Why Abhangs ?

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 14 Jan 2009, 23:30

I have been mesmerised by these lyrical, rhythmical varieties of Abhangs and bhajans. But there has always been a question in my mind why abhangs here in Carnatic Music (Assuming all the catholicity, open-mindedness etc etc) ... Does the same prevail with Hindustani Musicians ? Do they sing Thevaram, Thiruvachagam etc etc in their concerts ? |Dont they merit attention ?

Today being Pongal and Thamizhar Thirunaal i raise this question in the forum to discuss ...

I have nothing against artistes who sing them or who render them for the sake of popularity or otherwise ...

My one and only question is when abhangs are here why not Thevaram and Thiruvachagam in Hindustani ?

JB

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Jan 2009, 00:14

Sir I am not a great fan of Abhangs but what's the harm in having 5 minutes of Abhangs in a 2.5 hour concert? Aruna's concert was a hit in Pune Sawai Gandharva festival probably because of the Abhang (and the Kalinga narthana tillana). I once dragged a Marathi friend to a Ranjani gayathri concert and he was thrilled to listen to the Abhang. He has been picking up CDs of the duo ever since...It is only when they become 15-20 minute affairs (sometimes almost the main piece) that I have a problem.

As for Hindustani musicians, I have always been irritated with their attitude towards Carnatic music (although there are honourable exceptions like Ajoy Chakraborty). However Thevaram etc. would present grave pronunciation problems - even artistes from other states in the South don't dare to touch them! South Indian on the other hand (especially middle classes who dominate CM) tend to be more migratory and many of them have exposure to North Indian languages like Hindi, Marathi, Bengali etc. so they are able to some justice to compositions in those languages.

Nonetheless, it is HM's loss and CM's gain that the pollination is uni-directional at the moment. Hearing Sanjay's "taans" in Darbari at NGS, it was clear that he has imbibed the weightiest Dhrupad traditions. Now I am wondering why others don't dig into the Dhrupariya's Jod/Chari arsenal to enhance their taanam singing. There is so much to learn...Rithvik Sanyal for example who sang a brilliant Kanakangi (yeah you heard that right - mela #1!) at an Academy lec dem could easily have been singing a taanam in a carnatic concert....and brilliantly at that...

A bit of a ramble but the point in this - let in winds from all directions but don't get swept off your feet - or something to that effect as Gandhi put it...

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 15 Jan 2009, 00:17

Vijay Sir i am at a loss to c your point about pronunciations.
When our artistes barring a few who have the Hindi-Marathi Background .. others learn .. (For that matter even Telugu and Sanskrit are new to most of the musicians) Dont we learn it with sincerity and dedication about the pronunciation..

Havent we taken efforts to explain them ? (For example a great Ganapathi Tukaram or OS Arun ?)

Y not on those lines ?

JB

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Jan 2009, 00:27

I am not saying they should not try - but Tamizh poses a very particular problem to North Indians....besides the Sankritic background of certain South Indian communities makes North Indian languages more accesible. But I agree with you - ideally, it should work both ways. All I am saying is that if they don't learn good things from CM, it is their loss...

On the point of Abhang itself, I am not sure it adds any value to the cutcheri per se...but if it helps an artiste's popularity without taking too much time I think it is OK...

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Jan 2009, 00:33

Go to any major north Indian cities, you can see how many south Indians are settled there because of livelihood. This happened during the 40s thru 60s. Perhaps that outflow has stopped because of the development of several silicon valleys in South India. That has something to do with South Indians accepting and adopting north Indian music too. I like to see some Rabindra Sangeeth and Nazrul Geet also part of CM.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 15 Jan 2009, 01:00

The abhang phenomenon is just among the latest in a long history of imports to the south from central and northern traditions. Motives may be diverse, ranging from a taste for the exotic, to attempts at syncretism, to a desire on the part of the artiste to bring together different parts of his/her own life and cultural heritage.

I am not a regular concert goer, and haven't kept up with the Janaki-come-latelies in the abhang-import market. I was completely moved, though, by Ranjani's and Gayatri's rendition of Tukaram's paNDarIchE bhUt moThE at a concert in Austin in 2003. Besides singing in flawlessly unaccented Marathi, the artistes also paraphrased the abhang's lyrics, and the nindA stuti resonated quite a bit with the southerners in the audience.

Vijay cited Prof. Ritwik Sanyal's dhrupad lec-dem, which was a beautiful counter-example to the directionality of the HM->CM trend. Quoting from Sanyal and Widdess' book below...

