Keeravani in there, though the scale is the same. This sounds exotic and dreamy, Keeravani rasa and bhava come off differently. ( the above link is some Karaoke singer singing to the same accompanying music. The original, which is a commercial recording, sounds even more exotic and dreamy )

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jan 2009, 01:02

shadjam wrote:VK, Thanks for posting the sample. Is the rAgA jana sammOdhini?

Actually I did not mean it as a quiz, I want to know myself. You have put down your answer. I do not have any conception of Jana sammOdhini, so let us see what other's opinions are.

When I listened to that, the familiarity I felt was not based on comparison of the scales but the melody itself sounded close to Indian or something that I am familiar with but could not quite put my finger on.

I think this is the original record version: http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=TVQbHbEnS ... re=related ( 0:45 to 1:00 but the whole song is on this and another melodic theme )

Here is Stevie Ray Vaugn's tribute version http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=QMW0t17Ft5o That same melody is between 2:95 and 3:40

Another version by someone else: http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=nXvqxFB9v3c here the entire thing, pretty much from beginning to end, is based on this theme. No surprise, since it is all the same song by Hendrix they are interpreting.

I am still figuring out why it sounds attractive ( comfort music? ) and why it sounds Indian to me. Anyone else feel that way too?

adiaphor · Post by **adiaphor** » 12 Jan 2009, 04:35

There can't be raga without raga grammar, and no system outside of India follows raga grammar. Scales alone are shared. I'm troubled by the likelihood that hearing foreign music in terms of raga analogues overlooks the unique melodic properties of the foreign material.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Jan 2009, 05:12

adiaphor wrote:I'm troubled by the likelihood that hearing foreign music in terms of raga analogues overlooks the unique melodic properties of the foreign material.

May be they are being experienced as rAga analogues in addition to appreciation of their unique melodic properties, and not instead of, as you've assumed?

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 12 Jan 2009, 05:20

adiaphor,
Interesting you say that. I have often found that the mind misses so many other intrinsic details of the other system if it gets caught up in thie raga-mapping process. I for one have been able to appreciate other musical systems and forms only after I 'let go' of the raga entity.

adiaphor · Post by **adiaphor** » 12 Jan 2009, 05:31

vidya - and I, by contrast, only began understanding raga music when I stopped classifying them according to scales and began trying to appreciate each raga for its phrase structure. One HM aficionado I've talked a lot with said she didn't even know how to classify raags by thaat. I think there's a whole range of "learning curves" here.

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 12 Jan 2009, 05:55

adiaphor,

Having had zero formal training in the foreign (anything non-carnatic is foreign to me) music, the only way I enjoy them is by relating it to carnatic music. I tend to like the ones that have some resemblance to carnatic music. My way separating good one from bad is entirely based on how close they are to carnatic music

As vidya suggested, I might be able to better appreciate other forms of music if I drop the rAgA analogy. But I am not sure if I would have any interest in listening to it.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Jan 2009, 06:13

During my grand mother's time (19th century) she used the term 'meTTu' to classify songs. That was a vague structure with similarity to raga but quite different. Whenever my mother sang those songs I used to ask whether it was such and such raga and she would correct me that it was a particular meTTu. The meTTu usually refers to a sahitya but not exactly the same. It may have all sorts of foreign notes (no particular scale structure) but there will be a 'melodic similarity'. Some of them were based on the Folk Music popular in those days. For some reason those ideas are lost and we are over-concerned about the raga and mela structure in CM governed too much by the grammar. It may be worthwhile to take a backward step to recover what we may have lost by way of melodic structures...

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 12 Jan 2009, 08:32

The notes,strains, swaras in any kind of music ,whether western, indian ,egyptian , austrian,MARTIAN?have to adhere to some raag , whose number is infinity . gobilalitha

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jan 2009, 10:47

The following are my own perceptions and not based on any formal data collection.

- A majority of carnatic music listeners directly 'sense' a raga without knowing the scale or the mela. adiaphor, in that sense you have come to the same state as the natives. That is good.
In fact, if you let go of that phrase structure, you get even closer to the native experience. In fact the words like 'phrase', 'pidi' etc. are all inside the beltway talk.

- I do not think there is anything majorly wrong in recognizing if a 'foreign' piece sounds like something we are used to. But I do understand that if that is all we do when we enjoy foreign music, then there is quite a bit that gets lost.

- Having said that, I find myself liking a piece only when I can catch on to the 'melodic' aspect of it. That may be the indian conditioning. My own revelatory example is a piano composition by Duke Ellington which a friend of mine raved about. It was so abstract that I did not even know what to latch on to. As a system of sounds, it did not work for me at all. My friend then deconstructed it as just the melody, as he had heard it from some one else. That was a revelation. The melodic line was there but it was all lost in those complex chords until it was brought out for me. Then I saw how beautiful that composition was. ( I am sure I am not stating the technical parts of it correctly but that is how I experienced it ).

