Vamsavati

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 20 Jan 2009, 06:16

Here is an article on Raga Vamsavati http://guruguha.org/blog/2009/01/raga-l ... -vamsavati by Ravi Rajagopalan

This is the first of a series of posts on Raga Lakshanas. Please take some time to read through and let us know your feedback or if you
have additional perspective on the raga.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 20 Jan 2009, 09:55

I found it tremendously informative. Since the author has mentioned available renditions of vamSavati rAgA, I believe there is a rendition of vamSavati Siva yuvati by Sri Vijay Siva on sangeethapriya. I recall seeing a rendition of the song by Smt. Vedavalli in one of the setlists posted by bharath. Will see if I can dig up a recording.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 20 Jan 2009, 12:25

Thanks Vidya. Eagerly await updates! A small request if it fits into your scheme of things - can you being with ragas that fall in the "middle category" in terms of popularity, especially those of Janya-heavy Melas such as H-kambhoji, MMG, K-priya etc. Examples would be ragas like Bowli, Narayanagowla, Surutti, Devamanohari and the like

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 20 Jan 2009, 12:51

Just read the post. Wow! I think we have a Carnatic Parrikar in the making here! Keep it going Vidya - I think you are well on your way to a landmark tome on raga lakshanas. Couple of questions though:

Could you explain ettiya/erakka jarus - sounds like updaward/downward jarus but I don't think I have understood how D3 is to be handled
You mention that leaving out D3 would make the raga close to Dhavalambari but the Nishadam of Dhavalambari is actually the same D3!

Eagerly looking forward to updates!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 20 Jan 2009, 12:52

Also wondering whether the renditions mentioned are up on Sangeethapriya...will also do a search to check

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 20 Jan 2009, 13:05

Just checked - Vamsavati of DKJ abd Vijay Siva are on the site and BHaktavatsalam by SSI and Lalitha Sivakumar. Kalpagam Mami's rendition is absent though.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 20 Jan 2009, 13:39

Wow, what a detailed analysis. I've become interested in listening to renditions in the raga after reading about it! Usually it's the other way round.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 Jan 2009, 00:04

I heard SSI's clip - Vidya is right - the vivaditwa seems to have been airbrushed away, making it very close to D2. I feel an accent on the D3 is very important to establish the raga's identity.

I also heard Lalitha Sivakumar's version and I must say I liked her version a lot more. I did not get access to Kalpagam mami's version

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 21 Jan 2009, 00:16

Nice - meticulous analysis by Ravi Rajagopalan! Vidya, Ravi, and others - could we have the (copyleft) songs linked along with each blogpost for reference? Thanks

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 Jan 2009, 00:44

Sorry I seem to have missed the fact that the blog is actually by Ravi rajagopalan!

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 21 Jan 2009, 12:40

Thanks to everyone here for their valuable feedback. Please keep it coming as it furthers my
understanding as well and contributes to making the post itself, better

Prashant:

I did hear Vijay Shiva's version of "Vamsavati Sivayuvati" and found it to be aligned to Smt Kalpagam Svaminathan's version and hence took hers as the benchmark. If you have a recording of Smt Vedavalli, please do pass it on.

Vijay: My mention of Dhavalambari was in passing as its the first raga in that chakra. My point was the D3 needs to be exactly intoned at its svarasthana. Glossing over the note might dilute the raga itself making it something else.

On your other point on the jaaru, here is my understanding as to how one needs to sing D3 in
Vamsavati

. As N3 is the only entry-cum -exit point for D3, from N3 "glide" into D3, make that wee bit decrease in the frequency to reach the D3 semitone without pausing .And once you have reached D3,
immediately start gliding up back to N3 without pausing. Pausing any where during this entire operation would make D3 nyasa which shouldnt happen.But the point is through your voice you "should" touch D3. In one wholesome sweep, probably like an eagle gliding down to catch a fish near the water surface, picking up its prey and flying away as you blink,without getting itself into the water, the D3 is to be touched all within that one tala akshara and you should be back at N3 for your onward journey to Sa or Pa

. To what extent D3 ( or to generalize , any vivadhi note) can/should be touched is a matter of interpretation/controversy. I have found that in practice the intonation is either weak form or strong form.Take your pick

. I will shortly post a few clippings as examples which may serve to illustrate my understanding. While this is the vocal approach , on the veena, while you glide from N3, the D3 is played via the nokku. Vainika can possibly add to this as to how the string needs to be plucked/pulled to get the desired effect. SD adds the nokku for D3 in his notation , IIRC.