Another feature of the Dagar heritage that may be explained by a Sufi background is the presence in their repertory of a number of South Indian rAgas or rAgas based on South Indian scales (for example, rAgas vardhanI, kAmbhOjI, kanakAngI, and so on). The Deccan was historically a great centre of Sufism, and a number of Sufi musicians from northern India and were consequently attracted to both the region and the music of the region. These included the seventeenth-century Sufi mystic and musician of Barnava, Sheikh Bahauddin Barnavi, who studied music in the Deccan before returning to his hometown; Bande Ali Khan in the nineteenth century, who visited Hyderabad among other places in the South; and another wandering bIn player of the twentieth century, Sufi Inayat Khan, who visited the South and studied Carnatic rAgas (as did his father, Maula Bakhs). It is not known, however, that any members of Bahram Khan's family visited the South themselves, apart from Bande Ali Khan, and the use of rAgas based on the South Indian mElakartA system could be attributed to intellectual curiosity and creative experimentation.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 15 Jan 2009, 05:26

I can understand mridhangam's fascination for Abhangs as they are rhythm dominated. If I am not mistaken the Carnatic terms chapu and mora are probably from the Marathi "chhaap" and "mohra".

I agree with Vijay that a 5 minute abhang will not alter the basic structure of a 2.5 hour CM concert. From a personal view point I look forward to the abhang section in a Ranjani Gayathri Concert. In earlier days, MS Kutcheris in Bombay or in Maharashtra used to have atleast one Abhang like Bare Panduranga, Sundarete Dhyana or Dhava Vibho Karunakara Madhava. (learnt from Srinivasa Rao, a Chennai based musician of Marathi descent who had tuned innumerable bhajans for MS apart from the Hanuman Chalisa)

BTW Marathi and performances by Marathi artists have been a part of "Carnatic" Folklore for a long time. Saraswati Bai was a great Harikatha exponent of the early 20th century and her performances of Rukmini Kalyanam or Prahlada Charitam used to be interspersed with quips and jokes, and songs in many languages - Tamil, Sanskrit, Telugu, Hindi and Marathi.

I thought it would be appropriate to paste a link of my comments in a different thread in this section too. (Post # 12)

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... atvam.html

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 Jan 2009, 08:48

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 15 Jan 2009, 09:41

Coolkarni-ji, that hamsadhwani clip made my day - thanks!

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 15 Jan 2009, 09:46

sAvalE sundara rUpa manOharA in mAlkauns by SrImatI aruNA sAyIrAm is simply irrestable.

IMHO, everything in moderation is always good. Of course, tEvAram, tiruvAsakam, and other sangatamizh pAmAlai should be often included.

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 15 Jan 2009, 09:46

Sirs,

My humble opinion is that Abhang may not be / need not be part of CM. Because it is very popular in Tamilnadu otherwise since ages. May be historically (during Sarabhoji/Krishnadevaraya period ) people came from Maharashtra/Gujarat and settled here.

All the bhajnostav Mandali/ Nama sangeerthanam (Radha kalyanam/ Seetha Kalyanam) groups in Chennai & tamilnadu do sing Abhang. And you all must be aware that a big group keep going to Pandarpur (in Maharashtra ) every year during July-August (Ashada Ekadesi) from Chennai. Abhang is also part Mumbai trains and a group in almost every second train sing and reach office daily.

I feel it is more of a mass music rather than to be a part of Pure CM.

Ganesh

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 Jan 2009, 10:18

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 Jan 2009, 17:36

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 15 Jan 2009, 17:45

Excellent Coolji.Thanks.

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 15 Jan 2009, 17:58

After reading all your lucid comments and listening to Cool Sir's beautiful gems

; my two cents: Why not add some variety to a Carnatic Music concert? Of course, don't let it get carried away with it, but audiences do definitely like to hear something different and new. In addition to the traditional languages of telugu, tamizh, saMkr.t and kannaDa, malayALam we have Carnatic compositions in maraThi, saurAShTra and sangkEti and most probably other languages as well. Cool Sir had also cited the lack of interest in vacana sAhityAs of basavanna, akka mahAdEvi among others. I guess this whole issue depends on the personal dis/likes of the rasikas. Some like to sway in the isles listening to devotional items, while other prefer traditional repertoire.

