Dr. Shrikaanth K Murthy

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 May 2006, 22:23

Reference verses for the above

svayam varE kila prAptA tvam anEna yaSasvinA |
rAghaveNa iti mE sItE kathA Srutim upAgataA || (ayOdhyA kANDa, sarga 118, verse24)

tasya buddhir iyam jAtA cintayAnasya santatam |
svayam varam tanUjAyaAH kariShyAmi iti dhImataH || (same, verse38)

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 01 May 2006, 22:23

I do see a + sign over P in swaras Kiran mentiond. What does that mean?

Vasanta ragam represent a feeling of confidence, courage and boldness.

This Ragam is so apt -where in Ayodhya a festive mood turns gloomy, still fits Sri Rama 's confidence and courage.

There is another song kandEn kandEn in vasanta which I like a lot.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 May 2006, 23:02

Shankar
We wish to keep these interesting discussions to a minimum in deference to DRS's main theme. I agree with him that we could pursue them freely in another thread maybe a monthe later. Sociological issues indeed fascinate me!

To respond to your query briefly, there is no sanctified wedding in Hindu system called 'svayamvara'. It is not recognized if a woman seeks her own husband! The eight vedic forms approved are

Brahmo daivastataivarShah prajapatyastatha 'surah
Gandharvo rakShasascaiva paishavaShTamah smrtah-
---Manusmrti, 3. 21

AcArya explains them very clearly
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part18/chap5.htm

sIta's wedding falls under prajapatya since Janaka was seeking a bridegroom though the contest of bending the bow is incidental. There is an interesting 'folklore' allusion that sItA was indeed older than Rama! It was not unusual among kShatriyas to marry women older than them. Vaishyas generally do, our chettiars for example!). Now I have digressed enough

Back to vasanta...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 May 2006, 23:53

Keen observation Kiran and Suji. You make good students. Kiran, I remeber you asking about cyutapancama. Now that is the cyutapancama usage in vasanta. Listen carefully to sahana and I singing that bit in the suLAdi. You will clearly note that that swara is certainly above madhyama but no way near dhaivata. It is not all that uncommon either but just not recognised. Thats all.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 01 May 2006, 23:57

DRS
I have noticed it when both you and Sahana were singing the Kahnda. However, Sahana dint use it when she was improvising the raaga. Or did she?

If she did then I would have to go back to the audio file...

Thanks though for that interesting point....

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 00:05

DRS
I have noticed it when both you and Sahana were singing the Kahnda. However, Sahana dint use it when she was improvising the raaga. Or did she?

If she did then I would have to go back to the audio file...

Thanks though for that interesting point....

O great! So it was nothing new for you then

Well rather than me doing all the work, I will entrust finding cyutapancama in the AlApane part to you. if you find it, do point it out so we can all appreciate.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 00:43

Neither Dikshitar(Both Raamachandram-TKG`s notation and Chatur raagamalika-again TKG) nor Thyagaraja( seethamma Maayamma) did not use panchamaa any where. Which is still followed even in today`s Vasantha. SSP however, uses P in the raaga lakshana.

The cyutapancama is clearly notated in several places in rAmacandram (SSP). It occurs in the pallavi itself.

They also occur in sItamma mAyamma. For e.g

S , | , M | , M || GMDN | DM- GM |P+MG~, ||
sI-----tam-ma mA------------yam-----ma

Listen to sowmya`s rendition here. cyutapancama occurs in numerous places.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/W4C ... As1NMvHdW/

As I said, people do not recognise it most of the time and dont acknowledge it under the mistaken notion that it is wrong to have pancama in vasant. Nothing can be further from to truth than this.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 May 2006, 01:13

I was taught Vasanta varnam without P
So what is the Aro. Ava for vasanta?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 May 2006, 01:15

DRS

Here is the MIDIfied vasanta
http://rapidshare.de/files/19381225/Vas ... 1.mp3.html
In view of the high gamaka content I really had to handle with kid gloves and I think it is reasonable (given machine limitations!).

Thanks for that elaboration on the cytapancamam. I have long wondered how it is used. It will be nice if you can give a short lecdem indicating clearly its place in vasanta. Your shruti is just perfect and is ideal for such a demonstration. Do consider!