Also the "Lalitha Sivakumar" labeled version is not hers, IIRC. Its perhaps Mambalam Sisters ( a duet) which I listened & referred to in my post.

Raj

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 Jan 2009, 18:30

Ravi thanks for explaining. The illustration about the eagle/fish was quite illuminating - thanks!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Jan 2009, 18:43

I liked it a lot. Thanks for taking the effort.

If I were to make a suggestion - IMHO audio snippets for the technicalities would add a lot. Like a picture, it also would be worth a thousand words.

Arun

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 Jan 2009, 21:08

I second Arun's suggestion

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 22 Jan 2009, 10:50

Thanks all. I will try to get the audio clips organized for the next post. I do have a copy of Smt.Kalpakam swaminathan's Bhaktavatsalam which I will upload sometime soon.
Prashant,
Smt.R.Vedavalli sang Vamsavati as part of her Kalanidhi concert. If my memory serves me right, her rendition was consistent with the
approach of their school w.r.to singing vivadi ragas ie marked by the non-emphasis on the Dhaivata. I would like to revisit that rendition if possible.
Vijay,
Both the DKJ and the Vijay Siva clips on sangeethapriya are only that of Vijay Siva and a case of mislabelling similar to Ravi's note on Lalita Sivakumar.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 22 Jan 2009, 11:18

Thanks Vidya. Eagerly await Kalpagam Mami's Bhaktavatsalam as well as the next post. I would encourage fellow forum members to take advantage of the educational possibilities of this excellent initiative. Vidya/Ravi can we aim for a raga a week or would that be too much of a stretch?

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 23 Jan 2009, 12:16

Isn't there also a krithi by DRS in this ragam? Any recording?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Jan 2009, 12:45

bilahari wrote:Isn't there also a krithi by DRS in this ragam? Any recording?

DRS has posted a recording in the above blog in the comments. Should be still active

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 23 Jan 2009, 18:57

raviraj wrote:To what extent D3 ( or to generalize , any vivadhi note) can/should be touched is a matter of interpretation/controversy. I have found that in practice the intonation is either weak form or strong form.Take your pick . I will shortly post a few clippings as examples which may serve to illustrate my understanding.
Raj

Thanks Raj for your explanations. One clarification I seek is whether you use the terms 'weak' and 'strong' to refer to the (a) duration of the note (b) whether it is approached directly from a lower note or by means of a downward glide from a higher note, or (c) some combination of the above.

With respect to duration - I suspect it is an intrinsic part of the rAga lakShaNa as embodied in kRtis, rather than left to interpretation. For e.g. R3 in nAta and jyOtisvarUpiNI, G1 in varALi, D3 in nItimatI, and so on.

With respect to direct/indirect approach I am less sure, though I suspect the indirect approach is more likely to be encountered in compositions of those following the asampUrNa mEla paddhati.

Feel free to refute/support with examples...

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 23 Jan 2009, 20:55

Thanks for that, Suji! Hadn't read the comments on the blog.

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 23 Jan 2009, 23:22

Vainika:

On your point 1:

When I meant weak/strong - I meant the intonation of the svara per se.The duration of the note, the mode of intonation( say via jaaru) etc are the operational elements of it. And its in the very intonation is where I see a fundamental problem.

Lets take the case of Nattai and R3. R3 not withstanding it being a vivadi note, is the jeeva svara for Nattai. And so naturally should get emphasized. Now the problem comes when the vidvan thinks that intoning R3 a vivadi note is a no-no. I am sure Mahaganpathim in not in Gambhira nattai. Only SSI can get away doing this that too in the Academy !

http://sangeethamshare.org/ksj/Semmangu ... -Natta.wma

He repeats the same in Bhaktavatsalam. In the instances where D3 in encountered., he doesnt intone it, leave aside duration and the jaaru element. I am sure one would agree that it is not justified by the raga lakshana and the intent of the composer.

http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gurugu ... i--SSI.mp3

Let me take a non vivadhi instance. Udayaravichandrika of the Dikshitar school. The "right"emphasis on N3 nishada is important & bears out the notation in the SSP. Consider the 2 examples of how N3 is intoned.

http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gurugu ... iraman.mp3
http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gurugu ... alli.R.mp3

I sincerely feel that the udayaravicandika painted by the Prof is more emotive with the requisite emphasis on Ni as in "Yogini" for example & is in line with the spirit of the composition.