- There is a whole band of grey area in how one appreciates another system of music, so there is no point in making it a black or white issue.

adiaphor · Post by **adiaphor** » 12 Jan 2009, 10:51

gobilalitha - Taking the root meaning of "passion, affect" of course there are infinite rAgas. There are also infinite ways of stringing pitches together. That's a rather abstract sentiment, though, and by definition ICM uses only an infinitesimal selection from the infinite possible melody-types.

The very impulse to classify melodies into types is culturally specific and has progressed to different degrees in different traditions. I find this point interesting because I've been under the spell of a basically ICM ethos for years--music is to be understood first and foremost as the elaboration of melody-types. Where elaboration of melody-types has pride of place, it's easy to be perplexed by traditions that don't do melody typology as a primary focus. An example of a system with utterly contrasting priorities is Chinese, wherein music is all about conveying specific ideas that are unique to each piece. The Chinese tradition does classify its melodies, but only vaguely, and that classification has essentially no bearing on performance or experience of the music. Not to take us too far afield, but does anyone find the very nature of ICM as "raga music" worthy of reflection?

adiaphor · Post by **adiaphor** » 12 Jan 2009, 12:21

Just to clarify...

The concept of music being about "rAga", something like emotionality or aesthetic character, is distinguishable from the fact that ICM of recent centuries centers on the elaboration of melody-types. That melody-type became central enough to get *designated* by the word "rAga" was a historical process I'd be interested to learn about.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 12 Jan 2009, 12:32

Quite an interesting thought process.

The reason for melody type classificaton may be due to the fact that ICM is more manodharma based. When imagination and improvisation become the key elements, rather than set pieces (kritis) certain references and framework are required so that an audience can understand and appreciate the thought process of the artist

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jan 2009, 19:00

CML,
MeTTu as I understand it is tune. engiRa meTTil--a la a particular song--may it be folk or semi-classical or classical too? bArati uses this for specifying which particular (popular) tune he wants you to sing a verse in.

Mohanam pervades Country Music too (of the US) besides oriental music.

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 13 Jan 2009, 06:48

Here is some Korean music that sounds like suddha dhanyAsi.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=wrHF9QC4rHg

Quiz of the week: Can someone please name those three instruments?

This is the first time I have seen a kottAnkuchi (coconut shell

) violin being used on stage as well as chop sticks being used for purpose other than eating

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 14 Jan 2009, 09:23

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 15 Jan 2009, 00:51

shadjam wrote:Here is some Korean music that sounds like suddha dhanyAsi.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=wrHF9QC4rHg

Quiz of the week: Can someone please name those three instruments?

The internet knows all: Gayageum, Haekyum, and Geomungo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditiona ... nstruments

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 19 Jan 2009, 12:34

The Sivaranjani scale is used to great effect by Puccini in Madamma Butterfly. The oft-quoted example of Mohanam being used in Oriental music is found in Puccini's final masterpiece, Turandot. Puccini extensively included local colour into his melodies as in the above-mentioned operas set in Japan and China respectively.
As for operas including Indian themes such as Lakme, Pearlfishers etc. I dont recall any "Indian" flavour in the music, only in the action.

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 19 Jan 2009, 14:54

Charukesi has also been used in Western Classical music. Although I cannot listen to the audios anymore, some of you might be able to do so.
--------
http://t-m--sivaraman.sulekha.com/blog/ ... -music.htm

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Jan 2009, 21:52

puccini in Madamma Butterfly => paTTAM pUccini?

(sorry - I am filling in for Uday

;-) )

Arun

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 19 Jan 2009, 23:51

paTTAM pUccini?
LOL

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Jan 2009, 23:56

Great one, Bilahari!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 20 Jan 2009, 00:04

It was arunk who came up with that gem, arasi. I was also appreciating it!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Jan 2009, 09:14

You a rasikA too. 'arun'Odayam of an idea !

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Feb 2009, 13:03

shadjam wrote:Here is some Korean music that sounds like suddha dhanyAsi.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=wrHF9QC4rHg

Quiz of the week: Can someone please name those three instruments? This is the first time I have seen a kottAnkuchi (coconut shell ) violin being used on stage as well as chop sticks being used for purpose other than eating

Getting back to this thread after a long time.

Shadjam, thanks for the link. It was a bit on the raw and bold side and it worked for me. Very nice.

Is it in tisra nadai?