TNS Krishna Tattvaloka

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 25 Jan 2009, 22:44

Just remembered that I wanted to ask abt TNS Krishna's concert at Tattvaloka given on December 19 or 20. He sang an alapana in Hemavathi, during which he appeared to sing Amrithavarshini. Is Hemavathi which is a melakartha, can it also be a vivadhi? I dont know what TNS Krishna's exercise is called. Sruthibedham? I am not very sure if it indeed was amrithavarshini, given that it was rather fleeting. Any individual who attended the concert... that can clarify?

The concert was truly fantastic though, with a Lalitha in there that had a memerizing shlokham.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 25 Jan 2009, 22:53

hEmavathi is not a vivadi rAgam.

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 26 Jan 2009, 00:16

So, in general, can a melakartha ever be a vivadhi?

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 26 Jan 2009, 01:05

I think they (melakarthas) most certainly can be vivadhi. You might find this thread interesting:
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... -raga.html

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jan 2009, 04:37

hemavathi: s r2 g2 m2 p d2 n2 s.

If we do sruthi-bedham on g2: g2 m2 p d2 n2 s R2 G2 <=> s r3 g3 m2 p d2 n3 s (kOsalam, mela #71, a vivadi mela). So this could be what was done.

btw, amrtavarshini ( s g3 m2 p n3 s ) is not a vivadi raga

Arun

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 26 Jan 2009, 05:30

mahesh3 wrote:So, in general, can a melakartha ever be a vivadhi?

Ofcourse , out of the 72 mElakartha rAgams, 40 are vivAdi dOsha rAgams.The mELakartAragams are divided into 12 chakrAs of 6 rAgams each. All the 24 mElas from the 1st,6th, 7th and 12th chakras are vivAdi and from the remaining 8 chakras, the first and last mElA kartas are vivadi-(totalling to 16) and together, 40 are vivAdi dOsha mELakartA rAgams.Some have one vivAdi swaram, some have 2.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 26 Jan 2009, 05:32

Some musicians have the habit of doing shrutibhedam in a melakarta ragam, omitting one or two swaras which result in a new scale which is shADava or auDava; in this case he must have omitted m2 and s of the original rAgam-ie. hEmavathi which must have resulted in the auDava amritavarshiNi.
If he had not omitted the swaras, the vivadi rAgaam 'kOsalam'(as mentioned by arunk) must have resulted.

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 26 Jan 2009, 05:57

would it be fair to say that vivadi ragas did not exist before Venkatamakhi formulated the 72 melakartha scheme?

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 26 Jan 2009, 06:05

I think venkatamakhin formulated the mELakartA scheme- to accommodate the existing rAgams as well as those that are likely to emerge -meaning he made provisions for the new ones also. Knowledgeable forumites may throw more light on this.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jan 2009, 06:13

venkatpv wrote:would it be fair to say that vivadi ragas did not exist before Venkatamakhi formulated the 72 melakartha scheme?

As punarvasu says venkatamakhin formulated a system to account for existing ragas (and allow for newer possibilities). The vivadhi swaras came about primarily due to 3 ragas: nATa, varALi, and (old) mukhAri (i.e. kanakAngi) - venkatamakhin explicitly gives these ragas as examples when explaining the vivadhi swaras.

Arun

PS: although like i have mentioned elsewhere, there is a distinct possibility that this old mukhAri arose due to misinterpretation of the swara positions in the earlier (grama-murchana) system of music. Nevertheless he knew of a raga with the kanakangi swaras and uses it to explain vivadhi swaras (particularly N1). Also, rAmamaTya, I also believe vidyaranya (by inference), who were earlier to venkatamakhin also mention vivadhi ragas and melas.

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 26 Jan 2009, 09:20

thanks arun and punarvasu. Likely he did the transition into auDava amrithavarshini, because I am quite sure the sruthi bedham was not into Kosalam, which I have heard a version of Sanjay's once before.