On how to intone vivadhi notes -Sample these:

http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/thyaga ... di--SK.mp3
http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/thyaga ... di--SK.mp3

I invite attention to the way D3N3 is intoned & executed by SKR in his Naganandhini alapana and the kalpanasvara section. The sallies he makes to D3 with N3 as nyasa and then moving to the tara shadja is a veritable lesson for us, IMVHO.

Sadly much of the ragas sporting D3N3 for example got mutilated- eg Hamsanadham and kaikavasi.
I will u/l a relevant excerpt from a lec dem as a part of my next posting, where Prof SRJ sings
Vachamagocharame in Kaikavasi (which should be sung with D3N3 as a janya of Nitimati). He illustrates
how PD3N3S has to sung P/D3/N3/S and says in Tamil that it should be like "vazhapazhathula oosi ethaaramadiri "-roughly translated to mean that it has be sung dexterously like inserting a needle through a banana.

On Point 2:

On "duration", you are spot on. Its implicit in the kriti and the raga lakshana.Aesthetics and harmonics are the key determinants and that is the model Dikshitar adopted, a model where he had 3 variables:
density of usage, mode of execution and duration as key components. Take Nasamani - though R3 is vivadhi he still starts of the kriti 'Sri Rama Sarasvathi' with R3 with one full akshara devoted for R3. I wonder how the composition will sound with a "glossed over" R3

.The beauty of R3 made Dikshitar structure "his" Nasamani" with the play he had on the variables.

On Point 3

I think I answered it most in 2 above. I dont see this in the sampurna scheme. Unless you emphasize the vivadhi notes making them even nyasa as needed , you wouldnt be doing justice to a Kantamani or a Jyothisvarupini. I guess manodharma and aesthetics take over . IMO, the variables logic apply for the asampurna melas and Dikshitar kritis in particular. And so if you want to sing Vishvambari take Kotisvara Iyer's composition. Do not mutilate Dikshitar's Vamsavati as in here:

http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gurugu ... akumar.mp3

Again this is my personal opinion & understanding based on my limited abilities & I dont profess any expertise. IMVHO I think that vivadhi ragas are best heard from the likes of Sri SKR, Sri S Rajam and Prof SRJ. That said,whenever I think of Sankarabharanam - unfailingly my mind moves on to the UNESCO recording of Semmangudi's Dakshinamurte.

( PS: I hope the links work and they still point to the right files, I intend you all to listen. If not let me know I will u/l relevant one on the basis of "fair use" copy right/left/center

)

Raj

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 24 Jan 2009, 00:06

Thanks Arun, Raj and others for your points.

ananth krishna · Post by **ananth krishna** » 24 Jan 2009, 09:32

i thought this is having some different murchana where it is having more arohana than avarohana with same beauty while going up as well as down.

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 24 Jan 2009, 10:32

Vidya,

I beg to respectfully differ on the point of vidvans maintaining version control. It will never work in practice for sure. Maintaining fidelity to the intent of the vaggeyakara is a non-negotiable. It can never be an excuse or license to Mandharify or Vishvambarify the raga Vamsavati. If you want to sing Mandhari sing the Vasudevachar composition etc. Dont touch "Bhaktavatsalam".Compose one yourselves or take some lyrics, without a tune, retune them up and sing. Thats appropriate in my humble opinion.

This so called license ( mischief??) has already cost us dear. Tarangini has all but been mauled and made a pale copy of Jhanjooti on a contrived point that D1 is difficult to render. Tarangini is dead. Long live Tarangini!!! and we contrive a new name- Sud(d)ha Tarangini for it. What is the authority for this? Also I am still unable to digest what is the big deal in singing that dhaivata in Maye, properly when one can sing correctly the Tarangini portion in Saanandam Kamalamanohari of Svati! Ardradesi of Dikshitar is perishing in our music system's Guantanamo. Can we justify the conception of modern Ardradesi on the ground that it is a variation in theme of Dikshitar? This melody is labelled of as Veenavadhini.