I get a strong feeling of both Ramachandram and sItamma as I hear the MIDified (without the words confounding the mind). Is it correct to surmise that you were thinking of them while setting the music for this segment?

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 02 May 2006, 01:25

O great! So it was nothing new for you then

Well rather than me doing all the work, I will entrust finding cyutapancama in the AlApane part to you. if you find it, do point it out so we can all appreciate.

DRS
Apologies!!! I dint mean any disrespect....

As CML suggested please give a brief lecdem on role of Cyuthapanchama in Vasantha. ..

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 May 2006, 01:38

Suji
The 'ninnukOri' in vasanta of taccUr singarAcAri certainly does not have any pancamam in it. Hence I am all the more curious about the cytapancamam!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 May 2006, 01:44

http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... nal/music/

This is one site I learn T's Kritis from..
all the kritis sung in Vasanta by Dr Shivkumar do not have P
so i am curious too...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 02:24

I would like you all to put to use the copies of SSP that you have, rather than look at all sources that dont have cyutapancama. My point is while this swara is not shown in notations or in scale at present, the usage is no way rare. As for the scale, SSP gives it thus

SG3M1D2N3S* | S*NDNDMGMP+MGRS ||

Simplified, this becomes,

SGMDNS* | S*NDMGMP+MGRS ||

What we usually come across is

S(M)GMDNS* |SNDMGRS ||

This is fine. In which case, treat the cyutapancama as a viSESha prayOga. But I would like you all to be aware that this is a vibrant and indispensable part of vasanta. I really would like you all to try and note where the cyutapancama occurs in Sowmya's singing. The only way to remember this forever is by doing so. Please note down the timescale when these occur and post it here. It occurs in plenty so you are not looking for a needle in a haystack. Then try replacing each of these with D2 and note how odd it sounds. This is a practical exercise. I will wait for your posts.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 May 2006, 02:28

Thanks for the scales and explaining the vishesha prayoga.I can understand only when I try it out myself..
Will look into soumya's ...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 02:30

CML
That MIDI version is (pardon me) atrocious. It is no way near the usual good quality results you post.

I get a strong feeling of both Ramachandram and sItamma as I hear the MIDified (without the words confounding the mind). Is it correct to surmise that you were thinking of them while setting the music for this segment?

Not consciously. But I guess these influences are unavoidable as they are drilled into our mind by frequent listening.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 02 May 2006, 02:34

I will try too..

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 May 2006, 03:00

I think the first phrase with P occurs at 28-30 sec in soumya's recording.
4th sangati ending..

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 03:03

Vasanta ragam represent a feeling of confidence, courage and boldness.

This Ragam is so apt -where in Ayodhya a festive mood turns gloomy, still fits Sri Rama 's confidence and courage.

Correct. vasanta evokes vIra rasa and also SRngAra rasa.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 03:05

I think the first phrase with P occurs at 28-30 sec in soumya's recording.
4th sangati ending..

Precisely. Accurate observation.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 May 2006, 03:07

I think the first phrase with P occurs at 28-30 sec in soumya's recording.
4th sangati ending..
Precisely. Accurate observation.

YEY!!
I very rarely can identify swaras in sahitya even if I have learnt.
This has been a good excercise...

BTW Precise and Accurate mean different in statistics.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 05:46

[quote=""Suji Ram "]BTW Precise and Accurate mean different in statistics.[/quote]

Any reason why you edited your post and specifically mentioned this?
Your reply was bothe precise and accurate.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 May 2006, 06:18

[quote=""Suji Ram "]BTW Precise and Accurate mean different in statistics.

Any reason why you edited your post and specifically mentioned this?
Your reply was bothe precise and accurate.

[/quote]

DRS
If you draw a circle and put points very near the circle then it is called precise. If the points are within the circle then it is accurate.
We had a scientific debate recently on these terms and also how the English use them. 8)
But now I got your point- I was accurate

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 06:22

Suji
You were accurate in identifying the concerned swara. And you were precise in specifying the time scale. I know statistics too.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 May 2006, 06:57

Hmmmm..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 May 2006, 12:02

Suji,
AFAIK, AK's 'kanDEn! kanDEn! kanDEn! sItaiayai kanDEn, rAghavA!' was originally set to bhAgEsrI...and even though Smt. Sowmya and Sri TNS sing it in vasnatA, I have to admit that the mood of sItA hanging on to her life as described in the song counterbalanced by hanumAn's joy on having found her are better expressed in bhAgEsrI.
As an aside,
In the nAma rAmAyaNam (once again popularized by Smt MSS through one of the BPRM LPs), the araNya kAnDam is 14 lines long!
Ravi

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 02 May 2006, 12:11

Yes I prefer the bhAgeshri version too. Bombay Jayashri has rendered this version in a commercial recording.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 16:57

kaNDEn kaNDEn in vasanta is available to hear on MIO. If anyone has bAgESri version, have it ready for sundara kANDA(Not just yet). It will be great to hear it then.