Svaapana · Post by **Svaapana** » 15 Jan 2009, 20:15

Some members may recall that Sanjay sang a full length concert in Bengali in Calcutta couple years ago.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Jan 2009, 20:37

Yes I heard about that! Would any one be able to give the details/songlist of that concert?

lifeisasong · Post by **lifeisasong** » 15 Jan 2009, 21:05

While Hindustani musicians may not be singing Thevarams etc (as Coolkarni Sir pointed out it is the main piece that takes precedence in Hindustani concerts) I think there is a growing respect and interest in Carnatic music.
As a non-South Indian I really appreciate the efforts made by Carnatic musicians to sing in Marathi and Hindi. I often find the pronunciation isn't very good but I do appreciate the effort. Since I am learning Carnatic music, one day I will have to sing in Tamil, and then probably my Tamilian friends will cringe at my pronunciation, my Telugu friends at my Telugu pronunciation etc

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Jan 2009, 22:53

After reading all the wonderful posts above and lifeisasong's account of his learning CM (he is from the north?) and his concern about singing tamizh and telugu songs, I have this to say: While it would be nice to hear tEvAram, tiruvAsagam and tiruppAvai from HM singers, we have to consider that old tamizh words are not as easy to learn as words in a song by bArati. Our own singers have problems with them sometimes. In the Lyrics Section, we speculate about the meaning of some words in old tamizh. I am assuming that knowing the meaning of the words is part of learning a song too.
Cienu mentions MS's repertoire of songs in many indian languages. Her pronunciation was impeccable. She had the zeal, she worked hard on getting every word right and learnt the songs mostly from native speakers. Her dedication to her art made her excel in what she presented, in any given language.
Those of us who like to hear abhangs and such in other languages have to consider this too: would we like the northerner to pronounce words in tamizh as if they are hindi or bengAli words? Will they be crticized for it? Like vainika, I loved paNdarichi bhUt mOTE when R&G sang it flawlessly, as if they were native speakers. I feel that before venturing into northern languages, our vocalists should pay attention to getting the words right in southern languages which they don't speak! I am all for adding a bhajan or abhang to a concert if the performer likes to do so and has done her homework...

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 15 Jan 2009, 23:44

Coolkarni,

Thanks for those clips

Abhang or not - The love for the fillers ( I don't like to call them tukkaDas) kills a concert IMHO. In moderation, it is palatable. But last year we had a concert that went for 5+ hours out of which 2+ hours were these

I would rather have a 3 hour concert with not more than 30 minutes of 'short compos'.

I agree that these compositions give a chance for new rasikas to start appreciating music. However, when taken too far, it does dilute a concert quite a bit.

I have nothing against abhang as such. If the vocalist can do a good job with marAthi words, then it sure can be an abhang instead or a devaranama or a shloka.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 15 Jan 2009, 23:48

coolkarni wrote:vainika
this will make your night

http://www.sendspace.com/file/x5qacb

On a lighter note

, isn't this a morning raaga?

-ramakriya

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 16 Jan 2009, 00:22

As it turns out Kishori-tai, Channulal Misra and MDR are all keeping me company here in the overnight napping lounge at Hyderabad airport.

Cool-ji whom did the Banarasi ustad learn from in Madras, and what does he say about the importance of learning in that clip? I couldn't understand the line he quoted.

lifeisasong · Post by **lifeisasong** » 16 Jan 2009, 03:18

Thanks Arasi. I'm a "she"...grew up listening almost exclusively to Hindustani, which my parents learned, but never learned music formally. My parents had exposed me to some Carnatic. I lived in the South for a two years, left India and started learning Carnatic! My deep love for the music developed purely through its "sound" as I don't't understand the sahitya of most compositions. Sometimes I fear I've bitten off more than I can chew because of the language issues, but hopefully the courage shall hold and I shall persevere.
I was born in Bombay, so you could say I'm West Indian!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Jan 2009, 04:00

lifeisasong wrote: I was born in Bombay, so you could say I'm West Indian!

To the delhivAlAs you'd be a madrAsI....

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Jan 2009, 04:00

rshankar wrote:
lifeisasong wrote: I was born in Bombay, so you could say I'm West Indian!
To the delhivAlAs you'd be a madrAsI....

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 16 Jan 2009, 04:29

lifeisasong,

Hmm your story does sound oddly familiar.