The addition of antaragandhara to Manji-another case in the point.Its clearly a latter day addition confined to one version. If its existence can be justified on the grounds of aesthetics, please go ahead a create a new raga - rename it & use for other krithis. Not for the Ramachandrena and Sri Sarasvati Hite. IMVHO, it gets confusing for listeners and students of music. In the absence of a formal system of regulating it (such as how HM gharanas improvise & are assumed to have that right) this will be a runaway train. If Manji with antara gandhara and Tarangini with D2 can be justified that would be the end of civilization ( to quote Sir Humphrey Appleby)!! I may sound cynical but do not mistake me for I see no reason for this "right" will without doubt be abused. My most humble prayer is please use the RTP's as your vehicle of manodharmam to indulge in experimentation! Maha vaidyanatha Iyer did it for sure.

My case in summary is this:
Let fidelity to authentic patantharam or textual/oral tradition or composer's intent be the the cornerstone. In modern legal system such as the Law of Copyright, this right is labelled and protected by the Law & Courts as Author's Moral Rights. A composer has the residual right called "Right of Integrity"whereby he can prevent by law distortion,mutilation & alteration of his work. Lets not dismember the legal rights of Dikshitar & Tyagaraja.

I am not holding ( individual) musicians/practiitoners responsible for this. This is a part of the larger dynamics of the musical eco system which is at work. The raga lists of Somanatha, venkatamakhi, Tulaja and Govinda indicate for us the constant purge being effected. Kakubha, Karnata Gauda, Desakshi, Karnataka Kapi et all are no where. They ruled the roost a few centuries ago.Samantha gave way to Naganandhini & Tilang, Bilahari has subsumed Desakshi and Dikshitar's Narayani.Vamsavati too has been eaten up by Mandhari, perhaps. The purge is a constant and it will go on.But in the process lets not recklessly license ourselves to indulge in changing the raga lakshana as conceptualized in the kriti & sacrifice our precious heirlooms at the altar of "manodharma". K V Ramachandran, the last of his breed, lamented on similar grounds in the 1940's in his MA Lec dem.

Also clearly our structures are ill-equipped to administer the raga systems and conventions. The MA Experts Committee used to do it in the distant past. Today we still endlessly debate Nayaki/Durbar/Rudrapriya/Karnataka Kapi or Abheri/Devagandhara ad nauseum without any conclusion or clarity. Every such meeting is simply adjourned after a round of recap'ing theory. The only beneficiaries of this exercise are the new bies to our music who get overawed watching /hearing it

.

I rest my case 'again'

Raj

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 24 Jan 2009, 18:23

raviraj wrote:My point was the D3 needs to be exactly intoned at its svarasthana. Glossing over the note might dilute the raga itself making it something else.

I just read this remark. While your caution against glossing over the note is well taken, D3, N3 (and other svaras for that matter) seem to take a higher value in the ascent than in the descent - hence the notion of an exact intonation at its svarasthAna may be dubious. For instance, the same R3 would be closer to G3 when it is followed by G3, and in descent would be farther away from G3 (closer to S).

Of course, there's a slippery slope between a lowered pitch in descent and the glossing over you mentioned, but I think it's worth pointing out. In nATa, to cite an example, the chatushrutiesque nature of some renditions of the descent RShabha are probably the result of this concept being applied too enthusiastically!

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 25 Jan 2009, 08:22

vainika:

When I said svarastana I meant the "the permissible range of audio frequencies for D3". And this permissible range is defined by ( or is a function of ) the gamaka invested on it. Adopting venkatamakhi's definition of a gamaka, I would like to know ,for example on the veena, if you play the D3 with the nokku ( as ornamented by SD in SSP), what would be the "range" of D3 in the D3N3 combo, I would hear . Based on that exercise we can probably normalize the result and arrive at a consensus or understanding driven by aesthetics as to what would be the acceptable rendering of D3. As an observer , I should confess that this would be another of Schrodinger' s cats

.