Kiran- any joy with finding the cyutapancama. suji has picked one. There are others for you to pick up.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 02 May 2006, 22:13

DRS

MIO doesnt work on my Mac. So I will listen to Raamachandram by GNB. Will get back to you...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 23:10

araNya kANDa, rAga -asAvEri
Word for word meaning

tunga- great; RShi- sage; kuDuta- given; dhanu- bow; tUNIru- quiver; koNDavu~n- he who took:
cangalu^- fickle; asuri- demoness; lAlasa- lust, greed ; bhangu- obstruction/shatter; gai- do; aNDavu~n- he who told;
binga- seemingly gold/mica(Called kAge bangAra meaning crow`s gold);
mRgatte- the deer`s; AyasA-life/life breath; vEru^- root; iScu koNDavu~n- He who pulled out;
a^ngu- nowhwere; sati- wife; kANAde- without finding/being unable to see; halubi- lamenting/crying;
jompa- swoon/faint; uNDavu~n- He who suffered/experienced.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 23:11

ciTTeswara
rAga- asAvEri; miSra jhampe tALa

R2 , M D P M R | G~ | , R ||
S N# S P , D# S | R | M P ||
D R* S* M* G* , R* S*- P D N1 , D P- | M R2 | G , R S ||

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 May 2006, 23:23

I am not trying to be picky. But I do want to understand. The following is the Fourier picture of Sowmya's sitamma from 25secs to 30secs (total6 secs)
http://rapidshare.de/files/19456705/cyu ... m.jpg.html
Here is the audio for the 6 secs
http://rapidshare.de/files/19457820/cyu ... m.wav.html

I have ascertained Sowmya is singing at 5 kaTTai (196 Hz).
She sings
sItamma maayamma
till the beginning of 4 secs.
Between 3 to 4 secs she is approximately reaching the madhyamam (517Hz actual madhyamam should be 523Hz). Is this the cyutapancamam?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 May 2006, 00:01

CML
I appreciate your wanting to know. But I do not understand these Sruti frequencies. But I certainly understand music and what cyutapancama is. I should be higher tha the usual madhyama anyway.
With what I know, I think there is something wrong in your values. Now if S is 196Hz, how can M be in 523 Hz. The tAra Shadja itself will only be 392 Hz right?

cyutapancama also occurs at 3:08-09 and 3:17-3:18.

Kiran
Check with Ravishankar about how to play MIO on Mac. He will help you out.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 May 2006, 01:59

The great sage in this part is Agastya who gave Him special bow and arrow.
asuri= SUrpanaka

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 May 2006, 02:08

DRS

I am trying to understand these subtle points both visually as well as aurally. That is the reason for resorting to technology and maths.

I was analyzing suji's claim that sowmya is touching cytapancamam between 28 to 30 seconds.

In the picture that I have she is atarting at shadjam sa = 196(which is the male shruti) X 2 = 392 Hz (female voice).
Hence the madhyamam for her is 392 X 4/3 = 523 Hz.
Her regular pancamam is 392 X3/2 = 588Hz.
(note that the multiplication by 2 is to accord with the graph where the basal frequency is not displayed!)

But at the end of 3 secs when she finished '...maayamma' she is 517 Hz which is lower than even madhyamam and hence she cannot be touching cyutapancamam. That was my paradox.

While your ears can easily resolve these subtlities I need a prop to latch on. I will look carefully now at 3:08 to 3:09 as well as 3:17to 3:18.

I certainly would have gotten it if you had demonstrated since your shruti alignment is immaculate but it is indeed hunting for the needlw in the haystack with other 'famous' performers.