After hearing some talented kids in the US, who do not speak their native tongues but sing with perfect diction, I think in today's global and migratory contexts that Pronunciation and diction need not always a function of 'knowing' a language. It is part of a rigor of a musical system and training imparted and diction can be worked on and cultivated. Somewhat like a non-native opera singer cultivating an Italiante sound and learning to roll their 'Rs' and as long as they understand what they sing from the POV of expression etc.

On Pt.Ritwik Sanyal and N-S exchanges I'd like to add one small note:
The CM<->HM dimension has long been a tradition in the Music Academy with Pt.Ratanjankar and others lecdemming on such confluences as early as the 1950s. Some of his articles in the JMAM are worth taking a look at. Infact ragas like Basant Mukhari and others owe it to him and he did this at a time when the N-S connection was rather unidirectional.Infact, Justice TLVenkatrama Iyer describes him as the unifying force of Northern and Southern music or some such thing.

Lastly reverting to Mridhangam's original post there is another sociocultural aspect of why the Tamil-speaking carnatic community somehow has been conditioned to think from a religious standpoint that 'Sanskrit(and sanskritic traditions)=divine even if I don't understand it' which does unfortunately prevail even today in many quarters. I certainly see a consistent decline in serious Tamil speaking/writing/literature/music-aware populace over the years. This aspect does result in loss of knowledge of a certain class of Tamil compositions and their original conceptions. Compositions like Papavinasa Mudaliar's, tevarams in the original pann- are hardly sung these days. While I am all for catholicity and open-mindedness, I also think native speakers of a language should try and popularize such musically-rich compositions. So Abhangs are welcome but I would also like to see a few more of the kinds of Dr.S.Ramanathans and Musiris or T.Viswa singing a certain tevaram in Bhairavi with native gusto!

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 16 Jan 2009, 09:11

vganesh wrote:

All the bhajnostav Mandali/ Nama sangeerthanam (Radha kalyanam/ Seetha Kalyanam) groups in Chennai & tamilnadu do sing Abhang.

This is exactly right. And is origin of the abhang popularity in the south. People like Swami Haridoss Giri, Udayalur Kalyanaraman who are namasankeertanam exponents highly respected in the Carnatic community for their musical depth regularly render(ed) abhangs as part of the repertoire.

The current "CM abhangists" having lived in Bombay have good marathi pronounciation.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 16 Jan 2009, 17:07

Lifeisasong it is good to hear about a North/West Indian learning Carnatic Music. Strangely enough, linguistically, CM is almost as alien to Tamilians/Malayalees as it is to North Indians since most people from these states cannot understand either Telugu or Sanskrit! Even though there are quite a few Tamizh compositions, they get third place at best...I too fell for Carnatic for its sound as even my Tamizh is sadly too inadequate to grasp the import of most krithis. Indeed, IMO, the best way to approach art music is through the musical rather than lyrical aspect although the latter has its own charm.

Vidya thanks for the info on Ratanjankar. As you would know, Basant Mukhari is the Carnatic Vakulabharanam. So is this another case of an HM import from CM?

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 16 Jan 2009, 18:51

I am happy after some 27 posts someone remembered me .. hahah thank you. Though none of you have really read between lines of my post i shall wait for some more on this .. before i plunge...

JB

lifeisasong · Post by **lifeisasong** » 16 Jan 2009, 19:58

mridhangam! my original reply was to you though I did not mention your name! I will now try to guess what you are saying between the lines. If I was a performing singer (alas it is too late for that) I would have sung Thevarams in Hindustani concerts.

Vidya- yes

rshankar-I lived in Delhi for a couple of years and was always telling people off there, about their "MadrAsi" categorisations.

Vijay, hopefully I will one day be a North/West/South and East Indian! One of the reasons I feel knowing Tamil is important (though a large no of Krithis are in Telugu/Sanskrit) is because so many things like lecture demonstrations, explanations by artists etc are in Tamil. Even in the West, concerts are introduced in Tamil, the artist speaks in Tamil, and here I am craving to know more and feeling utterly left out ( I am at that stage where the desert meets the rain-perhaps this stage will last a life time). For example: Dr. Vedavalli's lec dem on Varnams, I downloaded it with great excitement only to find it was in Tamil.

I agree with you though-the best way to approach any art music is through its sound-that's always been my instinctive approach and I guess it always be. As it stands, abhangs are about the only compositions I understand in a Carnatic concert (though I am not ethnically Maharashtrian

), even there it's old Marathi, so not always easy to comprehend, and the Hindi bhajans-if anyone sings them. My preference is always for the main items though, rather than the tukkadas (again, I usually prefer the "sound" of the main pieces).