I do understand the subjectivity and cases for defining an acceptable prayoga. Why just for vivadi notes? One encounters different flavors of M1 for example in different ragas. Also I see all vivadi examples quoted are around R3. Because its the vivadhi note which is most encountered & dealt with in practice in vocal & instrumental music.When one gets to D3 I have a very limited set of practical examples to illustrate. I invite practitioners /experts to share samples of their D3N3 rendition which would help understand with "reasonable" precision and certainty on what would be an acceptable intonation of D3 for different scenarios.

Raj

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 25 Jan 2009, 08:25

arunk,

Excellent points for discussion. Suggest we move this to a separate thread titled - "Lakshana, Sampradaya & manodharma- Some Thoughts" . Do suggest a better title, if you can. I will share my thoughts on your considered point of view in that.

Mods - Can you please move Posts 22, 25, 26, 29 & 31 to a new thread ?

Raj

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 25 Jan 2009, 10:21

raviraj wrote:When I said svarastana I meant the "the permissible range of audio frequencies for D3"

ah okay. Then everything's fine.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Jan 2009, 19:23

sounds ok but I should warn you that I am already stretched beyond my abilities

Arun

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 28 Jan 2009, 18:55

raviraj wrote:Also I see all vivadi examples quoted are around R3. Because its the vivadhi note which is most encountered & dealt with in practice in vocal & instrumental music.When one gets to D3 I have a very limited set of practical examples to illustrate. I invite practitioners /experts to share samples of their D3N3 rendition which would help understand with "reasonable" precision and certainty on what would be an acceptable intonation of D3 for different scenarios.

I don't know if this fits your bill, but here's an excerpt of rasikapriyA by Smt. Kalpakam Swaminathan, recorded during class last weekend.

See http://www.archive.org/details/RasikapriyaOnVeena

I'll eventually add clips with hamsanAda, nItimatI and chaturangiNI...

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 29 Jan 2009, 07:32

Thanks Vainika. That would be awesome. Chaturangini - I think Ekamrathesvarena is available. Does Mami play Hamsandham with D3?

Raj

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 30 Jan 2009, 00:52

I have heard EkamranAthESwarENa in caturangiNi - by Smt Kalpagam S. That has a very strong hamsanAda flavor IMO

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Jan 2009, 01:31

I have also heard her sAmanta- viSvanAtEna. Is D3N3 prominent in that composition?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 30 Jan 2009, 01:43

Suji Ram wrote:I have also heard her sAmanta- viSvanAtEna. Is D3N3 prominent in that composition?

Not so much IMO -

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 30 Jan 2009, 09:03

Suji Ram wrote:I have also heard her sAmanta- viSvanAtEna. Is D3N3 prominent in that composition?

Not in her version, but she has the avarOhaNa down in her notes as S D3 P. Bereft of N3 in avarOhaNa, it sounds like S N2 P.

Confused? Stay tuned for a detailed essay on sAmanta by raviraj. Coming soon to a blog near you...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Jan 2009, 11:34

vainika wrote: Not in her version, but she has the avarOhaNa down in her notes as S D3 P. Bereft of N3 in avarOhaNa, it sounds like S N2 P.

Confused? Stay tuned for a detailed essay on sAmanta by raviraj. Coming soon to a blog near you...

I was so mesmerized by her rendition that I decided to learn the kriti. I am indeed confused around those notes. Will pay attention now that you mention SNP. There is only one other rendition by TMK available which is similar. I have been touching SND though!

raviraj · Post by **raviraj** » 04 Feb 2009, 13:37

Incorporating the feedback comments, a sequel to the first blog post has been published. The raga lakshanas of 2 allied ragas has also been covered. As always we look forward to feedback/suggestions.
http://guruguha.org/blog/

Raj

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Feb 2009, 19:13

raviraj wrote:arunk, Excellent points for discussion. Suggest we move this to a separate thread titled - "Lakshana, Sampradaya & manodharma- Some Thoughts" . Do suggest a better title, if you can. I will share my thoughts on your considered point of view in that.

Mods - Can you please move Posts 22, 25, 26, 29 & 31 to a new thread ?
Raj

Those posts are moved as requested. Due to the limitations of the forum software ( or due to my lack of knowledge of the features of the forum software ), I had to split these posts into two parts. Sorry about that. I have cross linked both parts so rasikas do not miss a part.
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... art-i.html
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... rt-ii.html