I sure hope I am not holding you back! I will catchup with you since I will have to spend a long time to get this ragamalika fully understood (musically!).

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 03 May 2006, 02:26

DRS

Here is GNB`s Ramchandram. I tried to figure out this cythapanchama thing(Hope Iam not wrong). Chyuthapancham occurs within first 7 seconds. Between Chandram-Bhaavayaami.

http://rapidshare.de/files/19472957/Ram ... a.mp3.html

Please correct me if Iam wrong. I would quite like to know how this works...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 May 2006, 04:08

Suji- You have correctly identified the references.

Kiran- There is no cyutapancama where you have shown. Anyway, it is not easy to find it in a heavy- birka-laden style syuch as GNB's. If you can, listen to sowmya`s recording or I am afraid you will have to go back to the suLAdi and listen carefully.

Ravi- Please post the running meaning? ANd get yoyr mythili Saran gupt references ready.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 May 2006, 04:53

Didn't M S gupt write something about Urmila?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 May 2006, 04:58

Suji
Save up your questions for the rAmAyaNa thread. Not here please unless directly related. Even I have stories and questions about UrmiLa.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 May 2006, 23:25

Thanks to Suji and DRS for explaining some of the details here.

In this kAnda the composer (DRS) paints a lyrical word-picture of some of the expereinces of Lord rAma in the forest in the first part of his exile:
I hope the running meaning is somewhat in keeping with the original!

After receiving a divine bow and a quiver with a never-ending supply of arrows (from the great sage agastya - in the nAma rAmAyaNam this is surmised in the line: agastyAnugraha vardhita rAm); destroying the unseemly lust of the demoness shUrpanakhA; and putting an end to the unnaturally golden deer's life, He suffered untold agonies when he discovered that his beloved sItA (his prANapriya sakhi) was lost (kidnapped).

If DRS and CML will indulge me briefly, I want to share a couple of very 'telling' verses from M. S. Gupta's 'panchvaTI'. The entire poem is set during these years of the vanvAs.

After being told off by rAma, shUrpaNakhA approaches lakshmaN, and this is how he reacts:

'chakAchound sI lagI dEkhkar
prakar jyOti ki wOh jwAlA
ni:ssankOch khaDI thI sammukh
Ek hAsyavAdinI bAlA
ratnAbharan bharE angO mein
aisE sundar lagtE thE
jaisE prafull vallI par
sow sow jugnU jagmag jagtE thE'

lakshmaN was startled to see shUrpanakhA who appeared like a glittering bolt of lightning, and stood before him with a smile on her face, without even a trace of (maidenly) shyness. With her bejewelled limbs, she looked like a creeper 'ablaze' with a horde of fireflies.

She then asks him to marry her. Aghast at this suggestion:

lakshmaN bOlE "pAp shAnt hO! pAp shAnt hO!
ki mein vivAhit hUn bAlE."
"par kyA purush nahIn hOtE
dO dO dArAOn wAlE?
nar krit shAstrOn kE sab
bandhan hai nArI kO hI lEkar
apnE liyE sabhI suvidhAyEn
pahlE hI kar baiTTE nar"

lakshmaN says, please don't blaspheme, maiden, I am a married man. shUrpaNakhA (she is called vAkselvI - a very clever woman who knew how to manipulate language - and there is also something about how she describes rAma as punDarIkavisAlAksha, that is supposed to be special) retorts: "but aren't there men that have 2 or more wives? While the brunt of 'man'-made laws are meant to be borne by women, the men took care to make allowances for themselves early on"! The dialog (vAk vivAd)between these two goes on and on before he cuts her ears and nose (mAnabhngam), and makes for some very intersting and amusing reading.

Ravi

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 May 2006, 23:31

Suji,
I can talk about MS Gupta's 'urmiLa prasang' in the rAmAyaN thread.
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 May 2006, 23:35

Very neat summary ravi. One small correction(apart from the change in vibhakti)-

After receiving a divine bow and a quiver with a never-ending supply of arrows (from the great sage agastya - in the nAma rAmAyaNam this is surmised in the line: agastyAnugraha vardhita rAm); He who ordered lakShmaNa to destroy the unseemly lust of the demoness shUrpanakhA; He who put an end to the unnaturally golden deer's life, He , that suffered untold agonies when he discovered that his beloved sItA (his prANapriya sakhi) was lost (kidnapped).