Also, I thought I should tell everyone that I have North Indian and West Indian relatives in Chennai who love Carnatic music.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 16 Jan 2009, 20:13

lifeisasong,
Delighted to see you in these parts. I'll make sure I'll send you any lecdems that I have that are in English.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 16 Jan 2009, 22:56

The current "CM abhangists" having lived in Bombay have good marathi pronounciation.

"CM abhangists"-can we not substitute this with some other term?-something better?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Jan 2009, 23:35

Punarvasu wrote: "CM abhangists"-can we not substitute this with some other term?-something better?

Abhangkars...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 17 Jan 2009, 00:18

Ha Ha!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Jan 2009, 00:28

lifeisasong wrote: I am craving to know more and feeling utterly left out ( I am at that stage where the desert meets the rain-perhaps this stage will last a life time). For example: Dr. Vedavalli's lec dem on Varnams, I downloaded it with great excitement only to find it was in Tamil.

Lifeisasong,

Smt. Vedavalli MUST have heard you! A few weeks ago, when I was in India, I picked up a book of her Lec-Dems translated into English. The style of the translation is very true to the original tamizh (I can vouch for the ones I have had the pleasure of attending), and yet, the language (English) is flawless. Therefore, this book is a joy to read, in addition to its obvious musical value*.

[*I mention this only only to contrast it to another book I bought and read eagerly - it was such a huge disappointment because it was merely transliterated from the original tamizh, and the language was butchered to the point of unidentifiable mutilation. It made for VERY difficult reading, let alone understanding! I remember feeling that if I were the author or editor of that book, I would rather the earth split and swallowed me than having it published without extensive rewrites!]

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 17 Jan 2009, 01:16

Careful people, don't OD on abhangs, they might give you an abhangover. Abhangs are just tukkadas, which word itself incidentally I suspect is an abstraction of tukkaram+ramdas.

BTW, Coolji thanks for those excellent clips.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Jan 2009, 03:21

"Abhangover"- I like that! Yes, they're just 5 minutes of fun which apparently a large cross section of audience enjoys, so why not?!

kjrao · Post by **kjrao** » 17 Jan 2009, 04:52

Branding an abhang or a devaranama 'just 5 minutes of fun' is equivalent to branding all the holymen of India as entertainers !!!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Jan 2009, 09:03

No, no, kjrao, I meant it more as "5 minutes of fun (read catchy) infusion of North Indian music in a CM concert," and I was talking only musically (not lyrically)! Please don't take offense.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jan 2009, 09:50

Punarvasu,
You an Abhayankar! (azhagAy Solli abayam tarubavar)

Uday,
Just a wild guess (no erudition here): from TukDA (little piece?)

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 17 Jan 2009, 10:21

Of course Arasi. I'm just injecting some low caliber nonsense.

BTW, we shouldn't digress from mridangam's original question.

I personally don't have a problem if the cultural exchange is one-sided.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 17 Jan 2009, 19:41

This thread has really taken off with a bhang, hasn't it?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 17 Jan 2009, 20:44

I thought I'd save that for Holi!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 17 Jan 2009, 21:08

You should give up this Holier than thou attitude.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 17 Jan 2009, 21:09

arasi,

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 17 Jan 2009, 22:52

bilahari wrote:"Abhangover"- I like that! Yes, they're just 5 minutes of fun which apparently a large cross section of audience enjoys, so why not?!

And while on the topic, to those who complain that a-bhang causes too much fun, ab-hang loose!

Couldn't resist,
Then Paanan

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 18 Jan 2009, 06:30

vainika wrote:This thread has really taken off with a bhang, hasn't it?

vainika, do you mean bhAng? LOL

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 18 Jan 2009, 11:39

tsk tsk... abhangovers and bhAng - we rasikas are really tripping, aren't we?

lifeisasong · Post by **lifeisasong** » 18 Jan 2009, 17:17

rshankar wrote:
Smt. Vedavalli MUST have heard you! A few weeks ago, when I was in India, I picked up a book of her Lec-Dems translated into English. The style of the translation is very true to the original tamizh (I can vouch for the ones I have had the pleasure of attending), and yet, the language (English) is flawless. Therefore, this book is a joy to read, in addition to its obvious musical value*.

Please could you tell me the title. Is it accompanied by a cd? Thanks!