As with the dhanyAsi khaNDa, there are finer points and meanings within meaning. Please try and note them.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 May 2006, 23:41

Ravi,
That is great!! My hindi teacher (who was tamilian)often sang loud the poetries of Maithili saran gupt. It brought back good memories of my school days.
My mom has books of his while studying in dakshin hindi prashar sabha- with meanings writen in tamil all over the pages. I hope she still has them..I hope to collect the treasure.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 May 2006, 23:53

Suji,
You should! MS Gupta and his brother siyArAm sharaN gupt were some of my favorite poets, other than SK Chauhan. I learnt their poetry, meanings and all in Hindi, and still love my notes. I really admire these parents who named their sons so lyrically (like the former foriegn secy umAshankar dIxit - his brother's were bhavAnIshankar, and kAtyAyinIshankar!)

Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 May 2006, 23:58

I know I am digressing but speaking of beautiful names for children, kuvempu(K.V.PuTTappa), the kannaDa literateur named his 2 sons kOkilOdaya caitra and pUrNacandra tEjasvi.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 May 2006, 00:55

shankar

Thanks for that preview. I am waiting for DRS to get ready to start the Ramayan thread. I will not start any discussion here. But those killer lines:
"par kyA purush nahIn hOtE
dO dO dArAOn wAlE?

have touched a sensitive nerve

MSG is a master of vyanjana

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 May 2006, 02:15

DRS
Here is my cyutapancama analysis. I took Sowmya's audio (3:08 to 3:09) for analysis since 3:17 to 3:18 is just a carbon copy.
The audio starting from 3:07 till 3:09 (2 secs ) is
http://rapidshare.de/files/19549492/Cyu ... 9.wav.html
The words are 'Ta paraa..sha'
The fourier plot is
http://rapidshare.de/files/19549552/cyu ... 9.JPG.html
As I have marked the frequencies on the plot:
Her ma = 258 (close to the computed 262Hz)
The excursion to 264 does not even take her to the pratimadhyamam (277Hz). But I agree we do hear a slight elevation. Hence for me cyutapancamam is still a ghost

I will also look at your rendering in the ragamalika. These analyses take a lot of time

vk

I have to confess CM is an art and exact science has to accept defeat

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 May 2006, 02:39

We do have to mention that both SUrpanakA(demoness) and mAreecA (demon) are in disguise.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 May 2006, 02:47

We do have to mention that both SUrpanakA(demoness) and mAreecA (demon) are in disguise.

The first part is not mentioned in vAlmIki. He does not say that SUrpaNakhi comes in disguise. It is just an interpretation thats all which I think most other poets have caught on to.

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 04 May 2006, 14:46

Rshankar wrote

The women of the village whispered to sItA:
which of these two is your husband and which one is your brother-in-law?
sItA smiled and said sweetly,
the dark one is my husband, and the fair one, my BIL.

DRS CMLOVER, Others ,

Pleeeeeease forgive me for digressing here, but on reading these lines, I felt like sharing Tulsi's words. (I am sorry I really could not wait for the ramayana thread.) GOswamiji has dealt with this scene so beautifully, so artfully, I have quote him:-

The village women ask Sita "The two men are so alike, Tell us O Lady, how do they stand in relation to you?"

To which, Sita looks at them once, smiles bashfully and casting Her eyes to the earth, SHe replies "
Sahaj Subhay Subhag tan gore
Naam Lakhanu laghu devar More"

The One who is immaculate in manners and is fair complexioned, His name is Lakshman and he is my younger Brother in law.
Sita has no hesitation in introducing lakshman, for after all he is like a son to Her. And She hoped that the women would automatically understand that the other one in Her Husband. But the rustic village women, not understanding that cultured women would never talk about their husbands in public, let alone take their names, press Her to identify the other dark complexioned man. At which,

Bahuri badanu bidhu anchal Dhanki
Piya tan chitaye Bhaun kari banki
khanjan manju tirichi nayani
nij pati kaheu tinhi Siya sayani

She veiled Her moon like face with the end of Her sari and cast a sidelong glance with Her eyes at Her beloved Lord and then with the movements of Her eyes indicated to them the HE was Her Husband.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 May 2006, 18:30

They are just so lovely!
Thanks for sharing.
Ravi